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February 22nd, 2001, 01:07 AM
Hi!

I'd like to look at 2 aspects here.

one. in haryana, Jats are abt 25% of the population. and 9% of the government jobs. education standards are abysimal.

two. in '79 and again in '90, the Jats (and their leaders) refused to be included for reservation, despite being in a (political)position to do so. by 99 however, the need was being felt.

while getting reservation, the social standing suffers. however, the additional jobs would be very welcome.

its a difficult call, but i do think that overall, it is needed for now.

what do the others think ??

regards
nitin

February 22nd, 2001, 01:08 AM
It is wrong to assume that getting reservation is a sure way to achieve anything substantial for a particular community. The Jats in rural areas realizing that they have no future in agriculture were slowly but surely moving on to join the services sector as Profeesionals. What reservation will do now is to bring down the morale that was slowly being built up.

February 22nd, 2001, 01:11 AM
Let's be practical, don't attach any stigma/ego with the word 'reservation'. Majority of the Jat community lives in poor conditions. Travel to some villages, the financial condition and the facilities/opportunities available to those poor families and one will fell the dire need of reservation to them for their upliftment. Yes, i, for a while, subscribeto the EGOISTIC declaration that we don't NEED reservation, but this is one instance where our ego, of which we are very proud of, can be harmful in a pragmatic sense. Historically, jats have always been exploited( by other cunny communities) by provoking them( i have heared during my chilhood in my village , some non-jat saying to a jat ' hey its question of your EGO' ,and the jat going brainwashed after that) to the extent that they stop seeing the rationale behind any activity and just stop seeing beyond ego.
So let's be practical, not emotional, in this matter. See how much other communities, like Yadavs, have prospered because of reservation.
Some well to do Jats like us do not need reservation, but our poor brothers living in villages do need reservation.
--Cheers!
_Sindhu

February 22nd, 2001, 01:12 AM
Hi all,

When i meant morale i meant the feeling that only education can be a real channel to access some prosperity. People in the villages realizing that there is no future in agriculture wanted their kids to study hard and do well.(This I noticed when I went to my native village, there is a distinct shift of attitude). What reservation will do is to assure the children a job that's all. They are not gonna achieve anything. Realizing that anyway they will be working as a peon.

February 22nd, 2001, 01:12 AM
Reservation is just a mean to offset the difference between opportunities levels available to the poors ( specially the villagers) and the previledged ones; and NOT a mean to safeguard a peon's job. To say otherwise, even a peon's job is a better option for someone who will otherwise is running from piller to post to get two ends meal.
Look at the Yadavs, see the change the community's overall economic status. They are not just PEONS!
And morale has nothing to do with reservation. If any then the reservation should lift the morale as it provides a better opportunity to reach higher levels.

-Rajesh Sindhu

February 22nd, 2001, 01:14 AM
may be in rajasthan reservation might be actually required , where the jats are inhabiting an area with low fertility and irrigation potential.

In haryana, the state that the community is in is our own doing. we have gone down in the last ten-fifteen years and have no one to blame but ourselves.
It will be an escapist tendency were we to ask for reservation in haryana. it would be better if the community could act in a united manner and work for development, get it out of the goverenment; rather than fighting for reservation.
what we need is an educated and mature leader, whom the public supports.

February 22nd, 2001, 01:17 AM
i know that reservation gives jobs ,but how many? either give us reservation like SC/ST which really makes difference..OBC reservation is just for name sake ,which really hurts your ego.What u think just giving reservation will work ..no way.Try to think like jat sikhs..they r also jats but where they r now because they really worked hard.They dont need reservation.
They dont want to leave there farms and go out for jobs.I have seen jats in cities also they r from well to do families but there childreen r spoiled and what ever there parents did to bring the family up is smashed by them.
reservation is not going to solve this problem.
see punjabis they came from pakistan and where they r now,they were the people who worked in our field but see where r they now and where we have led ourselves to.
BEST SOLUTION IS STUDY AND COME TO USA,canada,australia ,england like gujratis and sardars.
This is the only solution.

