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shokeen123
December 12th, 2001, 02:53 AM
Yes, Haryana's proximity to Delhi has led to a lot of metro values and ways proliferating the state, eroding traditional values but with nothing to replace it with! Urban consumer dreams have spun their yarns leaving the once simple-minded people in the money-making schemes. And as a result a new breed of rustic smart have cropped up, unable to completely break free of their conventional mould yet trying to emulate the city culture.

With the Green Revolution in the 60s, came the change in the class structure. The landed became more prosperous and set up factories, whole sate grain business or took to politics. which is prestigious and well paying. The middle class became comfortably rich and the lower income group became the new middle class. However, in the heirachial structure the old feudalistic traditions in the man-woman relations remained unchanged. The work culture changed from man to machine, and the manual work remained burdened on women.

The women slave tirelessly from dawn to late nights in the fields, and at home. Although the traditional dress of ghaghari and chundri has been replaced with a more comfortable Punjabi suit, the old custom of keeping the face veiled still persists. In sharp contrast a coterie of men can (still) be seen on charpoys inhaling deeply from their hookas as they play cards. So deeply ingrained are the traditional ways of the feudal system that despite the younger generation blindly following the urban values, the traditional ways of Haryanvi machoism in the man-woman identity hasn't and perhaps (?) will never change. The "Chaudhary cult" (landlord) is so strong that there is no way it can be replaced by the "Chaudhrian" (landlady). Women still find themselves ensconced in the traditional mould, victims of their own social orientation, with little space for manouvre.

Furthermore, in Haryana (well most of India!) there is no gender equity. The new found prosperity and growing education has not diminished the patriarchal bias for sons "Chhore Pe Baje Thali, Chhori Pe Thekere Phoren" is an old sentiment in Haryana and Delhi to "announce the birth of a son by beating brass plate, but at the birth of a daughter break earthen pots." A son is still the man who will carry on the family name and take care of old parents. The girl child is just a pebble in the dust, neglected or simply discarded. It's tough being a Jat girl. It's tough being a Jat woman. The fate of the girl-child if born has its own price.

So no wonder the main difference between the women of Punjab and Haryana, both agro-based societies is that women in Punjab get a better deal. Besides not having to work in the fields, they have more autonomy and freedom to move around unveiled. The 1991 Census put the literacy rate for Punjabi women at 49.72%, which is still on the rise. In contrast the literacy rates for Haryanvi women was 40.94% and the progress has been very slow since.

The 1991 Census also showed Haryan'a sex ratio at 874 females to 1000 males, already lower than the All India sex ratio of 927 females for 1000 males. In fact four districts, Jind, Hissar, Kaithal and Kurukshetra all fall in Haryana and account for the country's 10 worst inverse sex ratio districts. From 1987-1994, the infant mortality rates in Haryana were 84% higher for the girl-child. The youth may have got the trappings of modernism but the social orientation is such that they will continue with the traditional ways. The change has to come from society which agrees that a girl child has a right to life and blossom as a woman.

Don't blame me....I didn't create these statistics....I am merely the messenger. The picture isn't all that pretty for the Jat women. No..I am not a pessimist, and neither do I feel proud of these statistics, I am just a staunch supporter of Jat women. Sometime (now!), somone has to bring their silent voice to the forefront. Any questions out there?

rajeshsindhu
December 13th, 2001, 10:54 AM
Shashi,
Kudos for the excellently true portrait of most of the women's status in the area. But from solution perspective, this is just the 'problem' part. Lets take this opportunity to discuss it in detail:
1. Why is it so ? : Need to dig out deeply to figure out the real reasons. Need to go back in history from where this menace started creeping in.
2. What can be done(in a practical sense) to improve the situation? : Lets talk about some realistic approaches/steps need to be taken( and by whom?).

On the optimistic side, let me put some other statistics about women in Haryana:
1. Since last couple of years, all the graduation and postgraduation results) in all streams of study) are topped by women students in all the universities in Haryana.
2. Haryana board's secondary and senior school results are normaly topped by girl candidates.
3. Number of woman students in Haryana Medical College is increasing every year.
4. Among all the 32 states/UTs in India, Haryana state's percentage of women literacy is among top 5 states.

