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chashokverma
August 16th, 2002, 12:06 AM
Very interesting facts are emerging from the study of geneolgy of Hagan gotra.

As per indications they are Saka who came from from Persia in 2 BC and ruled over complete North India incl Malwa and Sourashtra. The first Hagan Kchatrap Hagan and 7 generations therafter ruled over the complete area from Mathura around 2 and 1 BC. Their geneology has been found on carved on stones which r kept in Mathura Museum.

Under pressure from the subsequent invaders they moved towards Bayana and Ranthambore. With the rise of Bhudhism they patronosed it. Somewhere in 8th or 9th AD they came into hindu folds. They were linked to Lord Krishna by the Brahmans and incl into Jadu (yadu) Vansha. accordingly a geneology was created by them which is still kept with the Jaga ( geniology keepers) residing in the Helak vill of Bharatput Dist of Raj. The famous Maharajas of Bayana Sind Pal and Jaindra Pal are in the same line. Jaindra Pal was defeated by Turks near Agra in 1100 AD. His 11 sons dispersed and some of them at the appropriate time founded their kingdoms at Bayana, Mahaban, Ranthambore, Kutch and Jaisalmer.

They are now devided into 18 Gotras; 12 gotras of Jadon rajputs incl Bhati rulers of Jaisalmer, 5 Gotras of Jats ( Sinsinwars; Bharatpur rulres, Sogariya: Kr Natwar Singh, Nohwars, Ghayars and Hagan) and one Khan Jadey muslims in Alwar dist.

Hagan under Muslim rulers ruled from Mahaban and were given the title of Choudhary. Their presence has been proved by the recovery of stones scripts from the Mahaban fort. Under Mogals they refuse to pay taxes. Aurangjeb tried to recover the same which resulted into the famous Jat revolt of Sadabad. Their leader Gokula Jat was killed along with his uncle Udai Singh in Agra. Udai Singh is the fore father of the writer who fouded Naogaon mud fort. It has now 24+ villages. Hagans had 24 Forts incl mud forts. They now reside into more then 124 Villages and have four kheras; Bisawar, Unchagaon ( Gokula), Kursanda and Naogaon.

The writer is still researching the subject. What is interesting is the commanality of the gotras, in terms of their origin, of Rajputs, Jats and Muslims. But the theory of their origin from Saka has very strong evidence. But it may be premature to rule out the Brahman theory of Jadu (Yadu) Vansha.

rajeshsindhu
August 16th, 2002, 12:48 AM
Thanks for sharing it Ashok!
I think you have reached the point where you should look at the book : "Jats: their origin, migrations and entiquity" - by Hukum Singh Panwar ( see history section for more details about the book). This book will definitely widen your perspectives.
keep it up!
-Rajesh

chashokverma
August 16th, 2002, 01:12 AM
Yes Mr Pawanrs book throws a good light on the subject. A substantial evidence has now emerged from the records of Jaga. In fact Col Tod in his book make references to these geneologies held by Jagas. It points out to the theory of origin of Rajputs from the Jats.

Another thing, the word 'Jat' is not found before 900 AD. In the records of Sindh history The word JAT was first used by the Arab muslim invaders. Probably the word originated from the dress codes of Jats. They used to wear long hairs, long chogas and ride horses. They were anti brahmans.

The then king of Sind Dahir, a brahmin, did not like Jats. This is where the arab rulers on the advise of Brahmins put lot of ristrictions on the Jats. They were not allowed to ride horses and wear good clothes.

The anti Jat feelings among the Brahmans is still visible now. Its becouse of the the strong affiliation of Jat rulers to Bhudhist religion. Those Jat rulers who patronised brahmans were taken into Hindu fold as Rajputs and were given higher social status.

urmiladuhan
August 16th, 2002, 01:38 AM
That was quite interesting piece of information. Just curious- what reference are you quoting?

Duhan.

urmiladuhan
August 16th, 2002, 01:57 AM
duhan (Aug 15, 2002 04:08 p.m.):
That was quite interesting piece of information. Just curious- what reference are you quoting?

Duhan.

P.S There are atleast 2 books on Jat history that i know of:
1) Jats: The ancient rulers. By B.S Dahiya
2) Aryans and the Rigveda (i think. or is it the other way around?) also by B.S Dahiya.
The first book is also available in Chicago
public library- for those in US wanting to borrow.

chashokverma
August 16th, 2002, 02:56 AM
This info is not from any book. it is based on the info of my geneology provided by my Jaga ( geneology keeper). The info is recorded.

The history of Hagan gotra founded by Hagan the Saka ruler of Mathura and complete North India is substatiated by lot of evidences.

In Hagan gotra there is still the custom of stating Saka-char; the cunduct of Sakas. which is quite strange

yvsgaawar
August 16th, 2002, 08:13 PM
Hi Mr. Ashok Verma,
This is a fine piece of information. Please keep posting other findings.

Thanks

P.S: Does anyone knows more about GOKULA Jat.

ranjitjat
August 16th, 2002, 09:21 PM
CH ASHOK VARMA JI
Welcome,Congratulation & RAMRAM
This is very important information & finding on
JAT GOTRA &HISTORY.
This is a new field of research.I have done some research on JAT GOTRA & HISTORY.
I will be happy to do more research.You are welcome to contact me bye e-mail.
If you or any body have printable matters, materials please e mail me on
ranjitjat@talk21.com
sahiddham@hotmail.com

chashokverma
August 17th, 2002, 12:03 AM
THE JATS



1. The Jats; residing mainly in North- West and Northern parts of India and Pakistan, are socially one of the prominent class of people involved in farming and soldiering. The word ‘Jat’ itself generates lot of curiosity. As per the Brahmanical social order, they are Khatriyas. They don’t have one religion and are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims. In spite of being divided into three religious orders they have a common social identity that is based upon their own code of conduct and behavior pattern. Jats are fiercely independent, honest, straightforward, humorous, large hearted and hard working people. They are also of talkative, bit high headed and rigid nature. Jats are subject to many jokes. They have unquestionable faith in the honor of their caste and community. They are fair, tall and physically tough people with sharp and round features. Racially they are Aryans belonging to either Vedic Aryan or Indo Scithain Aryan Branch.

2. Jats; Hindu, Sikh and Muslim, form 3-4% of the total population of the India and mainly live in the states of Uattar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Punjab, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh and Gujrat. In Pakistan they live in the states of Punjab, Sindh and North Western Frontier Province. Politically they are the force to reckon with. In the Green (food grain production) and white (milk production) revolutions of India, Jats have played a substantial role. Their contribution in the production of fruits and the vegetables is remarkable. Jats form the major chunk of both Indian and Pakistan armies. In the lighter vain; the key to solve Indo-Pak dispute lies with the Jats.

3. The Indian history is full of controversies. The Jat history is no exception. The origin of Jats is shrouded with disputes. Two theories of their origin; one of Vedic Aryan and second of Indo Scithian Aryan emerge. The latest discoveries strongly support the theory of origin of Jats from the Indo Scithian Aryan Branch. The names of most of the gotras of Jats do not sound Indian or from Sanskrit origin. The Jat word itself has not been mentioned in any of the Vedas, Upanishads and Puranas in the sense of a particular caste or race. However the mention of the word Jaat (t of Tota/Parrot) in these books more relates to the various castes in the society.

4. The word Jat is of medieval origin. The first time its found recorded as the word Jat in the Medivial history of Sind by Arab and Persian historians. These recordings mention of the defeat of a Jat king in the hands of Arab Muslim invaders. The imposition of many restrictions on the Jats by Muslim king on the advise of the Brahmans is also mentioned. The muslim invaders called the people with long hairs (Jata) tied together as a head gear and riding horses wearing arms as Jat. Theses people were certainly not following the Brahmanical religious order and were de-tasted by them. Their marshal characteristics are clearly mentioned in these records. In fact Arab invaders always had a fear of them therefore they tried to keep Jats under check by passing the orders like; Jats will not ride horses, will not wear arms and good clothes etc. The use of word Jat for people with long hairs riding horses with arms was soon got popularized among the Muslims and later on in the masses and there emerged a separate caste of people with distinct identity and behavior pattern. Slowly these people adopted different religions and are called Hindu/ Muslim/ Sikh Jat.

......see next post

16 Aug 02 Ashok

chashokverma
August 17th, 2002, 12:06 AM
5. It has been proven beyond doubt that the late ancient and medieval rulers (Saka, Kushan and Huns) of Northern Indian subcontinent including Afghanistan and part of central Asia were of Indo Scithian race. Their marshal habits of tying long hairs to protect their heads, riding horses with arms and their settling down in the villages for farming and taking buffalos (Vedic Aryans were cow herders not buffalo herders) for milking is well recorded. The Indo-Scithian man used to wear a long coat coming till knees (kurta like Nihangs) and wear Pagari over his tied long hairs. The Indo Scithian woman used to wear a long blouse (kameez) and heavy skirt (made of 30-60 meters of clothes). The Indo Aryan man used to wear a small dhoti and Ang Vastram ( a long cloth warped around his naked upper body). The king used to wear Mukut not Pagari as their head gears. The Indo Aryan woman used to wear a long cloth (Saree) wrapped around her complete body. The Indo Schithians under Buddhist influence became vegetarians. The comparison of Jat men and women of three to four generation old with the description of Indo Scithians Aryans and Vedic Aryans certainly places then closer to Indo Scithians (remember a Jat woman wearing a heavy skirt).
6. The ancient rulers; Saka (Hagan), Kushan ( Kanishk), Hun (Mihirkul) and medieval ruler Harsh Vardhan were not called Jats or Rajputs as these words were not in use but they were of Indo Scithian race. The racial origin of Jats from Indo Scithians is more authenticated. The fact is that Jats are the decedents of Indo Schithians rulers and has the parental right on their history. Some recent argument also suggests the linkage of famous ruler Chandra Gupta Vikramaditya who was ruling India from Ujjain in ancient times to Indo Scithian race.
7. Some of the Rajput Clans are also of Indo Scithain origin. In medieval period some of the ruling Indo-Scithian clans were purified and taken into Brahman folds. The origin of four Agni Vansh Rajputs; Chauhans (Chahawans), Parmars (Panwars), Solanki and Parihars in the medieval period is well recorded. First three clans are common among Jats and Rajputs. Those Indo Scithian clans who adopted the Brahmanical order were called as Rajputs and gained higher social status as most of them were the rulers of the time. Rest of the Indo Scithians slipped down to lower social status then Rajputs as they were not the rulers of the time. These people were later on called as Jats by the Muslim invaders. Slowely buddhist religious order disappeared from the Indian scene as the same was assimilated into Hindu folds. Therefore the Jats also came into Hindu folds.
.......seee next post

16 Aug 02 Ashok

chashokverma
August 17th, 2002, 12:10 AM
8. The study of Jadu Vansha clan throws the ample lights on the relationship between Rajputs and Jats. The earlier rulers from of this clan till 8th century AD were ruling from Bayana and were patronizing the Buddhist religion. These rulers were from Indo Scithian race (Hagan). One of the king down the generation, Maharaja Sind Pal patronized (rulers have no religion) Brahmans. He was given the status of a Hindu (Rajput) king and his genealogy was linked to Lord Krishna. He established the temple of Devi in Karoli. The decedents of Maharaja Sind Pal and Jaiyendra Pal are now divided into 18 Gotras. The 12 gotras of Jadon Thakur are part of Rajputs (including the Bhatis of Jaisalmer), 5 gotras ( Sinsinwar of Bharatpur rulers, Sogariya of Kr Natwar Singh, Hagan of Mahaban rulers, Nohwar of Noh Jheel and Ghayar) are part of Jats and one gotra is part of Khanjade Muslim Mev. But the question is how some of them once purified into brahmanical order then became Jats and Muslim. It’s a recorded fact that forefathers of these 5 Jat gotras though purified by Brahmans married into Jats at one time and others and lost the status of a Hindu Rajput. Their marrying into other non-purified Indo Scithian clans were natural as their fore-fathers have been marrying like that. It was suddenly in between that some of their forefathers had become Hindu Rajputs. It was very difficult for them to snap old marital ties with other Scithain clans.
9. Two violations were not acceptable to Brahmans after purification. These were; widow marriage and marriage with non-purified. The custom of Dhareja (marrying once widowed brothers wife) was a common practice of Scithians (Jats now). Who so ever violated these restrictions were thrown out of purified Scithians (Rajputs) status by the Brahmans. These people had no options but to marry non purified scithains and there by joined their original class. The fore-father of Sinsinwar married a non purified scithian girl (Jat). The fore-father of Hagan married his widowed Bhabhi. Similar was the case with the Ghayar and Sogariya. Nohwars became Muslim. They were brought into the Jat folds under the rign of Maharaja Jawahar Singh the ruler of Bharatpur as they were not acceptable to Brahmans. No purified Scithain clan (Rajput) was willing to give them their daughters in marriage. Non purified Scithians (Jats) accepted them. Attempts were also made to re-convert Khanjade Muslim Mev but they refused.
10. With the new facts coming to light it is now clear that Rajputs and Jats are the decedents of Scithains. The Purified Scithians are now called the Rajputs and the Non purified ones the Jats. This distinction has been made by the Brahmans to serve their narrow interests. In the modern societies these discriminatory attitudes have no place. People have to grow out of their narrow shells. The study of one’s weaknesses and the strengths is basically to learn the lessons to adopt oneself as per the requirements of the modern human society. The study of the history is one of required ingredient. Jats because of their distinct common qualities and behavior patterns, irrespective of their religion have the strengths to walk along with the modern society. The urgent need is to have facilities for the modern quality education and diversifications of their professional fields. There is also a need to have a common plate form to have more close interactions so that the common strategy can be evolved and implemented.

16 Aug 02 Ashok

ravichaud
August 17th, 2002, 12:20 AM
Absolutely OUTSTANDING Post.
Ravi

saurabhsaharan
August 17th, 2002, 12:35 AM
Wow!!! This was THE BEST post I have read on this site!!!!

