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sanjaychhikara
March 12th, 2003, 08:29 PM
Worth reading, there are some right and wrong things in this article;

Before I shifted to Gurgaon, I was in Mahipalpur for quite some time. Though this village-town comes within outer Delhi in your Atlas books, it can be any village of Haryana or for that matter any hard-core mohalla of Gurgaon.

The place was populated by jaats, jaats and more jaats. These people have a lot of money because of the accidental providence of their ancestral lands coming under the much-in-demand "real estate". In spite of it all, it was difficult to find any city-like veneer, that very-Dilli like sophistication, that characterizes most Punjabis living this side of the Vindhyas.

Though if you looked hard enough and heeded the gossip of your maids, you could discover other vices of the rich like nightly boozing binges and raunchy parties – then of course, there were those unmistakable Maruti Esteems or Tata Sumos in every house-hold to herald the financial slot they belonged to.

Perhaps the most intriguing part of my brief stay there, was the kind of jaat women I got to see. I saw mothers on the wrong side of forty and old beetle-nut chewing sixty-year old buas and mausis. I also saw five-year old little girls with ribbons in their hair and a twinkle in their eyes. But I never saw any young sixteen or seventeen year olds. Even the occasional passing by of a young wife escorted by an uncomfortable husband was a rarity.

I found the whole thing rather strange. Inspite of all the external trappings of the urban rich, like designer clothes and fast cars and foreign holidays, females in a jaat society are a very sad lot, besides being grossly neglected and largely ignored.

Their place is within the domain of their homes and no sooner do they reach puberty, they are put within the confines of an unspoken law that governs every jaat woman – no moving out without an escort and for a damned good reason, too! No having your opinion, no speaking your mind, no this and no that!

They have no power to come out of their households to view the world after their own fashion. And even if they do, it is with their faces draped so completely with dupattas that mullahs in Taliban Afghanistan will be put to shame.

What are the reasons? In my opinion, it is lack of education. No thrust towards female empowerment. Just too much male-domination!

Times have changed but why do the jaats linger behind?

Why does all this easy money go only into tandoori chikans, big showy cars and phoren-daaru, alone?

Perhaps, they will take another fifty years to get used to their money and look beyond it - to the real issues. Until then, their poor women shall languish behind that dupatta!

By Rajkamal Dhaiya
http://www.gurgaonharyana.com/socialsector.htm

saroj
March 13th, 2003, 04:02 AM
It is a very touching issue for our Indian community. We might don’t know how this “Dupatta’ business came into our society or don’t need to know the whole history but now it seems a barricade to get over it. We Indian live in double standard. If we want to change the custom, we can do it easily. Let me tell you about my own family story. My eldest brother got marriage in 1972 and girl’s party was talking about dowry. My father said to them “I don’t want any thing, I have only one wish that is my daughter in-law should not cover her face”. The father of bride, who was a gazetted officer, didn’t like the idea but he agreed. I remembered it clearly at the bride house the whole village came to see that how the girl was going to go without covering the face”. After that we all sibling got marriage like that every time my father fought for our freedom. Now our second-generation time come the “prada” is still there. Four years back, my niece got marriage and again my father told her in-laws same old thing like the one he did for his own children. In our family women are free from this prada. My father did it living in the same society so any one can do it. Nowadays an interesting thing is each marriage party uses the video camera and at the time no one covers the face including elderly women but once the marriage rituals over they all cover their face, which I don’t under stand. Can any one explain it to me?

scsheorayan
March 13th, 2003, 06:58 AM
Thanks Saroj ji,

Your father must be a progressive man. We need more Jats like that. The reason why Parda is still there is because of resistance to change. Also there is certain hesitation on the part of women. With the education it should change and I will be surprised to see an educated girl following the dictates of elder women (Believe it is women who are bent up on seeing their Bahus in Parda because they have done so themselves). Next time you see an educated girl in Parda talk to her mother inlaw and let us all hear her response.

Good luck!

saroj
March 13th, 2003, 07:21 AM
Sheorayan bhaishb,

You are absolutely right. This issue covers the mother in-laws field. They don’t want to see their bahus’ in different shoes. So we can openly say that women are ruling women.

With regards.

