Restored Thread: Are Jats really brave?

[ndahiya]

Restored Thread: Are Jats really brave?

*** I've spent the better part of a Sunday evening sorting through this... Hope this suffices in getting the discussing back on track... Have tried to remove off-track posts... Nitin***

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde
Date: Apr 10, 2004 on 12:50 p.m.

Dear friends,

I have pondered my mind very often on the issue of Jats being brave. I agree that there have been some jats who have been really brave. However when I look at today's jats I do not think so. The basis of my belief is the real events which I wish to narate;

Every year in villages there are thefts of motors from tubewells. Many motors and the wires of transformers are stollen in just one night. There are tubewells in my area almost every 100 meters and they are all unattended in nights for the fear of these thugs who steal motors and transformer wires. How can a Jat along with his three brothers, three sons and many nephews be called brave when he can not face few thugs who steal his hard earned property? How do I agree that these Jat boys when recruited in Police, will protect public property, when they can not defend their own proprty from small time thives ?

I ventured to construct a farm house in the middle of sugarcane fields and about a km away from the village. Almost whole area discouraged me from doing so. They did their best to scare me by telling about kidnappings and all other problems of thefts and dacoity..Now that I have done it and we live there, most people are astonished as to how we live there...

I really wonder if today's jats are really brave...

Rajendra


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
R.C. Palsaniya
Date: Apr 10, 2004 on 04:22 p.m.

NO Doubt on Jats!
Jats r always Brave...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Col Virendra S Tavathia(Retd)
Date: Jul 02, 2004 on 01:47 a.m.

Dear Rajendra Ji,
Thanks for raising very interesting topic. Having commanded Jat and Rajput troops in actual operations, I had witnessed some very interesting situations. When my battalion was first inducted into insurgency operations, I found that majority of Rajput troops were more successful than our Jat boys. Some Jat boys failed to fire at enemy and showed cold feet. Some times they all (Rajputs and Jats alike) opened fire at a very long range giving away their position and letting the insurgents get away.
After some soul searching I deviced some golden rules for them to conduct these operations. This was followed by a highly motivational talk and detailed briefing prior to operations. The result was instant success and once they tasted success, there was no stopping. The crux is that it is always the fear of unknown that results in the act of cowardice. Bravery is a relative term. Traditionally, majority of our community does not believe in taking risks. It is because of this reason, most of our poeple prefer the jobs more than the business. Similarly even in farming, they grow more traditional crops, rather than going for high risk high income producing crops like vegetables. I am talking about majority, there are always some exceptions. So, to some extent, I do agree with you, that our people need to be more risk taking and thus brave.
The history of Indian armed forces is a proof our the bravery of our community. But why, our community has done so well there, is because we are more in numbers in armed forces as compared to any other community. Similar analogy can not be given of taking risks in business, as very less number of our community people opt for business option. I feel, we need to educate our younger generation, and motivate them to take more risks to inculcate the quality of bravery.

Virendra Tavathia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shobhit Deshwal
Date: Jul 30, 2004 on 07:25 a.m.

Rajendra ji
I feel pity on your way of judging bravery of Jats. I hope no one not even you will go bare handed in fields at night to face those thugs.And if it is a regular coustom of thugs in your area you can surely speak so of your area(simbhalka i guess!1) not jats in general. I hope you have forgotten the sacrifices given by jat boys on the advance fronts while fighting the intruders iduring many a wars fought by india, had it not been the bravery of jats no one would have send these people there to fight. Please think a little more about this.
Regards,
Shobhit Deshwal.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Amit Kumar
Date: Aug 29, 2004 on 06:46 p.m.

bhai rajendra,
i am amit and i was born in dhikoli, near baghpat, UP. I am in america now but i was in india until the age of 12. my village majority is jaat farmers. we had some land a tubewell on it. my father always slept at the tubewell at night. there were many attempts to steal the tubewell but none were successful. our tubewell was the only one within miles so it was fairly dangerous. our tubewell still is there and my dad still sleeps there. from reading your article, i do think that some jaat show lttle cowardice but there are many more who are brave like my father and do not show fear. we are a race who have become mild over decades of no action. but i believe that when time will come, the jaat of india are the ones that are going to save HINDUSTAN.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

**** Off Topic threads deleted... ****

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sushant
Date: Aug 31, 2004 on 08:00 a.m.

This is to the response of respected Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) . There is a Russian saying "Spakoyeystiviye Seelneekh, Agresia Slabukh"--"Calmness (or humbleness) is for the strong, (and) aggression is for the weak". Therefore the strength of our community has always been calmness and humility, and ofcourse respect for elders.
And as far as jats are concerned, I personally believe that today's generation's jats are braver than ever before as many of us are taking risks esp. in thier careers. Many of us are making forays into new ventures. I do not see any dearth in Jats' bravery.