February 22nd, 2001, 01:20 AM
what is reservation.... ,
its kind of a facility in ur home..in ur reach ,which u can use if u need to ... if u donot want, u r most welcome NOT to use it ....but it shld be in ur approach so that anyone , who needs , gets this facility.

how many of us have said no to reservation till now....what ever we got...what about domicile reservation , for getting admissions in professional colleges , we all had our state domicile ready ....what is this ..its reservation for you, since u r state resident.

why we all used domicile reservation , we would have welcomed some more competetion by writing that i m r not from delhi or haryana, or UP...
why u did , and now after getting that reservation and reaching to this point , we r thinking that is reservation required ??

is there anyone , who has gone the harder way if he/she had a choice ,till now in life...

what about Mr Devi Lal , writing off all the bank loans for farmers, that is a reservation since u r incapable to repay the loan ..., this was welcomed open heartedly , by everyone in haryana....
tell me name of any person , who said no to that favor....and practically paid back the money to bank even when his loan was paid off by govt......

to my beleif , whoever has used reservation at any point in life looses his right to decide that whether this is good for others or not....

i welcome someone telling me that , reservation did this harm to him....please tell me , if you have these words...if no then do something practical for our people, they r really in bad shape as of now..

February 22nd, 2001, 01:20 AM
Jats as a caste is high in the social ladder but in the economic aspect it is a backward class, especially in the states of Delhi, Rajasthan,Jammu,Uttranchal.
Politically and economically we have had to fight our own battles and OBC reservation would change that as it has done for other classes similar to ours.

February 22nd, 2001, 01:21 AM
I think the caste based reservation is one of the biggest misfortune of this country. I see no sense at all in this. how the hell can you give priviledge to someone just because he's born in X caste, no matter he may be filty rich and has all the means and amenities in this world. We can not abolish caste system at all from India but we should try to lessen the divide we have between them in order for our country to flourish and reservation is currently the biggest mean of dividing them further.

Who can forget the riots after mandal commission recommendations were implemented. That step alone caused so much hatred for each other among hindus and gave rise to stupid leaders like Laloo, Mulayam singh, Mayawati etc etc.

There can be reservation based on some other criteris like household income. There can be reservation in education to provide equal opportunities to those who cannot afford it but after that jobs should be given on merit. One can realize the pain of those students who do all the hard work but are denied just because they are from upper castes. It's same as giving jobs taking bribes, or bacause someone is someone's kin.

Again, Caste based revervation is as bad for our society as corruption, dowry etc. I oppose it in principle. I would like to see it abolished completely. Now, till its there whether Jats should be included, maybe yes, in particular regions like rajasthan.

But before that I think Jats have to change themselves. We all know the kind of emphasis given to education in rural Jat families. We remain stuck to agriculture or maximum doing small businesses in villages. Otherwise, I think Jats had been quiet well to do in areas like haryana, Delhi, western U.P. But if you want to feed all your generations on no matter how big the piece of land you have (which most jats had), it's impossible.

February 22nd, 2001, 01:22 AM
reservation itself is bad....
caste based resevation is bad.....
caste based reservation is dividing the country...
reservation is spreading hatred...
caste system should be abolished ....
equal opportunities should be provided to everyone....
economical inequality should be abolished...
....
....
....
i have been hearing these slogans since my childhood, on every plateform.
But i have also been seeing one more thing: the reservation, specially the caste based reservation, is increasing since my childhood.

So where is the fact in these contradictions? what has happened in reality ??? Everyone agrees to be against reservation in 'principle'. But who the hell cares about principles in Indian politics. Cleverer and practical people are enjoying the undue benefits of reservation; and those who still dream about 'principles' and 'idealism' are suffering, getting exploited day by day. Its a practical world, not a ideal world; and lets be practical. Survival of the most realistic is mantra in contemporary India. Talks about principles look good only in books, not in real life of today's indian society.
And to be realistic, i do support the reservation of jats as long as caste reservation is prevalent in India. And i will be against the reservation when no one else is enjoying it. And of course why should jats take unrealistic stand of opposing it when other castes are enjoying it.