Thanks a ton Ashok Bhai for sharing this wonderful information, and please keep posting such articles!!!!!

yvsgaawar
August 17th, 2002, 01:11 AM
Hi Ashok Verma Ji,
What a WORK!!!. Great JOB SIR, please keep posting such an informative emails.

Thanks

chashokverma
August 17th, 2002, 11:34 PM
1. The concept of Castes and Gotra is a Brahmanical system of deciding ones social status so that all rites including marriage as per the Manu Smrati can be conducted. Manu Smrati divides the Hindu society into four varnas; Brahman, Khatriya, Vaishya and Shoodra. The other non-Hindus were not included into this division. In the same Varnas there are many Castes and in the same Caste there are many Gotras. The word ‘Gotra’ is a Sanskrit word which means ‘ the place to keep cows’ (Gao- cow+ atra-place or shed). The Vedic Aryans were basically cow herders. They settled down in the vast land of Bharata in pockets after clearing Jungles. There were large distances between these settlements. Population was sparse. It was not the India of today. River Saraswati was flowing in Haryana. Each settlement had commonplace to keep cows and in rotation some people from the settlement were detailed to take cows for grazing (as the practice is now even prevalent in the villages of Rajasthan). Cow grazing was the biggest socializing opportunity and event to share the honor of a particular gotra (cow was and is the most respected animal by the Brahmans). Therefore from the place of the cows the Vedic Aryans derived their name of gotra. As the distances between these settlements were large Sa-gotra marriage (marrying into same gotra) was a common practice ( as was prevalent in the Pharaohs of Egypt). With the increase of population density and many more settlements, many gotras came within the interacting distances and the marriages among the same Gotra was prohibited. There were Varnas as per the profession of a person, which could change but the castes were not yet created.
2. Then came the migration of Indo Scithians. As per Sri-mad Bhagawat Puran, after the battle of Mahabharat the Arjuna is send by Yudhistir to Dwarka to find out the well being of Kishna. He comes back after seven months to inform Yudhitir about the collapse of Jadu Vansha because of fighting within themselves and disappearance of Lord Krishna. He also tells about of his defeat in the hands of some animal grazers and his inability to reach Dwarka.. Yudhistir also expresses his anxiety by sating certain ill omens. It is then that Pandwas migrate to Himalayas. Sri-mad Bhagwat Puran also mentions the presence of some irreligious people and the story of punishment of them in hands of Raja Parikchit, the grand son of Arjun. After Raja Parikchit the Padu Vansh lost power. Who defeated them?
3. It is a known fact that Sakas (one of the earliest branch of Indo Schithain Aryans) invaded Indian Sub continent from a place called Jatie in Persia ( may be the Sakas were also called Jats because of their place of origin in persia. But there is no evidence to support this) through Baluchistan- Sindh- Sourashtra (Gujrat) – Malwa (MP)- Mathura (North India). The route taken by them and the sequence of collapse of Jadu and Pandu vanshas establishes the fact that the so-called irreligious people in Bhagavat Puran were the Sakas. They first invaded Jadus in Dwarka and conquered Gujrat, Northern Maharashtra- Malwa (MP) and Mathura before defeating much stronger Pandus in North India. In the entire history of India, only Sakas took this route for conquering India.

....see next post

17 Aug 02 Ashok

chashokverma
August 17th, 2002, 11:43 PM
4. The rise of Buddhism in India forced Brahmans to go on the counter offensive. By their intelligent moves of declaring Budha as Vishnu’s Avtar and adopting certain ways of Budhist worship including meditation. The Brahmans were successful in their move to absorb Buddhism totally into Hinduism. With the arrival of so many invaders of different clans and their absorption in the Hindu folds by way of purifications, the Brahmans brought in the concepts of castes and the Manu Smriti was accordingly rewritten. The castes were created to ensure Brahman dominance and the inter caste marriages were prohibited to ensure their racial purity. It was an intelligent move. The caste of Rajput was created to ensure their firm grip over political power. But this whole re-structuring of society done to serve the interests of the Brahmins weakened the political power structuring. No political power in the country could establish the empires as established by Ashoka, Sakas, Kanishk, Chandra Gupta Vikramaditya and Harsha. The various worrier castes kept on fighting with each others establishing their small kingdoms.
5. The divided socio-political structure in the country could not deal with the invasion of Arabs in Sindh (Brahmin-Jat rivalry), the 16 raids of Mahmud Gazanavi (except the Jats of Sind who looted the booty from him after his Somnath invasion) and the Two raids of Mohmd Gouri. At the time of first invasion of Gauri. Raja Anang Pal Tomar was ruling at Delhi. Tomar Jats in large numbers are residing now close to Delhi in Western UP and few villages close to Agra. Tomars are also Rajputs who live near Gwalior. Jat and Rajput Tomars have the common ancestry to the Raja Anang Pal Tomars. The common ancestry of Jats and the Rajputs to the Scithains is once again proven with this fact.. It is a established fact that Raja Prathvi Raj Chouhan who was ruling in areas of Ajmer in Rajasthan was the son of the daughter of Raja Anang Pal Tomar. Raja Anag Pal Tomar was more then 70 yrs old when the threat of first of invasion of gouri came up. He called his Dhevata, Raja Prathvi Raj Chouhan to lead the coalition army against invasion. The army fought well and the Gouri was defeated. After winning the battle, Raja Anang Pal Tomar went to Haridwar for a pilgrimage leaving Prathvi Ral Chouhan at Delhi. When he returned his Dhevata; Raja Prathivi Raj Chouhan refused him the kingship of Delhi. The followers of Tomars were annoyed. Raja Prathivi Raj had also annoyed Jaya Chand and so were the Chandelas. All three major political powers in the North India were not with Chouhans. In the second invasion Raja Prathivi Raj Chouhan was alone with his army with some more kings. The coalition was weak. He was defeated and later on killed by the Gouri.
6. Its clear now that the social structuring of the Hindus with time and foreign invasions became more rigid and defensive. The division of society into the castes and also the division of warrior class into Jats (non purified scithians), and Rajputs ( Purified Scithians) weakened the political structuring. On the similar pattern gotras were also created. The inter gotra rivalry further weakened the society. Jats like any other Hindu caste have numerous gotras. How so many of them were created? The creation of a new gotra takes place one; when a new kingdom is founded and the Raja is given a new name by the Brahmans. Two; The power is lost the clan of the Raja migrates to other areas and establishes himself with the new name. Three; On purification Brahmans give a new name. Four; When out cast by the Brahmans. Five; some people of a Gotra migrate to another areas and settle down in a newly founded village with a new name. Six; any change of profession. Seven; the original Scithian identity is kept.

.... see next post

16 Aug Ashok

chashokverma
August 17th, 2002, 11:50 PM
7. Jats because of their habits to remain in power and showing tendencies to migrate and also because of the discriminatory attitudes of Brahmans have many Gotras. A very interesting fact is that the Jats like Rajputs have Gotras belonging to Sun and Moon dynasties both and also that many of Gotras in Rajputs and Jats have common name due to their same ancestry. Sikarwars, Shehrawat and Shekhawats of the Rajputs all originated from Sikar and have Common ancestry. Chahars Jats have common ancestry with the Chouhans of Rajputs. Chouhans, Sikarwars, Panwars (Parmars), Solanki and Tomars are both Jats and Rajputs. Hagan, Sinsinwar, Nohwar, Ghayar and Sogariya have common ancestry with the Jadon and Bhati Rajputs. Rathores of rajputs and Rathees of Jats have common ancestry. The name of most of the old Jat Gotras like Hagan, Chouhan, Dhaiyya and Tomar don’t sound Indian. Some of the gotras have originated from the names of their place of origin. Like Sikarwar from Sikar, Sinsinwar from Sinsini, Nohwar from Nohjheel. Sogariya from Sogar and Dhayya from Dhaiyie in Central Asia.


17 Aug 02 Ashok

saurabhsaharan
August 18th, 2002, 01:29 AM
This is great stuff!!!!!!

Please keep it coming!!!!!

Saharan

ranjitjat
August 18th, 2002, 02:33 AM
Ashok Varma JI
Great information, please keep posting.
Please let us know source of this information.
This is published or unpublished matter.
Best wishes & ramram

rsdalal
August 18th, 2002, 03:20 AM
Very much informative.
Thanks and keep it up.

saketdhankar
August 18th, 2002, 03:29 AM
ashok varma ji

yeh jat maange more...information...

thanks a lot for sharing info,
saket.

yvsgaawar
August 19th, 2002, 08:35 PM
Nice Work!!! Keep going.

Best luck,

amitdahiya
August 21st, 2002, 08:25 PM
Respected Varma Ji
Ref yr quote
...."10. With the new facts coming to light it is now clear that Rajputs and Jats are the decedents of Scithains. The Purified Scithians are now called the Rajputs and the Non purified ones the Jats. This distinction has been made by the Brahmans to serve their narrow interests"....

I feel that the concept of Purified and unpurified peoples needs to be discredited completely. We should not even use these phrases because they only serve to perpetuate an evil and demeaning concept perpetuated by a shallow people of low consciousness. These concepts enjoy currency only if they are used and we should be the last to use them. That we are the original Kshatriya Warrior clans that spearheaded the Aryan movement/migration/evolution,is beyond any contradiction, today we have emerged from several millennium of turmoil with our martial instincts and individual pride intact whereas the so called 'pure' communities are in aserious state of decline, decay and growing decadence. Looking at our respective societies we have no reason to presume that we do not represent the pure original Aryan clans along with the best. I came across a very interesting fact in village SORHAM DISTRICT MUZAFFARNAGAR(?) It seems that on arriving in India the Brahmins sought to consolidate their hold on society by promoting the idea that for the development of the newly arrived societies it was necessary to be divided into kingdoms and elect Kings for progressive Governance. Those who subscribed to this idea became the Rajputs. The Jats said that it was not necessary to elect Kings since we were all kings any way. ( Incidentally Jats are recorded and recognosed as one of the 5 or 7 royal tribes that ruled the world between three and 5 millennia ago) Refer to B.S. Dahiya's Books on the Jats to further corroborate this bit of verbal history which comes down to us as part of a legacy of collective memory of the clans.

Your views and comments on this please.

Regards respects
Amit Dahiyabadshah

chashokverma
August 21st, 2002, 09:56 PM
The names of Jats give out some very important historical clues. Though the names at birth are given by Brahmans but some of the titles used before names or middle names or sur names are of historical significance. Titles like Choudhary and Thakur used before names, Middle and sur names like Pal, Verma or Varma, Malik, Rana and Faujdar have their own history. These titles are not gotras. The titles; Thakur, Pal, Varma and Rana have hindu origins. The titles of Choudhary, Malik and Foujdar have Muslim origin.

The oldest used title is Varma. It is also one of the names promptly pronounced by Brahmans during marriage ceremony. This name can even be found in the Puranas. This is also one of widely used title by princely class as well as some of the backward castes across the country. The Raja of Tranvacore, Manipur and some of the castes having ruling affiliation
in Bengal use this title as Varma, Varmah and Burman. Some of the backward carpenter castes also use this sur name in UP. Raja Mahendra Pratap Varma of Mursan State (now a town with a fort and located between Mathura and Hathras) also used this title. Raja Mahendra Pratap Varma was a Thenua jat. Raja Saheb later on joined freedon struggle and escaped to Afghanistan, where he
was made the 'FIRST PRESIDENT OF THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA IN EXILE'. An achievement not less then the achievements of Ch Charan singh and Sir Chotu Ram in its magnitude rather far bigger. He was paid a formal tribute by the Government of India which included the President, Prime minister and the the parliament of the country after the independence. Unfortunately his achievements have gone un-noticed and unsung due to the biased attitudes. We need to give him the respect which he deserves. His achievements were of international significance. Jat Samaj should take note of this and give him his dues. The title varma is of Hindu origin. Jat rulers were given this title for their affiliation with the Hinduism therefore it is promptly used by the Brahmans while defining the religious position of Jats. Many Jat gotras write their sur name as Varma.

Very few people understand that word PAL is also a title. This word is widely used among Hindu and Sikh Jats like Samar Pal, Vijay Pal etc. Between 800-1100 AD almost entire north India and areas upto Orissa were ruled
by Pal Kings. Raja Samar Pal was ruling in Orissa. The fort of Raja Samar Pal is still existing close to Bhubneshwar. in fact the present Raja of Puri is decedent of Raja Samar Pal. Raja Sind Pal was ruling in entire Rajasthan from Bayana. Raja Anang Pal tomar was ruling
in Delhi. Except Kannauj and Bundel Khand rests of the area was under Pal Kings. In the latest history books in India this fact is being now recognized. Pal kings were earlier patronizing Buddhist religion. Later on they became Hindus with time as the distinction between Bidhism and Hinduism almost disappeared. The name Pal given to a king means protector of land. Even now it is very
common to use the word like; Hagaon kee Pal or Khap means the area of Hagan. This word is not of Hindu origin. it is more to do with the social structuring of Jats. This word is also
associated to Shepard like people. Jats were known for their migratory habits as it was the
essential character of a warrior. To explore the new areas and establish kingdoms.

.........see nest post




20 Aug 02 Ashok

chashokverma
August 21st, 2002, 10:43 PM
dear Dahiyaji

History is the true statement of facts.
The purification concept is the bitter fact of history and should be accepted as such. There is no need to feel emotional or insulted now in this modern time. The point is from where we have come, where we r and where we wanna go?the study of history helps us in deciding the correct course of action.



Then Jats being Aryan is not being questioned. The point is that they were not Indo-Aryans but the Indo scithian Aryans. Second; The Scithians (Jats and Rajputs) always ruled. The Scithians established great empires when they were one under Buddhist influence and distinction between them as Rajputs and jat was not existing. Kanishka, Harsh Vardhan, seven generation of Saka (Hagan) rulers were all scithians. They had very great empires of the size which the Rajputs could never established. Third; till the bigining of 1100 centuary the marriages between Rajputs and Jats were a common phenominon. The daughter of Raja Anang Pal Tomar, a Jat king ruling over Delhi was married in Chauhans. The Prthivi Raj Chouhan was Dhevata of Raja Anang Pal Tomar. Fourth; the purification was a Brahmanical trick, it in no way gaves greater advantage to Rajputs. rather it weakened them. Fifth; The use of word Rajput itself is under question. As per the customs in the royal families of Rajasthan, one meaning of Rajput is the son of a concubine. The use of word Rajput gained momentum under British rule. Brahmans never used this word. Britishers also used this word in generic term not for a specific caste. The Rajput and Rajputana Rifles Regiment of the army raised during British time have Rajputs and Jats both. Its a post Independence phenemenon to use this word to a particular caste which they never were.

