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ravichaudhary
November 30th, 2003, 12:11 AM
I have uploaded two files in the files section an extract from R S Joon's work,- History of the Jats , on "Offshoot communities of the Jats."

on Gujars and Ahirs

Of interest to researchers will be the list of clan names that Joon has collated.

History records the great empires established by the Gujars and Abhiras( Ahiras) in India. Later many took the Rajput appellation.

Joon and others consider them to be of the same stock as the Jats.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/files/

Folder : History of the Jats R S Joon
Book on line


Files:
AHIRS1.doc
Ahirs and Jats - ch6 Joon

Gujar( Gujara) R S Joon.txt
Gurjar and Jats- Joon

See also messages :

1102 and 1104

chhoraharyanada
January 2nd, 2004, 05:10 AM
Ram Ram!!

Hello, aren't Ahirs Yadavs?

ravichaudhary
January 2nd, 2004, 07:46 AM
Ramandeep (Jan 01, 2004 06:40 p.m.):
Ram Ram!!

Hello, aren't Ahirs Yadavs?

************
Dear Ramandep

When I post some information , it is without pre conceived notions.

I try, to seprate my opinions and views, from that of the historian.

Here you have Joon's research,

That is a basis to go forward.

What can you ( and others add) ??

Ravi

chhoraharyanada
January 3rd, 2004, 12:14 AM
ohho mere baap, it was a simple question. koi thesis-vesis ki zaroorat nahi thi.
ahirs = yadav.yes or no??

chhoraharyanada
January 3rd, 2004, 12:38 AM
by the way, I have no books on jats or jat history ...

how can I purchase this joon book? is it on amazon?

ravichaudhary
January 3rd, 2004, 08:24 AM
Your interest is welcome.

Ram Swarup's Joon's book is out print, and I do not think there are many copies around. You might with great effort or if you are very lucky find a used copy.

When it came out in 1938, it was along with Thakur Desraj's Book Jat Ithihass , was the Pioneering study of the Jats History.

Far superior in scope and depth to Kunango's history of the Jats,although the latter is more well known.

You can get Desraj's book from the Surajmall Education Society in Delhi or from

D K Publishers, Darya Ganj, search for DKPD.COM

Ignore the US $ pricing. Get a freind to buy it and mail it to you.

Copius extracts from Joon and Desraj have been posted in the Yahoo Jat history group- files section- URL below.

Feel free to visit the site, and to join the group.

Ravi Chaudhary

chhoraharyanada
April 4th, 2004, 06:53 PM
Hi,

Can some one please clear up some confusion for me on this subject.

If Jats and Yadavs used to be one, as this post suggests ...

And the saka races entry into the subcontinent is charted around 1BC to 1AD ... then, could someone explain how Lord Krishna was a Yadav??
Wasnt the Mahabharat and Geeta loooong before 1BC/1AD ..

please somebody clear up this confusion for me!

thank u.

ravichaudhary
April 5th, 2004, 12:36 AM
There is evidence that the Sakas were in India long before 1st century.

The 9th century BCE is also proposed.

Yadhav/ Jats.

Ethnic differences do appear to exist.

Many Ahir Trbies think of themselves as Yadhavs.

There is Jat Yadhav rivalry.

Mahabharata is a epic that had been much expanded, and probably started as a collection of legends and tales told at fairs and festivals.


The Gita is supposed to be dated 2nd century BCE

The MBH was being revised right upto 100 years ago.

Much of the historical information is late, 0 to 1000 CE( AD)

a lot is sheer imagination.

Jat clans are many in the MBH, but are not recognised or given their just place.

Ravi

chhoraharyanada
April 5th, 2004, 01:27 AM
Hey Ravi Bhai,

Thanks a lot for your help man!!

Most appreciated.

Living in the UK, I dont know any Yadavs - so I couldnt tell you about differences as I dont really know any. Just see Mulayam and Lalloo on Star News every now and then.

So, why do Ahirs see themselves as Yadavs and not Jats?

And where does the Jat-Yadav rivalry occur? Is it the same type as Jat-Rajput rivalry?

ajat
April 5th, 2004, 09:35 PM
Hi Fellows,

I personally do not think there is any relationship between Jats and Yadavs other than similar sounding names.

Best Wishes,

chhoraharyanada
April 7th, 2004, 04:35 PM
Ram Ram 2 all ...

I find this debate quite fascinating.

I dont think you can go on "features" as such. Ibbetson was one of the first guys who carried out these anthropological researches and he mentions the Ahirs in the same sentence as the Jats,Gujjars & Rajputs.

The AJGaR regiment in the army still exists even from the British times.

When you talk of features ... I mean, the other day I was watching the cricket. If you look at some of the Haryanvi Jats - take Kapil Dev, Ashish Nehra and Virender Sehwag ... then none of them look alike.
Ashish Nehra has the "typical" Jat features - tall,long limbed,"thika" nose,fair skinned etc.
But then take Kapil - all of the above, but has the skin tone of a Bihari chamar!
And then apna Veeru Bhai - he's none of the above!
So I dont think we can use these "features" as a benchmark!

Anyways ... just my views.

Ravi Bhai,
still curious as to why Ahirs choose to be Yadavs and not Jats?

rajendersingh
April 7th, 2004, 08:43 PM
Ramandeep,
ahir used to be yadavs and latest trend in haryana is that they call themselves as rao.
i have read in lt r s joon book about their association with jats but i do not agree with him .there is no solid reason to support that
infact i am at a loss to understand why and when these ppl started writing yadavs. no where i could find there assocition with krishana.no where it is written that krishana was ahir.
they are quite different than jats .they differ in physic,temprament,complexion .invariably u will find a ahir with a small torso and long legs.that can be made out from a distance.where as in jats its not the case. their complex is typicaly dark.where as in jats u will find dark complex also but that will have a glow of its own but not in ahirs.
temprament wise they are very shrewd and cunning ppl.in this case they do show lot of similarty to khatri punjabis and some time they even out smart them.
in haryana they are dominating gurgaon,rewari,and mahendergargh distrcts.in other prts of haryana also ,we come across many villages of ahirs.
in recent history there is only one name which has got some importance.. rao tula ram.but irony is that he never fought against britshers and his claim to heroism is also dubious.
he was in constant contact with bahadurshah jaffer and britishers during 1857 with the mind to be in good books of both and join the winner in the end.when britishers won the war he wrote to them for mercy,since britishers were aware of his double standards and they made their intentions very clear that man of such a character does not deserve mercy.getting this information,rao tula ram fled the country and first went to jodhpur state.there he started dealing in salt business. after some time he fled from there also fearing for his life. and that fear took him to many places like iran,afganistan russia and finaly his end came in afganistan.

and then india bacame independent......... and rewards are great rao tula ram marg and what not.... we r yet to see a road in the name of raja nahar singh and nawab of jhajjar who were hanged in delhi by gore sahabs.

kapil dev is not jat as many ppl have written on the site .his parents came from west panjab now pakistan and settled in sirsa district and later moved to chandigargh. he is a punjabi khati and got nothing to do with jats

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 08:45 PM
Hi Ramandeep,

“I dont think you can go on "features" as such….. When you talk of features ... I mean, the other day I was watching the cricket. If you look at some of the Haryanvi Jats - take Kapil Dev, Ashish Nehra and Virender Sehwag ... then none of them look alike.
Ashish Nehra has the "typical" Jat features - tall,long limbed,"thika" nose,fair skinned etc.
But then take Kapil - all of the above, but has the skin tone of a Bihari chamar!
And then apna Veeru Bhai - he's none of the above!
So I dont think we can use these "features" as a benchmark!”