--sindhu

February 22nd, 2001, 01:23 AM
in an ideal world, we would not need reservation. but here we have a situation where people around us get the benefit, very often when they do not deserve to, while we take the moral high ground and get nowhere.

most of us discussing here have done fairly well for ourselves. but look back in the villages and the situation is pathetic. with the land holdings as tiny as they are, nothing more than survival is possible.

if i had the option to utilize reservation, i would reject it (for myself) simply coz i do not deserve/need it. but if someone who is finding it diff to support a family needs reservation, should we be sitting here and denying him/her that opportunity ??

talk of 'social standing' and the kind makes sense only when the stomach is not hungry. today, the rural situation is deriorating pretty bad and if reservation is needed to get things on track, it should be welcomed.

regards
nitin

February 22nd, 2001, 01:24 AM
The only thing I wanted to highlight is the criteria for having reservation i.e. 'CASTE' that makes no sense to me.

But again, I know caste based reservation is there in first place because of these stupid politicians who can do any harm to the society till they get votes. and they are doing this because they know that in India nothing appeals to masses more than 'religion' and 'caste'... not the meaningless words like 'country', 'society' or 'equality' etc etc... which is again unfortunate. How can it help those who struggle everyday for their survival, for whom getting bread two times a day is the only goal of life....... is still not clear to me. have reservation in education, provide means of living, again to poors n not castes

I know all that is dream. it's true that since we do not have any control about abolishing this system and there are people getting undue advantage of it, so we must as well get the reservation for jats too. I agree with that.........

but even then, atleast we can think, dream and have an opinion that this system (caste-based reservation) is stupid in itself. cuz it's the opinion of people and particularly the educated ones that makes difference ...... may not be now... maybe in future.

February 22nd, 2001, 01:25 AM
I am from jaipur and i feel that the OBC status is just a political lollipop with no real benefits.
Real progress depends only on our hard work

February 22nd, 2001, 01:26 AM
the result of the survey (about reservation for the jats) with over one hundred votes is close to 60% in favor and 40% against...

regards
nitin

abhishek
March 20th, 2001, 09:21 AM
well well ......
RESERVATION.... why do we need it?
for decades we denounced it like anything. Why should accept a flawed ideology coz of some individual incompetency.
No of government jobs is not index of a commmunity's deveopment... and if that was the case then we got pretty good no. of jats in army(thatz a govt. job i guess)
What is reqd. is to go for education thatz the panacea for jats not the RESERVATION.... if we r good NOBODY can STOP us.
In any case we look what reservation has done to all those low castes...... well those were downtrodden are still there only select few r reaping benefits

vivek
March 26th, 2001, 11:21 PM
I feel reservation at college and occupational level is a bad idea for any castes, however there may be merits in introducing it at high school and secondary levels

Reservation has time and again lead to lower standards and reliance on support. If you keep on telling a healthy boy, that he needs help, pretty soon he starts believing it and soon he starts to give minimal effort.

That being said, reservation is fact of life in India. I believe Jats should utilize whatever help is handed to them considering the lack of education and emphasis on it by village jats. If a change is to happen this way of thinking has to go.

Here is what we up against. My mother started a school in Aligarh to educate jats and local population. She noticed that one fairly smart boy stopped coming to class. She went to his father to inquire the matter. The father replied "Kyo tang karti hai, agar madad karni hai to bus certiphikate de de". How can the boy suceed when the father demphasizes education. With this kind of impetus the boy has already failed (imo).

raj2rif
April 14th, 2001, 01:14 AM
Dear Sir,
It is nice to read so many diverse yet pertinent views on the subject. I personally feel that in a good society any kind of reservation is bad. It is not the question of getting jobs or for that matter admissions in the professional institutions, the reservation gives edge to incompetent over competent. It also kills the competitive instinct in the person given reservation as he knows he can get it without working for it.
If reservation was the remedy that all SC/ST would have been uplifted by now. It was perceived at the time of independence that a 10 year reservation for the down trodden would be sufficient to bring them up to the main stream. However successive governments played this card to get the vote bank of those given reservation.
We as a community must oppose all kind of reservation. Instead we must propagate the financial help to the people who can not afford the education and that to with the obligation of the person helped to return that amount with interest to help the another needy person. It is only in this manner the community as well as the entire nation can be helped. Unless we all raise our voice together against all kind of reservation the nation will continue to suffer and people will keep exploiting the communities. We must educate every body that reservation makes you dependent and lazy. So let us do away with it once for all. There is no loss of morale if one gets it however. The loss of morale is in telling lies, stealing and doing all unlawful things.
Thanks
Sincerely
Col(Retd) Virendra Tavathia