No caste has ever continued ruling for more then seven generations. So called Rajput era as refered in our History books was very short lived time. The rayalities in rajasthan survived as it was a desert and Muslim rulers were not interested in contrlling it directely. The most royalities in Rajasthan migrated from UP where they were defeated by the invaders. The areas of Punjab, Haryana and UP were under the derect control of the muslim rulers as these were the most fertile lands.

I have used this word in the context of post independence situation for the better understanding of the present day readers. If Jats want to grow then they should never shy away from discussing something which may not be palatable to them.


21 Aug 02 Ashok

chashokverma
August 21st, 2002, 10:46 PM
Thakur title is also used by some gotras; Thenua, Thakureley, Sikarwar and Sinsinwar of Jats. First two gotras are found in large no (more then 250 vill) in the districts of Aligarh and Hathras along eastern bank of Yamuna. The last gotra is of Maharaja Bharatpur. The Jat king of Hathras Tahkur Daya Ram ruled over the area with this title. This title was bestowed upon the rulers of Hathras by the Maharaja Suraj Mal of Bharatpur. Thenua and Thakurely claim to have migrated to this area from the Malwa in MP. They with pride even now sing Dhola of Raja Bhoj and Gangu Teli. Raja Bhoj was a very famous king ruling from Dhara Nagari in Malawa. Probably they are
the decedents of Raja Bhoj. The Panwars gotra of rajputs and Jat are also decedents of Raja Bhoj. The famous Armed Regiment of The India Army ' Skinner's and Skinner Horse' was
raised by the Skinner with the help of Hatras rulers by enrolling Jats of this area. Sikarwars of Rajputs and Jats both use this title.
The title is of Hindu origin and was generally granted by the superior Hindu King. The persons given this title were responsible to collect the taxes on behalf of his superior king and were obliged to provide certain quantum of force to him in case of any military campaign. The title gave the status of a local Raja to the person whom it was given.

......to be contd

21 Aug 02 Ashok

rajeshsindhu
August 22nd, 2002, 02:24 AM
Thanks Ashok Ji, for enlightening everyone.
May be later on we can preserve this whole thread under history section.
keep it up!
-Rajesh

mansi
August 22nd, 2002, 06:52 PM
Ashok ji
let me appreciate the efforts and hard work you had done on this research and the time you take to put together this matter for we all ,surely your work and efforts deserve more then these few words of appreciation .your constantly coming up with new findings and thoughts on this topic shows your dedication behind your writing and these words are just to let you know that it is a great job please keep it up!thanks once again for letting us all read and know these wondeful facts and findings about JAT in total and compiling this text for us.:-)
look forward for more.:-)
regards !
Mansi

chashokverma
August 22nd, 2002, 11:14 PM
The next prominent title among the Jats used along with their name is RANA. The Rana Rai and Rao are similar titles used by Rajas. Rai is very common in Eastern UP and Bihar. Rao in eastern Rajasthan and Southern Haryana. But both theses names are not associated with Jats. Rana Rajas of Dholpur are Jats. They have many villages in the district of Agra and Dholpur. Rana Rajas were originally ruling in the Gohad; a place near Gwalior MP. For some times they also controlled the fort of Gwalior. The Scindhias of Gwalior and Ranas were traditional rivals and many battles were fought between them. Inspite of Scindhias being powerful Jats Ranas could not be defeated. It was only during British rule that a compromise formula was found. The areas of Dholpur North of Chambal river were given to Ranas and Gohad went to Scindhias. Chambal river being the inter-state boundry. In fact the Raja of Dholpur later on was married into Scindhia family. The Jat Ranas of Dholpur were entitled for 14 gun salute during British period. The Rajput kings also used Rana title. The title is of Hindu origin.

The title Choudhary is widely used by the Jats. The title is of Muslim origin. The title was conferred on the local Raja at the level of Mahal or Pargana. Like Thakur, the Choudhary was responsible for tax collection on behalf of the ruling authority in Delhi and was also supposed to provide foot and cavalry soldiers to the king if requisitioned. The Muslim Turk and Afgan rulers of Delhi started the system. They devided the areas under their control into two category. The most fertile areas of Indo-Gangatic plains were into their direct control. These areas were divided into various Subas governed by Subedar. Each Suba consisted few Sirkars governed normally by the Foujdars. Each Sirkar had few Mahals or Parganas, which were governed by Choudharies or Muquadams. Each Pargana had many villages. Muslims never interfered in the affairs of the villages. The heads of the Subas and Sirkars were normally Muslims except few Hindu Loyalists. But many Hindus belonging to warrior classes were made heads of the Mahals or Parganas as Choudharies or Muquadams. Jats who were in such positions were always given the title of Choudhary.

At the time of muslim conquest the population density in the Indo-gangatic plains especially in UP was very less. The fleeing population also vacated some of the areas. Most of the invading Muslim population was mainly involved in the profession of soldiering. There were plenty of areas, which could be cleared of marshes and Jungles for the agricultural purposes. These newly developed areas helped Muslim rulers in gaining more income in terms of taxes. Therefore as state policy the Muslim rulers encouraged certain castes to migrate into these areas. Accordingly grants were given with the title of Choudhary. Most of the Jats of Mujjafarnagar, Meerut, Bulandshahar migrated into these newly acquired areas from Rajasthan or Punjab.


………… to be contd

23 Aug Ashok

chashokverma
August 22nd, 2002, 11:31 PM
I appreciate the encouraging response from the readers. It is my endeavoure to provide more and more information. But with my busy schedule it may not be possible for me to keep on writing like this. But I assure the readers that at least once in a week the information will be posted on the site. There is plenty to write.

Some of the honourable readers have asked me for the source of information. All the fact which i have brought out are based the leading evidences. I, at personal level am envolved into a kind of research work on the subject for last 7-8 yrs. It is my hobby and passion both to understand the History including Jat History.
Even at this stage I am learning. More deep I go into the subject more new facts come out.
But thanks to new research works done by the scholor of Hisotry the right facts are now emerging. I at some stage shall be giving the links of some web pages which provide plathora of information on the Jat History.

saurabhsaharan
August 22nd, 2002, 11:35 PM
Thanks Verma Ji again for this valuable information!!

Can you also give a rough timeline of when these events were taking place. I am especially interested in the part where you describe Jat migration from Rajasthan to Western UP. I am from distt. Meerut and my forefathers migrated from Rajasthan some 500 years ago. Do you have more infomration about this migration pattern and some approximate timeline.

Thanks once again!! Please keep it up!!

Saharan

chashokverma
August 23rd, 2002, 12:19 AM
Dear Saharan

If you read the Hindi book ' Sona aur Khoon, by Acharya Chatur Sen most of your queries about migration of Jats to Meerut will be answered. The book is in three volumes. In its centerstage is one Choudhary Family of Garh Mukteshwar.

chashokverma
August 25th, 2002, 05:22 PM
Other titles of Muslim origin used by Jats in their name are; Foujdar and Malik. The Khoontela (Kuntal), Chahar and Sinsinwar Gotras write Foujdar after their names. The Foujdar was a military rank given to a person who was supposed to command certain numbers of Cavalry ( 3500+) and Infantry and was given certain military and administrative responsibility. Normally head of Sirkar or In charge of some section of Highway for the protection of royal convoys. One time or other the one of the forefathers of theses Jat gotras were either made Foujdar of Mathura or Mahaban Sirkar or were made responsible to protect highway between Agra and Delhi. Similarly Malik was the title given to a person holding certain important administrative responsibilities in the Darbar or in an area. Gathwal one of the gotra of Jats write this title after their names. All these titles were given without any relation to Caste and religion.

saurabhsaharan
August 26th, 2002, 11:09 PM
Thanks Verma Ji,

I'll try to get that book.

Saharan

vinoddhaaka
August 27th, 2002, 02:25 PM
Dear Ashok Ji,
Its a very interesting piece of scholarly work. So many strands of Jats history make it very difficult for any scholar to synthesize a coherent whole theory of Jats through history. But such topsy turvy of their history also proves their victory over travails of time. Perhaps future hold more of it for them. Thanks

chashokverma
August 29th, 2002, 10:55 PM
The most prominent truth about Indian History is that India made rapid advances when the strong political structure was in place and also that such politico-social structure could only be achieved under Buddhist influence when the then kings in power could develop cohesion in the society at large under the religious sanction. After the fall of Buddhism no repeat no great empire could be established till the arrival of Muslims. Why? As the society was fractured on the caste lines. It is not that caste system was totality bad. It had certain advantages but in certain times only. Rightly so Arya Samaj also propagate the Idea of unity of mankind bringing much-needed religious sanction in the society.

Scithians (Jats) were always just in their administrations. This is where most of them were patronizing Buddhist religion, which gave the true massage of equality. But it did not mean that they did not have their own strong traditions. They like Mughals in India had their own social customs and traditions and therefore their unique identity. Which is still noticeable. Even in those days the Jats had the custom of widow marriage. Jat boy could marry any girl of any caste. Other way round it was not possible mainly because of the Inheritance of the property or the kingship problems.

Now the very natural question is how and why the Brahmans, the people without any physical power could control the mightiest of kings and remain in political power directly or indirectly? It is not that the Brahmans were not the rulers. In fact the Vedic Aryans had no castes. There was only the Varna Byavastha, which was based on the profession of man. Only three Varnas; Brahmans, Chatryias and Vaishya existed. Their Sanskar Vidhis were same with some variations. Inter Varna marriage were very common. Even in Puranic period there are number of examples of a Chatriya marrying a Brahman girl. The sons of same father in this period also could be part of different Varnas. The word ‘Chatriya’ is derived from Chattees, 36 Royal Kulas. These 36 Chatriya Kulas consist of 12 Brahman Vanshis, 10 Soorya Vanshis, 10 Chandra Vanshis and 4 Agni Vanshis royal Chatriya Kuls. Note the first 12 Brahman Chatriya kuls. In fact they were the first rulers of Aryavarta during Vedic period. Another interesting fact is that the Chatriyas of other two Vanhas; Chandra and Soorya are also decedents of Brahman Rishis. As per myth It is only the four Agni Vanshis those who were born out of fire and are not the decedents of Rishis. So the fact is out of 36 royal Chatriya Kuls, 34 are born out of rishis. So as long as these chatriya kuls were ruling during Vedic and Puranic period, Brahamans were always in the center of power as they were regarded highest in social order due to their profession of knowledge. The system had smooth functioning, as the social division was not rigid at all.


.........contd

ashok

chashokverma
August 29th, 2002, 10:58 PM
The problem for Vedic Aryan started only when the Indo-Scythians invaded the country. The arrival of these people is mentioned in Srimad Bhagvat Puaran starting from the period of King Bharat; whose name has been given to our country. These people were far ahead in the art of warfare but were not so advanced in the field of knowledge. As always is the practice the advanced civilization one time or other become victim of backward civilizations. Then the mix up of these streams give birth to the new flow of social order and after a brief halt the civilization again moves forward. This is where it is said the civilizations move forward in hopping action. So the Brahmans who were following the path of dharma and knowledge were highly regarded by these invaders. With the mix of thoughts of these two races a new religious order in form of Buddhism emerged. The highly conscious and knowledgeable Brahmans took some time to adjust with the new reality but b’cas of their timely corrective measures and intelligent moves and tricks they again came in forefront. Most of the invaders adapted to the newly corrected ways of Brahmans and were assimilated into the new social order where the castes were created and inter caste marriages were debarred on the name of racial purity. So again due to their intelligence and high conscious lavel the Brahmans remained in the center of political power. The invaders due to their hard and tough jobs of the soldiering and agriculture could never devote enough time for gaining knowledge like Brahmans and remained dependent on Brahmans for guidance

chashokverma
September 29th, 2002, 09:46 PM
Jats must learn from their history and adopt themselves as per the norms of information revolution wherein the concept of caste does not hold any value. The real strength lays in the access to the information whatever kind it may be and the capability to exploit the same in their advantage.

Jats had always shown the progressive attitudes. Just see the examples: 1. Jats always had the custom of widow marriage (Dhareja), 2. In Jats only, the widow lady on his second marriage can bring her children from previous husband in the new family (Lenda children). Such children were given the equal rights in the property, 3. Girl of any caste when married into the Jat family was given the same share as any Jat girl. The children of such marriage were considered Jats and married accordingly, 4. Jats had a very strong tradition of Panchayat (a true democratic form of decision making).

All these customs of Jats show that they always have been of progressive mind. It is only with the influence of Brahmans and Rajputs some of the ills have seeped into Jat society. Like killing of girl child.

Jats have never shown any strong affiliation to Brahman (Hindu) religion. The same is evident by: 1. Jats by and large do not worship any God. In Jat homes in villages the idols normally will not be found. The worship pattern as visible now is the latest adoptions as printed calendars are presented to them while buying fertilizer bags, 2. Jats and Brahmans do not see eye to eye. For Brahmans he is still a Jat Ssaalla. The enmity is age old because Jats have always questioned the Brahmanical thoughts of dividing the society. It is common site in villages a Jat asking a Brahman; have you seen GOD? That’s why even in Satyarth Prakash Swami Dyanand Swarswati has narrated a story about a Jat and a Brahman. In recent times Arya Samaj appealed the Jats most as it talks about equality and wages war against the ills of Brahamanism, 3. Jats have no deity except those Jats who became Rajputs and after some times again joined the mainstream like Sisinwar of Bharatput state have Hanuman, Haga Jats of Mathura and Hathras have Dauji Maharaj (elder brother of lord Krishna).