There is so much in India law system to protect/defend a woman's rights. But unfortunately: most women have no knowledge of them; and the few who know are misusing them.

champa
December 13th, 2001, 05:23 PM
dear shashi,
hello
you have drawn a true ,realistic picture of haryana women.congratulations it is a good social uplift effort.keep it up.
regards

rsdalal
December 14th, 2001, 02:27 AM
Dear Shasi Shokeen,
Very true and we all feel bad about this.
Most of JAT community lives in villages and most of the Haryana villages have schools till 10-12 standard. After passing that, most of the boys go to nearby town/city for further education and girls stay home and ready to get married.
Do we blame parents for this?
I do not think so, sending girls to nearby town, have risks, You know what I am talking about, Particularly Jat society have not accepted that yet. I am not in favor or against in sending girls to another city alone for education, but that is a whole new topic.
So in my opinion schools in villages, is the one solution, but will govt. spend/afford that much for each village?
<<Haryana state's percentage of women literacy is among top 5 states >>
This is true but this percentage includes Non jat women and they are a substantial portion of this. If the same kind of statistic is done per community wise, I think jat women will not be in top five ?

rajeshsindhu
December 15th, 2001, 04:09 AM
Hight of this menace ...

(from Tribune India, dated December 15, 2001)

Bored Haryanvis take to wife-bashing
Raman Mohan
Hisar, December 14
Political lull in Haryana is having a strange fallout in the countryside. There has been an upsurge in incidents of
wife-bashing and petty family quarrels which village elders ascribe to boredom as a result of political lull which
has deprived villagers of their regular dose of politicking.

?Withdrawal? symptoms among rural males are acute, more so as the state has seen two Lok Sabha elections and as many Assembly election within a period of four years.

A tour of politically active districts of the Jat belt showed that life is no longer the same. The trademark card sessions, which involved heated political discussions among the villagers, are now subdued. Likewise, the late evening binges are no longer noisy. The rural males in fact wear dull and sombre expressions.
The villagers have relatively more time on their hands and the only pastime they had ever known - political rallies - has become scarce.
The Congress has held a few rallies but these were marred by factionalism. Thus these generated little political interest. These were also restricted to particular areas, not involving the entire Jat belt. The Haryana Vikas Party chief, Mr Bansi Lal, is the only major personality who has been addressing rallies regularly. But these too have been relatively localised events,
INLD, the party that introduced the rally culture is concentrating on rallies in Uttar Pradesh.

Even the Chief Minister?s sarkar aapke dwar programme has added to the boredom. While rallies and their preparations provided the villagers with opportunities to travel to nearby areas, they no longer have to travel large distances to see their leader.
Daryao Singh of Meham said the noticeable increase in family quarrels and incidents of wife-bashing were a direct outcome of idle time the villagers had on their hands. ?Politics is our staple diet and lack of it affects our psyche. We cannot be happy without hectic political activity?. Raj Singh, a village elder sitting with him, said: ?Mhare jawan to ulge (idlers) hain. Yo rajniti kare bagair knoya rah sakde. Ib wah nahi rahi, yeh lugai (wife) ne pite hain?.
Psychiatrists also said there had been an increase in the number of villagers suffering from depression. which they attribute to boredom, without mentioning its causes.

rsdalal
December 16th, 2001, 08:44 PM
This is too much, in the name of free press they can not put anything they want. And let me tell you indirectly in this article Haryanvi means JATS only. This is just the part of that JAT Phobia, we are talking about in another thread and they reply in this way.

rajeshsindhu
December 17th, 2001, 03:04 AM
Ranvir Bhai,
I do understand your agony and reaction to it. Same was mine also. Yes there are phobic elements in this article. And i'm glad that our Jat bretherns have started to see througth the facial words of cunny people trying to defame the community.
But having said that, this article DOES point to the wife-beating menace existing everywhere including Haryana. I have very much seen this in Haryana villages where the man try to show his physical superiority over his wife by beating her, the wife who is already suppressed so much.