sumit
August 2nd, 2001, 12:20 AM
Hi,
I have just joined this forum. So let me give a brief introduction. I am from shahibabad a village in outer delhi. Graduated from Delhi College of Engineering, worked for one year and am doing my MS at Univ of Texas, Austin.
I personally agree with Col Virendra that reservation kills competition and reservation has never uplifted any community or caste. The most well off castes are those who have worked hard. I don't know much but from my little experience I feel that Jats in Delhi can never complain of being socially backward. Right after India's independence and even before that they had easy access to highest level of education. How come the punjabis and baniyas flourished as a prosperous community by making use of the same opportunities. OBC status would do no good to the masses as a whole, it will again be the selected few who would enjoy the riches. What is needed is change in attitude. I can sight you zillion cases where having sold there land for millions Jats in Delhi are still uneducated and socially backward. We are a hard working stock and I am proud for that. What we need is change in attitude.

Cheers,
Sumit

scsheorayan
August 2nd, 2001, 04:43 AM
Does not really matter either way. It is interesting to read diverging views on the subject here is mine;

Reservation is like a handicap race, disadvantaged one gets a few meters lead. In order to win the race he still has to run fast enough so as to maintain some of the lead. Examples are seen when you start 2 boys of different ages on a race say one is 5 year old and the other is 7 year old. So the 5 year old is given 5 step lead in a say 50 meter race. But if the 7 year old is fast enough he will overtake him before the half mark. Otherwise the young one wins and feel happy about it. From moral prospective it is a fairer system than if both of them started from the same point.

How pertinent is this philosophy in real life is debatable. It is not a race but question of survival.In this race it is not so much important as to how fast one is running but in which direction he/she is going. If We can keep going in the right direction sooner or later we hope to reach there. But if the direction is wrong no matter where we are and how fast we go we end up in the wrong place. What we need is progressive thinking combined with simple strong Jat spirit rest is all fluff. Hope all of us can instill that spirit in our children and those with whom we come across in real life.

"Winner never complains and complainer never wins"

Choice is yours whether you want to be a winner or a complainer.

Best of luck in what ever you do whether it is winning or complaining personally I admire winners and pity whingers.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan

ajit
August 2nd, 2001, 07:20 AM
it is not that easy. the quotes sound good but real life is not that perfect. winners complain and complainers win all the time. it has always been like that. people walk over you take advantage of you even though you may be right and many times there is nothing you can do. look at politicians. they complain and they win. it is win at all cost no matter what type of world. there is no righteousness. hook or by crook. and it has alwyas been like that.

ram
August 15th, 2001, 09:23 PM
We do need reservation in Haryana, UP and in Punjab. There are atleast 12 Million of us out there but look at our representation. As Agricultural Land is shrinking, We need to be more in Goverment positions, specially the policy making. Look at all these Brahman, Bania and Punjabis. Our people should be moving to USA, UK, AUST and other Countries and we should be helping those like we Jats help each other in Army.

scsheorayan
August 16th, 2001, 04:26 AM
Ajit Singh (Aug 01, 2001 09:50 p.m.):
it is not that easy. the quotes sound good but real life is not that perfect. winners complain and complainers win all the time. it has always been like that. people walk over you take advantage of you even though you may be right and many times there is nothing you can do. look at politicians. they complain and they win. it is win at all cost no matter what type of world. there is no righteousness. hook or by crook. and it has alwyas been like that.

Dear Ajit,
Agree with you that We do not live in a perfect world. But it is also true that to achieve any thing you do require focus and determination. When people take to complaining their focus is more on finding faults than doing any thing constructive. It is not surprising that the country is caught up in a quick fix quick sand. There are no easy solutions. But to achieve any thing you do have to make an effort. Effort alone is not enough ofcourse other things also contribute to success or failure of a task. We need to unite and focus on really important issues, politics is only one of them. With our numbers in a united mode we will be in a position to negotiate the best possible deal. There is a saying that "there are too many chiefs and not enough Indians" nothing gets done. In our case probably "there are too many Indians and not enough Chiefs".