If you can notice so much diversity in the physical characteristics of Jats as you describe – are the Jats even a race? What if every indigenous and foreign Tom, Dick, and Harry who chose to farm are called Jats?

Regards,

chhoraharyanada
April 7th, 2004, 10:12 PM
Hi Sunny,

Of course the Jats are a race!!
Would you like to tell us what we are then?!

Anyways ... my point was that I am sure there must be better ways of differentiating one group from the other than "features"?

And then - why would Ibbetson make that up?British are notorious for their "divide and rule" policies? Not their "unite and rule" policies? Why add another ethnic group that played quite a part in 1857 to another that has such a fiery warlike temperament (us Jats)?

What about those ancient Central asian tribes theories?
Jat (Gattae)? Dahiya (Dahae) and similarly for Ahirs (Ahars)?

chhoraharyanada
April 7th, 2004, 10:22 PM
Rajendra Ji,

Kapil Dev is not a Jat?
Nahee yaar can't be ... everybody always says he's a Jat!!

That is news to me!! I am in shock!!
I will take down all his posters! <<nahee ... just joking! itna bhi nahi!! >>

Anyways ... onto more historical matters,
interesting what you say on Rao Tula Ram.
I've never heard any of that before. I thought he was quite a great figure of 1857.

But anyways - from what I was reading on Ravi Bhai's yahoo! e-groups, Rao Tula Ram was half Jat?
His mother was a sikh(!) lady by the name of Gyan Kaur. Gyan Kaur was according to that, the cousin of Maharani Chand Kaur (Who was either the wife of the great Maharaja Ranjeet Singh or his son, Kharak Singh)cant remember but one of the two.
Maharani Chand Kaur was a Jatti, 'cos the apparently the misls of the kingdom of Punjab only wanted a Jat ruler of the Punjab - hence, her child was the first in line (1. because of age and 2. because of caste). The Maharaja (Ranjeet Singh) was notorious for his eye for the ladies. He had 17 wives, of which 5 were muslim and the mother of Maharaja Duleep Singh, Rani Jindan was a hindu bahmani.

Why would a Jat Sikh family of high prestige give their daughter to a Rao (Ahir) family of Haryana?!

Could somebody please fill in some blanks for me please.

Ram Ram!!

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 10:24 PM
Hi Ramandeep,

“Of course the Jats are a race!!”
I thought you said they all look very different??

I know Panjabi Jats look different than U.P. Jats.

“Would you like to tell us what we are then?!”

Who knows Jat could be an umbrella term for “zamindar”?

“Anyways ... my point was that I am sure there must be better ways of differentiating one group from the other than "features"?”

Of course there are. But your own observation show that we have influence from diverse gene pools.

“And then - why would Ibbetson make that up?”

You mean Ibbetson and his joint Jat-Rajput race?

“British are notorious for their "divide and rule" policies?”

OK.

“Not their "unite and rule" policies?”

They did create the Indian Union.

“Why add another ethnic group that played quite a part in 1857 to another that has such a fiery warlike temperament (us Jats)?”

I don’t follow.

“What about those ancient Central asian tribes theories?”

You mean Sakas, Kushans, and Ephthalites?

”Jat (Gattae)? Dahiya (Dahae) and similarly for Ahirs (Ahars)?”

There are just etymologies – who knows they may be wrong?

Please prove that Jats are a race, are descended from Getae, and related to Yadavs?

Regards,

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Hi Ramandeep,

On your second post….

“….the mother of Maharaja Duleep Singh, Rani Jindan was a hindu bahmani.”

Rani Jindan was an Aulakh Jatti. Best Wishes.

rajendersingh
April 7th, 2004, 10:59 PM
dear all,
rao tula ram son of some lady related to maharaja ranjit singh... there can be no bigger bluff than this ....... kahan raja bhoj or kaha gangu teli......
and this kapil dev thing is the gospel truth.. and why to feel bad we alwys missed the lime light .. jats produced the best sportsman in the country .. many more times than any other caste.. circket was not our domain for some obvious reasons .. now jats have taken it ..it will be a different game now..
rani jindal .. and some other ladies were responsible for the down fall of sikhs.. dodras manuplated them and rest is the history.
a book i read on the subject was by khuswant singh's ranjeet singh .. recently.. i found it very interesting.

rajendersingh
April 7th, 2004, 11:01 PM
its dogra's who manipulated the things

chhoraharyanada
April 7th, 2004, 11:13 PM
Sunny Singh (Apr 07, 2004 12:54 p.m.):
Hi Ramandeep,

“Of course the Jats are a race!!”
I thought you said they all look very different??

I know Panjabi Jats look different than U.P. Jats.

“Would you like to tell us what we are then?!”

Who knows Jat could be an umbrella term for “zamindar”?

“Anyways ... my point was that I am sure there must be better ways of differentiating one group from the other than "features"?”

Of course there are. But your own observation show that we have influence from diverse gene pools.

“And then - why would Ibbetson make that up?”

You mean Ibbetson and his joint Jat-Rajput race?

“British are notorious for their "divide and rule" policies?”

OK.

“Not their "unite and rule" policies?”

They did create the Indian Union.

“Why add another ethnic group that played quite a part in 1857 to another that has such a fiery warlike temperament (us Jats)?”

I don’t follow.

“What about those ancient Central asian tribes theories?”

You mean Sakas, Kushans, and Ephthalites?

”Jat (Gattae)? Dahiya (Dahae) and similarly for Ahirs (Ahars)?”

There are just etymologies – who knows they may be wrong?

Please prove that Jats are a race, are descended from Getae, and related to Yadavs?

Regards,

"I know Panjabi Jats look different than U.P. Jats."

... well, there cant be any concrete proof on this, but my mum's theory on this (She's a jat sikh lady BTW) is that when the turks and arab invaders came into the subcontinent prior to the Mughal rule they used to rape women, loot and plunder etc.
Old wives tale - maybe. But then, I notice a lot of Punjabi Jats (esp. the pugh wale Sikhs) - some have orange tints to their beards. And I'm talking of the Pran Sahib variety (film Zanjeer). This is not found in North Indian Jats.

"You mean Ibbetson and his joint Jat-Rajput race?"

... Ibbetson was the one who concluded that 'Jats,Rajputs,Gujjars and probably Ahirs are of the same stock'.
So again - why make it up?

"They did create the Indian Union."

... The British created the All India Congress with A.O. Hume; they didnt create the Indian Union as such.

On the British's Divide & Rule techniques, I recommend a book by Professor HS Oberoi entitled "The Construction Of Religious Boundaries". It charts the creation and rise of the Singh Sabha movement, and how "us" and "them" rose amongst sikhs and hindus in the Punjab.

"“Why add another ethnic group that played quite a part in 1857 to another that has such a fiery warlike temperament (us Jats)?”
>> I don’t follow."

.... the Yadavs/Ahirs were involved a great deal in the 1857 revolt.
So back to my original point - why create a bloc of India's castes renouned for fighting,rioting,gadari,krantikari etc etc?

"“What about those ancient Central asian tribes theories?”
>> You mean Sakas, Kushans, and Ephthalites?"

... haan ji!!

"”Jat (Gattae)? Dahiya (Dahae) and similarly for Ahirs (Ahars)?”
>> There are just etymologies – who knows they may be wrong?"

... OK, I'm in way over my head! But I notice you and Ravi Bhai are debating the very same topic on the "Porus" thread, so I'll use his arguments as a proxy for mine!
I am sorry - I dont know, but I am sure others do!

"Please prove that Jats are a race, are descended from Getae, and related to Yadavs?"

