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urmiladuhan
January 15th, 2003, 04:10 AM
to write first 'definitive history' of Sikhs in the absence of authentic published records? I am curious to know what convinced Princeton University 30-40 years back, to give him grant for the purpose when he was not even a historian by qualification and nobody had attempted what he wanted to do on any scale i.e., get Oxford to publish his work! His work has certainly made his version of Sikhism authentic on a world forum. I am wondering what needs to be done before Jat history can get this kind of opportunity.

ravichaudhary
January 15th, 2003, 05:14 AM
Urmilla you are absolutely correct.

Khuswant Singh is simply a story teller, but his book has become respected, and he gets quoted and authority on Sikh History

“ In the land of the Blind the one eyed man is King”

The important thing is, which we in our complacency have ignored, is the need for Public Relations, advertising, and GETTING THE MESSAGE OUT’

If you do not you will be eradicated form peoples memory.

We Jats have simply been too complacent, content, complaining once in a while, but doing nothing.

Why study, why educate our kids.

What I hope to do is to create the spark in every member to find out about his or her family history.

That is good start

Together out of this, a few will come, who will write a history of our people, one that will be the authoritative version.

What people like, Dudhee Sahib, Dahiya Sahib, Ahlawat Sahib are doing are laying the ground.

They follow the Pioneers – Thakur Desraj, R S Joon, Dr Hukam Singh Pauria, and we should be grateful for them lighting the way.

Desraj and Pauria are an absolute must read.

As people like you, Ashok, Sarla, Ajay Nehra and others start taking an interest, and spreading the interest, we will achieve critical mass.

A PEOPLE WHO DO NOT KNOW THEIR HISTORY ARE DOOMED TO OBLIVION.

Ravi

vinodks
October 10th, 2006, 09:02 PM
I dont know whats the issue here. The book is very well written, one need not be historian by profession to history. Historically, most of the history is written by story-tellers. There is no such book on "complete and definitive" history of Jats yet. Different books deal with different aspect of history with different view points. Its not that Jats were not history conscious but reason for the lack of empathesis on Jats in history is that there was no well-defined notion of word 'jat' and jat identity until half millenium back. As we know people identified themselves with clan better than caste. And there also seem to be discontinuity of history of clans too. Some say Dahiyas are related to Chauhans and other relate to Dhe and Dahae. There is gap of 1000 years between two and where were these people in that period? So writing Jat history would mean to imposing Jat name to ancient clans who didn't call themselves Jats at that time. E.g. tribes like Sibi, Malloi, Pors etc who gave hard time to Alexander called themselves by these names and Greeks also called them with similar names. There got written in all history books just like that. Now if we claim to include them in "definitive" jat history based on argument that people with simliar sounding clan name are still found in Jat community it would raise many eye brows. If some village in Bihar starts claiming direct connection with Lichhavi(republic existed for several centuries before Guptas) based on some similar sounding argument, it may be not wrong but would be irrelvent as far as history is concerned.
Anybody who would attempt to write Jat history could be easily criticized as 'constructing' jat history because it would involve imposing Jat words on people who didn't call themselves jats at that time even though people in NW India are connected to them. Its easy to write history of Sikhism because it falls in realm of knwon history, so is easy to write history of bharatput but definitive and complete history of Jats would involve attempting some effort which professional historians might tend to disregard as dishonest propaganda.

-vinod



to write first 'definitive history' of Sikhs in the absence of authentic published records? I am curious to know what convinced Princeton University 30-40 years back, to give him grant for the purpose when he was not even a historian by qualification and nobody had attempted what he wanted to do on any scale i.e., get Oxford to publish his work! His work has certainly made his version of Sikhism authentic on a world forum. I am wondering what needs to be done before Jat history can get this kind of opportunity.

narenderkharb
October 11th, 2006, 09:49 AM
is that there was no well-defined notion of word 'jat' and jat identity until half millenium back. As we know people identified themselves with clan better than caste.So writing Jat history would mean to imposing Jat name to ancient clans who didn't call themselves Jats at that time. E.g. tribes like Sibi, Malloi, Pors etc who gave hard time to Alexander called themselves by these names and Greeks also called them with similar names. There got written in all history books just like that. Now if we claim to include them in "definitive" jat history based on argument that people with simliar sounding clan name are still found in Jat community it would raise many eye brows. If some village in Bihar starts claiming direct connection with Lichhavi(republic existed for several centuries before Guptas) based on some similar sounding argument, it may be not wrong but would be irrelvent as far as history is concerned.
Anybody who would attempt to write Jat history could be easily criticized as 'constructing' jat history because it would involve imposing Jat words on people who didn't call themselves jats at that time even though people in NW India are connected to them. so is easy to write definitive and complete history of Jats would involve attempting some effort which professional historians might tend to disregard as dishonest propaganda.