By the way politicians do not really complain, those are crocodile tears they shed for the benefit of public, gain their sympathy and vote. Complaining is left to voters while they are busy winning. You may not agree on this point but I think good and bad people are in every profession. However every profession has influence on the personality of individual. Politicians profession is that they have to deal with public and tell them what will get them vote. In half a century if voter did not understand this simple logic then he deserves what he gets. If we deserve better we will get better. But how ?
That is a million dollar question. Certainly not by complaining.

Best Regards!
Shubha Chand Sheorayan

scsheorayan
August 16th, 2001, 05:19 AM
Ram K. Hooda (Aug 15, 2001 11:53 a.m.):
We do need reservation in Haryana, UP and in Punjab. There are atleast 12 Million of us out there but look at our representation. As Agricultural Land is shrinking, We need to be more in Goverment positions, specially the policy making. Look at all these Brahman, Bania and Punjabis. Our people should be moving to USA, UK, AUST and other Countries and we should be helping those like we Jats help each other in Army.

My Dear Ram,

12 in 1000 is not a significant number,thus it is unlikely that it is going to happen in the near future unless those 12 say the same thing. Even when those 12 say the same thing it should not be reservation, because there are simply not enough jobs in the Government. The emphasis must be on Development of those 12 to a level when they can compete globally. As you know some of our Jat kids are doing very well but it is only a small minority.Not even 1 in 12. You have my full and unconditional agreement when you talk about supporting each other. We all must support each other whether it is a Jat or an Indian when overseas. The charity begins at home so let us do some thing constructive. Through this website itself we can provide assistance and information to those who need it. Concentrate on one step at a time and soon we will be making progress.

Best Wishes.

Shubha Chand Sheorayan

vinoddhaaka
March 22nd, 2002, 03:33 PM
Well friends its a really debatable question. Obiviously the people who are search of jobs will like reservation. But lets take a pragmatic view of things by asking ourselves some questions.
Ch.Chottu Ram lived and died to prove that we are a superior caste and if he was alive today he would have opposed it and would have preferred to die then live as a person under reservation. Those who have read book by Nonika Datta " Forming an identity : a social history of jats " can appreciate it. Arya Samjist Movement could get acceptability among jats because people like Maharshi Dayanand Saraswati distributed ritual cotton thread to sell Arya Samaj among jats to convey that jats are equivalent to Brahmins.
But let think Will it label us as low caste in Hindu caste structure which is an amorphous concept ?
Yes it will lower our status.
Let assume we still ask for reservation and it is accepted. Will it really benefit Jats in terms of Jobs ?
Answer is NO when seen in the context of Indian Economic policies pursued in 90s by all in the Indian political specturm left or right. Benefit of reservation means only govt. jobs. But sadly the size of governments whether its central or state governments is dwindling day by day and will continue to move in that direction. In a liberalised climate lot of activites which were preserve of state are being shifted to non governmental sector where reservation does not matter. So even number of jobs in government will be very less in number in coming years. Hence the real benefit in terms of number may be insignificant.
So better option will be not to ask for reservation but continue the task of social,educattional and economic development of jat community and help youth make a wider choice in terms of career . Small sops of reservation will degrade jat community as whole and will give insignificant number of jobs to jat youth

ranjitjat
March 23rd, 2002, 01:55 AM
RESERVATION-MUST.HOW TO GET IT??????????
Dear friend since you started this topic.jats got the reservation in Rajshthan, up, mp,Delhi etc how to get it in haryana ,panjab.hp. J&k etc /???????????????????
reservation is going to stay for long time. weather we like it or not, for or against. All jats must get it to survive, no other way

saurabhsaharan
March 23rd, 2002, 05:34 AM
I strongly support any move that could possibly lead to the betterment of my community, and reservation for Jats would most certainly do it. If other less deserving people are benefitting from it, why not Jats.
I know that its not going to be like SC/ST reservation and the number of Jats actually benefitting from it might not be large, but
even if one Jat lands in a good position because of reservation, think about how many other Jat brethrens can get help from that one person.

ajaykumar
March 23rd, 2002, 10:18 PM
Dear Jat Brothers and Sisters,
Rise up and accept the challenge to move up in the society. Let's not rely on reservations or some other back doors to realize our goals. We are a coomunity with high self esteem and will-power. We don't want and should not want anybody's mercy to find our place in the society. We must not loose our self respect in any case.