... I can't! thats why I posted this thread - to find out!!

chhoraharyanada
April 7th, 2004, 11:18 PM
Rajender Singh (Apr 07, 2004 01:29 p.m.):
dear all,
rao tula ram son of some lady related to maharaja ranjit singh... there can be no bigger bluff than this ....... .

Rajender Ji,

Well - all websites and links seem to be in unison that Gyan Kaur was the mother of Rao Tula Ram.

I did not say that Gyan Kaur was related to Maharaja Ranjeet Singh.

One of the weblinks provided by Ravi Bhai on the e-group on Yahoo! says that Gyan Kaur was the 1st cousin sister of Maharani Chand Kaur.
And from what I'm looking up now. Maharani Chand Kaur was Maharaja Ranjeet Singh's daughter-in-law, wife of Kharak Singh and mother of NauNehal Singh.

Ram Ram!!

PS: Sunny Singh Ji ... thanks for the info on Maharani Jindan!

ajat
April 8th, 2004, 12:12 AM
Hi Ramandeep,
“... well, there cant be any concrete proof on this, but my mum's theory on this (She's a jat sikh lady BTW) is that when the turks and arab invaders came into the subcontinent prior to the Mughal rule they used to rape women, loot and plunder etc.”
I’m sure the Turks and Arabs did. But do you suppose their illicit children were allowed to rejoin Jat fraternity?
“Old wives tale - maybe. But then, I notice a lot of Punjabi Jats (esp. the pugh wale Sikhs) - some have orange tints to their beards.”
A secondary non-adaptive genetic trait. Unless they are using henna. This is found amongst Jats, Labanas, Kambohs, and Khatris.
“And I'm talking of the Pran Sahib variety (film Zanjeer). This is not found in North Indian Jats.”
It’s not?
“... Ibbetson was the one who concluded that 'Jats,Rajputs,Gujjars and probably Ahirs are of the same stock'.
So again - why make it up?”
I can understand Jats, some Rajputs, and Gujars, but why Yadavs?
“... The British created the All India Congress with A.O. Hume; they didnt create the Indian Union as such.”
My point being they did have to ability to consolidate people of diverse backgrounds.
“On the British's Divide & Rule techniques, I recommend a book by Professor HS Oberoi entitled "The Construction Of Religious Boundaries". It charts the creation and rise of the Singh Sabha movement, and how "us" and "them" rose amongst sikhs and hindus in the Punjab.”
Fenech has written a recent book that falls in line with Oberoi’s view called “Martyrdom in the Sikh Tradition”
“.... the Yadavs/Ahirs were involved a great deal in the 1857 revolt.
So back to my original point - why create a bloc of India's castes renouned for fighting,rioting,gadari,krantikari etc etc?”
Don’t know – sounds like a Martial Race theory like MacMunn.
“... haan ji!!”
What do you want to discuss about these Central Asian invaders?
“... OK, I'm in way over my head! But I notice you and Ravi Bhai are debating the very same topic on the "Porus" thread, so I'll use his arguments as a proxy for mine!
I am sorry - I dont know, but I am sure others do!”
Okay so you are suggesting that Getae = Jat = Yadav?
“... I can't! thats why I posted this thread - to find out!!”
Start with this. Has there been any intermarriage between Jats and Yadavs? What “level” of caste are the Yadavs? Thanks,

chhoraharyanada
April 8th, 2004, 02:49 AM
Sunny Singh (Apr 07, 2004 02:42 p.m.):
Hi Ramandeep,
“... well, there cant be any concrete proof on this, but my mum's theory on this (She's a jat sikh lady BTW) is that when the turks and arab invaders came into the subcontinent prior to the Mughal rule they used to rape women, loot and plunder etc.”
I’m sure the Turks and Arabs did. But do you suppose their illicit children were allowed to rejoin Jat fraternity?
“Old wives tale - maybe. But then, I notice a lot of Punjabi Jats (esp. the pugh wale Sikhs) - some have orange tints to their beards.”
A secondary non-adaptive genetic trait. Unless they are using henna. This is found amongst Jats, Labanas, Kambohs, and Khatris.
“And I'm talking of the Pran Sahib variety (film Zanjeer). This is not found in North Indian Jats.”
It’s not?
“... Ibbetson was the one who concluded that 'Jats,Rajputs,Gujjars and probably Ahirs are of the same stock'.
So again - why make it up?”
I can understand Jats, some Rajputs, and Gujars, but why Yadavs?
“... The British created the All India Congress with A.O. Hume; they didnt create the Indian Union as such.”
My point being they did have to ability to consolidate people of diverse backgrounds.
“On the British's Divide & Rule techniques, I recommend a book by Professor HS Oberoi entitled "The Construction Of Religious Boundaries". It charts the creation and rise of the Singh Sabha movement, and how "us" and "them" rose amongst sikhs and hindus in the Punjab.”
Fenech has written a recent book that falls in line with Oberoi’s view called “Martyrdom in the Sikh Tradition”
“.... the Yadavs/Ahirs were involved a great deal in the 1857 revolt.
So back to my original point - why create a bloc of India's castes renouned for fighting,rioting,gadari,krantikari etc etc?”
Don’t know – sounds like a Martial Race theory like MacMunn.
“... haan ji!!”
What do you want to discuss about these Central Asian invaders?
“... OK, I'm in way over my head! But I notice you and Ravi Bhai are debating the very same topic on the "Porus" thread, so I'll use his arguments as a proxy for mine!
I am sorry - I dont know, but I am sure others do!”
Okay so you are suggesting that Getae = Jat = Yadav?
“... I can't! thats why I posted this thread - to find out!!”
Start with this. Has there been any intermarriage between Jats and Yadavs? What “level” of caste are the Yadavs? Thanks,

"I’m sure the Turks and Arabs did. But do you suppose their illicit children were allowed to rejoin Jat fraternity?"

... good point. But then do you think Indian civilization of 10th century would understand the concepts of pregnancy,gestation,DNA and paternity etc?

"“... Ibbetson was the one who concluded that 'Jats,Rajputs,Gujjars and probably Ahirs are of the same stock'.
So again - why make it up?”
I can understand Jats, some Rajputs, and Gujars, but why Yadavs?"

... how should I know? Why don't you offer a reasonable explanation or motive please?

"“.... the Yadavs/Ahirs were involved a great deal in the 1857 revolt.
So back to my original point - why create a bloc of India's castes renouned for fighting,rioting,gadari,krantikari etc etc?”
>> Don’t know – sounds like a Martial Race theory like MacMunn."

... firstly, please could you briefly tell me what MacMunn's theory was.
... secondly, I'm just going on the circumstantial evidence:
1. Ibbetson (and Joon afterwards) have clumped Ahirs in the same group as Jats, Gujjars etc.
2. The british created the AJGaR regiment (that still exists today).
3. Then as Joon purported, some Ahirs and Jats have the same Gotras?!

"Okay so you are suggesting that Getae = Jat = Yadav?"

... no, "of the same stock" does not mean the same as! Thats like, making the assumption that the Saka races were all one uniform tribe? The Ahars (Ahirs) were a tribe, just like the Gatae (Jat) were a Saka tribe.

"Start with this. Has there been any intermarriage between Jats and Yadavs? What “level” of caste are the Yadavs? Thanks"

... Level of caste: well Yadavs (ie, cattle farmers) are OBC's in U.P. where they are the most concentrated. Just like the Jats are OBC's in U.P.

... as for marriage: well, if we can accept that Jats and Rajputs are of the same stock without debate - then, those two don't intermarry. From all accounts they dont get along at all in Rajasthan. In Punjab, a couple of months ago, Rajputs killed a Jat Sikh youth for eloping with a Rajput kuri.