I personally think that bravery can not be related to just war field


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Shailendra Singh Hooda
Date: Aug 31, 2004 on 11:29 a.m.

...One can't lump the whole Race and stamp them with cowardice on the basis of an isolated incident!...
Bravery and 'bull-headed fearlessness' walk a thin line between themselves and even though it is difficult to judge that particular incident mentioned here, I agree that when thinking rationally one is better off alive then losing not only your own life but of your dear ones, over some 'materialistic thing'!...anyways, moving on...

Jats probably are the most driven when it comes to standing up for the down trodden others and/or about something that they feel emotionally about. Emotion is the key word for them (Please note:It's NOT fear, safety and/or cowardice or even Bravery) There is a popular saying for Jats in Hindi," Pyaar se to inse kuch bhi karwa lo, per agar ulta sambhala to tumhe bhagwaan hi bachaaye!"...That in a nut shell explains the mentality. When seeing red, I don't think we really care about danger or fear...At that moment It's like Shiva himself playing a furious tandav. But when considering things coolly I strongly believe that we ARE capable of taking a rational decision not only for ourselves and for our dear ones too.

And then again which one of us can say that they have never sensed fear sometime or the other in life, but that does not brand one a Coward automatically. It is basic human instinct and self preservation is a reflex action not something that always come from cool rational thinking only.
For example: I have been brought up on numerous battle stories told to me by my father (Late Col. Rajendra Singh Hooda), and he being the man larger than life and a battle hardened wounded veteran, would tell me about the anxiety from anticipation before any dangerous operation; The thrill and fear of the unknown he could very well sense in the eyes of his troops even. He would then go on and recreate the moment and explain how that is an instinct that every human being goes thru just seconds away from an imperative possible life threatening moment...but how important that instinct was too to be able to think rationally and make those decisions on key battle startegies right there and then............and then how when it finally happens, the battle cry and the surge of human bodies in unison...not to mention the pumping of adrenalin of leading real men into battle would obscure every thing else and would be replaced only by fearlessness and even rage... each and every time, day in and day out on those relentless heights just minutes away from enemy positions...

I was only told about these stories and can never place myself in his or those brave men's shoes and/or even begin to understand how it must be like out there, but this I tell you...it taught me to understand that we Jats have been blessed with that unique ability to use our mental and physical supremacy to rise above any weird moments that life throws at us. We can no more be called more brawn than brains...we are what we can become not what others tell us we are expected to be.

It is not important to try and be something just because that is what is expected of you. That includes being able to shed off bull headedness and think with a rational mind when needed, not be coerced into doing a foolish act just to be able to regret it later and only doing it because anything less would not stand up to Jat ideals.

We need no ones certificate of how brave we are, cause we know and believe we can stand up as men among equals and hold our own when it comes to any other Race in this world.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ndahiya]

Part 2

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Varun Tomar
Date: Aug 31, 2004 on 02:02 p.m.

Many members who have contributed to this forum with their views have pointed out time and again that we are a community that has not made desirable progress as compared to some others. When we got independence not many communities cud claim to be upwordly mobile, but have u ever wondered why did we lag behind. There is almost no community support in jats. Now i want to make this categorical statement( i know i will draw falk from the moral police here) a large no. of those successful jats somehow feel shy of their rural roots. Expecting community support is a very big thing,in many cases they don't even help their close kins. There are such examples and we all know abt many of them but it won't surprise me if somebody on this forum tries to refute me on this.
There was nothing wrong in Mr Rajendra's sharing his experience, but the post was titled are jats really brave?? what did he try to prove with that
as far as col. tevathia's comments if i remember correctly he said that jat boys sometimes had the fear of unknown( which was relatively less in rajput boys) but he also added once that fear was removed with able leadership they proved to be fine soldiers. i don't see anything wrong with that, he was being honest.
but rajendra ji's post was trite and a poor attempt at passing a judgement on a entire race's bravery.
Sir if jats are cowards who in ur opinion are brave people. If u think people who don't sleep at their farms to proetect the motors are cowards, please think again they are the same people who often irrigate their fields during night, i just wonder how wud u explain how does their fear vanish then.u can't expect somebody to leave the comfort of home everyday to protect motors, etc. which they may not be able to do, and if u like to sleep at ur farm and try to boast being brave think again it might not be the case, u must have built a secure farmhouse( may be u r financially well off) which a normal farmer may not be able to do, and may be u have some arms as a security at ur farmhouse. if u don't have any arms please don't spread the word, otherwise expect the burglers anytime.
and Ms sujata there was something more to ur post that was very offensive. u commented about the poor language skills of Mr Tomar. and i have read quite a few of ur posts and u more often than not take a very moralistic ground on issues which sometimes sound like a sermon. how cud u advise a person to be embarrassed of his gramatical errors. Now u can judge for urself how that speaks of u as a person.
if u are older than us or may be more successful or more educated please stop preaching us, that is what smacks of hypocrisy... that is the attitude with which many so called successful jats in their 40s-60s treat their rural brothers and cousins.
i just want to tell u don't preach we will prefer remaining gawaar, we will not be embarrassed about our language skills as long as u will keep treating people with a condescending attitude.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde
Date: Aug 31, 2004 on 03:51 p.m.