I am against cast-based reservation.
Best Regards,

abhishek
March 25th, 2002, 02:22 PM
hi everybody
well it is very easy to say that reservation
is not required while sitting in ac rooms working in front of a sleek workstation.
But for the jat youths armed with college degree and out in the job market which is
ruthless it is like 'to be or not to be'.
We often complain of increasing participation of jat youth but dare we look at the reasons behibd it.
And no I am not talking about jobs of kind "PEON" types .... I am talking jobs which lift the general economic standard.
I am talking about sittuations like UPSC civil services where seats are few and competition is immense.Think of a jat boy who got the Allied services but probably could have got foreign service had reservation been there.ANd now think of a ahir or gujjar who is n't even worth of a job of section officer and becomes DM because of reservation.
And yes let's get selfish...it's not jats' duty to see that free and fair society prevails... but it is our
'dharma' to see that our community gets the best deal,as they say "Goals justify means"
It will not matter for us who live in metropolis/overseas but for those underdogs in backwaters it is life saving drug,,,and for community and instrument to grow and mind numbing speed.

tushankurs
March 26th, 2002, 01:45 PM
We don't need it but can be used as an extra spoon of sugar in a tea sometimes...

shokeen123
April 2nd, 2002, 02:37 AM
I have reviewed most of the comments here, some in favor, others downright against, and yet some, like myself, somewhere in the middle. Because I have not been able to take a stand either way, I am simply posting some thoughts.

In the last few decades countries as diverse as Australia, South Africa, and United States, have introduced policies of positive discrimination. The aim of such policies is to reduce inequaltites of so-called historically disadvantaged groups, and fulfill the constitutional committment to democracy and equality, so that the oppressed can acquire access to education, employment and sacrce resources.

Agreed, positive discrimination does works towards building a democratic, egalitarian and humane social order, but conversely, by institutionalizing affermative action in favor of any one group, the government effectively discriminates against others, alienates them, feeds their sense of grievance and can contribute to a growing militancy without necessarily helping the most needy. Affirmative action in general is often counterproductive. Preferential policies foster the values of solidarity based on the cult of victim hood-instead of thrift, hard work, and self- improvement.

Then again, within the "disadvanteged" groups receiving preferential treatment, benefits are captured by the better educated, more articulate and more politically skilled elite. Although the programs are meant to reduce the eliminate intergroup disparities, the group leaders become dependent on the perpetuation of perceived disparities.

Furthermore, the disadvantaged groups in India are vastly hetrogeneous. First of all the Constitution places the two most disadvantged sections, (ST), and (ST) in the higher footing than the others as far as the affirmative action in concerned. Both are entitled to representation in all legislatures in proportion to their numbers/jobs in the government, and admission to educational institutions, both at the central government and the states. Priority is accorded them over the, Other Backward Class" (OBCs), in accessing benefits.

The OBCs themselves are not homogeneous category. At one end are the dominant, landowning castes who own a sizable amount of land available locally, are politically influential, and are increasingly represented in the govt., while, at the other end are numerically small artisanal, laboring, and servicing castes, more entitled to the benefits and concessions which the dominant castes are receiving. Once again, this perception is bound to play in favor of the latter, than the former.

Reservation is a paradoxical situation where, on the one hand , govt. tries to diminish the importance of such caste attributes as untouchability, and low social status by way of reservations, while on the other hand, it lends official recognition to caste as the criteria for eligibility. In this way, reservations have created a vested interest in the survival of caste. Over fourty years, after the formal abolition of caste, caste is more alive than ever in India!