BTW, I AM SURPRISED TO NOTICE THE STOIC SILENCE OF OTHER ACTIVE MEMBERS ON THIS BURNING SOCIAL TOPIC RAISED BY SHASHI. THIS IS SENDING WRONG SIGNALS. IS THIS SILENCE REFLECTION OF SOME "WEAKNESS" ???



Ranvir Singh Dalal (Dec 16, 2001 10:14 a.m.):
This is too much, in the name of free press they can not put anything they want. And let me tell you indirectly in this article Haryanvi means JATS only. This is just the part of that JAT Phobia, we are talking about in another thread and they reply in this way.

shokeen123
December 17th, 2001, 06:17 AM
Dear Ranvir Bhai

Jai Ram Ji Ki....

Before my marriage, "controversy" used to be my middle name. I not only could live with it, but cherished it, because at a very early age, at the very grass root level, I had unknowingly become sensitive to the (Jat) women issues after what I saw what was happening in my own neighborhood. I must make one distinction at the outset though, that not all Jats are alike. However, with the same token we must not ignore that there exist pockets of injustice right before our eyes.

Tell me what's wrong with this picture?

"As a menstruating girl she may be set aside as unclean, polluting, and made to feel dirty and ashamed. As a teenager, she may be married to someone she doesn't know, and made pregnant before her own body is fully grown. As woman unable to bear children, she may be abused and abandoned, even though it may be husband who is infertile, or even if her infertility is caused by a disease contracted by her partner. As a pregnant woman she may be denied the basic consideration, the rest and the food and the antenatal care, to which she is entitled. As a woman in labour, she will not receive treatment. As a woman enduring a prolonged childbirth, she may be left to die alone in agony. As a woman suffering from childbirth injury, she may die because her husband will not allow her to be seen by a male doctor. As a mother of a baby girl, she may be blamed and beaten despite the fact that it is the chromosomes of the male that determine the sex of the baby. As a wife, she may be forced to submit to sex within a few days of giving birth, or subjected to violence if she refuses. As a new mother, she may be expected to become pregnant again before her body has recovered. And finally even if she has sustained an injury or infection that is serious and treatable, and even in those rare cases when health care workers seek her out knowing that she will not come to them, she may still not be allowed to go into hospital because there will be no one to cook the meals." (UNICEF 1994)

Although much has improved since 1994, but some things have not. I completely agree with you about opening as many as possible high schools in the villages, but until such things happen we can't turn deaf ear to what's happening around us right now.

I remember one of my neighbors' very young daughter (14)committed suicide because her overpowering brother-in-law (her older sister's husband and Jayeth) wouldn't spare her. No one ever really found out whether it was a suicide or a murder, because her funeral was done before police arrived on the scene. After this event, the older sister (16), who had no role in it, had to come back and live with her parents (as decided by the Panchayat), where she became a burden to the family as well as society. She had no identity, slogged day in and day out with no dignity and no one to cry to! She was virtually a servant to the entire family, and her innocent little son, too young to understand it all, tagged along every where she went. Eventually, several years later she was forced to go back to the same abusive husband. She had no say in any of this. I grew up with this little girl. We played dolls together. How could it not have affected me?

Don't tell me you can't recall or give accord of a similar story from your own village, because if you do, you must have lived on another planet. I am not being cynical, it is the plain truth!