Saroj

artikundu
March 13th, 2003, 07:29 AM
hi!
being a jat girl i want to say something in this regard.it is not mother-in -law's who has to blame but it is there education which is a big hurdle.if a women is educated then she can understand the importance of freedom.u can even see from stats how many jat girls r in proffesional colleges,how many girls are going for higher studies?but we never thought of providing them education but blaming there in law's or like that?education is must for them and only then we can think of any change.

saroj
March 13th, 2003, 08:04 AM
Hi Arti,

I don’t know what to say you on this regard. You are a young person and can argue with it. I have even seen well-educated women who want their daughter-in-laws to follow their pattern. It will change but in very slow pace. Now educated girls don’t have time for their family. So it is a catch twenty-two situation. This is our personal attitude that makes thing according to our wish not only through the education. Saroj

sanjaychhikara
March 13th, 2003, 01:02 PM
I think this is the right time to get rid of this dupatta so called tradition or it would never happen!!!
I have red that the dupatta came with the Muslims invaders to India (I am not sure if I am right.) so why are we still obeying to it? Men and women should have equal rights, that’s where we have to fight & stand for!

Godara ji your father did the right thing; he was way ahead of the rest.

shokeen123
March 14th, 2003, 01:06 AM
Sanjay:

I had read this article almost year and a half ago. Somehow the word "Taliban" didn't seem to fit my vocabulary. And although there was/is a lot of truth in it, a Jat woman advocating or endorsing such an article would sure have ruffled a lots of feathers! Imagine a sleuth of derogatory attempts on my bold views; therefore, I waited for the right time to come. Right time? I am not sure when the magic word “right” will come for many of the Jat issues, so for now I would emphasize in the context of this article.

So, for argument’s sake let’s believe the practice was enforced to honor the elders of the family? In fairness to our older generation, they have performed the most humble act of preserving the tradition. For them there wasn’t a choice -- it was a norm. How can one not achieve that with the face unveiled? I am also aware that in the olden days it was used as a protective mechanism to safeguard the women from evil influence, but I fail to understand the logic in today’s society?

You are right (including all who have denounced the purdah practice), the time has come to interface with the truth and let our women enjoy certain freedom. It doesn’t matter who the guilty party (mother-in-law, father-in-law, community, or the Jat woman herself) in promoting this age-old rigid custom, it is time to let go of the double standards.

Gosh, have any one of you humans (male or female) ever tried keeping your face covered all day long just to be accepted by your community? Imagine working in the fields with scorching heat; imagine carrying a water pitcher (matka) on your head, balancing it with grace and tread the uneven alleyways! Imagine a wedding or other social ceremony faces beaming with happiness, but for the sulky daughter-in-law who works her way around wrapped in the veil! Imagine a family portrait without a name and a face! Try this as an experiment for a day ….no just for a few minutes, and feel the suffocation! It is absolutely disgusting and degrading! Some public health studies have even suggested association between osteomalacia (lack of Vitamin D), higher prevalence of tuberculosis, and purdah.

None of the women in my family practice this custom any longer. The younger daughters-in-law don’t even cover their heads, let alone covering the face! One has to be mindful of the resistance, but it will start one family at a time. Thank you for bringing this topic to the forefront!

ranjitjat
March 14th, 2003, 05:21 AM
Saroj Ji.
Your father done the right thing.
I done same thing in our family & village 40 years ago.
This is a evil custom. We must get read of this- dupata- sooner the better.
Yah aagayanta ka ghughat- parda - DUPATA HH
Isako gayan ki agani mae havan karky- aandhi mae uda a do- OM SUWAA 3

ishwarlamba
March 14th, 2003, 06:46 AM
Saroj Ji & Sujata Ji,
Well done
We need your direction. Both of you keep writing on these issues, we need it badly for our sleeping community.
Regards

saroj
March 14th, 2003, 06:58 AM
Dudee Bhaishab,

Thanks for your support. This is a good advice out there for our young readers who are still unmarried can follow the mantra “OM SUWAA 3” and live a long happily life together.