Dear Mr Varun Tomar,
You have raised many issues in your latest post. If you read many of my posts, I too have written on many of these topics. Let me answer one by one;

1. Jats and community feeling: I 100% agree with you that we jats rarely support each other by our actions except paying lip service when it comes to Jat honour. Again there are exceptions where few Jats have helped other Jats. This is exactly was the moral of my original post under this heading that Jats do not unite as a group to face these thugs who steal their hard earned property.

2. Please trust me, I never join the discussions behind the wall of my age. This is not the first time that I have come under fire from younger people. This has happend in past also at few occasions. One can never prove his/ her point either by taking protection behind the wall of age or by making use of agressive and filthy language. One has to argue based upon facts and figures and not under charged emotions.

3. If you all read my original post under this thread, I very clearly mentioned that there have been and there are jats who are brave by all standards. What really concerns me is the state of affair in our society as a whole. Bravery of few people does not make society great. Common Jat has to face the chellenge of time. One must practice what one wants to preach.

4. Now let us come to the way how Mr Satinder Tomar expressed himself. I am not at all disturbed by his outbursts. He being a young man, has to go a long way in learning the art of communication in public as I can see. If not now, I am sure he will realise this later on in life hard way.

5. I have read few posts from some of you yonger brigade about new definitions of bravery where going to far away places for business etc is also bravery. If that be the case then Banias must be much more brave as they have been going around whole world for business for a very very long time. Let us stick to the definition of bravery as defined by accepted institutions and not twist its meaning to suit few.

6. In my view its the total strength (both physical and mental) which tilts the results and decids if the act was a bravery or stupidity. IF ONE CAN NOT FACE FEW OUTSIDERS OR EVEN LOCAL THUGS IN ITS OWN FORT, I can never call that person or that community brave. taking excuses and hiding in the inner room of the house does not make one brave.

High time we learn how to accept our shortcomings and correct them individually and collectively. However, if one thinks that he and his whole community is great and there is no room for improvement and taking health criticisms, I have nothing to add further.

regards
Rajendra

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Budh Nashier
Date: Sep 01, 2004 on 06:48 p.m.


Very good and positive discussion. Keep it up.

Brave or Courageous are synonymous

Definition:

having mental or moral strength to venture, persevere and withstand danger, fear, pain or difficulty.
having mental or moral strength to resist opposition or hardship.
having an ingrained capacity for meeting strain or difficulty with resilience.
having a quality of temperament enabling one to hold one’s own or keep up one’s morale when opposed or threatened
having firm determination to achieve one’s ends; unwilling to admit defeat.

So there you have it.

N. B. With this standard and universally accepted definition, those who leave home and/or other comfort to venture new horizons are certainly brave!


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd)
Date: Sep 02, 2004 on 01:31 a.m.


Pardon me but I am not going to talk about the bravery of the soldiers of the Armed Forces. They are supposed to be brave because it is their job to be brave. Let me give you some examples of bravery as truthfully as I can give. Pure personal experiences. I am fully conscious of what I am writing.

1. Seeing my grandmother getting up late at night and make 'rotis' for guests on a 'Chulha'. Seeing her eyes water due to smoke and still be able to smile was bravery.

2. Seeing my mother share half the load of an agricultural household and do single handedly what five other 'Chachis' would do was guts and bravery. She is 90 today and still as brave.

3. Seeing my father and uncle share the load of a joint family that had a total of 84 people, young and old, without cribbing. They had no government jobs and yet could help others in achieveing their dreams. No wonder the family gave the village the first male and female graduate, lawyer, police officer, Army Officer etc.

4. Going and studying far away from home was bravery indeed, more so when for almost one year one could not even communicate because I spoke JAATU and they spoke Kannad.

5. Studying in JAT College, Sonepat during 'Emergency' was bravery of the highest order. Seeing fellow students struggle with Shakespeare was tragedy but seeing them pronounce 'Cesario' as 'Kesari' and yet managing to graduate was bravery.