This forum gives us the chance to air our own dirty laundry -- by that I mean come face to face with the Jat social issues/reality. Please look inside your heart and think compassionately, this girl may not have been associated with your life, but she was one of us....that is if there is "us?"

regards,

Shashi

PS: I was looking for a suitable emotional legend (symbol)to make my point across politely, but I don't find any that would (from the options), so I am posting with a hope of an understanding.

rsdalal
December 18th, 2001, 09:30 PM
Dear Shashi,
You must have noticed contradiction in my posts, When Raman Mohan publishes the same kind of issues, I opposes him, but in some other post I myself raised the same kind of issues or supported another jat doing so.
Because, there is a difference between the intentions of these two. Where as one JAT’s intention is to educate/sympathies more people so that this can be eradicated as much as possible. But Raman Mohan’s intention is just opposite (At least I see it that way), it is more of teasing kind of thing, and he wants to add as much as Mirch/Masala he can, so that his editorial is more interesting to Non-Jats.
…Ranvir

rajeshsindhu
December 24th, 2001, 05:03 AM
Friends, following lecture by a great Indian personality, given almost 100 years back in America, throws some light on how woman's degeneration krept into societies. Hope it will serve a good peep into past part of this problem.
"The product of the slums of any nation cannot be the criterion of judgement of that nation. One may collect the rotten, worm-eaten apples under every apple tree in the world, and write a book about each of them, and still know nothing of the beauty and possibilities of the apple tree. .... its not only proper, but just and right, to judge a custom by its best, by its ideal."
"The ideal of womanhood centres in the Aryan race of India, the most ancient in the world's history. In that race, men and women were priests, 'saha-dharmini' or co-religionists, as the Vedas call them. There every family had its hearth or altar, on which, at the time of wedding, the marriage fire was kindled, which was kept alive until either spouse died, when the funeral pile was lighted from its spark. There man and wife together offered their sacrifices, and this idea was carried so far that a man could not even pray alone, because it was held that he was only half a being, for that reason no unmarried man could become a priest. The same held true in ancient Rome and Greece."
"But with the advent of a distinct and separate priestclass, the co-priesthood of the woman in all these nations steps back. First it was the Assyrian race, coming of semitic blood, which proclaimed the doctrine that girls have no voice, and no right, even when married. The Persians drank deep of this Babylonian idea, and by them it was carried to Rome and to Greece, and everywhere woman degenerated. But side by side with these excrescenes a very intense idea of personal purity sprang up in the nation. This idea of personal purity has imprinted itself deeply into the very heart of the race, amounting almost to a mania. The most conspicuous example of it is to be found in the capture of Chitor by Mahammedans- when the enemy broke down the gates 74500 women jumped on the huge funeral pile and perished in the flames."
"The next period is that of the monks. It came with the advent of Buddhism, which taught that only the monks could reach the 'nirvana'. The result was that all India became one huge monastery; there was just one objective, one battle - to remain pure. All the blame was cast onto women, and even the proverbs warned against them. 'What is the gate to hell?' was one of them, to which answer was : 'Woman'. Another read : 'What is the chain which binds us all to dust ? Woman'. Another one: 'Who is the blindest of the blind? He who is deceived by woman.' The same idea is to be found in the cloisters of the West. The development of all monasticism always meant the degeneration of women."
"But eventually another idea of womanhood arose. In the West it found its ideal in the wife, in India in the mother. But do not think that the priest were alltogether responsible for this change. I know they always lay claim to everything in the world. Here in the West the development of women was rought about by men like John Stuart Mill and the revolutionary French philosophers. Religion has done something, no doubt, but not all."
"In India the mother is the centre of the family and our highest ideal. She is to us the representative of God, as God is the mother of the Universe. It was female sage who first found the unity of God, and laid down this doctrine in one of the first hymns of the Vedas. Our God is both personal and absolute; the absolute is male, the personal is female. And thus it comes that we now say: 'The first manifastation of God is the hand that rocks the craddle.' And I and every Hindu believe that my mother was pure and holy and hence I owe her everything that I am. This is the secret of the race - chastity."

ranjitjat
January 10th, 2002, 10:19 PM
DEAR SASHI MAny congratulations you are very brave& hit the burning topic.the problem is known to every one but very few want to address it.equal right for women is a great social issue one has to fight to get justice.Education to women will help.but you have to start a mass cival movement for social movement you need great awakening.make a association get all the women and right thinking people with you. my co-operation and best wishes is with you

shokeen123
January 12th, 2002, 07:16 AM
Dear Dharam Pal Bhai:

Thank you so much for your encouragement. To invoke a positive consciousness was the true intent of my posting. This site is fast gaining the much needed popularity, recognition and provoking deeper thoughts. Of course the change wouldn't happen overnight. We must think of the innovative approaches that have helped improve the status of women worldwide. I have been thinking feverishly, ever since I have found this platform. Some Jat women have written encouraging emails to me to continue the dialogue. I am sure we will succeed in our quest.