With kind regards.
Saroj

sansanwalamit
March 14th, 2003, 07:02 AM
I was trying my best to avoid speaking on this issue but after reading some views I could not help it ......with all due respect to everyone and especially women of my community I am giving some basic personal views over this custom of Ghoongat ........firstly I come from a family where this issue was dealt with in my parents generation itself .....and it is based on any individual's choice to do it or not thus I have never ever seen any conflict in my life regarding this rather just heard stories about it from my mother and aunts....
being a boy I may not understand women's plight as well as girls do .....but I have always been interested that how did it start ...if we look at our Indian history then we see that we have adopted it in much later stages and the reasons which were given are like this .....
1. to save our women from moslem invaders....as they coudlnt distinguish a young woman form an old one due to parda ....
2. as our society has seen a tremendous decline in values thus to avoid any eye to eye contact between women of the house and men.....so that no stupidity happens ......
3. this makes most sense to me but it was never we went to extremes of this by covering the whole face .......to give due respect to your elders ....just like in front of God when everyone covers their hair ......but I dont know why covering of the face is regarded as giving respect .....
I dont know anymore of reasons......but when I see women not understanding it totally and speaking up against it ......I dont understand why they do so ....I mean why women are like this .......why do they have so many conflicts within themselves ........and after all it is a matter of choice........ if you choose to uncover your hair then why do you forget that someone chooses to see you with covered hair .....I am surely down with covering your face but if an elderly doesnt feel comfortable with your uncovered hair then why cant you do just this bit ......now if a woman is educated she certainly has more right to make her opinion then someone who didnt do much in her life and just ended up as like most of them do.....if you are standing on your own feet then you are a master of your own but if you are dependent on someone then you should believe in co existing .....learn to appreciate others choices and ask them to appreciate yours ....I hope I am understood well here .....girls of my generation do not have much of problem with parda as much as they have problems in having someone else making choices for them .....parda is just a part of it ...and I totally feel that if they are doing better in their lives ....they are earning ...they are educated then they have all the right to make their choice and they should fight for it just like me and you ......thus parda becomes a secondary issue here ......now to bring it back I would say something about girls of my generation .....every girl knows that she cannnot be comfortable while wearing shorts in most of delhi area.....thus they do not do so ....but then how can these same girls expect someone else to be comfortable while seeing them bare headed when this idea is as much revealing to them as wearing shorts for them in delhi ...isnt wearing shorts asking for trouble in delhi so wouldnt being bare headed would be the samething in certain areas .......all I am trying to say is that we should respect each others choices .....not just blindly look at ours ...samething goes for the other side who force someone to cover their face ..thus it is wrong to call some custom all evil or root of evils or sign of not being educated .......I come from a well educated family too and as I said my generation is free to do what they want ..there is no chachi, bhabhi or sister of mine who is uneducated or who hasnt got her own stand ....I also have women from other community and even race (non Indians) in my family and you will be surprised noone ever asked them to cover their hair but they all do ...only in front of elders or in the streets of my village .....and then there are some elders in my family who ask them not to do so in front of them as that makes them feel real old and they dont do so in front of them ....thus noone forced anyone and everyone is happy .....from my dadi to my bhabhi .....now where does the attrocity go ...imagine had their been any force used from any side ....any sort of immaturity from any side nothing would have been the way it is ........and you can see education also brings the talent to deal with the ones who are uneducated .......thus please try to understand why our customs are like that ......throwing them over your head only means that you didnt understand them well .....their is surely nothing wrong with covering your head if someone feels happy by doing so ........bare heads arent a symbol of education or freedom .....purda is surely an attrocity well that is going down and will be over for sure ......but one shoudlnt forget to co exist and respect and courtsey for others choices ....and last but certainly not the least ....being educated doesnt mean getting a license to fight and regard your predessors as uneducated lot .....because of them you are their and because of you they will go further ....never forget that .....

singhkapoor
March 14th, 2003, 07:03 AM
SAROJ JI

a topic worth the discussion. Thanx for bringing it up.

SUJATA JI ....very well said.

Thanx

sansanwalamit
March 14th, 2003, 07:05 AM
and I have a question .....are their some non jat dahiyas too ...I mean I couldnt digest that this article is written by a jat ...I mean how can someone be so narrow minded and compare jat socitey with taliban and that to with ones own community ......who lets such artiles get published without even editing them well .....this surely hurts my sentiments and even more when I see a JAT wrote it......

amar0974
March 14th, 2003, 11:53 AM
Good Amit.........Well Said, Bahut Badhia Likha Bhai, Ye Sub Waisey ta Apney Iccha pa nirbhar ha par koi parivar ka bada bujurg apni ijjat ya samman isa ma samja sa ke uskey bahu parda karey to merey khayal sey isma koch galat nahi ha. Koi Bahar Ka Bhey Gharan Aawa ta Kam sey Kam Chorri ma ar Bahu ma kuch ta alag Pehchan howney a chaheye, Kyonkey marey gail ta ek issa kissa ho bhey raha sa ek ba ma kesey risteydarey ma ek ta milan gaya jo merey ta umar ma chota tha ib un ka bahu parda na kara karti ar ughadey ser phira they ta mana socha ya choori hogi mana us tahi ka deya key - Babey (Sister) Ram Ram, ib usna socha key koye uskey gaam ta aaya sa ar wa usa taria baat cheet karan laaggey. Kul mila ka jab taahi baat clear hoye acha khasa drama sa ban gaa. Usdin mana bhey socha ke badey bujurga na neyam kuch soch samaj ka a banaye sa.

sanjaychhikara
March 14th, 2003, 01:54 PM
Amit Sansanwal (Mar 13, 2003 08:35 p.m.):
and I have a question .....are their some non jat dahiyas too ...I mean I couldnt digest that this article is written by a jat ...I mean how can someone be so narrow minded and compare jat socitey with taliban and that to with ones own community ......who lets such artiles get published without even editing them well .....this surely hurts my sentiments and even more when I see a JAT wrote it......

