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ravichaudhary
November 23rd, 2002, 03:42 AM
I have started a specialized discussion group specializing in “ Jat History”.

The membership is not restricted to Jats and will thus compliment more general lists such as this excellent one.

It is intended to act as a clearing house for historical information, where contributors can discuss and reconstruct the History of the Jats.

I expect that a number of topics will be controversial, but by subjecting them to open discussion, we can further the knowledge of our history.

There is a lack of serious research in our history. Any one simply has to go through any Indian History text, to see that there is little or no mention of the Jats and their past.

This has been detrimental to our identity and to any role model that could be available to our youngsters.

The history of a people is not restricted to war and bloodshed, It also includes culture and customs.

There has been some misconception that the Jats had no interest in culture of their history.

This is not the case.

Rather that those who wrote on Indian History could not see beyond their immediate nose, their culture and history was usurped and written as Non Jat history.

Some records have however survived the turmoil of the last 1200 years


Those interested in joining are welcome. The URL is below.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

Ravi Chaudhary

singhkapoor
November 23rd, 2002, 06:09 AM
Chaudhary Sahab

What a thought!!!!

I will certainly joining the group. But I have some apprehensions. I hope we are able to steer clear of the "self acclaimed" jat historians.

I am the first guy to admit that I do not know much about our own history and would not post any comments that I have not double checked beforehand.

There is no harm in posting an article/thought if you mention that this is "believed" to be true. I m only asking the participants to feel a little more "responsible" before putting forward a so called "fact".

I also understand that there is a lot of info about our history which has been passed on through word of mouth rather than through written documentation, so everything will not be true.........but...but....but please do not jump the gun and post a topic just for the sake of posting it.

I hope to learn more about jat history and meet some "REALLY KNOWLEDGEABLE" people on this forum.

Hope to see you there.

THANX AGAIN FOR FORMING THIS GROUP. THREE CHEERS.

kapoor singh

ravichaudhary
November 23rd, 2002, 07:54 AM
Dear Ch. Kapoor Singh

I am more critical of myself than you could wish me to be.

It has taken some time for me to make these posts and start this group, which I hope some of you will take over- soon.

I do not accept doctrine or dogma

I would like members to join, question, and question.

Also as part of our tradition, I would like to see our women members take an active part and indeed take the lead!

There will be lots of controversial topics !

Questions are alive -answers are dead !!

Nithin has done wonderful work so far.

It is time now to look outside and bring in additional resources

Ravi

P.S Anyone who wishes to call my tel # is 416 733 2820 ( Toronto)

ranjitjat
November 25th, 2002, 10:49 PM
Dear Ravi Chaudhry
I am a student of history.
I have written a book on Indian Army History.
FRANCE TO KARGIL.
I will like to join the group.
I tried but could not sign on your Yahoo site.
Please advice
cheers.

rsdalal
November 26th, 2002, 01:54 AM
Good work keep it up...

ndahiya
November 26th, 2002, 01:18 PM
Hi!!

Its a good venture... IMHO, splitting the data collection/discussion effort is not necessarily functional.

In any case, would appreciate if someone could collate stuff on different loactions for addition the jatland.com's history section... its unfortunate but not one consistent and comprehensive piece has been written so far in addition of what the site started with...

nitin

ravichaudhary
November 30th, 2002, 09:43 AM
New Jat list

Nitin Dahiya has rightly raised a question about the collection and keeping of data, and
the inconsistency of the accounts of Jat History.

First of let me congratulate Nithin for his excellent leadership and the creation of this
excellent web site.

In the study of a history I see two divisions

1) The re construction of the History and

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory

2) The recording and keeping of the tradition.


is the repertoire of the data while the augmentative part, the thrashing out of the history
which must stand upto professional criticism, The separation of fact from fiction be
outside on another, indeed many forums.

I see this website of Nitin to record 2, while the arguments I would rather have on a
separate site, where they would not have to contaminate this site.