In Braj Chetra, bye and large people worship Dauji Maharaj not the lord Krishna. But even then no idol of Dauji will be found in the homes of Jats as the patronage of deity was restricted to the heads of communities like Kings and Choudhary. People once in a while just go to Dauji; a town close to Mathura for Darshan. But there also the moment a Panda sees a Jat he goes off to other way. Jats have never respected the Brahmans the way Rajputs have done. The reasons are obvious as the Jats are NOT HINDU (the follower of Brahmanical order). They have very strong customs and identity of their own.

A Jat believes in Karma (work) and Purosharth. He is very close to nature therefore innovative and down to earth. He speaks truth, as he believes he is JAT not because he fears the GOD. The image of a JAT is his GOD and the Jat Panchayat his Dharma. Very few races or castes or tribe have shown these tendencies. Like Mongols and Afghans in Muslims. They follow their customs more then the Muslim religion.

deepakdahiya
January 19th, 2005, 04:31 PM
great coolection verma sir

thans for updating our knowledge about jat history.

sunildahiya
January 20th, 2005, 09:25 AM
Verma Ji

Aap ne bahut achi jankari di

Thanks

sukhbirsingh
February 22nd, 2005, 06:25 PM
Very nice collection Sir, First time I studied too much about Jats, But one thing I want to know that the what so called Thakur in U.P. M.P. or Bihar now Can they be related to those rajputs which you related here with jats. Second thing Sir- Thakurs are not as talls and well bult as jats also one things in Jats is There sharp featured face specially long Nose i.e.not coomon in them.
Also sir what does SCYTHIAN term indicate here.
Can u put some lights on this sir?
Your work is excellent.

ajayverma1973
February 22nd, 2005, 06:46 PM
Dear Ashok Vermaji

I thank u very much for this educative matter. It is very interesting too.

Regards,

minhassukhdev
April 3rd, 2005, 10:21 PM
Ch. Ashok verma ji thank's for all this information. I need some information from you if you have, I am from minhas gotra, minhas are Rajput, and Jat also, And minhas fanunded bay mananhans, brother of surajhans ruler of jammu.virk jat also consider themself from mananhans . Minhas mostly living in J&K, Punjab and Himachel. If you have more informathon about Minhas gotra pl e-mail me. minhas.minhas@chello.at

sampuran
November 7th, 2005, 05:11 PM
Very interesting information.

There seems to be some basic dichotomy somewhere like the 'Chicken and egg" dilemma. Let me try to gather some details.

sampuran
November 12th, 2005, 12:58 AM
Ram Ram to all. This particular topic has been quite unusual one. Every reaction has been a pat on the back for Ch Ashok Kumar. He has gathered lot of information and covered a lot of history. Unfortunately the sources have not bee cited, except the Jagas.
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Ch Ashok has single handedly demolished the usual perception of Jat history in ffice:smarttags" /><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:place>India</ST1:place></st1:country-region>. And he has got kudos from all ! At the same time he has pointed out the root causes of the ills of Jat society today – the Brahamans. I wish so much of hatred had been spared. Perhaps most of us similar perception. Hence the unusually high no of kudos. Where have we reached ? All kinds of wild allegations are heaped upon a section of population who rarely had any political or military power.
Jats were always outside Brahaman’s close control, but they could not keep aloof from casteism !
Most of all Brahaman’s made a trade out of creating new Gotras for Jats !
The use of word Rajput gained momentum under the British rule. The Brahamans never used this word. Still Brahamans were dividing the Jats by purifying some of them into Hindu fold !
Ch Ashok Vermaji, in one stroke you have made us rootless people. We are not Indians nor are we Hindus.

sampuran
November 12th, 2005, 12:59 AM
A Vedic civillisation that is the mother of even the ancient Greeks what to talk of office:smarttags" Asia. Still Scythians appeared as a totally new breed ?

What is most disappointing is the reaction of forum members. How do we get swayed so much that such glaring prejudices and mischievous claims get lauded ? Have we forgotten our history or did not know at all ?

An article full of contradictions and not one critique ? Not one to raise an eyebrow ?

I wonder what the sources of Ch Ashokji’s information are. There are many enemies and fifth columnists who would go to any extent to create fissures in the Indian and Hindu society.
Hope the members have noted that a stooge of Arabia had the audacity to cast aspersions on Prithvi Raj Chauhan’s mother.
Knowing the grave threat to Indian civillisation isn’t it time the intellectuals and educated give up their baggage of dislike fsor fellow Indians ? Can we not do something to root out the differences even if they exist today ? Otherwise, we are strengthening the enemies of Bharatmata.

sampuran
November 13th, 2005, 02:12 AM
Dear Adminitrator
I am having some problem in posting. It says too many images and asks to cut them down to 10. That does not cover more than one para. As you can see in the above post, spellings have got distirted. Pl correct.
Thanks

rkumar
November 14th, 2005, 08:06 PM
Pre-Islamic history of West Asia
Manju Gupta

Once Upon a Time by Sudhakar Raje, Babasaheb Apte Samarak Samiti, 180 pp, Rs 100.00

Sudhakar Raje with painstaking effort has culled into some 200 pages the pre-Islamic Hindu history of the non-Muslim West Asia. He begins his book by saying that "icons, temples and scriptures (along with the language in which they are written) are evident, recognisable relics of the imprint Hindu influence has left on the world." Quoting Anwar Shaikh, a Pakistani Muslim scholar who, referring to Manu Smriti, has said, "Here is a Vedic law which clearly shows Vedic influence on the Middle Eastern culture and the Reformation that took place in Europe," the author says that the most modern imprint is that of the amazing progress of ancient Hindus who achieved in the sciences ranging from mathematics to medicine, from astronomy to engineering."

The book starts with Hindu influence in the hoary past in south- eastern Turkey at Nevali Cori. Prof. Herald Hauptmann of Germany, through excava-tion had come across "well planned massive structures, almost competing in finesse with the imposing architecture of the Assyrians who lived in the region thousands of year later. They are erected in staight lines and at right angles, like villas, with stone blocks. . . There was also an ancient form of air-condition-ing in each building. This was achieved though gaps in the floor, below which water from a stream in the region could be made to flow."

In Baluchistan is an island called Satadwipa where a Kali temple has been found and so is another temple of Mahadeva. This north-western region was a bustling centre of international trade during the heydays of the Indus Valley civilisation.

Archaeological research has resulted in discovery of protohistoric sites in Afghanistan that prove its close religio-cultural affinity with Hindu India. The author shows how references to Afghansitan, its rivers and towns are found in Rig Veda and that Ghazni had Hindu origin. What makes for moving reading is the reference to the two world-famous colossal statues of Buddha at Bamiyan, 53 and 35 metres tall, carved out of cliffs - "the remains that no longer remain" - thanks to the Taliban vandals who indulged in this wanton act because Islam required them to be butshikan (idol breakers).

The Iranian connection with Vedic India is traced back to the Rig Veda. The author quotes from Collecting the pebles Hibermicus written by Sir William Jones, "It has been proved by clear evidence and plain reasoning that a powerful monarchy was established in Iran long before the Assyrian or Pishdadi government, that it was truly a Hindu monarchy... that it subsisted many centuries, and that its history has been ingrafted on that of the Hindus who founded the monarchies of Ayodhya and Indraprastha."

Talking about the land between the two rivers - the Euphrates and Tigris, the author says ancient artefacts found in Mesopotamia (modern-day Iraq) point to the link with Vedic Hindus. Seals found in Sumeria of Mesopotamia are similar to those found at Mohenjodaro.

Even Syria is said to have a Hindu past, so much so that it derived its name from Surya or Sun.

Arabia, the homeland of Islam has a long and rich Hindu pre-history. Arabia stands for Arabastan which is a distortion of Sanskrit name Asvasthan meaning the land of horses. He explains how Guru Nanak even said that Kaba (in Mecca) was a Shiva temple. Hind was a popular name among pre-Islamic Arabs. One of Mohammed's wives was named Hind.

Discussing Egypt's Hindu heritage, the author says that hieroglyphs of Middle East and Indus Valley civilisations were similar, and has quoted French historian, who has said that "Egyptians of those times considered that Osiris had originally come from India, the land of Shiva."

The author through his book has succeeded in presenting a review of the pre-Islamic past a what is now known as the West Asia, broadly tracing the near-westward spread of Hindu religion, culture and civilisation in ancient times. "The pre-Islamic Hindu history of the non-Muslim West Asia appears to have begun at least 9,000 years ago and it continued literally for millenniums, at last coming to an end on the day Mohammad inaugurated Islam, with the destruction of the Hindu shrine of Kaba."

The author has aptly concluded his book by quoting Arnold Toynbee who had said, "It has already become clear that a chapter which had a Western beginning will have an Indian ending. At this supremely dangerous moment in human history, the only way of salvation for makind is the Indian way."

(Babasaheb Apte Samarak Samiti, 7 Madhusudan, Playground Road, Vile Parle (E), Mumbai-400 057.)

rkumar
November 15th, 2005, 11:09 AM
very important piece of research ;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/11/1114_051114_india.html

I won't be surprised that almost all world civilisations strted from Indian subcontinent. This should demolish many existing migration therories.

RK^2

rkumar
November 15th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Here is a response from Mr Sampuran Singh which he could not post for some technical reasons;

.................................................. ................................................
Ch Ashok Vermaji. Ram Ram.
It shows that you have done lot of work in posting the info on the
thread. However, as said in the earlier post there is some basic
dichotomy in your hypothesis. There are three major themes in your
posts:

1 JATS ARE EXTERNAL TO INDIA

You say they were Scythian attackers (or migrants). There is no
evidence of migration or of their attacks in the available historical
and literary records of India. Whether the same exists in Scythian
memory, I don't know.

The evidence of Puranas as historical treatise has to be treated with
caution. They are more imaginary, that's why while mentioning them we
use the term 'Katahyen'. Going by the Puranas, would we all agree
that numerous devatas lived in many lokas, scores of times the
Shrishti was on the verge of destruction by some mad Asur or other,
Narad Muni used to take frequent trips all over the universe ?

You have cited some dress codes and customs to be non-Hindu. Scythians
obviously had to have different types of dress because of the higher
latitudes and colder climate. But where is the evidence of their
coming here ? In fact, human migrations have been from warmer to
colder climates, as the civillisations progressed and human became
accustomed to lower temperatures and devised ways to keep themselves
warm. Some references can be found in the book - EAT RIGHT FOR YOUR
BLOOD TYPE

Just go across the Jawahar tunnel and you will find a stark difference
in the temperature, weather and the living style of the people. It
could be that Jats migrated from India to Scythia, hence the
similarity in the customs.

Jats or any farming (warrior) communities live a "Karmayogi" life. The
realization that it is one's effort and hard work that counts in
growing crops, rearing animals and fighting the enemy comes naturally
and early in life. No diety can help in these activities. Invocations
are purely for psychological reasons. Hence, such people never had a
special fancy for a particular deity or god. But it is doubtful if the
concept of God, the almighty, was alien to them !

Jats looked different and lived different because of their profession.
Don't we see the same thing even today – farmer dress in certain
manner, soldiers differently, professionals again differently,
politicians also differently, and so on. Except the followers of
early Islam (and today the proponents of Arabian looks for all
muslims) ruling elite in every society/religion have always lived
outside the control of the clergy. They follow whatever customs are
convenient to them. Nothing more.

Sh Jinnah used to wear western suits, smoked pipe and consumed liquor.
He would have rarely seen a mosque from inside. He looked at mullas
with contempt and derision. He spoke English with pride rather than
Arabic or Urdu. To say that Jats were non-Hindu is like saying Sh
Jinnah was not a muslim !

Historian Sh BS Dahiya has established the lineage of Jat Gotras going
upto Rig Vedic times. When they were already here many thousand years
before, how do you now say that they came from Scythia ?

The idea of India's civillisational expanse even at the time of
Mahabharat, covers all of central Asia, not just northern India and
present Pakistan. 'Utter Kuru' that is referred was what is present
day Turkmenisthan and Ujbekisthan. In the Indian memory and outlook
all these areas were also 'Aryavrat' ( Read INCREDIBLE ARAYN
TECHNOLOGY BY NATALIA LESHKOVA AT www.organiser.org ) It gives you a
fair idea of the spread of Indian civillisation in ancient times.
(3000 BC). So Sakas were no different than Indians as far as culture
is concerned. They may have conquered northern India but that does not
make them alien to Indian culture.

It would have been much better had a timeline been given as to when
(AD or BC) something happened. The world talks of 1550 AD and before
as medieval period. When they say ancient you may go back to 1500 –
2000 BC. But in Indian context this is not too distant. Mahabharat war
was fought around 3100 BC, As per one estimate Ram was born on 10
January 5114 BC.(http://spirituality.indiatimes.com/articleshow/278911.cms)
Based on Vedang Jyotish, this date is 17 January 10205 BC ! ( THE
RAMA LEGEND BY V Sundaram). The Vedas were compiled before that. It
since those times that women addressed their husbands as 'Aryaputra' .

Saraswati dried up around 2000 BC. The epicenter of Indian
civillisation shifted to Indus valley and the Gangetic plains.
However, there were migrations further westwards to Persia and beyond,
and into European region. That's when Zoroastrianism was born in
Persia. It is almost like the Vedic religion.

Vedas were the religious scriptures to which the Arabs owed allegiance
as early as 1800 B.C. A poem was written by Labi-Bin-E-
Akhtab-Bin-E-Turfa who lived in Arabia around 1850 B.C. The verse can
be found in Sair- Ul-Okul which is an anthology of ancient Arabic
poetry. It was compiled in 1742 AD under order of the Turkish Sultan
Salim. It proves not only the antiquity of the Vedas but also the
existence of Indian rule over the entire region from the Indus to the
Mediterranean.

Vedic culture was very much alive just before the birth of Muhammad.
Again let's refer to the Sair-Ul-Okul. The following poem was written
by Jirrham Bintoi who lived 165 years before the prophet Muhammed. It
is in praise of India's great King Vikramaditya who had lived 500
years before Bintoi.