6. Getting Rs 50/- a month as pocket money and yet regularly watching movies in Chanakya Theatre, New Delhi was bravery, because I used to travel without ticket from Sonepat to Sabzi Mandi and then walk up to Chanakya Theatre. Yes, it is about 15 KMS if not more.

7. Seeing my elder cousin eager to run errands for the elderly especially when at the end of a hard days work thay would all sit on 'Charpoys' and chat. Cousin brother would be sitting and dozing because of tiredness, but on one indication from the elderly he would quickly run upstairs and 'bharo the chillum'. That was bravery.

I can go on and on but I am sure I have been able to drive home the point about bravery. It is so easy to say and comment but difficult to endure. The earlier generation gave us the best they could. Hopefully the young generation of today would achieve greater heights and make their forefathers proud. Truly speaking I don't think I am capable of making the kind of sacrifices that were made by my parents.

Let us not pick up one sentence written by a member and misunderstand the whole issue. I am sure the older generation too looks forward to greater successes from the younger generation. The younger generation has no choice but to succeed. I keep telling my only child, a 19 year old son, that I have all the 'Hopes' from him but 'No Expectations'. If he can look after himself, find happiness in what he is doing, care for his younger cousins, respect his elders, not forget his roots, have few friends whom he can trust and be trusted, love his wife (if and when he is married) and do something for the community, I think he would have been lived life well.

Regards,

JS Malik


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sandeep Balyan
Date: Sep 02, 2004 on 02:01 a.m.


This thread is moving great ... and injected with more interest by a open challenge by Ch. Rajenderjee .
I agree we should respect elders, same time i think satender has good stand on jat bravery.

Ch Rajender jee Iam also from Muzzafarnagar .....

I think "In dino mai Khet pe ghar bana ke rahana is itself a bravery, you are doing same and we know that you are a jat.....

So I can say this that "Jats are Brave", dont u think so ? as u are a jat,living in khet and you are brave.

There is no comparison in age factor.... As you find good and bad in all ages and title of this thread is about jat bravery not about age breakups.

Regarding Baniya ...Ch rajender jee ...... They are born business man ...and we are born farmer. C if a baniya has a shop and his sons wants to get separated they make two shops i.e. increase in number.... aur hamare yaha lands become half ... means baniya alag bhi hota hai to karobar badhta hai ...aur jat alag hota hai to Zameen ghat jati hai ........ But now world is changing …

If u had gone through a thread by "Budh Nashier regarding "INDIABULLS" Young jat business man " it will make you clear that if we get opportunity we can do more good than baniya "Time is changing" . We have more confidence and skills than baniya .......

Do you think Navin Gulia (from jatland) is not a brave ex Army Young man ? I found him and his bravery untouchable in comparison with any rajput or other caste person.
He makes me proud to be a jat. Really ....... Brave young man.

Bravery does not mean to me "fighting for motor" or killing some one. Any "MLANG IRESPECTIVE OF CAST ” can do this work, it is not required that he should be brave.

Ch Rajender jee I will love to know general definition of bravery from you i.e. when do you think a person or caste is brave?

I found these lines in a website about jats

"The late Colonel Hoshiar Singh PVC, winner of the highest military
award, the Param Vir Chakra came from a Jat family of Haryana.
The Jat regions in India are among the most prosperous on a per-capita basis.
Today, many Jats are well read and some occupy high positions in academic and technical arenas.
Conservative by nature, the Jats rarely marry people from other ethnic groups.
Great pride is placed in their ancestry.
"
“Jats are a brave, hardworking and
Independent minded people. Primarily agriculturists, the Jats led a fairly autonomous political life. As per the Varna (Caste) system, the Jats are Kshatriyas or the warrior class. Overall, the Jats have a very good self image and they are a proud people. 'Men may come and men may go,
but I go on forever,' is a well known Jat proverb. They are brave, hardworking people who possess both the desire
and ability to rule. It has been said that no Jat wants to be ruled. Rather, he desires to have power over a group,
if not over an area.”


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[ndahiya]

Part 3

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Rajendra Kumar Kalkhunde
Date: Sep 02, 2004 on 03:15 a.m.

Dear Sandeep and Sanjeev,
Running the risk for further ridicule and being laughed at by some of you or probably many of you, I would still stick to my points with full conviction and submit the following to support my points;

1. I am not sure how many of you know that till 2-3 generations back a large number of banias were involved predominently in agriculture with very large land holdings. Pardon my saying, many of our forefathers were nothing but humble cultivators in the fields of some of these big Zamindaars. A large number of our forefathers got land rights with the abolishon of Zamindari. I have witnessed the last phase of transition of banias from agriculture to total business.