When the group feels they are ready a direct link to the Jatland.com website.

There will be a lot of controversy, and many denigrators of our history. People who for
some reason sought to eliminate every sign, every Nam Nishan of our people's
existence.

I do not expect those prejudices to go away anytime soon. Hence I would rather keep
this site for Jat members only and the hurly burly discussion elsewhere.

I am addressing this to Nithin specially, as I do not wish him to take umbrage at a new
discussion group, but to understand my reasons for creating it.

This list will be a specialized group. A clearinghouse of information and data.

On that list

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

I hope to draw non-Jat members and scholars from across the world that will participate
and contribute to our understanding of our history.

One success we have had, is the Dr Mehmet Tezcan a noted Historian from Turkey,
who has a special interest in Kushan Studies has joined the group.( Kushans are Jats)

I hope the group will attract more scholars, and many Indian scholars, and many and this
are most important many Jat scholars and Jat non scholars

Reconstruction of our history is something I cannot do single handedly, and I am going
to ask for everyone support.

Many will ask what can I contribute, I am not a historian and so on. True, but there is
much history in everyone family.

How did your gotra start ?, what do your Bhat records say ?, what is the history of your
village,? did one of your family ever serve in the Indian National Army, or in the Navy or
the Army or the Air force ?. Was there anyone in the naval revolt of 1947.

Do you have any information of the war of 1857 and so on?

Much of tradition is oral, and much was lost.

Before we lose more, let us record it, and take a critical look at it and record it for our
children

As the data and a consistent version emerges, that must be stored on this website, and
be available for research by other scholars and Jats.

I hope this is clearer and I will ask for everyone support.


Ravi

To Join click on or contact me


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

boorams
December 1st, 2002, 02:52 PM
I agree with Raviji's idea of keeping the jat history group separate. Jatland.com is meant only for jats, whereas for discussion on subjects like history of jats, we need everybody's opinion to validate our opinion.I will soon join this group too. I appriciate Ravi's efforts but would like to know the sources of the enormous data produced with names of the people, location, dates. It appears like a "aankhon dekha haal"

ranjitjat
December 2nd, 2002, 04:08 AM
Dear Nitin & Raviji
Both of you are doing a wonderful job.
I want to know how the data protection rule will apply ?
How the copyright act will apply?
Who will be legal owner of these site?
This is community project or business venture in near future?
Lots of people making web sites with same aims- How the data-protection & copy right will apply.
If the idea is community service than - it will be better if create one good site or at least under one board or mangement . Other wise too many chiefs& no Indian- worker or members
Nayeeyo ki bharat mae sabhi THAKUR
bali batt nn ho jaye.
Your view please.

urmiladuhan
December 2nd, 2002, 06:45 AM
Dharmpal Singh Dudee (Dec 01, 2002 05:38 p.m.):

Dear Nitin & Raviji

Both of you are doing a wonderful job.

I want to know how the data protection rule will apply ?

How the copyright act will apply?

Who will be legal owner of these site?

This is community project or business venture in near future?





DUDEE JEE, THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I WAS THINKING. I AM GLAD YOU BROUGHT IT UP. I WOULD WANT TO KNOW THE PURPOSE OF HAVING THE SITE- IS IT A COMMUNITY SERVICE OR THERE ARE

BUSINESS MOTIVES BEHIND. AND IF THERE ARE COMMERCIAL INTERESTS THEN THE CONTRIBURORS TO THE SITE MUST BE PAID ALSO JUST LIKE ARTICLE WRITERS IN A MAGAZINE. THERE SHOULD BE 2-3 LINES ON EVERY PAGE OF THE SITE SAYING THAT THE ORIGINAL OPINIONS AND VIEWS PRESENTED ARE ASSUMED TO BE COPYWRITED BY THE AUTHORS AND ANYONE REPRODUCING THEM OUTSIDE OF THIS SITE SHOULD OBTAIN PERMISSION FROM THE AUTHORS AND THE MANAGEMENT.