Dear all,
This is (like Amit) also keeping my mind busy how can a fellow Jat bhai comparing us with Taliban, we are far from that! But that’s doesn’t justify our dupatta tradition nowadays!

Everyone has their own choice, (/quote) (Sujata Bua ji) but I fail to understand the logic in today’s society? (/quote).

First of all men in India should change their attitude towards women, we are not living in the 17th century anymore.
In Europe or other western countries they don’t have a tradition that women should keep their face cofferd, that’s is why women there are making such progress. But the final choice is of the women in India itself men shouldn't make that decision for them; they (women) should do what’s comfortable for them in a situation.

artikundu
March 14th, 2003, 03:44 PM
don't u think so they we can give respect to our elders by various other things rather then covering our heads.or it is the only way of showing respect and if so then how men show there respect and what about other socities where this system is not there ,meaning they didnot show respect to there elders.and mind it now we r not staying in any muslim arena.
atlast what i want to say that"RESPECT SHULD LIES IN UR HEART ".






Amit Sansanwal (Mar 13, 2003 08:32 p.m.):
I was trying my best to avoid speaking on this issue but after reading some views I could not help it ......with all due respect to everyone and especially women of my community I am giving some basic personal views over this custom of Ghoongat ........firstly I come from a family where this issue was dealt with in my parents generation itself .....and it is based on any individual's choice to do it or not thus I have never ever seen any conflict in my life regarding this rather just heard stories about it from my mother and aunts....
being a boy I may not understand women's plight as well as girls do .....but I have always been interested that how did it start ...if we look at our Indian history then we see that we have adopted it in much later stages and the reasons which were given are like this .....
1. to save our women from moslem invaders....as they coudlnt distinguish a young woman form an old one due to parda ....
2. as our society has seen a tremendous decline in values thus to avoid any eye to eye contact between women of the house and men.....so that no stupidity happens ......
3. this makes most sense to me but it was never we went to extremes of this by covering the whole face .......to give due respect to your elders ....just like in front of God when everyone covers their hair ......but I dont know why covering of the face is regarded as giving respect .....
I dont know anymore of reasons......but when I see women not understanding it totally and speaking up against it ......I dont understand why they do so ....I mean why women are like this .......why do they have so many conflicts within themselves ........and after all it is a matter of choice........ if you choose to uncover your hair then why do you forget that someone chooses to see you with covered hair .....I am surely down with covering your face but if an elderly doesnt feel comfortable with your uncovered hair then why cant you do just this bit ......now if a woman is educated she certainly has more right to make her opinion then someone who didnt do much in her life and just ended up as like most of them do.....if you are standing on your own feet then you are a master of your own but if you are dependent on someone then you should believe in co existing .....learn to appreciate others choices and ask them to appreciate yours ....I hope I am understood well here .....girls of my generation do not have much of problem with parda as much as they have problems in having someone else making choices for them .....parda is just a part of it ...and I totally feel that if they are doing better in their lives ....they are earning ...they are educated then they have all the right to make their choice and they should fight for it just like me and you ......thus parda becomes a secondary issue here ......now to bring it back I would say something about girls of my generation .....every girl knows that she cannnot be comfortable while wearing shorts in most of delhi area.....thus they do not do so ....but then how can these same girls expect someone else to be comfortable while seeing them bare headed when this idea is as much revealing to them as wearing shorts for them in delhi ...isnt wearing shorts asking for trouble in delhi so wouldnt being bare headed would be the samething in certain areas .......all I am trying to say is that we should respect each others choices .....not just blindly look at ours ...samething goes for the other side who force someone to cover their face ..thus it is wrong to call some custom all evil or root of evils or sign of not being educated .......I come from a well educated family too and as I said my generation is free to do what they want ..there is no chachi, bhabhi or sister of mine who is uneducated or who hasnt got her own stand ....I also have women from other community and even race (non Indians) in my family and you will be surprised noone ever asked them to cover their hair but they all do ...only in front of elders or in the streets of my village .....and then there are some elders in my family who ask them not to do so in front of them as that makes them feel real old and they dont do so in front of them ....thus noone forced anyone and everyone is happy .....from my dadi to my bhabhi .....now where does the attrocity go ...imagine had their been any force used from any side ....any sort of immaturity from any side nothing would have been the way it is ........and you can see education also brings the talent to deal with the ones who are uneducated .......thus please try to understand why our customs are like that ......throwing them over your head only means that you didnt understand them well .....their is surely nothing wrong with covering your head if someone feels happy by doing so ........bare heads arent a symbol of education or freedom .....purda is surely an attrocity well that is going down and will be over for sure ......but one shoudlnt forget to co exist and respect and courtsey for others choices ....and last but certainly not the least ....being educated doesnt mean getting a license to fight and regard your predessors as uneducated lot .....because of them you are their and because of you they will go further ....never forget that .....