(Sair-ul-Okul, Page 315)

"Fortunate are those who were born
during King Vikram's reign, he was
a noble generous, dutiful ruler devoted
to the welfare of his subjects. But at
that time, We Arabs oblivious of divinity
were lost in sensual pleasures. Plotting
& torture were rampant. The darkness of
ignorance had enveloped our country.
Like the lamb struggling for its life
in the cruel jaws of a wolf, we Arabs
were gripped by ignorance. The whole
country was enveloped in a darkness as
intense as on a New moon night. But the
present dawn & pleasant sunshine of
education is the result of the favor of
that noble king Vikram whose benevolence
did not lose sight of us foreigners as we
were. He spread his sacred culture amongst
us and sent scholars from his own land
whose brilliance shone like that of the sun
in our country. These scholars & preceptors
through whose benevolence we were once again
made aware of the presence of god, introduced
to his secret knowledge & put on the road to
truth, had come to our country to initiate us
in that culture & impart education."

In his book Origines, Volumes 3 & 4", Sir W. Drummond adds:

"Tsabaism was the universal language of mankind when Abraham received
his call, their doctrines were probably extended all over the
civilized nations of Earth."

Tsabaism is merely the corruption of the word Shaivism which is Vedic
religion. (INCIDENTLY Vikramaditya himself was a devotee of Lord Shiv)
On page 439 of this book, Sir Drummond mentions some of gods of
pre-Islamic Arabs, all of which were included in the 360 idols that
were consecrated in the Kaba shrine before it was raided and destroyed
by Muhammad and his followers.
(http://p081.ezboard.com/fhinduunityarchivessectionhinduunitycom.showMessag e?topicID=112.topic)

You have said' "Jats being Aryans is not being questioned. The point
is that they were not Indo-Aryans, but Indo-Scythian-Aryans". The
fact is Aryans were Indians. They did not come from outside. Scythians
were also Aryans. Geographical distance would automatically bring
about linguistic and cultural differences. But that does not make them
non-Hindu. As far as outside attacks on the Indian civillisation are
concerned, Alexander - the Ordinary, was the first one. There is NO
evidence of any other before him. Next were the muslims. Even though
they came from the same stock, but the world view and behaviour
(dharama) of a person totally changes when he becomes a muslim. So you
can call them to be totally new breed. And last were the westerners in
17- 18 century AD. Detailed explanation is given in - DEBUNKING ARYAN
INVASION THEORY by David Frawley at www.vedanet.com

The point is simple – the spread and influence of indian civillisation
is far too big to make narrow conclusions that jats were outsiders.


2. BRAHMANS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THAT WENT WRONG OR IS WRONG WITH
INDIAN SOCIETY...............cont.

rkumar
November 15th, 2005, 01:41 PM
Unfortunately, far too much venom has been spewed on them. I wont go
into individual sentences, but to say, " It is only with the influence
of Brahamans and Rajputs some of the ills have seeped into Jat
society, like killing a girl child", indicates poor understanding of
historical influences on Indian society.

There is no doubt, civillisational decline started with the
degradation of Varnasharam dharma into hereditary caste system. That
was very early – in 3200 BC. Guru Dronacharya refused to teach Ekalvya
because the later was not a Kshatriya. That's why Sri Krishna had to
clarify in the Geeta - As per shloka numbered IV (13), depending upon
a persons guna (aptitude) and karma (actions), there are four varnas.
As per this shloka, a persons varna is determined by his guna and
karma, and not by his birth.

Furhter in Maneesha Panchakam of Sri Sankaracharya by Swami
Chinmayananda, Central Chinmaya Mission Trust, Mumbai the following
explanation is given - He who in his direct experience of the
Immaculate Supreme-Bliss-Eternal, has come to the firm understanding
that the entire universe is but an extensive play of pure
consciousness, all projected by his 'ignorance', expressed in the
three moods of his mind, while he himself is but that Brahman - he
alone is my Guru, be he a sweeper, be he a Brahmin.

The above two examples are to show that decline started long long back
and there were constant efforts to stem the same. However, the
question is ARE THE BRAHAMANS SINGLE HANDEDLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE SAME?

Could they have succeeded without full support of the rulers – the kshatriyas ?

Had not the kshatriyas given up their dharama and become selfish ?

Have not the Jats promoted casteism, even if they are not at the
pinnacle of the social ladder ?

With the kind of majority and might the Jats had, could they have not
corrected the brahamans ?

The answer is obvious to all of us. Everyone had an interest in
promoting casteism, except the poor untouchable Chooras. Why single
out the Brahamans.

The birth of Buddhism was a reaction to social violence. Buddha, a
prince, wanted peaceful settlement of the water dispute between his
kingdom and the neighbouring one. But the Sabha overruled him (some
example of democracy) and wanted to fight. That's why he took up
sanyas. This is the latest research by a dalit IAS officer. I shall
forward the specific references when available.
(www.countercurrents.org) Social equality was just a byproduct of
Buddha's preaching of non-violence. Its inequality that brings about
'ahm' in some and 'jealousy' in others.

So your contention that Buddhism was a result of synthesis between
what existed in India and what the Scythians brought does not stand.

The rise of Buddhism in India forced the Brahamans to go on a
counteroffensive. They brought in the concept of castes and the Manu
Smriti was re-written. But this whole re-structuring done to serve the
interests of the Brahamans weakened the political power. No political
power in the country could be established the empires as established
by Ashoka, Sakas, Kanishka, Chandragupta Vikramaditya and Harsha.

The theme of the above contention is factually wrong. Brahamans did go
on counter offensive, may be, also to preserve their own hold. But
hind – sight has amply demonstrated a vital weakness of Buddhism.

Those who jump with glee at the mention of the name of Ashoka, because
he was eulogised by H.G. Wells, must remember that, the mighty empire
which extended from the Bay of Bengal to the interior of Afghanistan
and from the Himalayas to deep down into the Deccan, barring the
southern-most tip, got so weakened under the constant chanting of
ahimsa from the pulpit and the throne that it disintegrated within 48
years following his death. After him, there was a succession of seven
kings in such a short period of time. Look at the political
instability brought in by his obsession with ahimsa. Last of the
Mauryan kings, Brihadrath, was beheaded.

In 259 b.c. Ashoka stopped the royal hunt. The question that arises
is: How would a king, who could not face a wild animal, face an enemy
on the battlefield and with what result? Before embracing Buddhism, he
was a warrior and had conquered Kalinga. But, once he became a
Buddhist, his martial spirit simply vanished.

Likewise, Harsha, before becoming a Buddhist, was a warrior. He had
secured the release of his imprisoned sister through bravery. But,
once he embraced Buddhism, he changed altogether into a different
person. His kingdom disintegrated and India's decline set in. Buddhism
flourished under state patronage and eventually took toll of its
patrons.

A parallel situation prevailed in India nearly half a century ago.
After Independence, Buddhism became the undeclared religion of the
ruling elite. Jawahar Lal Nehru carried pictures of Gautam Buddha in
the folders he carried, whenever he went on a foreign tour. A fellow
Kashmiri, Dr Kailash Nath Katju, Governor of West Bengal (later Home
Minister at the Centre), once carried the physical remains of Maha
Moglana and Sari Puttar, the two prominent disciples of Buddha, on his
head through the streets of Kolkata. Ahimsa was the pet refrain of
their speeches, from both the public and private platforms. This
obsession with ahimsa had a demoralising effect on the morale of the
Indian army. The same army that had won nearly two dozen Victoria
Crosses for its bravery during the Second World War, could no longer
capture even a dead Chinese in the 1962 conflict with China.

The famous 4th Indian Army Division (Kitehawk), which during the
Second World War fought in North Africa against General Rommel and
later at Monte Casino on the European mainland and won two Victoria
Crosses, cut a sorry figure when posted to defend the Se La Pass, at
the commanding height of 16,000 feet. When the Pass was occupied by
the Chinese, the Western press interpreted it as a staggering blow to
the Indian army. Ahimsa lay raped by the invading hordes.

At one time, Tibet was a military power. "Once they had imposed their
authority on the intervening tribes, the Tibetans pressed on into
China itself and in a.d. 635 their young king Song-tsen-Gampo demanded
and eventually received a Chinese princess as his bride." (Tibet & its
History by H.E. Richardson, pp. 28-29, 1962). But as the influence of
Lamaism grew, Tibet regressed into primitivism. And just recall where
it was in March 1959? Look at Burma (modern-day Myanmar) with its
insular society where Buddhism is still the State religion. This
country is conspicuous by its absence at all international fora. Dr.
S. Radhakrishnan wrote that Buddhism could not withstand the ferocity
of Muslim invasion and thus vanished from India.

Swami Vivekananda wrote that some Buddhist monasteries in India had
about one hundred thousand monks. When brain power and muscle power
had taken to the monastic order, only weaklings were left for the
progeny to defence. Taxila had more than 10000 students at any given
time. All, repeat, All of them were massacred in one single day, even
when they were totally unarmed and harmless. The library contained
more than 1 million books. It burnt for 3 days. At Nalanda, 30,000
Buddhists were slaughtered by one of the Khiljis, literature burnt and
university razed to the ground. In fact, all the existing universities
were destroyed by foreign invaders; and during the Muslim period, not
even one university was raised.

When on the battlefield of Kurukshetra, Arjuna was shirking duty and
inventing excuses to avoid fighting the enemy, it was the teachings of
the Gita which inspired him to cast aside impotence, stand up and
fight.

Adi Shankaracharya, the seer-philosopher, in his book Prashan Uttari
asks the question as to "who is a living dead"? He answers the
question himself by saying, "He who is not dynamic."
Shivaji was nurtured by his mother, Jija Bai, on the stories from the
Ramayana and the Mahabharata. The boy grew up into a warrior, stood up
to the tyrant Aurangzeb and carved out a kingdom of his own.

Lokmanya Tilak, the scholar-politician who wrote a commentary on the
Gita in Mandlay Jail, inspired the nation with the slogan—'freedom is
my birthright'.

During those dark days, when Chinese invasion was in full swing, in
order to boost the Indians' sagging morale, the Absolute Ahimsa Vadis
brought one Shankaracharya, who delivered his speech in Sanskrit, on
the foreign service of All India Radio. Furthermore, their radio had
also been telling the listeners that Radha, consort of Shri Krishna
was from the Lohit division of NEFA, they had realised, though
belatedly, as to wherein lay the source of inspiration to face foreign
invasion.
...................cont.

rkumar
November 15th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Prithiviraj Chauhan made forgiveness the cornerstone of his foreign
policy towards the foreign invader. The invader launched 18 invasions
on India; 17 times, he was defeated, captured but pardoned and let
free every time. On the 18th invasion, Prithviraj lost and he was
never pardoned. Had Prithviraj at the time of second invasion used
dand ensuring the elimination of the enemy once and for all, the
course of Indian history would have been altogether different.
(http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=86&page=31)

Great kingdoms flourished before Buddhist influence. They crumbled
once Buddhist teachings of non-violence were imbibed. Central Asia was
completely Buddhist. No kingdom survived even one generation when the
muslim invasions started. Even Zoroastrian Persia was subjugated
within 16 years. But Hindu India still survives.

Perhaps Brahamans wanted to preserve their hegemony when they exhorted
people to keep away from Buddhists. Perhaps they realized that society
wont survive once martial spirit is discarded. History has only
vindicated their stand.

Still Brahamans cant be called as the 'noble' ones. You may say they
are the scum of Indian society. If casteism is the benchmark, can you
and I say we (Jats) are not ?


2 RAJPUT – JAT SIMILARITIES AND DIFFERENCES

First of all the theory of creation of the Rajputs is incorrect. They
are from the same stock as Jats, no doubt. The emergence of the
Rajputs was to save India from Islamic zealots, much like Guru Nanak
started the Khalsa. At the time of Muslim attacks in India, the
country was divided into many small kingships. In-fighting was the
norm. The muslim rule brought about inhuman conditions. After
converting to Islam, Arabs forgot what was good in their
multi-cultural society. Now they had no principles, no morals, no
shame and no mercy. This was a new kind of war. Not known to mankind,
certainly not to the Indian civillisation. Wherever muslims went, they
destroyed, plundered, looted, burnt, raped, took slaves and
established large harems. Very proudly they maintained written record
of their exploits. One just has to go through Arabic, Persian and Urdu
records.

That is why Islam generates such a feeling of disgust and revulsion
among common Indians. An appropriate example could be the story about
the birth village of Kakraula near Palam, Delhi. It is a typical
example of muslim tyranny, 'kaminapan' would be more apt. That's why
the word "Mlechchha' came into being.

It fell upon the Brahamans to find ways to fight for survival. That's
when kshatriyata was re-emphasised. Those people who opted to fight
were 'purified' as Rajputs. It is another matter that, as is human,
they themselves became corrupt. As did the rest of the Jats.

The practice of Sati and killing of girl child are today social evils.
But they had to find ways to maintain their honour. Not falling in the
hands of 'mlachchhas' was the only option. After the first victory,
when the followers of Prophet Mohammed brought abducted women, they
asked him about what to do. Prophet Mohammed told them to adopt the
women as wives but put two conditions – not more than four each and no
woman whose husband was alive should be taken as wife. Thereafter,
they made sure that wherever they won, all the surrendering men were
killed. The Great Akbar did not spare even one of the 30000 soldiers
that surrendered when Rana Sanga was defeated. Not just that, as soon
as any Arab would die, there used to be mad scramble to usurp his
widowed wives. Prophet Mohammed had to come up with a special Quoranic
injunction to prevent same fate falling onto his many wives.

There is a saying – Yatha raja, thahta praja. These rajas stayed far
too long in India. Their characteristics had to percolate down to the
common people. More so, because, as time went, more and more people
were being converted to Islam either by oppression or threat or
allurement or deception.
(India In Danger: The Offensive of Islam)
http://bojilkolarov.voiceofdharma.com/offensive.html


May be Indians would have overcome the scourge of Islam. But the
Britishers appeared at the wrong time. Hinduism was on the rise when
Britishers came. Bahadur Shah Jafar was for namesake. Converted
muslims had been gradually absorbed into Hindu culture. At least at
the level of common people, if not the mullas, Hindu religious
practices were as much respected as the muslim ones. There were no
communal riots till the Britishers sowed seeds of hatred. Whatever
muslims could not accomplish, was furthered by the British with full
zest.