VOLUNTARY AND REASONABLE CONTRIBUTIONS SHOUL

BE ENCOURAGED BUT CHARGING MEMBERS TO COME ON BOARD WOULD NOT BE A GOOD IDEA.



Lots of people making web sites with same aims- How the data-protection & copy right will apply.

If the idea is community service than - it will be better if create one good site or at least under one board or mangement . Other wise too many chiefs& no Indian- worker or members

Nayeeyo ki bharat mae sabhi THAKUR

bali batt nn ho jaye.

Your view please.

shokeen123
December 2nd, 2002, 08:41 AM
Urmila (Dec 01, 2002 08:15 p.m.):

Dharmpal Singh Dudee (Dec 01, 2002 05:38 p.m.):

VOLUNTARY AND REASONABLE ONTRIBUTIONS SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED BUT CHARGING MEMBERS TO COME ON BOARD WOULD NOT BE A GOOD IDEA.

Your view please.

Need some clarification here. What kind of contribution or charges are we talking about? Intellectual (Jat history literature) or monetary?

ravichaudhary
December 2nd, 2002, 09:55 AM
To answer your questions and to add some of my own.

I see this discussion group

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

as a clearinghouse for Jat history, i.e. history with a Jat perspective.

The discussion is part of Yahoo Groups, which is a free service.

Many other, over 10,000, discussion groups in use that service - see discussions,

Arguments on the accuracy and lack of accuracy of information, something that is happening right now, and has been on going since time immemorial, and will continue.

The information is open to the public, so If someone chooses to use the information and write a book, he/she is welcome to do so, and I will encourage it, the more numbers who take an interest and write books on our culture and history the more, I will encourage it.

Eventually what I hope to see is that through the Jatland site, we can reach sufficient people, who will then sponsor a few chairs in Jat studies in universities in India and Abroad.

It is at that point out culture will have come into its own. We are quite some distance from that at this time. Our studies in our history are just beginning.

When someone writes a book or a thesis all they are required to do is to give credit to their sources, and within reason that is all a scholar can expect.

I would like the Jat land server as a depository, accessible to all scholars( eventually)

This kind of archiving is happening already at various university sites, but we have no chair of Jat History, so who will take an interest??

But even though this is an amateur attempt, better an amateur attempt to gather our data than no attempt at all.

So there you are -- free to all, if some of you wish to use the information to write a - for profit book, please go ahead

Ravi


P.s. Let me give one example of a developing argument, which will develop.

The Islamic onslaught, despite the five hundred years of resistance successful in our country. Most of the resistance was by the Jats, Jat people, and Jat monarchs.

Yet this is never acknowledged. It is treated as Hindu resistance, Rajput resistance, even brahminical resistance.

Even our Jat rulers of Kabul the Shahi, Sahi, Kings are Brahminized, and the legend cooked up on the basis of a single stray comment by Alberuni, that a Brahmin named Kallar took over the Kingship, and thus started the Brahmin Shahi Hindu Dynasty.

Well that is not correct, but all your Indian history books give out that story.
How do you correct it.

I hope on that discussion group to have these argued out with Non jat Scholars. And those of us who can contribute to those discussion with evidence and data will be appreciated. From the rest moral support is enough.

Our History is now also taking on an international flavour, and if I have something to with it, I will continue to broadcast how the Jats spread all over Central Asia to Europe, and their clan names can be found as far afar as Scotland - Gill, D(h) illon, for example.

In Kashmir after the advent of Muslim rule circa 1300 AD, Sanskrit was the official administration language, and the administration was run by the Kayastha and Brahmin community.

With the spread of the Muslim rule in other parts of the country, the same repeats itself.

Administration cannot run without administrators, and the Jat rulers were replaced but the administrators stayed on, except that they served their now masters, even better than they served their old masters.

This is repeated when the British established their rule, the administration did not change, the clerks, the munshis, they simply continued and acted as a barrier a go between the new ruler and the population who had resisted the invader.