So, perhaps Sunny - you're using marriage as an inappropriate/inaccurate benchmark, or indicator?

ajat
April 8th, 2004, 03:20 AM
Hi Ramandeep,
“... good point. But then do you think Indian civilization of 10th century would understand the concepts of pregnancy,gestation,DNA and paternity etc?”
I’m sure they did…if we believe the Jats fought a famous naval battle against Mahmud of Ghaznavi at this time. But good point, we all tend to use present day values to understand the past.

In short, how do we suppose the Massagetae or Getae for that matter have anything to do with Jats some 2500 years later?

“... how should I know? Why don't you offer a reasonable explanation or motive please?”

I really can’t. All I can say is that popular tradition of many Jat tribes is that they are descended from some Raja. But then again every human wants to be a descendent of a king.

“... firstly, please could you briefly tell me what MacMunn's theory was.”

MacMunn held that Jat and Scythian were interchangeable words – and Jat were later comer from the “normal” Aryan fold. He also held that all martial races of India we somehow derived from the “great” people known was Jats and Rajputs of North India.

“1. Ibbetson (and Joon afterwards) have clumped Ahirs in the same group as Jats, Gujjars etc”

What was their reasoning?

“2. The british created the AJGaR regiment (that still exists today).”

British also created Sikh Light compose of Mazhabi (Churas) and Ramdasias (Chamars).

“3. Then as Joon purported, some Ahirs and Jats have the same Gotras?!”

Which gotras are these? Mazhabis (Churas) have the same clan names as Jat Sikhs – Gill, Sandhu, etc. does that make them related to Jat Sikhs?

“.. no, "of the same stock" does not mean the same as! Thats like, making the assumption that the Saka races were all one uniform tribe? The Ahars (Ahirs) were a tribe, just like the Gatae (Jat) were a Saka tribe.”

Sakas is very comprehensive term. Anyways, how are the Jats and Yadavs related?

“... Level of caste: well Yadavs (ie, cattle farmers) are OBC's in U.P. where they are the most concentrated. Just like the Jats are OBC's in U.P.”

So Yadavs live alongside Deswali Jats?

“... as for marriage: well, if we can accept that Jats and Rajputs are of the same stock without debate - then, those two don't intermarry. From all accounts they dont get along at all in Rajasthan. In Punjab, a couple of months ago, Rajputs killed a Jat Sikh youth for eloping with a Rajput kuri.”

I’m not sure if Jat and Rajputs are of the same stock. I have heard rumors about a event in Panjab with Mehtons and Jat Sikh - but strongly doubt it. But I am sure it would have been the other way around – Rajputs would accept a union with a Jat-Sikh with open arms.

“So, perhaps Sunny - you're using marriage as an inappropriate/inaccurate benchmark, or indicator?”

Sure, perhaps.

Good Luck,

rajendersingh
April 8th, 2004, 11:53 AM
Ramandeep,
every lady writing kaur is not sikh,this is very common among hindu jat ladies also.same is the case with other castes also.

rao tula ram was born on 9 dec 1825. his father name was rao puran singh and mother was rani gain kaur or kanwar.she was daughter of jahari singh,who belonged to village palhawas district rewari haryana

chhoraharyanada
April 8th, 2004, 05:38 PM
Rajender Singh (Apr 08, 2004 02:23 a.m.):
Ramandeep,
every lady writing kaur is not sikh,this is very common among hindu jat ladies also.same is the case with other castes also.

rao tula ram was born on 9 dec 1825. his father name was rao puran singh and mother was rani gain kaur or kanwar.she was daughter of jahari singh,who belonged to village palhawas district rewari haryana

Dear Rajender Ji,

This taken off http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/files/ and under AhirGujar rule Narnaul.doc

"NOTE: Kamini Kaur cousin of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's 2nd wife Chand Kaur, was married to Rao Mohan Pratap Singh. Kamini Kaur & Gyan Kaur - Tularam's mother, were sisters. Gyan Kaur got married to Rao Mohan Pratap's cousin Rao Puran Singh - Rao Tularam's father. The Kaur sisters (Chand, Kamani (Kammo) & Gyan) were grand-daughters of Sardar Jai Singh of Kanheiya Misl."

The main error with this, is that Maharani Chand Kaur was not the wife of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh, but the wife of his son Kharak Singh.

I think, since Ravi Bhai posted this , perhaps he can clarify ... ?

ravichaudhary
April 8th, 2004, 05:47 PM
Ramandeep (Apr 08, 2004 08:08 a.m.):]

Dear Rajender Ji,

This taken off http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/files/ and under AhirGujar rule Narnaul.doc

"NOTE: Kamini Kaur cousin of Maharaja Ranjit Singh's 2nd wife Chand Kaur, was married to Rao Mohan Pratap Singh. Kamini Kaur & Gyan Kaur - Tularam's mother, were sisters. Gyan Kaur got married to Rao Mohan Pratap's cousin Rao Puran Singh - Rao Tularam's father. The Kaur sisters (Chand, Kamani (Kammo) & Gyan) were grand-daughters of Sardar Jai Singh of Kanheiya Misl."

The main error with this, is that Maharani Chand Kaur was not the wife of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh, but the wife of his son Kharak Singh.

I think, since Ravi Bhai posted this , perhaps he can clarify ... ?

***********

It is raw material.

I cannot clarify.

Rajendra gives her father's name and Village.

That is good evidence

Ravi

chhoraharyanada
April 8th, 2004, 06:11 PM
Sunny Singh (Apr 07, 2004 05:50 p.m.):


“1. Ibbetson (and Joon afterwards) have clumped Ahirs in the same group as Jats, Gujjars etc”

What was their reasoning?

“2. The british created the AJGaR regiment (that still exists today).”

British also created Sikh Light compose of Mazhabi (Churas) and Ramdasias (Chamars).

“3. Then as Joon purported, some Ahirs and Jats have the same Gotras?!”

Which gotras are these? Mazhabis (Churas) have the same clan names as Jat Sikhs – Gill, Sandhu, etc. does that make them related to Jat Sikhs?

“.. no, "of the same stock" does not mean the same as! Thats like, making the assumption that the Saka races were all one uniform tribe? The Ahars (Ahirs) were a tribe, just like the Gatae (Jat) were a Saka tribe.”

Sakas is very comprehensive term. Anyways, how are the Jats and Yadavs related?

“... Level of caste: well Yadavs (ie, cattle farmers) are OBC's in U.P. where they are the most concentrated. Just like the Jats are OBC's in U.P.”

So Yadavs live alongside Deswali Jats?

“... as for marriage: well, if we can accept that Jats and Rajputs are of the same stock without debate - then, those two don't intermarry. From all accounts they dont get along at all in Rajasthan. In Punjab, a couple of months ago, Rajputs killed a Jat Sikh youth for eloping with a Rajput kuri.”

I’m not sure if Jat and Rajputs are of the same stock. I have heard rumors about a event in Panjab with Mehtons and Jat Sikh - but strongly doubt it. But I am sure it would have been the other way around – Rajputs would accept a union with a Jat-Sikh with open arms.

“So, perhaps Sunny - you're using marriage as an inappropriate/inaccurate benchmark, or indicator?”

Sure, perhaps.

Good Luck,


Hi Sunny,

"“1. Ibbetson (and Joon afterwards) have clumped Ahirs in the same group as Jats, Gujjars etc”
>> What was their reasoning?"

... perhaps, you could shed some light for me.
or offer some possible motives for the British to clump Ahirs in the same group.

"“2. The british created the AJGaR regiment (that still exists today).”
>> British also created Sikh Light compose of Mazhabi (Churas) and Ramdasias (Chamars)."

... yes, but that was not based on them sharing the same ethnic background, unlike AJGaR. According to BharatRakshak it was based around them having served in Guru Gobind Singh's khalsa fauj?