The details are not important. Suffice to say the the degeneration of
the varna system into caste system started downfall of the society.
The class system became incomprehensible for the high classes. The
degeneration of the caste system started in two main areas:
1. In losing the sense for human brotherhood, and the solidarity
between people, and
2. Indirectly, in the degradation of the religion, which stopped to be
comprehensible for a larger part of the population. The two negative
consequences were a result of the conceitedness of the high classes.
The blame is, of course, with the higher classes, mostly with the
Brahmins. The Brahmins, taking advantage of the trust given to them by
the legislators, at a certain moment forgot that they were only
bearers of high social functions, and decided they were some
God-chosen race, standing far too higher than the rest people. With
the time, this conceitedness and arrogance turned into disgust and
even revulsion at the representatives of the lower castes. As Tagore
says, looking only upward to the sky, they forgot their brothers here
on the earth.

The next sin of the priests was that they restricted absolutely
illegally the access of the population to the Sacred Books. Even the
code " The Laws of Manu" is rather reactionary.** It is hardly created
by Manu himself, most probably his creators have showed much
imagination. We can read the following about the obligations of the
four varnas: " In order to preserve this whole universe, he the Most
Holy, for those born from the mouth, hands, thighs and feet,
determined the following activities. Education, study ( of the Vedas),
offering for themselves and offering for the other, giving and
receiving (alms) he determined for the Brahmans. Protection of the
subjects, giving (alms), sacrifice, studying (of the Vedas) and
non-attachment to the world solace he determined for the Kshatrias.
Grazing the cattle, and also giving (alms), sacrifice, studying ( of
the Vedas), trade, crafts and agriculture – for the Vaishyas. But only
one activity determined for the ruler of the Shudra - to serve these
Varnas with humiliation."
Since the masses continued to sink into ignorance, as a result of the
unwillingness of the priests to help them, they soon began to create
new Mighty Gods. Unknowingly, Vishnu, who is the Vedas is only a
second-class personage, and in the early Upanishadas is barely
mentioned, was created by the people into a first-class God (and not
the only God). Thus for a second time the religion faced the danger of
polytheism. Now, in order to save Hinduism, Shri Krishna himself had
to officially " acknowledge" the new name, to transform Vishnu is the
only and absolute God, who took the place of Brahma. The appearance of
Adi Shankara, Buddh, Mahavir, Guru Nanak, Vivekanand, Dayanand etc has
only helped in slowing the process of degeneration.
For it to be reversed, a critical mass of right thinking people with
selfless attitude is required. Unfortunately, there are far too many
fifth columanists in the society. We ourselves want to maintain
individual caste and regional identities. Then there are the Semites,
who derive inspiration from abroad and weaken their own motherland in
the fond illusion of establishing Shariat or Kingdom of God. They
forget the extreme humiliations and torture their fore-father would
have suffered at the hands of the Arabs and missionaries. Then there
are the ostriches, refusing to see the writing on the wall. May be
they are foolish, may be they are paid servants, may be they are
cutting their own roots out of sincere conviction.
Early on it was the muslim theologians who tried to give separate
identity to the Indian muslims. Fortunately most of them went to
Pakistan at the time of partition. Otherwise, what is happening there
would have been taking place in India. But the respite is purely
temporary. Then there are the Christian converts who like to parrot
that Tamils, Mallus, Trbials, Goans, Nagas, Manipuris, Arunachalis,
Assamese etc are different than Indians. Now here you are advocating
that the Jats areScythians NOT HINDU. On top of that you say Scythians
were not as civilized as ancient Indians. But they went on to
establish thriving empires It is similar to the paradox that the
infamous Aryan Invasion Theory fails to answer – An advanced Indus
valley civillisation had no written knowledge, whereas the uncouth
barbarians and imaginary Aryan tribes wrote the most comprehensive
books of knowledge that mankind has produced so far !
COULD YOU CLARIFY WHO YOU THINK ARE HINDUS AND WHO ARE ORIGINAL INDIANS ?

Sampuran Singh

.................................................. .............................................

profpkpeshin
November 15th, 2005, 05:24 PM
1. The concept of Castes and Gotra is a Brahmanical system of deciding ones social status so that all rites including marriage as per the Manu Smrati can be conducted. Manu Smrati divides the Hindu society into four varnas; Brahman, Khatriya, Vaishya and Shoodra. The other non-Hindus were not included into this division. In the same Varnas there are many Castes and in the same Caste there are many Gotras. The word ‘Gotra’ is a Sanskrit word which means ‘ the place to keep cows’ (Gao- cow+ atra-place or shed). The Vedic Aryans were basically cow herders. They settled down in the vast land of Bharata in pockets after clearing Jungles. There were large distances between these settlements. Population was sparse. It was not the India of today. River Saraswati was flowing in Haryana. Each settlement had commonplace to keep cows and in rotation some people from the settlement were detailed to take cows for grazing (as the practice is now even prevalent in the villages of Rajasthan). Cow grazing was the biggest socializing opportunity and event to share the honor of a particular gotra (cow was and is the most respected animal by the Brahmans). Therefore from the place of the cows the Vedic Aryans derived their name of gotra. As the distances between these settlements were large Sa-gotra marriage (marrying into same gotra) was a common practice ( as was prevalent in the Pharaohs of Egypt). With the increase of population density and many more settlements, many gotras came within the interacting distances and the marriages among the same Gotra was prohibited. There were Varnas as per the profession of a person, which could change but the castes were not yet created.
2. Then came the migration of Indo Scithians. As per Sri-mad Bhagawat Puran, after the battle of Mahabharat the Arjuna is send by Yudhistir to Dwarka to find out the well being of Kishna. He comes back after seven months to inform Yudhitir about the collapse of Jadu Vansha because of fighting within themselves and disappearance of Lord Krishna. He also tells about of his defeat in the hands of some animal grazers and his inability to reach Dwarka.. Yudhistir also expresses his anxiety by sating certain ill omens. It is then that Pandwas migrate to Himalayas. Sri-mad Bhagwat Puran also mentions the presence of some irreligious people and the story of punishment of them in hands of Raja Parikchit, the grand son of Arjun. After Raja Parikchit the Padu Vansh lost power. Who defeated them?
3. It is a known fact that Sakas (one of the earliest branch of Indo Schithain Aryans) invaded Indian Sub continent from a place called Jatie in Persia ( may be the Sakas were also called Jats because of their place of origin in persia. But there is no evidence to support this) through Baluchistan- Sindh- Sourashtra (Gujrat) – Malwa (MP)- Mathura (North India). The route taken by them and the sequence of collapse of Jadu and Pandu vanshas establishes the fact that the so-called irreligious people in Bhagavat Puran were the Sakas. They first invaded Jadus in Dwarka and conquered Gujrat, Northern Maharashtra- Malwa (MP) and Mathura before defeating much stronger Pandus in North India. In the entire history of India, only Sakas took this route for conquering India.

....see next post

17 Aug 02 Ashok
Great Job Done Ch. Ashok Verma,
Here in Hisar, many well qualified Jats are not aware of their origin. Some time I have to intervene and clear misconceptions. From Folklores and most celebrated traditional festival (Holi) supports your documentation of link between Jats and Yadavs.
Most of the folklores are resticted to mixed farming. That is, rearing animals and agriculture. Even at present, most, rather all traditional Jats are vegetarians, that supports your link as herdsmen.
What made your documentation more intresting for me was anti-brahaminal attitude. Although, I have read it for the first time in your documents, but I can see it in every Jat. There must be more reasons for it. Universal adoption of Aryan Hindu philisophy and relinquishing Sanatan Dharm Hindu philosophy, is a clear cut indication of Jat community's hatered for Brahaminical dominance of yore. Whereas brahamins of Haryana, Raj and Western UP still follow Sanatan Dharm Hindu philosophy.
Thanks, Cho Sahib for your illuminating contribution.
Prof PK Peshin
pkpeshin@hotmail.com

arunshamli
November 15th, 2005, 09:36 PM
Sampuran Singh Ji Namaskar,

Very interesting information you have posted. I do not have much knowledge about the origins of the jats which is the topic of this thread, but this thread is much more than what its topic suggests, it is about trying to find the most correct information. So I also thought of writing something.

In your post there is a mention of Sati pratha and one incident from Mahabharata (Dronacharya and Eklavaya).

Sati Partha:
Based on what I have read the first incident of sati occurred during Mahabharata. When Pandu died, his wife Madri also finished herself after his death. Before that there is no mention of Sati in Indian history. According to Swamy Dayanand Saraswati Madri is the first known Sati. Sati pratha might have been practiced more during the Muslim rule but it was started long before that.

Mahaharat:
We can not go back in to the history, so we have to rely on the history books and try to find the answers. Unfortunately different people have interpreted them according to their own ease, so it becomes very difficult to find what the truth is?

Before proceeding further, I am making an assumption here. Let us assume that Mahabharata war was really fought and that everything in Mahabharata epic is TRUE.

The kind of vidya Dronacharya and Parshuram were giving can be compared to today’s nuclear weapons technology. So is it okay to give that kind of technology to everyone? Pakistan has got access to the nuclear technology and the whole world (or at least India) has lost its sleep. America has nuclear weapon but they are not a threat to the humanity and to this world. But if terrorist gets that kind of power, one can only imagine what would happen? Similarly, India has nuclear weapons but they are no threat to the world. Now let us come back to Mahabhart, Dronacharya did not teach shastra vidya to Eklavya and Karana. But it is not because of their not being khsatriya or Brahaman. He believed that this vidya should only be given to supatra (A Well-deserving person) and he thought Karan wanted to learn shastra vidaya only to kill Arjuna and that is why he refused to admit him to his gurukul. Same is the case of Eklavaya. And he was not all wrong; they both (Karan and Eklavya) were against the Pandawa in the war.

Even today every institution has its own admission process and they all conduct different kind of exams and interview before the admission. Dronacharya and Parshuram had their own gurukul and they might have also had some kind of screening and those who failed were not admitted to their school. So what is wrong in that? Should IIT's start admitting candidates without any merits?

At some point (unknown to me) in the history a particular group of people were considered as lowly people and they were denied access to almost everything. And to prove it right some influential people started quoting the example from History. and this is one such example that in Mahabhart Dronacharya also did not teach a shudra so they (shudra) should not be allowed to have access to any kind of education.

Probably Dronacharya was not like what we are being told today.

This is how I see it.

rkumar
November 15th, 2005, 10:07 PM
Very good observations Arun.

RK^2

sampuran
November 16th, 2005, 12:37 AM
Arun Kumarji,
Thanks a lot for the clarification. What you said is absolutely true. App bandar ke haath mein talwar nahin de sakte!
It is possible that same principle was interpreted in a different manner as time progressed and caste based restrictions came in.
Well.. what I wrote may show Guru Drona in some light. We should also remember that the same Guru did not hesisate in teaching Drushtdhyumn, who he knew was going to be the reaon for his dealth. That shows some dedication to the 'dharama' of a teacher !


Kalkhandeji
Thanks for doing the needful.

vinodks
November 16th, 2005, 01:22 AM
This is very interesting thread.... A similar discussion about Jat origin is going in India-forum.com where lots of people(more non-Jats) are discussing.. Its clear that common people have lots of mis-conception about history and origin of Jats... I would request member who have knowledge of this subject to participate there becuz it might dispel sterotypical ideas on Jats thrown by people.. and instead of our "preaching to the choir" we might educate others about "our" origin and history... Following 2 thread are relevent..

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1030

http://www.india-forum.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=1051

Vinod

sampuran
November 19th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Sangwan Bhai
Thanks for supplying that link to indiaforum. The thread that side does contain lot of interesting information and arguments. What we need to keep in mind is what somebody that side has said :-

Of late there have been consistent attempts by enemies of Bharat and Hindus, the muslims and christians, to spread canards like Rajputs and Jats having come from outside India. It is similar to the canard propagated by the British (courtsey Max Muller) that there was an Aryan Invasion of India. Unfortunately, some dalit intellectuals, out of their dislike for upper castes, have also got brainwashed and joined this bandwagon. What every Indian has to keep in mind is that these enemies (snakes in the bedding) will stoop to any level to destroy India. It would be foolish to expect them to show morality, like Mohammed Ghauri did not or muslims and christist have never done in any country. We need to keep our guard and call their lies at every forum.

rkumar
November 22nd, 2005, 10:12 PM
I came across the link to an interesting book called Proof of Vedic Culture's Global Existence by Stephen Knapp. I wonder if some one has read this book and can tell us more about what author has written.

http://www.stephen-knapp.com/proof_of_vedic_culture's_global_existence.htm

Rajendra

sampuran
November 24th, 2005, 03:00 AM
There is plenty of info giving details of how vedic relics and related writings have been discovered all over the world.

Some common ones are

www.salagram.net (http://www.salagram.net)
www.voi.org (http://www.voi.org)
www.atributetohinduism.com (http://www.atributetohinduism.com)

Below is just a glimpse of Vedic culture in Pre-islamic Arabia. Ref -
http://p081.ezboard.com/fhinduunityarchivessectionhinduunitycom.showMessag e?topicID=112.topicfficeffice"

Islam came into being about 1372 years ago. It is well known that over 7500 years ago, at the time of the Mahabharat War, Kurus ruled the world. The scions of that family administered the different regions. Prophet Muhammed himself and his family were adherents of Vedic culture. The Encyclopedia Islamia admits as much when it says: "Muhammed's grandfather and uncles were hereditary priests of the Kaba temple which housed 360 idols!"

According to Arab traditions, Muhammad is a title. We do not know what name his parents had given him. We do however know that the central object of worship which survives at the Kaba today is a Shivling. That was allowed to remain there because that was the faceless family deity of Muhammad's family. One of the original names of Lord Shiv is Mahadev (The Great God) therefore it is entirely possible Muhammad came from Mahadev. This appears fairly certain because the Arabs still have a Mahadevi sect. Moreover the title Mehdi of a Muslim chief is also a malpronounciation of the term Mahadeva. According to Sanskrit etymology the term Muhammad implies 'a person of great inspiration' - 'Mahan Madah yasya assau Muhammadah' In a hostile sense it also implies 'a person of a proud and haughty temperament'.