artikundu
March 14th, 2003, 03:45 PM
don't u think so they we can give respect to our elders by various other things rather then covering our heads.or it is the only way of showing respect and if so then how men show there respect and what about other socities where this system is not there ,meaning they didnot show respect to there elders.and mind it now we r not staying in any muslim arena.
atlast what i want to say that"RESPECT SHULD LIES IN UR HEART ".






Amit Sansanwal (Mar 13, 2003 08:32 p.m.):
I was trying my best to avoid speaking on this issue but after reading some views I could not help it ......with all due respect to everyone and especially women of my community I am giving some basic personal views over this custom of Ghoongat ........firstly I come from a family where this issue was dealt with in my parents generation itself .....and it is based on any individual's choice to do it or not thus I have never ever seen any conflict in my life regarding this rather just heard stories about it from my mother and aunts....
being a boy I may not understand women's plight as well as girls do .....but I have always been interested that how did it start ...if we look at our Indian history then we see that we have adopted it in much later stages and the reasons which were given are like this .....
1. to save our women from moslem invaders....as they coudlnt distinguish a young woman form an old one due to parda ....
2. as our society has seen a tremendous decline in values thus to avoid any eye to eye contact between women of the house and men.....so that no stupidity happens ......
3. this makes most sense to me but it was never we went to extremes of this by covering the whole face .......to give due respect to your elders ....just like in front of God when everyone covers their hair ......but I dont know why covering of the face is regarded as giving respect .....
I dont know anymore of reasons......but when I see women not understanding it totally and speaking up against it ......I dont understand why they do so ....I mean why women are like this .......why do they have so many conflicts within themselves ........and after all it is a matter of choice........ if you choose to uncover your hair then why do you forget that someone chooses to see you with covered hair .....I am surely down with covering your face but if an elderly doesnt feel comfortable with your uncovered hair then why cant you do just this bit ......now if a woman is educated she certainly has more right to make her opinion then someone who didnt do much in her life and just ended up as like most of them do.....if you are standing on your own feet then you are a master of your own but if you are dependent on someone then you should believe in co existing .....learn to appreciate others choices and ask them to appreciate yours ....I hope I am understood well here .....girls of my generation do not have much of problem with parda as much as they have problems in having someone else making choices for them .....parda is just a part of it ...and I totally feel that if they are doing better in their lives ....they are earning ...they are educated then they have all the right to make their choice and they should fight for it just like me and you ......thus parda becomes a secondary issue here ......now to bring it back I would say something about girls of my generation .....every girl knows that she cannnot be comfortable while wearing shorts in most of delhi area.....thus they do not do so ....but then how can these same girls expect someone else to be comfortable while seeing them bare headed when this idea is as much revealing to them as wearing shorts for them in delhi ...isnt wearing shorts asking for trouble in delhi so wouldnt being bare headed would be the samething in certain areas .......all I am trying to say is that we should respect each others choices .....not just blindly look at ours ...samething goes for the other side who force someone to cover their face ..thus it is wrong to call some custom all evil or root of evils or sign of not being educated .......I come from a well educated family too and as I said my generation is free to do what they want ..there is no chachi, bhabhi or sister of mine who is uneducated or who hasnt got her own stand ....I also have women from other community and even race (non Indians) in my family and you will be surprised noone ever asked them to cover their hair but they all do ...only in front of elders or in the streets of my village .....and then there are some elders in my family who ask them not to do so in front of them as that makes them feel real old and they dont do so in front of them ....thus noone forced anyone and everyone is happy .....from my dadi to my bhabhi .....now where does the attrocity go ...imagine had their been any force used from any side ....any sort of immaturity from any side nothing would have been the way it is ........and you can see education also brings the talent to deal with the ones who are uneducated .......thus please try to understand why our customs are like that ......throwing them over your head only means that you didnt understand them well .....their is surely nothing wrong with covering your head if someone feels happy by doing so ........bare heads arent a symbol of education or freedom .....purda is surely an attrocity well that is going down and will be over for sure ......but one shoudlnt forget to co exist and respect and courtsey for others choices ....and last but certainly not the least ....being educated doesnt mean getting a license to fight and regard your predessors as uneducated lot .....because of them you are their and because of you they will go further ....never forget that .....