"“3. Then as Joon purported, some Ahirs and Jats have the same Gotras?!”
>> Which gotras are these? Mazhabis (Churas) have the same clan names as Jat Sikhs – Gill, Sandhu, etc. does that make them related to Jat Sikhs?"

... well, no it doesnt. But then again, there has never been any talk of Choore being linked with Jats.
If you want to take this example to the extremum - then even that is possible. You have Jat Chaudhary's as you do Bengali Chaudhary's (with ref: to the Mahima Chaudhary debate). On your argument, one could argue the case for Jats and Bengali Chaudhary being linked.
What I am trying to stress is that you have to draw a line somewhere between a serious correlation and a spurious correlation (in the language of the statistics!).

... incidentally, Are Ibbetson and Joon the only two historical writers that have come up with the Ahir-Jat relationship? Or, are there others too?

"Sakas is very comprehensive term. Anyways, how are the Jats and Yadavs related?"

... as I have already tried explaining - Jats can trace their lineage back to the Sakas, as can Ahirs. That does not in any ways mean that Jat=Yadav. It just implies they can trace their lineage back to the same ancient tribe.

"So Yadavs live alongside Deswali Jats?"

... according to Joon, Deswal is a gotra that exists amongst UP Yadavs.
kind of similar to how in Punjab, Chohan exists amongst Jat Sikhs and Rajputs.

"Start with this. Has there been any intermarriage between Jats and Yadavs?"

... Well, like I have said earlier, perhaps marriage is an inaccurate indicator.

You're most probably right about Jat Sikhs/Rajput Sikhs relationship. A conversation with my mother last night corroborated what you said. According to her, Kumhara Sikhs (potter caste) are inextricably linked with Rajputs. So perhaps Rajputs in Punjab dont carry the same ankh as they would do in say, their traditional stronghold of Rajasthan.

However, can other members provide some input here (as my knowledge on this is limited):
1) would a Rajput family accept a Jat boy for their daughter in RAJASTHAN?
2) the same - for Ahirs in HARYANA?

ajat
April 8th, 2004, 09:24 PM
Hi Ramandeep,
“... perhaps, you could shed some light for me.
or offer some possible motives for the British to clump Ahirs in the same group.”
Well Ibbetson and Rose simply rehashed Tod and Cunningham’s view – Tod’s view being the Jats were the Getae and formed one the famous Rajput clans. Cunningham identified the Zaths (Jats) with the Xanthii of Strabo, and later with the Iatii of Pliny.
But Cunningham did hold the Jats, Gujars, Gakhars and Ahir as foreign race. Rajputs he thought were of original Aryan stock.
Now how does this still prove that Jats are related to Yadavs?
“... yes, but that was not based on them sharing the same ethnic background, unlike AJGaR. According to BharatRakshak it was based around them having served in Guru Gobind Singh's khalsa fauj?”
Never heard of this – even Khalsa fauj had segregated regiments.
“... well, no it doesnt. But then again, there has never been any talk of Choore being linked with Jats.”
Sure some of the Mazhabis of Tarn Tarn claim they were “fallen” Jats. Same with the group if Chamars called Jatia Chamars.
“If you want to take this example to the extremum - then even that is possible. You have Jat Chaudhary's as you do Bengali Chaudhary's (with ref: to the Mahima Chaudhary debate). On your argument, one could argue the case for Jats and Bengali Chaudhary being linked.”
I thought Chaudary was a title – I don’t hold too much emphasis in like name sounding theories. That’s why I ask how in the heck are Jats related to Jatavs?

”What I am trying to stress is that you have to draw a line somewhere between a serious correlation and a spurious correlation (in the language of the statistics!).”
I agree 100%.
“... incidentally, Are Ibbetson and Joon the only two historical writers that have come up with the Ahir-Jat relationship? Or, are there others too?”
Cunningham came up the with relationship Ibbetson rehashed it. B. Prakash also held this view, but it was once again a parroting of Cunningham.
In addition, some folks after reading Tod and his Annals of Jaisalmer, believe the Yadubansi stock, i.e. Bhattis were somehow related to Yadavs.
“... as I have already tried explaining - Jats can trace their lineage back to the Sakas, as can Ahirs. That does not in any ways mean that Jat=Yadav. It just implies they can trace their lineage back to the same ancient tribe.”
How can Jats trace their lineage back to Sakas? How can Ahirs trace their back to Abhiras or possibly Avars? Why not trace further back and say were all Indo-Europeans? See the problem when you get too generic.
“... according to Joon, Deswal is a gotra that exists amongst UP Yadavs.”
Deswal is a grand division. It mean “of the country” so to put the term equivalent to aboringines – and Deswalis were their seat for a considerable long period was Mathura.
“kind of similar to how in Punjab, Chohan exists amongst Jat Sikhs and Rajputs.”
Jat Sikhs will admit the Chohans are not part of their race – and that they are degraded Rajputs.
“... Well, like I have said earlier, perhaps marriage is an inaccurate indicator.”
It probably is not. So what proof do you have other than a statement by Alexander Cunningham?
“You're most probably right about Jat Sikhs/Rajput Sikhs relationship.”
Jat Sikhs consider all people in Panjab inferior to them – whether they are inferior or not.
“ A conversation with my mother last night corroborated what you said. According to her, Kumhara Sikhs (potter caste) are inextricably linked with Rajputs.”
Jat say they are Rajputs, Khumiars claim Rajput links, Mehton vagrants say they are Rajputs, Gaddeyalle Gypsies says there are Rajputs – everyone wants a royal lineage – but I guess the only Sidhu-Brar tribes can prove their links with Rajputs.
“So perhaps Rajputs in Punjab dont carry the same ankh as they would do in say, their traditional stronghold of Rajasthan.”
Let me share a story – a Jat Sikh aunty of mine studied in Jodhpur and became accustomed to their way of life. She often went back to the Panjab to visit family. On the train ride back from Jodhpur, right around Sri Ganganagar Jat Sikhs came into prominence – it was here where she began to be taunted by young men – and here where she started to see rude behavior, extreme machismo, etc. This haughty attitude of Jat Sikhs becomes very apparent. Aggressive by nature and more proud than the average Rajput.
Jat Sikhs think Rajputs are “sunianey” and “sahu” – gentlemanlike people. Except for Ranghars who are Mohammadan Rajputs.
“However, can other members provide some input here (as my knowledge on this is limited):
1) would a Rajput family accept a Jat boy for their daughter in RAJASTHAN?”
This is a very important question – status varies from region to region. Being a Jat in Panjab and most of Haryana proper means a great deal – in Sindh it means nothing. In parts of Rajasthan it means nothing.
“2) the same - for Ahirs in HARYANA?”
Great point – maybe you are right; let’s drop the whole marriage thing. Even the Deswali Jats wouldn’t marry the Dhe Jats around 100 years ago.
Still you haven’t proved Jat are from the same stock as Yadavs. Thanks,

chhoraharyanada
April 8th, 2004, 10:54 PM
Hi Sunny,

"Now how does this still prove that Jats are related to Yadavs?"

... Well, I guess it is not really possible to prove that they are.
At the same time - there seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence that points in favour of this ancient link.

Obviously, since you know a lot more than I do - you could show your hand in this debate and reject the null hypothesis!

"In addition, some folks after reading Tod and his Annals of Jaisalmer, believe the Yadubansi stock, i.e. Bhattis were somehow related to Yadavs."

... what was the basis of this?