The Qurayshi tribe into which Mohammed was born was particularly devoted to Allah and and the three children of the Moon God. Therefore when Muhammad decided to create his own Divine religion, he took innumerable aspects of the daily Vedic culture that surrounded him and corrupted them to suit his needs. It was with the advent of the Prophet and Islam that the death-knell of the glorious Arab culture was sounded. With Islam came the flood of destruction, murder, plunder and crime that destroyed the great Vedic heritage of Arabs. The Prophet merely took some existing artefacts and terms and corrupted them so profoundly that no one would be able to discover their actual origins.

In my next article, I will elaborate further on the Vedic Heritage of Arabia.

Note: Works of P.N. Oak and Robert A. Morey have been used to compose this article/Vedic Past of Pre-Islamic Arabia</ST1:place> - Part 2

In 570 AD, the year of Muhammad's birth, <ST1:place>Arabia</ST1:place> was a thriving, rich and varied Vedic culture. Although monotheism in the forms of Christianity and Judaism were known to the people of Arvasthan, they were undeterred in their uncompromising faith to the religion of their ancestors: Hinduism . Every household had an idol of a Hindu god or goddess. There were hundreds of sacred groves, places of pilgrimage, and temples which were sanctuaries containing images of the entire range of Vedic gods. The temples in addition to being the religious focus of the Arabs, were also the cultural centres of learning. It was the temples that were the venues of literary and poetry competitions, of glorious festivals.

The virtues most highly prized by people of Arvasthan were bravery in battle, patience in misfortune, loyalty to one's tribe, and generosity to the needy and the poor. They proudly upheld the value of tolerance in matters of religious practice and belief. The respect they showed towards other people's religions was fully in keeping with their Vedic spiritual tradition.

The status of women was that of pride and equal respect. How could it be otherwise with a people whose chief deity was the goddess Durga (Alla). Women married men of their choice and were financially independent. They were entrepeneurs, artisans, poets and even warriors! Later on Muhammad would marry Khadija, who was not only a wealthy merchant but also in the position to choose her own husband. This clearly demonstrates the level of freedom women enjoyed in Vedic Arabia. Hind, who was the wife of Muhammad's chief enemy Abu Sufyan, herself participated in the battlefield.

Hind opposed Muhammad tooth and nail. She followed her husband to the battlefield and when Abu Sufyan surrendered lace>Mecca</ST1:place> to Muhammad without a fight she caught hold of him in the marketplace and cried:

"KILL this fat greasy bladder of lard! What a rotten protector of the people"

When Muhammad tried to baptise her & asked her not to commit adultery , She spat out the bitter words:

"A free woman does not commit adultery!"

How proud this woman was of the rights and privileges that her Vedic society had invested to her!

It was Islam that extinguished the light of knowledge in Vedic Arabia. It is ironic that the man who brought about such darkness himself belonged to the Qurayshi Tribe of lace>Mecca</ST1:place>. The Qurayshi were particularly devoted to Allah (Durga) and the famous Shivling of the <ST1:place><?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:place>. The fact that the Shivling remains to this day in the Kaaba is solely due to the fact that it happened to be the Qurayshi tribe's faceless Family Deity. As I mentioned before Muhammad's name itself came from Mahadeva, which is another cognate for Lord Shiva. Muhammad's own uncle, Umar-Bin-E-Hassham was a staunch Hindu and fervent devotee of Lord Shiva. He was a renowned poet and wrote many verses in praise of Shiva. One of these has survived on page 235 of Sair-Ul-Okul and reads as follows:


Kafavomal fikra min ulumin Tab asayru
Kaluwan amataul Hawa was Tajakhru
We Tajakhayroba udan Kalalwade-E Liboawa
Walukayanay jatally, hay Yauma Tab asayru
Wa Abalolha ajabu armeeman MAHADEVA
Manojail ilamuddin minhum wa sayattaru
Wa Sahabi Kay-yam feema-Kamil MINDAY Yauman
Wa Yakulum no latabahan foeennak Tawjjaru
Massayaray akhalakan hasanan Kullahum
Najumum aja- at Summa gabul HINDU

which translates as:
The man who may spend his life in sin
and irreligion or waste it in lechery and wrath
If at least he relent and return to
righteousness can he be saved?
If but once he worship Mahadeva with a pure
heart, he will attain the ultimate in spirituality.
Oh Lord Shiva exchange my entire life for but
a day's sojourn in <st1:country-region><ST1:place>India</ST1:place></st1:country-region> where one attains salvation.
But one pilgrimage there secures for one all
merit and company of the truly great.

Muhammad's uncle was one of the resident priests of the Shiv temple known as "Kaaba". This sacred sanctum was decorated in an extremely rich and beautiful fashion. The Kaaba was astronomically oriented to face the winds. The minor axis of the rectangular base of the Kaaba was solistically aligned towards summer sunrise and winter sunset. It contained 360 statues of Vedic deities and was a shrine primarily associated with sun worship. The temple was an architectural representation of an interlocking set of theories covering virtually all creation and comprehending chemistry, physics, cosmology, meteorology and medicine. Each wall or corner of the Kaaba was associated with a specific region of the world. Thus this glorious Hindu temple was made to symbolically represent a microcosm of the universe. The Arabs would face east when praying. This representation of a microcosm demonstrated by the eight directional structure was derived from the Tantric pattern (Refer to Figure 1) of Hinduism. Right at the centre of the Kaaba was the octogonal pedestal of Bramha the creator. Today this very pedestal is called Maqam-E-Ibrahim by the Muslims.

sampuran
November 24th, 2005, 03:02 AM
However, more significant was the fact that the Kaaba was an extremely rich and ornate temple. On its walls hung innumerable gold plaques commemorating the winners of the annual poetry competition known as the Okaj fair. There were gold, silver and precious gems everywhere. It is no wonder that Muhammad armed with his facade of a new brand of religion set out to capture the immense wealth of the Vedic shrine of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:pl</st1:City>. After plundering the riches of the Kaaba, the wealth enabled him to systematically destroy all traces of the religion that threatened him so directly. It is an indisputable fact that money will make any low criminal devoutly religious in a hurry.

Despite the fact that Muhammad had to destroy all traces of Hinduism in order to make his "new religion" work, he knew that in order to fool people convincingly he would have to borrow from the Vedic culture that surrounded him. Being illiterate he picked out rituals and symbols that he didn't understand and distorted and falsified them for his own ends. Here is a list of these distortions:

Muhammad destroyed all 360 idols, but even he could not summon the courage to completely obliterate the Shivling in the Kaaba. He entered the temple and kissed the black stone. The Shivling was so sacred that the man who so detested idol- worship ended up kissing the largest idol in the Kaaba. Later his followers in a fit of piety broke the Shivling and then out of remorse repatched it together again. Today it lies broken at seven places and held together by a silver band studded with silver nails, bearing the name "Sangey Aswad" which came from the Sanskrit Ashwet meaning non-white or black stone.

He jumbled up the Sanskrit words Nama and Yaja (which meant "bowing and worshipping" respectively) into a combination word Namaz and used that to describe his prescribed method of prayer.

Because the Vedic custom was to pray facing the East, in his hatred for all things Hindu, he directed his followers to pray facing only the west.

The method of circling around a shrine seven times in a clockwise direction is an ancient Vedic custom. Muhammad with his lack of originality decided that the 7 ritual perambulations should be retained but again in his hatred of all things Vedic decided the direction of the perambulations should be anti-clockwise.

With his phobia of all things Vedic, Muhammad knew that the greatest reminder and threat to his forced brand of religion were the beautiful Vedic idols of Arabic temples. Thus he destroyed every idol he could find and made idol worship the greatest crime for a Muslim. Such a man could never have comprehended how an abstract concept can be conveyed through a symbolic representation in the form of an image. Thus he made all image representation a sin as well.

Vedic religion is known for its ancient oral tradition. It is well known that the Vedic culture emphasized oral debate and expression far more than the written word. In adition the oral recitation of Vedic scriptures was always done in a lyrical fashion, utilizing music and thus reaching a height of expression. In fear of this musical tradition Muhammad decided to forbid Music.

All Arabic copies of the Koran have the mysterious figure 786 imprinted on them . No Arabic scholar has been able to determine the choice of this particular number as divine. It is an established fact that Muhammad was illiterate therefore it is obvious that he would not be able to differentiate numbers from letters. This "magical" number is none other than the Vedic holy letter "<ST1:place>OM</ST1:place>" written in Sanskrit (Refer to figure 2). Anyone who knows Sanskrit can try reading the symbol for "<ST1:place>OM</ST1:place>" backwards in the Arabic way and magically the numbers 786 will appear! Muslims in their ignorance simply do not realise that this special number is nothing more than the holiest of Vedic symbols misread.

Figure 2.
Read from right to left this figure
of OM represents the numbers 786

There are many such instances where the symbols and rituals of Vedic culture were completely distorted and falsified by Muhammad in his bid to "create" his brand new religion. However in his haste to deceive and because of his ignorance and illiteracy, thousands of Vedic symbols still remain. Although they have been distorted beyond imagination, they still remain as solemn reminders of Arabia's glorious Vedic past. They can never be supressed.

In fact the rise of Islam put a full stop to all the previous knowledge of <ST1:pArabia</ST1:p. The imperialistic message of Islam diverted all energies into raiding, looting and destruction. The incentive to learn and preserve the Vedic wisdom that had thrived in <ST1:pArabia for so many centuries, was wiped out by the brutal pressure of Islam. Making easy money through loot and massacre was far more appealing than upholding the tenets of ancient knowledge. Gone were the schools, teachers, libraries, poets, artists, philosophers and scholars that had littered the Vedic landscape of Arabia like stars. Everyone had to become a raider if not from choice then for the sake of surviving the absolute intolerance of dissenters, that Islam preached. Thus was the light of learning extinguished in Arabia</ST1:p. All that remained was the Koran, the Kalma and the murderous hatred of anything Non-Muslim.

arunshamli
November 24th, 2005, 04:09 AM
Dear Sampuran Singh ji,

Although I agree with you on many points , however this time with a few differences.

1. Mahabharata war was fought around 5300 years ago and not 7500 years as you have said.
2. You mean Hindu temple and not Vedic temple, because even today none of the Vedic temple have any idols. And there is no mention of Idol worship in any of the Vedas.

I do not buy the idea how the word Namaz was originated and I do not think any Muslim will also believe it. It is their thing and they would know it better. The only thing I know about them is that most of them are terrorists.

rkumar
November 24th, 2005, 08:49 PM
To find more about Jats and their history, it might be worth reading the history of Elam empire. Jats dominated the enite west Asia all along. Even today there is a town called Jatt ( Jat) in present day Israel;

http://www.fallingrain.com/world/IS/3/Jatt.html

Dahias and Tomars in Israel and then this Jatt town, all can not be linguistic coincidence. Post Mahabharat, Lots of Jats moved over to west Asia and established empires. Elmites opposed Judism, Christianity and Islam all. There are references in Bible and the Holi scriptures of Jews against Elamites. Elmites had names like Abiramu, Nasir pal and Bani Pal which are very much like our present day names. After the fall of Elam empire, many of these jats moved over to Eastern Europe. They followed the routes adjoining sea and then moved towards deeper lands.

Rajendra

sampuran
November 25th, 2005, 01:50 AM
Arun Bhai Ram Ram.

There are gross differences amongst scholrs about the exaxt date of Mahabharat war. (i am not talking about the marxists or the anti-India weterners)

The word Hindu pertains to Geography, a corruption of Sindhu. In those days the religion was not called Hinduism. This annotation is fairly recent.



Who is bothered about whether Muslims believe something or not ? Obviously they wont at first instant. Pope wanted Galelio killed when the later said that the earth was round. Anyway, when a person is converted to Islam, first thing he is told to do is to forget his 'kafir' past. In fact, to hate it.
Read the following article for better understanding :-
http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_051120.htm

rkumar
November 25th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Let me take members back to the time when India was not part of mainland Asia and was an Island called Jambu Dweep. There was civilisation on this Island even during that period. There was not even Mount Everest at that time. Name of India is Jambu Dweep in all our Vedic and Puranic literature. Continental drift brought Jambu dweep near mainland Asia and created Mount Everest. This should give an idea to all of you about the age of Indian civilisation. We are not few thousand years old civilisation. We are rather millions of years old civilisation. Mount Meru (called Sumeru by Buddhists) was towards the northern part of Jambu dweep and has now disappeared into the Tibetan plateau. Names of later on civilisations like those of Sumeria were derived from the name of Mount Sumeru.. Reference to Jambu Dweep is in every India religion;

1. http://www.jainworld.com/education/veetrag2/lesson05.htm
2. http://www.gyanbooks.com/details.asp?id=102
3. http://www.answering-christianity.com/hindu_scripture.htm


India (Jambu Dweep) was the real crucible of civilisation and it’s from there that most of world civilisation originated. All religions on the Earth originated from India or from the people of Indian origin. Interestingly, Jats opposed every religion other than Vedic. There are references in both Bible and Holy book of Jews that Elamites ( Kadian Jats and others) need to be annihilated.

Rajendra

arunshamli
November 26th, 2005, 12:42 AM
Sampuran Singh Ji Namskar,

I agree , it is not possible to find the exact date.

according to one calculation (by Swamy Dayanand Saraswati) Mahabharat is almost 5300 years old. the current kaliyuga is almost 5100 years old and Mahabharat was fought towards the end of dwapar yuga. I think 2 or 3 generations of pandava rulled after the Mahabhart war and before the start of current kaliyuga. So we can assume the war was fought 100-150 years before the kaliyuga. and this adds up to 5300 years.

ofcourse others might have calculated the time according to some other formula. If you know some, please do let me know. or you can email me at arun_shamli@yahoo.com.

Thanks
Arun


Arun Bhai Ram Ram.
There are gross differences amongst scholrs about the exaxt date of Mahabharat war. (i am not talking about the marxists or the anti-India weterners)

The word Hindu pertains to Geography, a corruption of Sindhu. In those days the religion was not called Hinduism. This annotation is fairly recent.


