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View Full Version : A dengerous approach of researching Jat history purely by matching or similarity of words



chashokverma
January 29th, 2003, 10:13 PM
I have a serious objection to finding by few writer about the roots of Jats purely repeat purely by matching the words.

Off late a tendency have been naticed in the few writings about Jat History to come on conclusion purely repeat purely on the basis of similarity in pronunciation of words. The approach is frought with with many flows.

If that is the approach then The Jatavs (Schedule castes) and The jats should be from the same family??But are they???

You punch a word Jat in Latin American Historical records, you may find hundreds of words similar to the word Jat or Jat gotras but are they Jats??? Now for God sake don’t say they are Jats.

The approach of matching the similar words and arriving to a conclusion is a very dangerous approach.

I searched for the word 'Hagan' my gotra and found the people writing this sur name in Europe. Not one but many in hundreds. The one of the wife of Abraham was Hagar. The name was prevalent in ancient Egypt and Arabia. The word Hagan means 'the Great' in Mongolia. But it doesn’t mean that we have any connection with these people. It is just that this words has developed in many languages naturally.

The fact is the word 'Hagan' has come from the first Saka Khatrap who was ruling complete north India from his capital Mathura. His descendants were later on assimilated in Jadu vanshi folds by a common practice of adoption of the laws of the land by invaders.

In indian context the word Jat should not be mixed up with word Jit (means vicotry..jeet and used as surnames by few kings even during vadic period) or Jat means Varna or now caste. These words have nothing to do with todays Jats.

In pre muslim periods non of the kings were known by their castes as it now exists. They were known by their gotras or clans. Harsh Vardhan has been referred as Varak not as Jat.

Let me also bring it out that Chnadela Rajputs also say that they are the descendants of Harsh Vardhan. They may be right as the Virk Jats are as both may be from the same father. The fact is Rajputs and Jats share common ancestry. History is inherited by the powerful not by the weak. That is a bitter fact.

The evidence of similarity may not be totally ruled out but it has to be corrobarated with some other facts.

Therefore I record my caution to those writers who try to come to conclusion purely by matching the word.

urmiladuhan
January 30th, 2003, 06:00 AM
[quote]Ch Ashok Verma (Jan 29, 2003 11:45 a.m.):
I have a serious objection to finding by few writer about the roots of Jats purely repeat purely by matching the words.

Off late a tendency have been naticed in the few writings about Jat History to come on conclusion purely repeat purely on the basis of similarity in pronunciation of words. The approach is frought with with many flows.

If that is the approach then The Jatavs (Schedule castes) and The jats should be from the same family??But are they???
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(reply)
don't know what's the real story here. May be they are or may they may not be.
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(quote)
You punch a word Jat in Latin American Historical records, you may find hundreds of words similar to the word Jat or Jat gotras but are they Jats??? Now for God sake don’t say they are Jats.

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(reply)
South Americans predominantly have spanish culture and majority of their sir names are
same as in Spain. South America wasn't discovered until the 15th century. It is highly unlikely that red indians residing in south america before the discovery of American continent, happened to have spanish sir names. If you find your gotra being shared by south americans, europeans and indian races at the same time, it is probably (makes intutive sense also) that spanish people gave it to south american races and not vice versa. It is popularly acknowledged that Aryan race (from near caspian sea) invaded Europe, North China, India, parts of Mideast, Iran etc. The route therefore must've been:
Aryans names being taken by-->native europeans(including spaniards)-->the names being
propogated to native south americans due to spain's colonisation of south america.
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(quote)
The approach of matching the similar words and arriving to a conclusion is a very dangerous approach.

I searched for the word 'Hagan' my gotra and found the people writing this sur name in Europe. Not one but many in hundreds. The one of the wife of Abraham was Hagar. The name was prevalent in ancient Egypt and Arabia. The word Hagan means 'the Great' in Mongolia. But it doesn’t mean that we have any connection with these people. It is just that this words has developed in many languages naturally.
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(reply)
I think, the using philological similarity approach for finding connectivity between communities is based on statistics. Exceptions will always be there. I read it in book "Aryan Tribes and the Rigveda" that almost 100% of current Jat Gotra names have philological similarity with European races. Statistics is a powerful tool and cannot be ignored. Your own search on your Gotra has found similar names in Europe south america, mongolia, and india which can be taken as clue to the common origin of these people.
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(Quote)The fact is the word 'Hagan' has come from the first Saka Khatrap who was ruling complete north India from his capital Mathura. His descendants were later on assimilated in Jadu vanshi folds by a common practice of adoption of the laws of the land by invaders.
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(Reply)Is it implied that Saka Khatrap invaded Europe and south america and so they all now have this common gotra! Not true. I would be interested in knowing any premonitions to explain why Indo european languages have quite in common.
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akdalal
January 30th, 2003, 10:49 AM
we all do the brain storming on our origin. This sometimes include these type of co related details.

I must ask all is there anybody who can tell me the origin of Jats?

There will be many answers, many of them contradicting with each others theory, hence we all try to find the truth.

Co relation of names is one of the part.

Cheers!

ravichaudhary
January 30th, 2003, 10:59 PM
If my intention was, and it was and is, is to stimulate an interest in our members in their history, that is certainly working with everyone’s support.

Ashok has raised some very important questions, and I have attempted to answer some, from my perspective, on the thread (topic) origin of the word “ Jat”.