Shashi

rajeshsindhu
January 12th, 2002, 03:23 PM
Folks!

I can see that everyody is recoganising, supporting, accepting and identifying the problem. But i am really waiting for the equally hard hitting and PRACTICAL words( specially from the issue raiser) on the solution side of it. I'm not convinced that just just raising some issue makes any good if its not followed by some concerete suggestions on fixing it. India is not short of orators and advisers. Attend any women organisation functions and we can hear much more than what is mentioned here. All of them talk: ....women are tortured, women are made slave, women are treated badly ....we will not tolerate ot any more( they say it since last 50 years) ... we want equality....ect ..etc". And i don't think that has made any noticable change in the situation. I advise the people to watch a recently released movie 'bawander" based on true story of a woman still alive. It will give you glimpses of reality.
So can we all on this site can think of some innovative and practical way of improving the situation.
In my mind one solution of most of the social problems is : development of mind, most likely through education. Of course the real issue is how to impart it to the people who need it the most.

Hoping lots of responses!

-Rajesh Sindhu

amitdahiya
January 17th, 2002, 03:04 PM
Dear Shahshi, I agree with you almost entirely and you are probably going to hate me for this but I would like you to consider that women at least as much as men are responsible for this peculiar and indeed tragic situation. Mothers attach so much premium to every aspect of their sons lives that theres very little material, emotional, spiritual and physical energy left for the girls. I feel that the following simple messages need to be disseminated throughout the Jat lands
1. The baby foetus acquires its gender from the father and not the mother, she plays absolutely no biological role in creating the Gender of the child. this message needs to be repeated millions of times over and over employing every available medium of communication to plant the seed of a new gender consciousness.

2. Government should ensure that all subsidies, compensation, scholarships, grants, rebates, incentives are distributed through (and to) the women members of a family thereby attaching a special socio economic importance to their gender.

shokeen123
January 17th, 2002, 08:24 PM
Hallelujah!

Amit that's the expression used in America, for praise, joy or thanks, when something important (as being discussed here) gets a much needed boost. In this case I mean all of those.

Well, at a personal level I found solace in the famous phrase, "charity begins at home." I don't think I can change the world single-handedly (none of us can--except for Gandhi!), but it does start one at a time. I was very fortunate to have parents who allowed me the freedom to succeed, in whatever was my mission. That being said, I am in full agreement with you (no, I don't hate you for speaking the plain truth) that it doesn't "all" depend on one's circumstances! One has to have the insight not only to identify one's need, but be ready to take on the challenges, and face the consequences, no matter what!

Despite my parents's support, it was a long and agonizing journey for me, nevertheless, I have succeeded in planting the seeds you are referring to. The most important thing in the world to me, is my daughter. I took the responsibility of changing her destiny, and that you know wouldn't have been possible without changing my own first! She is a valedictorian at a prestigious school in the US.

I didn't want to stop there. I am sympathetic to the cause of millions of other Jat sisters. I am sure all of you "Jat brothers" have a sister, a sister-in-law or a female figure in life that you can contribute towards.

I am hoping for more input and action from the Jatland community. I am especially looking forward to the "Jatnis" on this board to actively contribute and suggest ways to help improve the status of women. You are so right Amit, they need to come out to the forefront more than anyone else.

uday
January 20th, 2005, 04:27 PM
This forum gives us the chance to air our own dirty laundry -- by that I mean come face to face with the Jat social issues/reality. Please look inside your heart and think compassionately, this girl may not have been associated with your life, but she was one of us....that is if there is "us?"


How moderately sincere we are in cleaning our this dirty laundry??