Who is bothered about whether Muslims believe something or not ? Obviously they wont at first instant. Pope wanted Galelio killed when the later said that the earth was round. Anyway, when a person is converted to Islam, first thing he is told to do is to forget his 'kafir' past. In fact, to hate it.
Read the following article for better understanding :-
http://www.indiacause.com/columns/OL_051120.htm

rkumar
November 27th, 2005, 12:01 AM
Further to my earlier posts on the subject, here is more on the Jatt village in Israel;

http://www.palestinemonitor.org/Special%20Section/Closure/one_mans_fence.htm

if you scan through this link, you will come across the following lines;

"You won't find a single person here who will dare take to the street," admitted Watad, the proprietor of a restaurant from Jatt. "People are afraid that the Border Police will kill them. We saw how they killed the 13 fellows in October. Rami Ghara of Jatt was also killed in those riots. The truth is that we are afraid. We know that this fence is a kind of occupation, because they have confiscated nearly 50,000 dunams from the Palestinian villages, and no one has protested. Our entire lives have changed because you people are prepared to do anything in the name of security."

The name Rami Ghara sounds like typical Jat name. I read in some other link that this village is about 6000 years old like Jeruslam.

Rajendra

vinodks
November 28th, 2005, 12:34 PM
RKji,
Jat references in Elamites are really interesting. There might have been migrations from India to middle-east and mediterranean regions...

However, Jambu dweep mythology about Indian culture being so ancient(miliion years) is totally non-sense. All human being were originated in Africa and first man came out only very recently 60,000 years back. The field of genetic evidences is contemporary and lots of works are coming up these days (where they take mitochondiral DNA and Y-chromosome of populations and sketch out journey of mankind). Man entered India first time 55,000 years back and kept journey on(without stopping) to reach Australia along coastal lines. Second wave came 35,000 years back through Hindu-kush and settled. This was almost end of the last ice-age, i.e. much much later than time when India was a island with sea at Himalaya's place. There are some proofs(bones etc) of hominoid homo-erectus(200,000years back) living in south-east asia but they became extinct and all humans came from Africa.
(Source:- I just finished "The Journey of Man" by Spencer Wells who was postdoc in Poonam's dept. in Stanford few years back:) , it talks about human migrations all over the world based on extensive genetic research; will share other details later)

There are lots of details but Hindu mythology shouldn't be taken word-by-word to explain anthropological history(particulay of time when script wasn't well developed, i.e. 4000BC maximum limit).

-Vinod


Let me take members back to the time when India was not part of mainland Asia and was an Island called Jambu Dweep. There was civilisation on this Island even during that period. There was not even Mount Everest at that time. Name of India is Jambu Dweep in all our Vedic and Puranic literature. Continental drift brought Jambu dweep near mainland Asia and created Mount Everest. This should give an idea to all of you about the age of Indian civilisation. We are not few thousand years old civilisation. We are rather millions of years old civilisation. Mount Meru (called Sumeru by Buddhists) was towards the northern part of Jambu dweep and has now disappeared into the Tibetan plateau. Names of later on civilisations like those of Sumeria were derived from the name of Mount Sumeru.. Reference to Jambu Dweep is in every India religion;

1. http://www.jainworld.com/education/veetrag2/lesson05.htm
2. http://www.gyanbooks.com/details.asp?id=102
3. http://www.answering-christianity.com/hindu_scripture.htm


India (Jambu Dweep) was the real crucible of civilisation and it’s from there that most of world civilisation originated. All religions on the Earth originated from India or from the people of Indian origin. Interestingly, Jats opposed every religion other than Vedic. There are references in both Bible and Holy book of Jews that Elamites ( Kadian Jats and others) need to be annihilated.

Rajendra

rkumar
November 28th, 2005, 01:39 PM
.....However, Jambu dweep mythology about India being so ancient is totally non-sense. ...

Most nonsense word in science is to follow something as final word. You are talking as if these migration of man from Africa is the final word and there is nothing further to human history. Hope you know something about continetal drift and how India , Australia and Africa were one land mas once upon a time. How can one be sure that man migrated only from Africa and not via other broken portions of Australia and India ? Try to stretch your mind beyond written stuff as thats not the final word in science. If continetal drift is scientifical accepted fact, Jambu dweep is also an accepted fact.

RK^2

vinodks
November 28th, 2005, 08:51 PM
RKji, aap to naraz ho gaye....
Actually, in this case it's almost beyond doubt that all humans came from Africa because every single human has certain marker (M168) in their Y-chromosome which tells a common origin. Secondly, the age of that Adam from which all people came is 60,000 year which is calculated by number of newer markers times the time in which a newer marker gets introduced (by random shuffling).

Even if we go by older theory that human originated independently, like Neaderthal in Europe, Homo-erectus in south-asia and then Homo-sapiens.. beginning of civilization is just too late than time when there was sea at Himalaya....

60,000 years back sea level was 100m below than what its today(because of ice age) and costal path from East Africa to South Arabia to India to Malasia to Indonasia to Java to Sumatra to New Guinea to Australia was mostly land except streches less than 100km which can be easily crossed by wooden logs... This is nothing; around 10,000 years back people went to Hawai which is more than 3000km away from nearest land.... Sandy open coasts are easiest way for expansion becuz it provides constant food from sea and there are no barriers likes mountains, forest or deserts.... sandy coasts were ancient super-highway:-))...

Jambu dweep story
"According to the most accepted geological theories, India once belonged to an Island continent called Gondwanaland and was separated from the Eurasian continent by the primordial Tethyan ocean. One billion years ago, the Aravallis, whose eroded remnants are visible around Delhi, formed a chain higher than the Himalayas today. Over millions of years these mountains suffered the forces of erosion and their sediments were deposited in the Tethyan ocean. Then 140 million years ago, India began it's northward movement, on a collision course with the Eurasian continent.

The point where the two continents were joined is known, appropriately, as the Indus- Yarlung Suture zone, marked by the courses of these two greatest rivers of the Kailash. After 60 million years, the Indian and Asian plates became closely welded along this suture zone. The northward movement of India continued but at a slower rate - 2-3 centimeters per year." from http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/5112/bio.html

So Jambu Dweep joined Asia 60 millions years back and its widely accpeted that first primate, like Chimpanzee, appeared on earth only 23 million years back. Cousins of Chimpanzee, other hominid were around 200,000-1.2 million years back and these species DIDN'T evolve in humans. It was another cousin of chimpanzee in south-east Africa which are our ancesters and ultimately they were forced to leave Africa due to expansion of Sahara. And this happened only recently. There are lots of proofs why human orginated in Africa not in India or Australia. One of them is genetic diversity. Genetic diversity in one village in Africa is almost equal to whole world combined. (you might think what about varieties like skin color, hair, heights etc. genes responsible for these outward appearances are very adaptive and is very small portion of human genome) If all people in world die except a big village in Sudan, most of genetic diversity is saved. Diversity inside a population is greater than diversity among populations. Why? because older populations has highest diversity, older populations get more time to have more genetic mutations than others.... and its universally accepted that Africa is oldest population.(not a final word, there is never a final word)

Continental drift is much slower process, takes millions years for significant distance while evolution of species (especially primates) is faster process.

Nothing in science is final word, theories keep changing but some basic principles remain same... In this case, there are just too many proofs to prove one thing over the other...

I agree India being an island is real story but there was no human being(not even monkeys) anywhere in world when it happened... Jambu dweep mythology might have been either imagination or reference to some other island..

-Vinod


Most nonsense word in science is to follow something as final word. You are talking as if these migration of man from Africa is the final word and there is nothing further to human history. Hope you know something about continetal drift and how India , Australia and Africa were one land mas once upon a time. How can one be sure that man migrated only from Africa and not via other broken portions of Australia and India ? Try to stretch your mind beyond written stuff as thats not the final word in science. If continetal drift is scientifical accepted fact, Jambu dweep is also an accepted fact.

RK^2

vinodks
November 28th, 2005, 08:51 PM
-----------------------------------

sampuran
November 29th, 2005, 01:50 AM
An interesting (but far fetched) link to human history is given below. I have just pasted the initial part. More can be read from the website :

http://www.salagram.net/VWH-x-cultures.html

CROSS-CULTURAL TRACES OF VEDIC CIVILIZATION ...

by Sadaputa das (Dr Richard L. Thompson)

1991 The Bhaktivedanta Book Trust. Used by permission.
The ancient Greek writer Aratos tells the following story about the constellation Virgo, or the virgin. Virgo, he says, may have belonged to the star race, the forefathers of the ancient stars. In primeval times, in the golden age, she lived among mankind as Justice personified and would exhort people to adhere to the truth. At this time people lived peacefully, without hypocrisy or quarrel. Later, in the age of silver, she hid herself in the mountains, but occasionally she came down to berate people for their evil ways. Finally the age of bronze came. People invented the sword, and "they tasted the meat of cows, the first who did it." At this point Virgo "flew away to the sphere"; that is, she departed for the celestial realm.[1]
The Vedic literature of India gives an elaborate description of the universe as a cosmos -- a harmonious, ordered system created according to an intelligent plan as a habitation for living beings. The modern view of the universe is so different from the Vedic view that the latter is presently difficult to comprehend. In ancient times, however, cosmogonies similar to the Vedic system were widespread among people all over the world. Educated people of today tend to immediately dismiss these systems of thought as mythology, pointing to their diversity and their strange ideas as proof that they are all simply products of the imagination.
If we do this, however, we may be overlooking important information that could shed light on the vast forgotten period that precedes the brief span of recorded human history. There is certainly much evidence of independent storytelling in the traditions of various cultures, but there are also many common themes. Some of these themes are found in highly developed form in the Vedic literature. Their presence in cultures throughout the world is consistent with the idea that in the distant past, Vedic culture exerted worldwide influence.
In this article we will give some examples of Vedic ideas concerning time and human longevity that appear repeatedly in different traditions. First we will examine some of these ideas, and then we will discuss some questions about what they imply and how they should be interpreted.
In the Vedic literature time is regarded as a manifestation of Krsna, the Supreme Being. As such, time is a controlling force that regulates the lives of living beings in accordance with a cosmic plan. This plan involves repeating cycles of creation and destruction of varying durations. The smallest and most important of these repeating cycles consists of four yugas, or ages, called Satya, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali. In these successive ages mankind gradually descends from a high spiritual platform to a degenerated state. Then, with the beginning of a new Satya-yuga, the original state of purity is restored, and the cycle begins again.
The story of Virgo illustrates that in the ancient Mediterranean world there was widespread belief in a similar succession of four ages, known there as the ages of gold, silver, bronze, and iron. In this system humanity also starts out in the first age in an advanced state of consciousness and gradually becomes degraded. Here also, the progressive developments in human society are not simply evolving by physical processes, but are superintended by a higher controlling intelligence.
It is noteworthy that Aratos' story specifies the eating of cows as a sinful act that cut mankind off from direct contact with celestial beings. This detail fits in nicely with the ancient Indian traditions of cow protection, but it is unexpected in the context of Greek or European culture.
One explanation for similarities between ideas found in different cultures is that people everywhere have essentially the same psychological makeup, and so they tend to come up independently with similar notions. However, details such as the point about cow-killing suggest that we are dealing here with common traditions rather than independent inventions.
Another example of similarities between cultures can be found among the natives of North America. The Sioux Indians say that their ancestors were visited by a celestial woman who gave them their system of religion. She pointed out to them that there are four ages, and that there is a sacred buffalo that loses one leg during each age. At present we are in the last age, an age of degradation, and the buffalo has one leg.[2]
This story is a close parallel to the account in the Srimad Bhagavatam of the encounter between Maharaja Pariksit and the bull of Dharma. There, Dharma is said to lose one leg with each successive yuga, leaving it with one leg in the present Age of Kali. According to the Vedic system, the lengths of the Satya, Treta, Dvapara, and Kali yugas are 4, 3, 2, and 1 times an interval of 432,000 years. Within these immense periods of time the human life span decreases from 100,000 years in the Satya-yuga to 10,000 years in the Treta-yuga, 1,000 years in the Dvapara-yuga, and finally 100 years in the Kali-yuga.

anildabas1701
December 1st, 2005, 03:26 PM
namaskar chaudhary ashok sir

well a very wonderful combined and deep knowledge you have about jats.
i am very happy that there are few people who holds so important information about history

but i have got a question for you. in your post on 17th august 2002 you have told that delhi was ruled by a tomar king and this later resulted that tomar are found in western UP and MATHURA. well sir DABAS gotra is found in delhi. was not there DABAS at that time.. well as TOMAR shifted after delhi was attacked by MUSLIM emperors. it means dabas was not there at that time in delhi otherwise they would have been also shifted alog with TOMARS to weastern UP or MATHURA... but sir our villages(DABAS GOTRA) are here from more than 700 years.
how are dabas gotra in delhi now or why does not it shifted along with TOMARS or was not dabas gotra attacked by muslim emperors, thus only tomars were the enmy of muslim emperors?

vinodks
February 7th, 2006, 01:24 AM
What is this non-sense??? My message has been deleted without notifying me! I would request moderators to plz justify this. By chance I happened to come upon this 2 month old thread and found my post missing in thread where I contributed by spending my valuable time.

-vinod


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sampuran
February 8th, 2006, 04:17 PM
Vinod Bhai please post again.

anildabas1701
February 9th, 2006, 06:38 PM
my 2 posts are also missing...............
one again!!! jat nei jo kaam ek baar kardiya tha woh pasand koni aayake

vinodks
February 9th, 2006, 08:37 PM
Sampuranji, I don't really remember what was in post... I am waiting just how long it takes for moderators to see the appeal and respond... They are too eager to execize their dictatorial mouse click, lets see how 'responsible' they are to such matters... forums are of members, by members and for members... sounds funny?... anyway, if forums are made by just making a website each one of us can make one for his own in matter of 2 hrs... but thats not the point, so many worthy members are contributing here with sincerity... anyway lets see.

-Vinod


Vinod Bhai please post again.