-vinod


Vinod



Here is a problem where you are making a definitive statememt on history based on your own knowledge that is enriching day by day and you stress the absoluteness of available knowledge which is not the case.

For example here you simply said that writing jat history would mean imposing jat name to clans who didn't call them jats.

Can you explain how did you come to know that these clans didn't call them jats.

At best you can say that we don't find the name of jat for them in greek or other literature.

On the contrary you are suggesting that this jat identity is a later phenomenon and doesnot represent jats as some ancient race.

We have to search more material about jats till than we can avoid our own beliefs subsituted for Jat history and reported as such.

I hope a little caution in this respect.

vinodks
October 11th, 2006, 11:08 PM
I said what I felt and that may be wrong of course... We conclude based on what proofs are there available at present... Small republics in punjab during Alexander might have called themselves Jats but what proofs we have for that except Greek historians and Jain/Buddhist/Hindu books?... Quoting one verse from Astadhyayi is not enough, especially when people don't explain the whole context... Word 'Jata' could as well be word for Punjabi "Jatha" which mean group or band of people... which could relate to the word that was popular at that time, "Sangha"... e.g. Buddhists Samgha... I cursively browsed through Griffith's translation of part of Rgveda which uses words Jata/Sujata and nowhere in the interpertion they were related to presents Jats... Dahiya's arguments could still be valid but it would hard to convince non-Jats who may not like to see Jats associated with Rgvedic people... If Jats were Aryan Aristocrats how come they lost the hold of intellectual sway of society and reduced to mere peasantry?... but its possible e.g. Kurus in gangetic plains were not that powerful when clans of present Bihar rose to power during Mauryan and similar updown are possible as Desraj says... "Prachin kaal se ab tak Jatiyon mein bahut utthal putthal hoyi hai"... I am not denying possiblity of giving name Jats to these tribes in standard books but whats the way/approach/startegy to make people look in this perspective and get convinced?...

-vinod


Vinod

Here is a problem where you are making a definitive statememt on history based on your own knowledge that is enriching day by day and you stress the absoluteness of available knowledge which is not the case.

For example here you simply said that writing jat history would mean imposing jat name to clans who didn't call them jats.

Can you explain how did you come to know that these clans didn't call them jats.

At best you can say that we don't find the name of jat for them in greek or other literature.

On the contrary you are suggesting that this jat identity is a later phenomenon and doesnot represent jats as some ancient race.

We have to search more material about jats till than we can avoid our own beliefs subsituted for Jat history and reported as such.

I hope a little caution in this respect.

vijay
October 11th, 2006, 11:24 PM
Word 'Jata' could as well be word for Punjabi "Jatha" which mean group or band of people...

For your kind information 'Jata' word is thousands years old and Punjabi language and Punjabi Culture including Sikhism is just a few hundred years old ( 1699 and after that).

vinodks
October 11th, 2006, 11:33 PM
Thanks for kind info... Now plz provide a proof that punjabi word "Jatha" is neology of 1699?...... when you say punjabi language I guess you mean Gurumukhi script not the spoken language?... Spoken languages evolve continuously and one day people dont sit down and decide 'ok lets start speaking like this from now on'... however the same(more or less) can be done with script becuz script is conscious effort whereas spoken language is spontaneous... Spoken language is also conscious in different context (e.g. in an experiment a child reared among animals didn't learn to speak but lets not go into that)... coming back to original point, I said there "could" be relation between two words and it was as an example...

-vinod


For your kind information 'Jata' word is thousands years old and Punjabi language and Punjabi Culture including Sikhism is just a few hundred years old ( 1699 and after that).

vijay
October 11th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Thanks for kind info... Now plz provide a proof that punjabi word "Jatha" is only hundreds year old... when you say punjabi language I guess you mean Gurumukhi script not the spoken language?... Spoken languages evolve continuously and whats the proof that 'Jatha' was neology of 1699?...

-vinod


Whatever the word that is 'Jata' or 'Jatha'. The Punjabi language or Gurumukhi Script just came into existance after Guru Gobind Singh Ji led the Sikhism in 1699. The word 'Jatha' existed even before that but if you want to relate that with Punjabi language or Gurumukhi script which is just a few hundreds years old than it's ur lack of knowledge. Sorry buddy :)

Plz read the source of this concept again. :) :)

narenderkharb
October 12th, 2006, 12:36 AM
I said what I felt and that may be wrong of course...

That's what I want you to understand that you may be wrong and don't say that Writing jat history would mean putting jat identity on those clans who didn't call them jats.