Uday


Dear Ranvir Bhai

Jai Ram Ji Ki....

Before my marriage, "controversy" used to be my middle name. I not only could live with it, but cherished it, because at a very early age, at the very grass root level, I had unknowingly become sensitive to the (Jat) women issues after what I saw what was happening in my own neighborhood. I must make one distinction at the outset though, that not all Jats are alike. However, with the same token we must not ignore that there exist pockets of injustice right before our eyes.

Tell me what's wrong with this picture?

"As a menstruating girl she may be set aside as unclean, polluting, and made to feel dirty and ashamed. As a teenager, she may be married to someone she doesn't know, and made pregnant before her own body is fully grown. As woman unable to bear children, she may be abused and abandoned, even though it may be husband who is infertile, or even if her infertility is caused by a disease contracted by her partner. As a pregnant woman she may be denied the basic consideration, the rest and the food and the antenatal care, to which she is entitled. As a woman in labour, she will not receive treatment. As a woman enduring a prolonged childbirth, she may be left to die alone in agony. As a woman suffering from childbirth injury, she may die because her husband will not allow her to be seen by a male doctor. As a mother of a baby girl, she may be blamed and beaten despite the fact that it is the chromosomes of the male that determine the sex of the baby. As a wife, she may be forced to submit to sex within a few days of giving birth, or subjected to violence if she refuses. As a new mother, she may be expected to become pregnant again before her body has recovered. And finally even if she has sustained an injury or infection that is serious and treatable, and even in those rare cases when health care workers seek her out knowing that she will not come to them, she may still not be allowed to go into hospital because there will be no one to cook the meals." (UNICEF 1994)

Although much has improved since 1994, but some things have not. I completely agree with you about opening as many as possible high schools in the villages, but until such things happen we can't turn deaf ear to what's happening around us right now.

I remember one of my neighbors' very young daughter (14)committed suicide because her overpowering brother-in-law (her older sister's husband and Jayeth) wouldn't spare her. No one ever really found out whether it was a suicide or a murder, because her funeral was done before police arrived on the scene. After this event, the older sister (16), who had no role in it, had to come back and live with her parents (as decided by the Panchayat), where she became a burden to the family as well as society. She had no identity, slogged day in and day out with no dignity and no one to cry to! She was virtually a servant to the entire family, and her innocent little son, too young to understand it all, tagged along every where she went. Eventually, several years later she was forced to go back to the same abusive husband. She had no say in any of this. I grew up with this little girl. We played dolls together. How could it not have affected me?

Don't tell me you can't recall or give accord of a similar story from your own village, because if you do, you must have lived on another planet. I am not being cynical, it is the plain truth!

This forum gives us the chance to air our own dirty laundry -- by that I mean come face to face with the Jat social issues/reality. Please look inside your heart and think compassionately, this girl may not have been associated with your life, but she was one of us....that is if there is "us?"

regards,

Shashi

PS: I was looking for a suitable emotional legend (symbol)to make my point across politely, but I don't find any that would (from the options), so I am posting with a hope of an understanding.

devdahiya
January 20th, 2005, 06:12 PM
My dear Sujata ji,

What a thread and how honestly and truly you have put it across.....congratulations for showing a concern and that too in a befitting manner.But you know what......your voice will remain confined to JATLAND.COM......That is my worry.Hope it goes out and is heard by many.......so that our woman can come out of this nonesense.AAP TO AAJKAL AATE BHI NAHIN HO,please visit the site regularly,because your GRIT and guts will inspire atleast the younger generation if not all. I am greatful to UDAY BHAI for GOOGLE OUT of THIS THREAD FOR US, AS IT WAS BITING DUST IN SOME CORNER.I wish to communicate with you more frequently in times to come.Thanx a ton for putting 2&2=4 together.



Warm regards

amitdahiya
January 20th, 2005, 07:09 PM
When will such burning issues move beyond the heart and mind and manifest themselves in physical and social action? Where and how can we take this issue one small measurable step ahead in the right direction.