2. Please don't think that I am ridiculing my own people and trying to glorifying others. However, I have to stick by facts and not emotions. Like Jats there have been scores of other people not traditionally known for so called bravery. Let me freshen up you guys memory and if you know any parallel, please let me know;
a. Lala Lajpat Rai led the procession and was beaten up by Lathis...
b. The Army Chief of Ibrahim Lodhi was a Bania called Hemu kana.

I fully know that we Jats had a much larger share of brave people. However, I still don't accept that Jats in villages who are incapable of protecting their properties can be called brave by any definitions.

2. Now let us come to the change in profession in a bit more detail. Yes I agree that we Jats have made significant progress in last 50 years. However, when we compare ourselves with many other similar groups, we are hardly seeming to be catching up. Our numbers in many important professions are just insignificant. Where our Jat Sikh brothers, whom this site never considers as their part, reached 100 years back, we are just starting to reach those places. If you look at the number of percentage of Jat boys making it to the top in many new professions, its really very small still. Please pull out the UPSC results for IAS and other services and you will know the figures.

There have been a large number of Harijans also who made exteremely significant sacrifices and have become the mascots for downtroden. Certainly BR Ambedkar was one of them. Names of Babu Jagjvan Ram and many others can not be ignored. Traditionally we Jats never accept their contributions and I am fully aware of that.

I know this thread will continue receiving further stuff and I will get more opportunities to have my say. However let me close this with a small joke on a Jat from Baoli (Tomar Jat by coincidence and not by design...hahahah). This is how the joke goes;

" There was this one Jat from Baoli who just got married. Every evening when he comes to his home, he would ask his wife that has she ever seen a great man like him. His poor wife would answer that No..This continued for quite some time and the poor girl had no answer. In the absence of any answer that girl started remaining some what depressed. After few months she went to her parents place. Seeing her depression her mother asked the reason. The girl told the entire storry. On that the mother advised her that the next time if he asks the same question, just answer him that, " Mard ko mard bahutere, Ghar nahi to bahar bahutere"..Girl went back to sasuraal and told her husband exactly the same as her mother told. After that this Guy never asked her that question..."

So moral of my small story on our great Baoli Jat is that please look outside and then compare sector by sector where we stand vice verse other communities..Its no use getting emotional. There are some naked facts and high time we learn how to accept them..

Regards
Rajendra



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sandeep Balyan
Date: Sep 02, 2004 on 05:52 a.m.


Dear Rajendra Jee,
I am really impressed on the way u r standing on your word/view as it too reflect jat attitude showing quality of firmness in decission, one thing more i can say no one is laughing on anyone as this is a discussion and is open for all thougths and view, but yes there should be no personal comments.

Let us make discussion healthy.

Coming to sector wise comparision please compare population of Jats with baniya or any other caste those occupy high numbers of seats in IAS or any other Prestigious Services.

We should also compare .... Infrastucture we have i.e. School and colleges near to jat dominated areas ( as these are the areas which are moslty ignored by any political party for development ) , as much as I know most of them are agricultural degree colleges ....
and yes in this sector we can compare ...... by any other caste in ratio of population and share we have.

Rajendra Jee I willl love if you can write any quality you think jat have in u r next message.

Regards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[rkumar]

Sandeep Balyan
Date: Sep 02, 2004 on 05:52 a.m.


Dear Rajendra Jee,
I am really impressed on the way u r standing on your word/view as it too reflect jat attitude showing quality of firmness in decission, one thing more i can say no one is laughing on anyone as this is a discussion and is open for all thougths and view, but yes there should be no personal comments.

Let us make discussion healthy.

Coming to sector wise comparision please compare population of Jats with baniya or any other caste those occupy high numbers of seats in IAS or any other Prestigious Services.

We should also compare .... Infrastucture we have i.e. School and colleges near to jat dominated areas ( as these are the areas which are moslty ignored by any political party for development ) , as much as I know most of them are agricultural degree colleges ....
and yes in this sector we can compare ...... by any other caste in ratio of population and share we have.

Rajendra Jee I willl love if you can write any quality you think jat have in u r next message.

Regards
.................................................. .....
Dear Sandeep,

Jats have many great qualities. The most universal are;

1. Hard working
2. Honest
3. Conscious of self pride

What majority of Jats lack are, tacts, explrong into unknown territories, taking criticism lightly and positively, sense of support for each other at local level, lack of farsightedness.

May be I have missed few under both the above catagories. What jats need the most today, is coopration among themselves.

Rajendra