"“... as I have already tried explaining - Jats can trace their lineage back to the Sakas, as can Ahirs. That does not in any ways mean that Jat=Yadav. It just implies they can trace their lineage back to the same ancient tribe.”
>> How can Jats trace their lineage back to Sakas? How can Ahirs trace their back to Abhiras or possibly Avars? Why not trace further back and say were all Indo-Europeans? See the problem when you get too generic."

... you obviously know what you're talking about, and know the history a lot more than I do. So, maybe you could present the case for the Jats linking themselves to Getae & Ahirs to Ahars?
(I'm assuming this is the exact conversation you're having with Ravi Bhai on "Porus" thread).

"“... according to Joon, Deswal is a gotra that exists amongst UP Yadavs.”
Deswal is a grand division. It mean “of the country” so to put the term equivalent to aboringines – and Deswalis were their seat for a considerable long period was Mathura."

... (I could be wrong here). Wasnt Mathura the kingdom of Lord Krishna (A Yadav)? Surely, that would add more weight to that argument?

"“... Well, like I have said earlier, perhaps marriage is an inaccurate indicator.”
>> It probably is not."

... perhaps, you could chuck in your 2 cents into the Rao Tula Ram (Ahir)/Gyan Kaur - Maharani Chand Kaur relationship?
There's obviously a few pieces missing in that jigsaw puzzle.
Ravi Bhai says he can't clarify. Rajender Ji offered an alternative hypothesis.
If indeed Gyan Kaur and Maharani Chand Kaur were cousins, then (whilst on the theme of marriages) why would a respectable/prestigious Jat (Sikh!) family give one of thier women to a Haryanvi (Hindu) Ahir family?

Regards.

ajat
April 9th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Hi Ramandeep,
“.. Well, I guess it is not really possible to prove that they are.
At the same time - there seems to be a lot of circumstantial evidence that points in favour of this ancient link.”
What circumstantial evidence?
“Obviously, since you know a lot more than I do - you could show your hand in this debate and reject the null hypothesis!”
I don’t know enough about Yadavs to make an educated guess about them. Can you share with me their physical characteristics – do they resemble Haryanvi Jats?
“... what was the basis of this?”
Popular tradition/genealogy of the Bhattis of Jaisalmer.
“... you obviously know what you're talking about, and know the history a lot more than I do. So, maybe you could present the case for the Jats linking themselves to Getae & Ahirs to Ahars?”
I actually think the Jats have a much stronger case in linking themselves to Yuezhi or Kushans.
“... (I could be wrong here). Wasnt Mathura the kingdom of Lord Krishna (A Yadav)? Surely, that would add more weight to that argument?”
Would it add more weight – not at all – we are assuming that the popular tradition of Bhattis is correct. It goes like this – Yadubansi are in the lineage of Lord Krishna and Gaj, the ancestor of Ghazni in Afghanistan is the 12th (?) descendent of Lord Krishna’s kul. The famous Salivahan, founder of Salivahanpur near Sialkot claimed descent from Gaj – (so do many present Panjabi Jat clans). These folks came to be known as Bhattis and were mentioned alongside Jats in the early Arab accounts – the Bhattis and Jats joined Muhammad Bin Kassim in Sindh.
During subsequent Mohammadan incursions, the Bhattis were forced to leave Sialkot for the Sam Desert and it was there, that apparently Jaisal Bhatti founded Jaisalmer 1156 A.D.? These Rajas began to claim Yadubansi descent.
Further due to bickering some Bhattis left Jaisalmer for present Hanumangarh, and further to Bhattiana (cis-Sutlej Area). It was there that the Sidhu and Brar Jat clans emerged.
“... perhaps, you could chuck in your 2 cents into the Rao Tula Ram (Ahir)/Gyan Kaur - Maharani Chand Kaur relationship?”
Never heard of it.
“There's obviously a few pieces missing in that jigsaw puzzle.
Ravi Bhai says he can't clarify. Rajender Ji offered an alternative hypothesis.
If indeed Gyan Kaur and Maharani Chand Kaur were cousins, then (whilst on the theme of marriages) why would a respectable/prestigious Jat (Sikh!) family give one of thier women to a Haryanvi (Hindu) Ahir family?”
I say impossible.
Best Wishes,

chhoraharyanada
April 9th, 2004, 04:07 AM
Hi Sunny,

"What circumstantial evidence?"

... those few things I pointed out earlier, to which you've already offered your explanations.
From Ibbetson to Joon to same gotras to even, Rao Tula Ram/Gyan Kaur etc.

"I don’t know enough about Yadavs to make an educated guess about them. Can you share with me their physical characteristics – do they resemble Haryanvi Jats?"

... I can honestly hand-on-my heart say I dont know any Yadavs. So I could not compare.
But as for Haryanvi Jats: yes, there is a stereotypical image of the tall,fair skinned,long limbed,"thika" nak person.
But as I pointed out earlier not all Jat males of Haryana have these characteristics (with ref: Virender Sehwag).

"I actually think the Jats have a much stronger case in linking themselves to Yuezhi or Kushans."

... could you briefly tell me who the Yuezhi are?

"“... (I could be wrong here). Wasnt Mathura the kingdom of Lord Krishna (A Yadav)? Surely, that would add more weight to that argument?”
>> Would it add more weight – not at all – we are assuming that the popular tradition of Bhattis is correct. It goes like this – Yadubansi are in the lineage of Lord Krishna and Gaj ... "

... sorry Sunny, I think I missed something here. I thought you said Deswal Jat enjoyed a Raj of sorts in Mathura?
Talk me through this slowly please.
Ahirs of UP and Jats of UP share Deswal as a common gotra. You said that Deswal Jats ruled over Mathura. Mathura was a kingdom of Lord Krishna (a Yadav).
Thats where I asserted a possible correlation.
Please could you talk me through how we landed up with Mohammed Qassim in Sindh and SidhuBrar Jats?

"These Rajas began to claim Yadubansi descent.
Further due to bickering some Bhattis left Jaisalmer for present Hanumangarh, and further to Bhattiana (cis-Sutlej Area). It was there that the Sidhu and Brar Jat clans emerged. "

... So, are you saying Sidhu and Brar Jats are directly descended out of Bhatti clans? And after a dispute of sorts (where the latter claimed to be Yaduvanshi) they (Sidhu Brars) left to Malwa and "emerged" as you put it?

"“... perhaps, you could chuck in your 2 cents into the Rao Tula Ram (Ahir)/Gyan Kaur - Maharani Chand Kaur relationship?”
>> Never heard of it."

... Rao Tula Ram Ahir was a famous character from the 1857 revolt against the British. He was from Rewari. His parents were Rao Puran Singh and Rani Gyan Kaur.
The e-group on Yahoo! claims that Rani Gyan Kaur was the cousin sister of Maharani Chand Kaur (daughter-in-law of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh).Grand daughter of Sardar Jai Singh of Kanheiya Misl.

Some explanations have been offered, but nothing dispute this link with the Jat-Sikh kingdom of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh.

"I say impossible."

... yaar, personally I have no burning desire to share the same gene pool as Lalloo Yadav but from doing a few readings here&there, there are a few questions that need answering!
Hence, the sudden interest!

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to reply to all of my posts,

Regards,

Ramandeep.

ajat
April 9th, 2004, 04:26 AM
Hi Ramandeep,

“.. those few things I pointed out earlier, to which you've already offered your explanations.
From Ibbetson to Joon to same gotras to even, Rao Tula Ram/Gyan Kaur etc.”

Ok, let’s assume if Jats had a union say Chamars, does that make them related?

“.. I can honestly hand-on-my heart say I dont know any Yadavs. So I could not compare.
But as for Haryanvi Jats: yes, there is a stereotypical image of the tall,fair skinned,long limbed,"thika" nak person.
But as I pointed out earlier not all Jat males of Haryana have these characteristics (with ref: Virender Sehwag).”