( ask your grandparents of how they were persecuted at the hands of the Hindu petty officials who acted as the go between to the British officials since 1857)

The Jat population suffered twice, once a defeat at the hands of the invader, and the subsequent, slaughter, loot and rapine, and secondly the ongoing exploitation at the hands of the petty administrators who were not Muslim but Hindu.

Anyone, who has had to pay the Chaprassi to see the local Distract Magistrate, will understand immediately what I a talking about.

Where would you like this discussion to occur on the Jatland.com site or on another site, with a firewall between the two?

Feedback welcome.

urmiladuhan
December 2nd, 2002, 11:35 AM
Sujata (Dec 01, 2002 10:11 p.m.):


Urmila (Dec 01, 2002 08:15 p.m.):


Dharmpal Singh Dudee (Dec 01, 2002 05:38 p.m.):



VOLUNTARY AND REASONABLE ONTRIBUTIONS SHOULD BE ENCOURAGED BUT CHARGING MEMBERS TO COME ON BOARD WOULD NOT BE A GOOD IDEA.



Your view please.



Need some clarification here. What kind of contribution or charges are we talking about? Intellectual (Jat history literature) or monetary?



IF THIS SITE'S GOALS ARE PURELY NON PROFIT BY WHICH I MEAN THE LONG TERM GOALS ARE EXCLUSIVELY' COMMUNITY SERVICE', I AS A MEMBER, WOULD NOT MIND CONTRIBUTING MONETARILY BESIDES ALL WAYS IN MY CONTROL THAT MAY DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY HELP IN THIS CAUSE .

ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE LONG TERM GOALS

INCLUDE USING THIS ONLINE JAT GATHERING FOR SELECTIVE MEMBER'S PROFIT, I WOULD LOOK FOR ALTERNATIVE WAYS TO BE PART OF MY COMMUNITY AS MY PERSONAL GOALS ARE TO GIVE SOMETHING BACK AFTER HAVING LIVED OFF THIS COMMUNITY ALL MY LIFE.

I DO NOT BELIEVE IN DOING BUSINESS UNDER COMMUNITY SERVICE COVER AND THEREFORE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF THIS IS A BUSINESS VENTURE ALTHOUGH I WISH IT ISN'T. IF IT IS, VISITING THE SITE AND THE PARICIPATION OF MEMBERS BECOMES A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME AND SHOULD BE DEALT IN AN APPROPRIATE BUSINESS LIKE MANNER.

I WOULD LIKE TO ELABORATE ON THIS MATTER ONCE

I HEAR FROM THE MODERATORS.

:)

ranjitjat
December 3rd, 2002, 04:22 AM
Dear All
I am a moderator but jat land is a mistry for me so far---
Now we have 2 mistry another one Yahoo jat history groups
I am sorry to say all this.

ranjitjat
December 3rd, 2002, 05:50 AM
Dear Ravi ji
Please tell us about yourself.
your interest & yahoo interest in this venture.
Why yahoo is giving free information to public?
If that information is free & you put all history books on site- than how the writers will get benefit.
Why people will buy the books?
What is the point of writing a book- when data is there on yahoo?
What about copy right ?
If the aim is to start a Jat history chair in well known university through discussion on jatland
than start that here and now.
Why go round & round on yahoo than again discuss on jatland.
Yah tau baniya bali 3 khaee hue
ky jat kisi mae tao ulaj ky padaga.
I hope you will not mind a simple jat thinking.
this is not only me mostly people feel this way.

urmiladuhan
December 3rd, 2002, 06:35 AM
Unless somebody clarifies the questions posed in this thread, i cannot help but come up with more questions. Members come on the board because of the presence of other members and not just to 'see' the site- so to be able to exchange their ideas with other Jats. If we look closely enough, we members are actually running the site ourselves !(idea input, monetary input- if i am not wrong, one of our members paid for yearly cost). In this scenario, why should the members be charged unless it is a voluntary contribution for a specific reason such as purchase of new software etc? This makes me think the site could be a business venture as it has been indirectly mentioned in one of the recent posts. I am absolutley not in favor of having one person burdened with all responsibility of running the site if the site is a service to the community.