sansanwalamit
March 14th, 2003, 03:56 PM
there are 101 and ways to show someone respect and most of us have personal feelings and opinions towards about how we would like to get respect and give respect ......but if someone asks you to that someone will feel better if you do a certain act then it woudl be nice to do so ....there can be people who woudlnt mind someone being in skimpy shorts and low neck blouses and they woudlnt feel disrespectful about it ...but if someone does then why should one behave like that in front of that someone ...noone is saying that it is the only way to show respect .....rather it is one of the ways .........one should control ones gestures and acts according to the situtaion ...its just like covering your head in a temple or gurudwara in front of Gods and if someone's parents ask for it then that someone should do it ...coz it is also our heritage to respect our elders not as much as but close to as God ....isnt it ...thus it shoudl be more like do what the Romans do in Rome .....and as far as men and other socities are concerned well we all have our own ways to show respet what we do women dont and what they do we dont ......but tomorrow if an elderly person wants to me cover my head I would be more then happy to do so ......I wont take it as an attak on ego,self respect and esteem ....rather I would take it as catering to the needs of the special ones ...I mean one shoudl think rationally regarding such things......we do not live in a battlefield do we .....its life which is beautiful and you an make it beautiful only by respeting yourself and others and loving each other....and thats what it is all about ....

rsdalal
March 14th, 2003, 07:08 PM
Good Discussion guys.
In my opinion Slow change is better that sudden change. And slowly this custom is dying out for good. It is a matter of personal choice and very close to the same concept that you can not wear/act same way in front of your elders, as you can with your friends etc.
Why only women, this applies to Men as well. Do not we know that in our societies smokers usually do not smoke in front of their elders. My uncles smoke but I have not seen any of them smoking when my father is there.

Author's comparing this Jat tradition with Taliban, just tell me that how much she knows about Taliban. Or she want to just use spices to make her article attractive.

abhishek
March 14th, 2003, 10:11 PM
What I heard about parda or ghoongat has its roots in out history of invasion by islamists in later part of this millenium.
Now this was brought to our country by iranis, so to say that it is hindu thing or whatever is total lie.
These days this habit is more of showing respect in indirect I mean no one the forum will agree to the fact it is nice to talk with "adab" with your elders, so ghoonghat was more of forceful way? Now how tht is true...is something which elders on this forum knows.
But all said and done this does curb the freedom of women and cant be used as a justification!
I believe emancipation(dare i use that word) of women in our community is very important.
Education is first step, beyond a cursory high school education, college education shd be like
what every jat girl should have.. they shall be encouraged to work so that they have financial independence. Next comes the marriage age, in jats we do get married get "very" early and in case of girls this average age is horribly low. I mean we get to be more liberal....I use the word "liberal" and not oft used "modern". Okay we got to preserve our values but it is very important to be just and logical and that do makes sense and this is no moon talk!
Anyway Sanjay thanks for bringing up this nice topic for discussion

regards
Dhama

sanjaychhikara
March 15th, 2003, 12:35 AM
Abhishek bhai, u are right the right word to use is emancipation in this regard. Women should not rely on men to survive in the society of nowadays, they should be financially independent and yes for that education is a must, but also a better understanding from the (Jat) community itself. I know a lot of families who think that if their daughter or daughter-in-law would work their status would drop! This is just ridiculous I think. Working has many plus-points for women like getting in social contact, learning new things in life, independent (financially) of course and many more to name....

Let’s move forward to a new better Jat community in which we tolerate each other!!!


Abhishek Dhama (Mar 14, 2003 11:41 a.m.):
What I heard about parda or ghoongat has its roots in out history of invasion by islamists in later part of this millenium.
Now this was brought to our country by iranis, so to say that it is hindu thing or whatever is total lie.
These days this habit is more of showing respect in indirect I mean no one the forum will agree to the fact it is nice to talk with "adab" with your elders, so ghoonghat was more of forceful way? Now how tht is true...is something which elders on this forum knows.
But all said and done this does curb the freedom of women and cant be used as a justification!
I believe emancipation(dare i use that word) of women in our community is very important.
Education is first step, beyond a cursory high school education, college education shd be like
what every jat girl should have.. they shall be encouraged to work so that they have financial independence. Next comes the marriage age, in jats we do get married get "very" early and in case of girls this average age is horribly low. I mean we get to be more liberal....I use the word "liberal" and not oft used "modern". Okay we got to preserve our values but it is very important to be just and logical and that do makes sense and this is no moon talk!
Anyway Sanjay thanks for bringing up this nice topic for discussion

regards
Dhama

Thanks Abhisek...

Regards

artikundu
March 15th, 2003, 05:59 AM
i agree with u completely as what u r saying is the best solution of this thing.........