Ok so now you are saying that a definite physical type predominates.

“... could you briefly tell me who the Yuezhi are?”

Yuezhi or Yueh-chih was nomadic tribe seated apparently in the Kansu province of China who were expelled from that region by Huns, after the construction (linking) of the Great Wall of China. Once uproot they fled west and south and uprooted Sakas near the Aral Sea, and afterward took control of Bactria.

“... sorry Sunny, I think I missed something here. I thought you said Deswal Jat enjoyed a Raj of sorts in Mathura?”

No I said Deswali Jats claim Mathura and surrounding areas are their homelands.

“Ahirs of UP and Jats of UP share Deswal as a common gotra. You said that Deswal Jats ruled over Mathura. Mathura was a kingdom of Lord Krishna (a Yadav).
Thats where I asserted a possible correlation.”

Deshwal is a Jat clan name – as well as a Grand Division – like Panjabi Jats are a grand division – Sandhu would be a clan name.

“Please could you talk me through how we landed up with Mohammed Qassim in Sindh and SidhuBrar Jats?”

Long story – Read Bhattivansh Parshashti – or Tawarikh-I-Siddhu Braran. There are literally dozens of books in Hindi about this.

“... So, are you saying Sidhu and Brar Jats are directly descended out of Bhatti clans?”

Yes.

“And after a dispute of sorts (where the latter claimed to be Yaduvanshi) they (Sidhu Brars) left to Malwa and "emerged" as you put it?”
Sidhu is descendent of Khiwa a Bhatti – Brar is son of Bur, who was son of Sidhu.

“... Rao Tula Ram Ahir was a famous character from the 1857 revolt against the British. He was from Rewari. His parents were Rao Puran Singh and Rani Gyan Kaur.
The e-group on Yahoo! claims that Rani Gyan Kaur was the cousin sister of Maharani Chand Kaur (daughter-in-law of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh).Grand daughter of Sardar Jai Singh of Kanheiya Misl.
Some explanations have been offered, but nothing dispute this link with the Jat-Sikh kingdom of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh.”
I Will have to review….

“.. yaar, personally I have no burning desire to share the same gene pool as Lalloo Yadav but from doing a few readings here&there, there are a few questions that need answering!
Hence, the sudden interest!”

Please by all means follow up.

“Anyways, thanks for taking the time to reply to all of my posts,”

No problem.

Regards.

chhoraharyanada
April 9th, 2004, 04:52 AM
Hi Sunny,

"“... Rao Tula Ram Ahir was a famous character from the 1857 revolt against the British. He was from Rewari. His parents were Rao Puran Singh and Rani Gyan Kaur.
The e-group on Yahoo! claims that Rani Gyan Kaur was the cousin sister of Maharani Chand Kaur (daughter-in-law of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh).Grand daughter of Sardar Jai Singh of Kanheiya Misl.
Some explanations have been offered, but nothing dispute this link with the Jat-Sikh kingdom of Maharaja Ranjeet Singh.”
>> I Will have to review…."

... yeah, cool! whenever you get the time! This particular one would be greatly appreciated.

"Yuezhi or Yueh-chih was nomadic tribe seated apparently in the Kansu province of China who were expelled from that region by Huns, after the construction (linking) of the Great Wall of China. Once uproot they fled west and south and uprooted Sakas near the Aral Sea, and afterward took control of Bactria."

... interesting theory! what are the physical characteristics of these Yuezhis?

"“And after a dispute of sorts (where the latter claimed to be Yaduvanshi) they (Sidhu Brars) left to Malwa and "emerged" as you put it?”
>> Sidhu is descendent of Khiwa a Bhatti – Brar is son of Bur, who was son of Sidhu."

... aah, this would explain why Brars and Sidhus dont marry!

... whilst, on this Yaduvanshi theme - perhaps you could offer an explanation - where did the name Yadavinder come from?
Its not really common amongst Jat Sikhs. Yet the late Maharaja of Patiala had that as his name.

Regards,

Ramandeep

ravichaudhary
April 9th, 2004, 08:37 AM
Sunny S is one of the more humble and very learned Jat Scholars

A great characteristic of him is that he does not consider himself arrogant or infalliable, and is ever seeking to learn.

His questions are, then naturally very deep - like still waters.

Ravi

ajat
April 9th, 2004, 09:31 PM
Hi Raman,

“... yeah, cool! whenever you get the time! This particular one would be greatly appreciated.”

I will look into this…will take some time.

“... interesting theory! what are the physical characteristics of these Yuezhis?”

Not precisely sure of their physical characteristic, but from their coins – maybe Turko-Iranian.

Take a look at this article on Sunet Village near Ludhiana (scroll down). They also claim Jats may be descended from Kushans:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030620/ldh1.htm

“... aah, this would explain why Brars and Sidhus dont marry!”

Exactly.

“... whilst, on this Yaduvanshi theme - perhaps you could offer an explanation - where did the name Yadavinder come from?”

You mean Yadavinder Singh – former Sidhu Raja of Patiala? Sikhs loosly use personal names – Massa and Mehtab obviously Persian names – Jarnail (General) and Karnail (Colonel) is English influence – Shamsher and Bachittar (father must have been drunk when he named his child).

“Its not really common amongst Jat Sikhs. Yet the late Maharaja of Patiala had that as his name.”

Sidhus believe they are representative of Yadubans – so this may have lead to them choosing such a name. Some folks mistake Yadu with Yadav.

Ravi,

Thanks for the kind words – but let’s keep pushing forward.

Regards,

chhoraharyanada
April 9th, 2004, 11:13 PM
Sunny Singh (Apr 09, 2004 12:01 p.m.):
Hi Raman,

“... yeah, cool! whenever you get the time! This particular one would be greatly appreciated.”

I will look into this…will take some time.

“... interesting theory! what are the physical characteristics of these Yuezhis?”

Not precisely sure of their physical characteristic, but from their coins – maybe Turko-Iranian.

Take a look at this article on Sunet Village near Ludhiana (scroll down). They also claim Jats may be descended from Kushans:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20030620/ldh1.htm

“... aah, this would explain why Brars and Sidhus dont marry!”

Exactly.

“... whilst, on this Yaduvanshi theme - perhaps you could offer an explanation - where did the name Yadavinder come from?”

You mean Yadavinder Singh – former Sidhu Raja of Patiala? Sikhs loosly use personal names – Massa and Mehtab obviously Persian names – Jarnail (General) and Karnail (Colonel) is English influence – Shamsher and Bachittar (father must have been drunk when he named his child).

“Its not really common amongst Jat Sikhs. Yet the late Maharaja of Patiala had that as his name.”

Sidhus believe they are representative of Yadubans – so this may have lead to them choosing such a name. Some folks mistake Yadu with Yadav.

Ravi,

Thanks for the kind words – but let’s keep pushing forward.

Regards,

Hi Sunny,

Interesting article. Although I started reading about "free liquor in Ludhiana", before I realised I had to scroll down!!

good article - seals/coins often serve as unequivocal proof.

Just one last thing on this whole Yadu/Yadav business .. "Sidhus believe they are representative of Yadubans – so this may have lead to them choosing such a name. Some folks mistake Yadu with Yadav."

... sorry, I am not well informed on this. Can you please tell me what the difference between Yadu and Yadav is. I was of the impression that Yaduvansh/Yadubans etc signified, "those descended of Yadavs" or somethng along those lines.