While positive discrimination in India has had considerable success, both, symbolically, and substantially, it has it's negative side. First of all, there has been too much reliance on "reservation" per se, and it has not been supplemented by attempts to train the targeted beneficiaries to actually benefit from access. Even more importantly, the failure to universalize the primary education, in spite of the existence of a constitutional directive to achieve it.

Because I don't know the exact provisons for Jats as OBCs, I am unable to decipher the relevance. If it renders no tangible gains to Jats, and allows discrmination within the OBC sub-groups, my biggest fear is that the truly needy may not benefit from this controversial policy. On the contrary, it may be the only national level policy that will prove as a viable option for the Jats to change their status quo.

Sujata

sphougat
April 5th, 2002, 09:42 PM
It is good idea to have it.

sonia
May 28th, 2002, 06:15 AM
Just because we would get some seats reserved in schools/colleges or any other place would you really like to be called a "Scheduled Caste" or a "Scheduled Tribe" ? Personally, I wouldn't...

amitdahiya
June 1st, 2002, 05:07 PM
There is another angle to this issue quite distinct to employment opportunities. It is the issue of connectivity and its impact on developing societies that are struggling to achieve change without adequate resources and quality management.

The institutions of the state and its corporations, undertakings etc are also indirect seats of power with a potential to impact on change in the form of catalysts. Therefore developing societies that are not represented in these institutions lose many opportunities other than direct employment.

Connectivity plays a very powerful role in shortening time lines in getting things done and who better than a person from your community to facilitate the short straight route to getting things done without getting lost in the maze of red tape, disinformation and parasitical touts as also corrupt freelancers within these institutions.

The people from your community who serve in these organisations do act as informal agents of change and pioneering pathfinders. Who amongst us in a difficult situation and in unfamiliar circumstances has not benefited from a spontaneous act of support, advice and timely intervention by a fellow clansman a jat brother or sister. I know I have. I am grateful for this connectivity because below a certain level in society it is often the only currency that supports the thirst to succeed and nurtures the appetite for change.

For these reasons too, I believe we need to support reservation for our people, not as a backward community but in the spirit of one facing serious disadvantage.

shokeen123
June 1st, 2002, 10:59 PM
Sonia:

With due respect, "Just because we would get some seats reserved in schools/ colleges" (that will open doors for admission to educational institutions, access to employment, and other scarce resources) is p-r-e-t-t-y damn good reason for caste-based discrimination, or reservation.

With regard to being called a "Scheduled Caste" or a "Scheduled Tribe....?" My dear sister, have you ever stood next to a meagerly peon or a humble security guard/ gateman in an air-conditioned, posh building, and realized what it feels like? It feels worse than an elite, well-suited, tie-clad schedule caste executive, who commands you with a sense of pride and dignity. Do you read schedule caste written on his forehead, or does his mannerism suggest he is a schedule caste? On the other hand, sure, our dear humble Jat peon can be immediately distinguished as some one who may not have had enough resources to further his life. Therein lies the distinction between a corporate CEO and a corporate night watchman, and the key is education, not the caste!

One more point to ponder, at human level, just how do you differentiate a schedule caste from a high caste? Do they have one less arm or leg? Are they humans of lesser Gods? My dear, in the end, we all pass before God in a single file, with a destiny peculiarly our own -- but that's another chapter... beyond the realm of this discussion!

Of course you reserve the right to your opinion!

Sujata

shokeen123
June 1st, 2002, 11:21 PM
In continuation....

Gandhi called himself a "Harijan" - "Hari" meaning God, and "Jan" meaning man/woman, or god's people. If the father of our nation, whom the world reveres, can identify himself as a schedule caste, I would consider it an honor to stand next to him in line, no matter whatever that implies (yes, the lowly schedule caste)! A caste doesn't make us superior or inferior, our deeds do!