Sanjay Chhikara (Mar 14, 2003 02:05 p.m.):
Abhishek bhai, u are right the right word to use is emancipation in this regard. Women should not rely on men to survive in the society of nowadays, they should be financially independent and yes for that education is a must, but also a better understanding from the (Jat) community itself. I know a lot of families who think that if their daughter or daughter-in-law would work their status would drop! This is just ridiculous I think. Working has many plus-points for women like getting in social contact, learning new things in life, independent (financially) of course and many more to name....

Let’s move forward to a new better Jat community in which we tolerate each other!!!


Abhishek Dhama (Mar 14, 2003 11:41 a.m.):
What I heard about parda or ghoongat has its roots in out history of invasion by islamists in later part of this millenium.
Now this was brought to our country by iranis, so to say that it is hindu thing or whatever is total lie.
These days this habit is more of showing respect in indirect I mean no one the forum will agree to the fact it is nice to talk with "adab" with your elders, so ghoonghat was more of forceful way? Now how tht is true...is something which elders on this forum knows.
But all said and done this does curb the freedom of women and cant be used as a justification!
I believe emancipation(dare i use that word) of women in our community is very important.
Education is first step, beyond a cursory high school education, college education shd be like
what every jat girl should have.. they shall be encouraged to work so that they have financial independence. Next comes the marriage age, in jats we do get married get "very" early and in case of girls this average age is horribly low. I mean we get to be more liberal....I use the word "liberal" and not oft used "modern". Okay we got to preserve our values but it is very important to be just and logical and that do makes sense and this is no moon talk!
Anyway Sanjay thanks for bringing up this nice topic for discussion

regards
Dhama

Thanks Abhisek...

Regards

scsheorayan
March 16th, 2003, 11:14 AM
Thanks to every one for the enthusiasm. Here may I say that the real victims of Parda remain isolated from our this enlightenment and those who are in aposition to participate have already put it behind them. What I am trying to say is that education is the only remedy and it is encouraging to note that Jat girls are certainly progressing in this direction. With that happening in the society old problems like Ghunghat etc will certainly disappear. But do we know what problems these educated girls are going to face in our society infact some of them may have already started feeling the pich. Let us hear from educated ones who do not have to put up with Parda but there may be worse things than Parda are we all aware of their plight? Let us ask them. Some of them are becoming victims of their own success. How ?

artikundu
March 16th, 2003, 01:49 PM
Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Mar 16, 2003 12:47 a.m.):
Thanks to every one for the enthusiasm. Here may I say that the real victims of Parda remain isolated from our this enlightenment and those who are in aposition to participate have already put it behind them. What I am trying to say is that education is the only remedy and it is encouraging to note that Jat girls are certainly progressing in this direction. With that happening in the society old problems like Ghunghat etc will certainly disappear. But do we know what problems these educated girls are going to face in our society infact some of them may have already started feeling the pich. Let us hear from educated ones who do not have to put up with Parda but there may be worse things than Parda are we all aware of their plight? Let us ask them. Some of them are becoming victims of their own success. How ?

rajiv7
March 16th, 2003, 02:52 PM
An old but significant incident (late 1950s)

After independence Acharya Vinoba Bhave ji had launched the 'Bhoomi Daan' movement. He went on a padyatra from one village to another asking the big land owners to donate some of their land to the landless.

Ch Sahib Ram and his younger brother Ch Devi Lal invited Vinoba Bhave to their village Chautala and decided to donate some more of their land to the landless of the village.

Vinoba ji visited Chautala village and stayed the night at Ch Sahib Ram's house. While he was having dinner (he had asked for well whipped Dahi made from cow's milk), wife of Ch Sahib Ram was standing nearby waiting to see if he required anything else. Chautala village is right on the border of Rajasthan and the practice of 'Ghoongat' was very strictly followed. Accordingly her face was well covered.

Vinoba Bhave ji got up and lifted the 'Ghoongat' from her face and said to her, singing the lines, "Ghoongat ke pat khol sakhi re, tujhe Ram milenge".

He further said, "Behenji, yeh aapne kya ghoongat nikala hua hai, yeh hamaari Hinduon ki parampra nahin thi. Is se bahar aaiye".

Next day early morning at 4 am, Vinoba ji restarted his padyatra. Ch Sahib Ram's wife and daughter accompanied him right to the village boundary to see him off before returning home.

Ch Sahib Ram frequently narrated this incident to friends and family members, but this practice had so thoroughly ingrained itself in that region that now almost 50 years later it still exists in the villages.

Rajiv Lather

sanjaychhikara
March 16th, 2003, 05:08 PM
Rajiv ji,

This is a brilliant example of how things should be!