Quoting one verse from Astadhyayi is not enough, especially when people don't explain the whole context... Word 'Jata' could as well be word for Punjabi "Jatha" which mean group or band of people...

I have often suggested that this is falesly quoted for roots rather than jats
But I wonder how you could relate jata to jatha that is qite old and not restrcted to punjab only ,I mean does that word jatha even fit in this sentence.

which could relate to the word that was popular at that time, "Sangha"... e.g. Buddhists Samgha... I cursively browsed through Griffith's translation of part of Rgveda which uses words Jata/Sujata and nowhere in the interpertion they were related to presents Jats... Dahiya's arguments could still be valid but it would hard to convince non-Jats who may not like to see Jats associated with Rgvedic people...

Sooner we leave this thirst of assosiating us with this or that people better it would be for JAT History

If Jats were Aryan Aristocrats how come they lost the hold of intellectual sway of society and reduced to mere peasantry?...

Reduced to mere peasantry what do you mean ????

but its possible e.g. Kurus in gangetic plains were not that powerful when clans of present Bihar rose to power during Mauryan

Maryans were not bihari and were pure north western jats .Read more about moryas than analyse you may change your views.I will refer you to go through some old articles on JAT HISTORY GROUP and article bY Dahiya and Samar Abbas on iran chamber of history , in this regard in addition to other jat sites like Jatt World.

and similar updown are possible as Desraj says... "Prachin kaal se ab tak Jatiyon mein bahut utthal putthal hoyi hai"... I am not denying possiblity of giving name Jats to these tribes in standard books but whats the way/approach/startegy to make people look in this perspective and get convinced?...

I have requested both Ravi ji and laxman ji that we must leave this jatta theory of Shiva and jatta jhatt sanghate or ghayati Sangh type similarity that is pure guessing instead we can concentrate on jats when they were called Jats only.I hope a discussion in this regard with them once they feel comfortable regarding this.

-vinod......................................

nijjhar
October 12th, 2006, 03:48 AM
to write first 'definitive history' of Sikhs in the absence of authentic published records? I am curious to know what convinced Princeton University 30-40 years back, to give him grant for the purpose when he was not even a historian by qualification and nobody had attempted what he wanted to do on any scale i.e., get Oxford to publish his work! His work has certainly made his version of Sikhism authentic on a world forum. I am wondering what needs to be done before Jat history can get this kind of opportunity.
Please try to address people with their courtesy titles. The courtesy title of Jatts, Gujjar, Ahir, etc is Chaudhry and it should be before the name and not after. After the name is your surname or Gotra.

This Khushwant Singh is a Khatri/Arorra, which we should find and correct way of addressing him is Lala Khushwant Singh followed by surname. Lala Tara Singh was a Malhotra Khatri.

Please use the Gotra of Ch. Chhotu Ram Ji as well.

mann123
October 16th, 2006, 07:06 AM
[quote=nijjhar;118713]Please try to address people with their courtesy titles. The courtesy title of Jatts, Gujjar, Ahir, etc is Chaudhry
quote]

Nijjhar jee

I never heard of Gujjar, Ahir (yadavs) using Chaudhry as their courtesy. It was only used by Jatts and Chaudhry were considered so prestigious that everyone can't use it.

narenderkharb
October 16th, 2006, 08:20 AM
[quote=nijjhar;118713]Please try to address people with their courtesy titles. The courtesy title of Jatts, Gujjar, Ahir, etc is Chaudhry
quote]

Nijjhar jee

I never heard of Gujjar, Ahir (yadavs) using Chaudhry as their courtesy. It was only used by Jatts and Chaudhry were considered so prestigious that everyone can't use it.

Gujjar too use Choudhary in pakistan but they use it at the end of name as Ahsan Choudhary.While Jats use it before name like Choudhary Parvej illahi Or Choudhary Hasan Cheema

nijjhar
October 16th, 2006, 05:19 PM
Sorry. I am not that well informed and I thought Gujjar and Ahir use the same.

BTW What title they use please?

mann123
October 16th, 2006, 11:31 PM
[quote=mann123;118991]

Gujjar too use Choudhary in pakistan but they use it at the end of name as Ahsan Choudhary.While Jats use it before name like Choudhary Parvej illahi Or Choudhary Hasan Cheema

Bhai

Some of the my know Jats in western UP also uses Choudhary at the end of name. This is not the trend here specially in Haryana.

mann123
October 16th, 2006, 11:34 PM
Sorry. I am not that well informed and I thought Gujjar and Ahir use the same.

BTW What title they use please?


Nijjar jee

I know many Ahir and Gujjars they use yadav or there sur name after there name.

I am residing in Noida (Western UP) where there are lot of Gujjars and Ahirs and they use to call Jats "Choudhary"