Thanks,

ajat
April 10th, 2004, 02:55 AM
Hi Raman,
“Interesting article. Although I started reading about "free liquor in Ludhiana", before I realised I had to scroll down!!”
As a Sekhon, I suspected you couldn’t get past the free liquor.
“good article - seals/coins often serve as unequivocal proof.”
Sure that there was a Kushan presence – but occasionally, when I look in my change drawer I find a Canadian Quarter here and there. Does that mean a Canadian came to my house?
“... sorry, I am not well informed on this. Can you please tell me what the difference between Yadu and Yadav is. I was of the impression that Yaduvansh/Yadubans etc signified, "those descended of Yadavs" or somethng along those lines.”
Yaduvansh – “descendents” of Lord Krishna. I personally believe this genealogy was GIVEN to the Bhattis to trace their origins back to Indian antiquity and make them forget their Central Asian roots.
Thanks,

ravichaudhary
April 10th, 2004, 03:32 AM
I wonder if there is any authentic history of the people who call themselves Yadhavs.

The term by itself is quite widespread. From Bihar to Rajasthan to Southern India.

Many historians simply equate Yadu = Yadhav.

There is also a lack of History about the Gujars or Ahirs, Abhirs.

About the Jats, many Jats are now coming forward and researching writing their history.

Anyone know about any book of Yadhav, Gujar or Ahir history ?

Ravi

ravichaudhary
April 10th, 2004, 03:41 AM
[
Sidhus believe they are representative of Yadubans – so this may have lead to them choosing such a name. Some folks mistake Yadu with Yadav.
Regards,[/quote]

*****************
At the outset, no offence is intended to any one.

Many clans, monarchial families, started having their Mirasis( Bards) , Pandits, attach high antiquity and lineages to themselves to upgrade their social status.


The Jats who took to Rajputism, were particularly prone to this.


They also went one step further and called themselves Brahm- Ksatriyas i.e of Brahmin/Kshatriyas.

In time these familes started calling themselves Brahmins.

Indian Historians, who used to come mostly from the Brahmin or Kayasta class, saw the BrahmKshatriya word, and decided all these ruling families were of Brahmin origin,( obviously to upgrade themselves)and that is the version we find in Indian history textbooks.

With Jat historians coming forward, I would like to see this changed, and give the Jats their due recognition.

Ravi

chhoraharyanada
April 10th, 2004, 04:00 AM
Sunny Singh (Apr 09, 2004 05:25 p.m.):
Hi Raman,
“Interesting article. Although I started reading about "free liquor in Ludhiana", before I realised I had to scroll down!!”
As a Sekhon, I suspected you couldn’t get past the free liquor.
“good article - seals/coins often serve as unequivocal proof.”
Sure that there was a Kushan presence – but occasionally, when I look in my change drawer I find a Canadian Quarter here and there. Does that mean a Canadian came to my house?
“... sorry, I am not well informed on this. Can you please tell me what the difference between Yadu and Yadav is. I was of the impression that Yaduvansh/Yadubans etc signified, "those descended of Yadavs" or somethng along those lines.”
Yaduvansh – “descendents” of Lord Krishna. I personally believe this genealogy was GIVEN to the Bhattis to trace their origins back to Indian antiquity and make them forget their Central Asian roots.
Thanks,

"As a Sekhon, I suspected you couldn’t get past the free liquor."

... Haha! You should see my Biji when she learns of a "buy 1, get 1 free" offer at Costco!

"Sure that there was a Kushan presence – but occasionally, when I look in my change drawer I find a Canadian Quarter here and there. Does that mean a Canadian came to my house?"

... very good point!
It could just signify an advanced civilisation that evolved to a stage where they could trade with other civilizations!

"Yaduvansh – “descendents” of Lord Krishna."

... ok, good. So Yadav falls under Yaduvansh rather than the other way round!

Thanks!

chhoraharyanada
April 10th, 2004, 04:03 AM
Ravi Chaudhary (Apr 09, 2004 06:02 p.m.):
I wonder if there is any authentic history of the people who call themselves Yadhavs.

The term by itself is quite widespread. From Bihar to Rajasthan to Southern India.

Many historians simply equate Yadu = Yadhav.

There is also a lack of History about the Gujars or Ahirs, Abhirs.

About the Jats, many Jats are now coming forward and researching writing their history.

Anyone know about any book of Yadhav, Gujar or Ahir history ?

Ravi

As far as Punjabi castes and tribes go, there's the Ibbetson book.

The best I could find on a Haryana equivalent, after I typed "Haryana" in Amazon was a book by one KC Yadav(!)

I think there's a used copy going for around $15. Might be interested in pursuing it after I finish my exams.

chhoraharyanada
April 10th, 2004, 04:07 AM
I looked on a yadav website.
www.yadav.com - nothing on any foreign tribes.
Just them tracing their lineage around Lord Krishna as a central benchmark.
The impression I got was that they're happy in the knowledge of descending from Lord Krishna and happy with that lineage route.

ravichaudhary
April 10th, 2004, 09:08 AM
Ibbetson, was a census bureaucrat, plus his musings are over 125 years old.

The Yadhav connection to Lord Krishna is more mythology.

Lord Krishna is not that old. more like 2nd century BCE


Ravi

ajat
April 12th, 2004, 10:48 PM
Hi Raman,

“... very good point!
It could just signify an advanced civilisation that evolved to a stage where they could trade with other civilizations!”

Or it could be the Kushan were simply administrators – not the bulk of the peasantry.

“... ok, good. So Yadav falls under Yaduvansh rather than the other way round!”

Moon-descended Yadu – I believe the Yadu are none other than the Yuezhi.

“As far as Punjabi castes and tribes go, there's the Ibbetson book.”

Panjab contained most of Haryana during Ibbetson’s times. Try Rose’s book.

“I looked on a yadav website.
www.yadav.com - nothing on any foreign tribes.
Just them tracing their lineage around Lord Krishna as a central benchmark.
The impression I got was that they're happy in the knowledge of descending from Lord Krishna and happy with that lineage route.”

Wouldn’t you be happy if you were told that you were descended from a god?

Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 13th, 2004, 01:17 AM
[quote][b]Sunny Singh (Apr 12, 2004 01:18 Or it could be the Kushan were simply administrators – not the bulk of the peasantry.

“... ok, good. So Yadav falls under Yaduvansh rather than the other way round!”

Moon-descended Yadu – I believe the Yadu are none other than the Yuezhi.

**********
KUSHAN - is a clan name.

, the British historian and his indian vassal, saw Kushan on a coin, and thatw as enough to create an industry based on the term Kushan.

Like Roman.

Is Yuehzi, not pronuonced as " Gut, Gutia"?.

Ravi

ajat
April 13th, 2004, 04:17 AM
Hi Ravi,
“KUSHAN - is a clan name.”
Care to support this statement?
“the British historian and his indian vassal, saw Kushan on a coin, and thatw as enough to create an industry based on the term Kushan.”
Like Roman.”
Nice analogy, but not sure it’s correct. Can you prove this?
“Is Yuehzi, not pronuonced as " Gut, Gutia"?.”
No, it is not pronounced Gut or Gutia.
Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 13th, 2004, 06:26 AM
How is" Yueh Zhi" pronounced ?

Ravi

ajat
April 15th, 2004, 03:43 AM
Hi Ravi,

I presume...Yue-si or Yue-czi; judging by how it's characterized.

Best Wishes,

ajat
April 19th, 2004, 09:20 PM
Hi Ravi,

Why did you abandon the discussion?

Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 20th, 2004, 07:13 PM
I haven't.

I have been a bit tied up.

Let us start a new thread for exploring the Yuechi question, with a brief background note.

This is a very important topic.

I am sure the readers will find it very interesting and educative


Ravi

chhoraharyanada
May 26th, 2004, 02:28 AM
To Sunny,

Hi,

Any info yet on that Sikh Misl link to the Rewari Ahir clans?