Rajiv Lather (Mar 16, 2003 04:22 a.m.):
An old but significant incident (late 1950s)

After independence Acharya Vinoba Bhave ji had launched the 'Bhoomi Daan' movement. He went on a padyatra from one village to another asking the big land owners to donate some of their land to the landless.

Ch Sahib Ram and his younger brother Ch Devi Lal invited Vinoba Bhave to their village Chautala and decided to donate some more of their land to the landless of the village.

Vinoba ji visited Chautala village and stayed the night at Ch Sahib Ram's house. While he was having dinner (he had asked for well whipped Dahi made from cow's milk), wife of Ch Sahib Ram was standing nearby waiting to see if he required anything else. Chautala village is right on the border of Rajasthan and the practice of 'Ghoongat' was very strictly followed. Accordingly her face was well covered.

Vinoba Bhave ji got up and lifted the 'Ghoongat' from her face and said to her, singing the lines, "Ghoongat ke pat khol sakhi re, tujhe Ram milenge".

He further said, "Behenji, yeh aapne kya ghoongat nikala hua hai, yeh hamaari Hinduon ki parampra nahin thi. Is se bahar aaiye".

Next day early morning at 4 am, Vinoba ji restarted his padyatra. Ch Sahib Ram's wife and daughter accompanied him right to the village boundary to see him off before returning home.

Ch Sahib Ram frequently narrated this incident to friends and family members, but this practice had so thoroughly ingrained itself in that region that now almost 50 years later it still exists in the villages.

Rajiv Lather

artikundu
March 16th, 2003, 06:10 PM
Rajiv Lather (Mar 16, 2003 04:22 a.m.):
An old but significant incident (late 1950s)

After independence Acharya Vinoba Bhave ji had launched the 'Bhoomi Daan' movement. He went on a padyatra from one village to another asking the big land owners to donate some of their land to the landless.

Ch Sahib Ram and his younger brother Ch Devi Lal invited Vinoba Bhave to their village Chautala and decided to donate some more of their land to the landless of the village.

Vinoba ji visited Chautala village and stayed the night at Ch Sahib Ram's house. While he was having dinner (he had asked for well whipped Dahi made from cow's milk), wife of Ch Sahib Ram was standing nearby waiting to see if he required anything else. Chautala village is right on the border of Rajasthan and the practice of 'Ghoongat' was very strictly followed. Accordingly her face was well covered.

Vinoba Bhave ji got up and lifted the 'Ghoongat' from her face and said to her, singing the lines, "Ghoongat ke pat khol sakhi re, tujhe Ram milenge".

He further said, "Behenji, yeh aapne kya ghoongat nikala hua hai, yeh hamaari Hinduon ki parampra nahin thi. Is se bahar aaiye".

Next day early morning at 4 am, Vinoba ji restarted his padyatra. Ch Sahib Ram's wife and daughter accompanied him right to the village boundary to see him off before returning home.

Ch Sahib Ram frequently narrated this incident to friends and family members, but this practice had so thoroughly ingrained itself in that region that now almost 50 years later it still exists in the villages.

Rajiv Lather

artikundu
March 16th, 2003, 06:12 PM
it is really a goodone and i think it itself is selfexplanatory and this topic does not requires any more discussion.

Rajiv Lather (Mar 16, 2003 04:22 a.m.):
An old but significant incident (late 1950s)

After independence Acharya Vinoba Bhave ji had launched the 'Bhoomi Daan' movement. He went on a padyatra from one village to another asking the big land owners to donate some of their land to the landless.

Ch Sahib Ram and his younger brother Ch Devi Lal invited Vinoba Bhave to their village Chautala and decided to donate some more of their land to the landless of the village.

Vinoba ji visited Chautala village and stayed the night at Ch Sahib Ram's house. While he was having dinner (he had asked for well whipped Dahi made from cow's milk), wife of Ch Sahib Ram was standing nearby waiting to see if he required anything else. Chautala village is right on the border of Rajasthan and the practice of 'Ghoongat' was very strictly followed. Accordingly her face was well covered.

Vinoba Bhave ji got up and lifted the 'Ghoongat' from her face and said to her, singing the lines, "Ghoongat ke pat khol sakhi re, tujhe Ram milenge".

He further said, "Behenji, yeh aapne kya ghoongat nikala hua hai, yeh hamaari Hinduon ki parampra nahin thi. Is se bahar aaiye".

Next day early morning at 4 am, Vinoba ji restarted his padyatra. Ch Sahib Ram's wife and daughter accompanied him right to the village boundary to see him off before returning home.

Ch Sahib Ram frequently narrated this incident to friends and family members, but this practice had so thoroughly ingrained itself in that region that now almost 50 years later it still exists in the villages.

Rajiv Lather