Sujata

crsnadar
June 14th, 2002, 11:03 AM
TO DECLARE JAT OBC IS A CLEVER STEP OF SOME POLITICAL PEOPLE TO SHOW JATS DOWNWARD.
I DON'T THINK IT WILL HELP IN GETTING JOB IN ANY WAY BECAUSE THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF CASTES INCLUDED IN OBC LIST.
THE ONLY OUTPUT OF IT WILL BE THAT WE SHELL BE CALLED AS AN OBC & WE WILL LOOSE OUR SOCIAL STATUS WHICH OUR ELDERS GAVE US.
WHAT WOULD BE THE CONDITION OF MAHARAJA SURAJMAL IF HE CAME TO KNOW THAT JATS ARE GOING TO BE IN OBC CATEGORY.
TO GET THE SUCCESS HARD WORK IS THE PRIME REQUIRMENT BECAUSE NO BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OBC & GENERAL.

**ONCE I WAS GIVING MY ENGINEERING ENTRANCE EXAM & I AM THE ONLY JAT AT THE CENTRE AT ALLAHABAD.
A MAN CAME TO ROOM & ANNOUNCED ABOUT RESERVATION & TOLD ME TO GIVE MY NAME AS I WAS THE ONLY JAT THERE. BUT I FULLY REFUSED IT & TOLD IN THE CLASSROOM THAT JAT DON'T NEED ANY RESERVATION. I HAVE GOT A RANK TO GET ADDMISSION ON FREE SEAT. IF I WOULD TAKE THE OFFER I WOULD SURELY BE EVEN IN A VERY PRESTIGIOUS COLLEGE BUT IT DOES NOT AFFECT ME BECAUSE I HAVE GOT VERY GOOD PERCENTAGE IN MY COLLEGE EXAMS IN 80'S. I BELIEVE IN MY HARD WORK &
I WILL DO GOOD I BELIEVE.**

ON BEING A GENERAL CATEGORY CHEERS UP YOU FROM YOUR INSIDE & I AM SURE YOU WILL DO WHAT YOU ARE NOT EVEN EXPECTING.
THERE IS NO ANY RESPECTABLE STATUS OF YADAVS IN THE SOCIETY & NOR A SO MUCH PEOPLES FROM THEM ARE IN GOOD SERVICES. I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE GOT ANYTHING FROM OBC EXCEPT LOOSING OF STATUS.
JATS HAVE A VERY BIG & ROYAL STATUS & WE MUST NOT EVEN THINK TO COMPROMISING WITH IT. WHAT WE MUST DO IS TO CHEER UP, HELP FARMERS OF THE VILLAGES & WHO ARE STUDYING MAKE THOSE JATS CONCENTRATING TOWARDS THERE GOAL & I KNOW THAT JATS CAN DO AAAAAANYTHING THEY WANT TO.
JATS HAVE A VERY SHARP MIND ONLY THEY HAVE TO USE IT. NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE. WE SHOULD INCREASE THE HIGHT OF THE STATUS NOT TO EXPOIL IT.

**IF ANYONE CAN SUGGESS IT TO THE ANY POLOTICAL POWER I REQUEST HIM TO MAKE JATS COUNTED IN GENERAL CATEGORY(WHERE THEY ARE IN OBC) & I AM SURE THIS WILL BE THE SUCCESS GATE FOR THE JAT COMMUNITY. THIS CAN BE DONE IN JAT MAHASABHAS.**

BEST OF LUCK TO ALL JATS

crsnadar
June 19th, 2002, 03:14 PM
Hi all,

**STRONGLY OPPOSE IT **

The difference between OBC & GENERAL for any govt. service or addmission is

= 20 - 19
Because in OBC there is also a big crowd even may be bigger than in GENERAL. Very few caste are included now in general. only relaxation in age is there no other big advantage.

SO WE HAVE ADVANTAGE = 1 POINT


Now as we will loose our social status & this can mently affect us(be practical) so the self the difference in self respect in OBC & GENERAL is
15 - 20

Because being an OBC one's self respect goes fallen down when other call him as OBC & if he is a JAT then it may create bigger problem & he may divert from his main goal. Why in any exam general score more why not OBC & SC/ST because they are cheered up by their inner respect.

SO WE HAVE DISADVANTAGE = 5 POINTS

SO THE DISADVANTAGE IS MORE BY 4 POINTS.


SO OVERALL WE WILL HAVE ONLY DISADVANTAGE BY THIS.

I am not from a very big family but know what I have to do & I believe in my work not in reservation like stupid offers from govt.

DO hard work success will be yours
- RAHUL