To arrive at a consensual view, much discussion will occur, some of it passionate.

One needs other resources!

Does someone know a Jat Sanskrit scholar, or a Jat with interest in and access to the Historical libraries and archives, Epicgraphica Indica, Indian Historical quarterly?

The inscription of the Jat raja Salindra in the topic is one example.

"Inscription of JIT SALINDRA "

Quite often we are stuck with the inscription being translated by people who have no cultural understanding.

We need to go back to Te original inscriptions.

Right now on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/, we are getting interest from non-Jat members, and a healthy discussion is going on. It will I ma sure get more interesting.

On this group we restrict membership to Jats only, and we should keep it that way.
I am going to encourage members to visit the other group, join if you like, membership is free, simply attach you E mail address, and those who can help in gathering material, please contact me at

Ravi9@hotmail.com

If some one wishes to ask questions and is shy to post on an open forum , do please send me an e mail directly.

Ravi Chaudhary

A people who do not their history are doomed to oblivion

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/,

biotechs2001
January 31st, 2003, 05:20 AM
Mr. Ashok Verma,
I am fully agree with your opinion, and I also want to know whats the correlation they found between Jats and Jatav, before jumping to other continents on the basis of mere similiarity of surnames.


Ch Ashok Verma (Jan 29, 2003 11:45 a.m.):
I have a serious objection to finding by few writer about the roots of Jats purely repeat purely by matching the words.

Off late a tendency have been naticed in the few writings about Jat History to come on conclusion purely repeat purely on the basis of similarity in pronunciation of words. The approach is frought with with many flows.

If that is the approach then The Jatavs (Schedule castes) and The jats should be from the same family??But are they???

by matching the word.

lrburdak
February 7th, 2003, 07:40 AM
Krishan Kumar Ji,
There is no correlation betwin words Jat and Jatavs. The surname Jatav was coined by Maharaja Surajmal for harijans who were workers.This was done to show affinity towards harijans and to have better harmoney.Maharaja considered Harijans as younger brothers hence gave the name Jatav.

biotechs2001
February 7th, 2003, 04:46 PM
Dear L.R.Durdak,
Thanks for your worthful information.
With Regards
Krishan

k
L.R.Burdak (Feb 06, 2003 09:10 p.m.):
Krishan Kumar Ji,
There is no correlation betwin words Jat and Jatavs. The surname Jatav was coined by Maharaja Surajmal for harijans who were workers.This was done to show affinity towards harijans and to have better harmoney.Maharaja considered Harijans as younger brothers hence gave the name Jatav.

ravichaudhary
February 8th, 2003, 08:57 AM
L.R.Burdak (Feb 06, 2003 09:10 p.m.):
Krishan Kumar Ji,
There is no correlation betwin words Jat and Jatavs. The surname Jatav was coined by Maharaja Surajmal for harijans who were workers.This was done to show affinity towards harijans and to have better harmoney.Maharaja considered Harijans as younger brothers hence gave the name Jatav.

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CH. Burdak Sahib

Can you provide some evidence for your statement???


I do have another question

How and why did some Jats accept and adopt the caste system??




Ravi

lrburdak
February 13th, 2003, 07:37 AM
Dear Ravi ji,
I can not give any evidence at the moment but detailed informations regarding this matter can be seen in an article published in-“JAT SAMAJ” magazine published from Agra, by Shri Bhgwan Singh Chahar Khalaua-JATAV UPADHI KI PRASANGIKTA in November 1997 issue.
About adopting caste system some History scholar can through light.
L.R.Burdak

ravichaudhary
February 13th, 2003, 09:38 AM
L.R.Burdak (Feb 12, 2003 09:07 p.m.):
Dear Ravi ji,
I can not give any evidence at the moment but detailed informations regarding this matter can be seen in an article published in-“JAT SAMAJ” magazine published from Agra, by Shri Bhgwan Singh Chahar Khalaua-JATAV UPADHI KI PRASANGIKTA in November 1997 issue.
About adopting caste system some History scholar can through light.
L.R.Burdak

*****
Do you have a copy and could you share it with us


Ravi

lrburdak
February 14th, 2003, 07:31 AM
Dear Ravi ji
I have the copy but it is not on e-media.Jat-Jatav relationship needs further research.The article I mentioned is desciptive one and not a research paper.
L.R.Burdak

ravichaudhary
February 15th, 2003, 01:56 AM
L.R.Burdak (Feb 13, 2003 09:01 p.m.):
Dear Ravi ji
I have the copy but it is not on e-media.Jat-Jatav relationship needs further research.The article I mentioned is desciptive one and not a research paper.
L.R.Burdak


If you could mailme a copy, I will appreciate it

Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
February 15th, 2003, 01:59 AM
Ravi Chaudhary (Feb 14, 2003 03:26 p.m.):

L.R.Burdak (Feb 13, 2003 09:01 p.m.):
Dear Ravi ji
I have the copy but it is not on e-media.Jat-Jatav relationship needs further research.The article I mentioned is desciptive one and not a research paper.
L.R.Burdak

If yo can put it on e mail even better, for I am trying to get all Jat realted material on the internet

If you could mail me a copy, I will appreciate it, My address is : 58 Calrinda Drive, Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M2K 2W3

Thanks you in advance

Ravi

Ravi Chaudhary

lrburdak
February 17th, 2003, 07:27 AM
Ravi ji
I am trying to bring on e-media. I will send you very soon.
L.R.Burdak