urmiladuhan
December 3rd, 2002, 06:41 AM
Dharmpal Singh Dudee (Dec 02, 2002 07:20 p.m.):
Dear Ravi ji
Please tell us about yourself.
your interest & yahoo interest in this venture.
Why yahoo is giving free information to public?
If that information is free & you put all history books on site- than how the writers will get benefit.I THINK EVEN IF SOMEBODY TRIES TO STEAL DATED MATERIAL FROM FREE WEBSITES, THEY ARE NOT CONSIDERED RELIABLE UNLESS THE SOURCE OF THE INFORMATION IS QUOTED-- OR ARE YOU SUGGESTING A CASE OF PLAGIARISM? NOW THAT IS POSSIBLE.
Why people will buy the books?
BECAUSE BOOKS ARE AUTHENTIC. WEBSITE MATERIAL IS NOT.
What is the point of writing a book- when data is there on yahoo?
What about copy right ?
If the aim is to start a Jat history chair in well known university through discussion on jatland
than start that here and now.I THINK RAVI CHAUDHARY GAVE A REASONING THAT ON YAHOO WEBSITE EVEN NONJATS CAN COME AND PARTICIPATE AND THERFORE HISTORIC VALIDATION WILL BE EASIER.
Why go round & round on yahoo than again discuss on jatland.
Yah tau baniya bali 3 khaee hue
ky jat kisi mae tao ulaj ky padaga.
I hope you will not mind a simple jat thinking.
this is not only me mostly people feel this way.

ravichaudhary
December 3rd, 2002, 09:16 AM
Let me clarify to Urmila, Dudhijee and others.

First I am not interested in stepping on anyone's toes.

I see the yahoo group discussion group, simply as an extension of this excellent site.

Those who have been there will see that the first link entered is to the Jatland.com site.

That is just a group I started, because I felt a need for an academically oriented study circle. Like a discussion group some one might form for discussion of say gardening or space, science, cricket or Hindi literature.

There is no exclusiveness there, or to prevent anyone from continuing their posts and discussion here. Please continue to do so, and I will also participate.

My interest In Jat History goes back some fifteen years and it was a big Zero then, and frankly has not gone up much since then. I have a long way to go.

I participate in other discussion groups and continue to run into negative barrages and persons' negative or derogatory view of our history.

I then decided to form that study circle, where I and other like minded persons could explore our History, act as a resource to each other, and correct the views others have long held about us.

Any information in that group is available to all comers, with appropriate credits. It is an open group , open to all.

It cannot do what this group can do.

Dudhijee asks : if you wish to create a chair for history, why not start here.

I have done just that, I have mentioned the idea, Dudhijee has picked up it, let us see how much interest and resources we can develop.


That is all, No more and no less.

******

Dudhijee asks who am I.

Briefly I am from the Meerut area, Solanki by Gotra.

I studied In St Stephen's Delhi, have an MBA from Calcutta.

I left India in 1975, became a CA in England, and have been living in Toronto since 1982. I have a wife, Jaya, her Gotra is Dalal ( from the Bulandshahr area) two daughters (11 & 7) and a son. (4).

I run a Management and Business Development operation.


Ravi

ranjitjat
December 3rd, 2002, 05:55 PM
Ravi ji
Welcome & thank you for your interest.
I like face to face talk.
Now we know you so feel free to discuss any thing.
what ever you & other saying is correct- but we have no proof or written history by a jat or a Indian.
JAGA- BHATT story about every gotra is wrong.
When I said Maharaja Surajmal is a Yadav vansi jat- people including jats make a good joke of it. I told them the source& book. But they say this is only jatgatha.
what is your view please.

ranjitjat
December 3rd, 2002, 05:59 PM
Urmila ji
Thank you sharing caring your views.

urmiladuhan
December 3rd, 2002, 11:48 PM
Dharmpal Singh Dudee (Dec 03, 2002 07:29 a.m.):
Urmila ji
Thank you sharing caring your views.

IT SEEMS TO ME, THE PROBABILITY OF GETTING AN ANSWER TO MY QUESTIONS IS BLEAK.

urmiladuhan
December 4th, 2002, 12:07 AM
[quote]Ravi Chaudhary (Dec 02, 2002 10:46 p.m.):
Let me clarify to Urmila, Dudhijee and others.

First I am not interested in stepping on anyone's toes.
PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG! I DO NOT AT ALL THINK YOUR MOTIVES ARE ANYTHING BUT TO EDUCATE AND FILL JATS WITH HIGH MORALE. I AM TRYING TO GET ANSWERS TO MY OWN QUESTIONS BY INTERACTING WITH MEMBERS. I AM SORRY IF MY COMMENTS CAME TO YOU OTHERWISE.

URMILA.

urmiladuhan
December 4th, 2002, 11:30 PM
IF THIS SITE'S GOALS ARE PURELY NON PROFIT BY WHICH I MEAN THE LONG TERM GOALS ARE EXCLUSIVELY' COMMUNITY SERVICE', I AS A MEMBER, WOULD NOT MIND CONTRIBUTING MONETARILY BESIDES ALL WAYS IN MY CONTROL THAT MAY DIRECTLY OR INDIRECTLY HELP IN THIS CAUSE .



ON THE OTHER HAND, IF THE LONG TERM GOALS



INCLUDE USING THIS ONLINE JAT GATHERING FOR SELECTIVE MEMBER'S PROFIT, I WOULD LOOK FOR ALTERNATIVE WAYS TO BE PART OF MY COMMUNITY AS MY PERSONAL GOALS ARE TO GIVE SOMETHING BACK AFTER HAVING LIVED OFF THIS COMMUNITY ALL MY LIFE.



I DO NOT BELIEVE IN DOING BUSINESS UNDER COMMUNITY SERVICE COVER AND THEREFORE WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF THIS IS A BUSINESS VENTURE ALTHOUGH I WISH IT ISN'T. IF IT IS, VISITING THE SITE AND THE PARICIPATION OF MEMBERS BECOMES A WHOLE DIFFERENT BALL GAME AND SHOULD BE DEALT IN AN APPROPRIATE BUSINESS LIKE MANNER.



I WOULD LIKE TO ELABORATE ON THIS MATTER ONCE



I HEAR FROM THE MODERATORS.

********************************************

IS NOBODY ELSE ON BOARD INTERESTED IN KNOWING

THE ANSWER? OR IS THAT THAT IT IS ALREADY KNOWN TO OTHER MEMBERS- IF SO PLEASE LET ME KNOW TOO. MONEY ISSUES ARE USUALLY UNCOMFORTAVLE AND STICKY TO BRING UP.. HENCE IT SHOULD BE PREVENTED FROM BEING THE BONE OF

CONTENTION BY BEING VERY CLEAR ABOUT IT TO EVERYONE CONCERNED.

ravichaudhary
December 5th, 2002, 04:33 AM
Urmilla

There seems to be some confusion here.

I started this topic and it relates to a history discussion group I have formed on the Yahoo groups.

The URL is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

I formed the group for discussion with some like-minded people of Jat History and to develop a more comprehensive positive image of our people.

It is not connected with Jatland.com or any other group but is open to all. It is free too.

I found Jatland.com site through the web, and like what I saw, that a group of people had formed a site where Jats could get together and discuss various affairs, and so on.

In my discussion I would like to have as many Jats who wish to participate, do so.

The information is available to all including members of Jatland. Com. and have an enjoyable experience at the same time.

If some one wished to use our material to write a for profit book they are welcome.

We need many more Jat historians.

If your concern is with the finances of Jatland.com you should start another thread( topic)


I cannot answer any question you may have.

Ravi

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/