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ravichaudhary
April 1st, 2004, 02:22 AM
The history section, origin of the Jats was amended on March 28,

I do wonder why we Jats need our history to be validated by some Englishman who lived over 200 years ago.

Todd was sent specifically to Rajasthan to make friends of the Rajputs and to make them allies of the British.

His book was written simply with that objective., He cobbled together some legends and glorified the Rajputs.

Every Jat reference was turned into a Rajput reference. He succeeded.

What is surprising is that the owners of this site, keep referring with reverence to what some Englishman , Todd, Cunningham etc say and ignore what our own Jat historians say.

What is also surprising, that there is now enough material on this site ( if one wishes to ignore what is on the Yahoo groups Jathistory site), to show that the Rajputs as a concept did not exist before the 10th century AD, but the Jats can be traced back to Rig Veda times( circa 2000 BCE).

.Why are the site owners, moderators,members content with putting forward erroneous information?

Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
April 1st, 2004, 02:38 AM
One question that does trouble me , is

How many of us Jats really care about how our community, our history and culture is portrayed ??

Ravi

biotechs2001
April 1st, 2004, 04:46 PM
Dear Ravi,
I appreciate your enthusiasm and dedication for Jat history. Its very tedious task and it requires a lot of patience and energy to collect the scattered information regarding Jat history, before putting in a proper format.
I personally believe Todd’s book is not a standard reference.
I can unequivocally state that at Jatland site one of the most worth reading sections is Jat history (Mainly maintained by Mr. Ravi)
I sincerely care about Jat history and it’s very unfortunate what I am reading in “Apni Kulhari, Apna Pair - Jatland.com on Jat history”.

Regards
Krishan



Ravi Chaudhary (Mar 31, 2004 03:52 p.m.):
The history section, origin of the Jats was amended on March 28,

I do wonder why we Jats need our history to be validated by some Englishman who lived over 200 years ago.

Todd was sent specifically to Rajasthan to make friends of the Rajputs and to make them allies of the British.

His book was written simply with that objective., He cobbled together some legends and glorified the Rajputs.

Every Jat reference was turned into a Rajput reference. He succeeded.

What is surprising is that the owners of this site, keep referring with reverence to what some Englishman , Todd, Cunningham etc say and ignore what our own Jat historians say.

What is also surprising, that there is now enough material on this site ( if one wishes to ignore what is on the Yahoo groups Jathistory site), to show that the Rajputs as a concept did not exist before the 10th century AD, but the Jats can be traced back to Rig Veda times( circa 2000 BCE).

.Why are the site owners, moderators,members content with putting forward erroneous information?

Ravi Chaudhary

rajendersingh
April 1st, 2004, 08:43 PM
ravi ji namaskar,
thanks for writing,i fully agree with u....col todd was not there to write any thing for jats....infact he was all bent to prove all the absurd things which were written or said by brahmins to support the rajputs.todd did his best to harm the jats in his own way as there was nothing original .

ravichaudhary
April 1st, 2004, 10:50 PM
Thanks both of you,


My point is not, to complain to castigate anyone, but rather to get members to take a positive view of our history and culture.

IF YOU CAN SAY SOMETHING POSITIVE, THEN INSTEAD WHY SAY SOMETHING NEGATIVE ABOUT YOUR COMMUNITY??

When someone goes looking for material on Jats, he/she will come up with Jatland.com.

And that is the impassion he/she will take away>

“ The origins are shrouded in Mystery”

Is this a Sherlock Holmes mystery?

They spread into the Punjab in the 11th century?

That is parroting what Nonica Datta and Irfan Habib write.

and Oh really?

I thought Henga Chaudhries of Mathura are direct descendants of Kaniska and the Kushans circa 100 AD,


Then another classic :

Mahmud Ghazni routed, yes routed the Jats in a Naval Battle, and took them all , their women, and children as slaves to Ghazni. .

The story of battle is Nonsense, a story developed 500 years after the supposed occurrence.

see:
http://www.jatland.com/cgi-bin/ub/UltraBoard.cgi?action=Read&BID=19&TID=351&SID=94264

Then why do the Jats, flock to a site, that is so negative about them ????


I know all of us are busy with Jobs, trying to make a living. Nithin Dahiya has done a wonderful job in organizing this site.

But we do need to project something positive not negativity?

Hence I ask, do we Jats really care about how the rest of the world sees us?

If we do care,, then how do we change this ?

Ravi Chaudhary


************

Here is one message with relevant URL’s.

The Vedic link of the Jats has been discussed on the Jathistory group with non-Jats, and none have refuted this evidence.

That is what the Jathistory group was formed so that theories could be discussed and sound views be created.

Search for Rig Veda in the search section.





http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/725

From: "Ravi Chaudhary" <ravichaudhary2000@yahoo.com> Date: Fri Aug 1, 2003 1:48 pmSubject: Jats and the Rig Vedas
ADVERTISEMENT

Dr Abbas,

you suggested that the Jats are seen as enemies in the RVand they did not follow Vedic practices.

Jat Clans in the Rig Veda

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/420

Jat Rishis in the Rig Veda

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/421

If they composed the Vedas, and over 60 of their clans (the majority)are found in the RV, who would they be enemies of?

And then how could they not follow Vedic practices ??


You might also see what Joon and Pauria ( who are Jats and Jathistorians) have to say.


Ravi

ajat
April 5th, 2004, 09:46 PM
Hi Ravi,
“What is also surprising, that there is now enough material on this site ( if one wishes to ignore what is on the Yahoo groups Jathistory site), to show that the Rajputs as a concept did not exist before the 10th century AD, but the Jats can be traced back to Rig Veda times( circa 2000 BCE).
.Why are the site owners, moderators,members content with putting forward erroneous information?”
Can you please prove that Jats can be traced back to Rg Vedic times?
What information on websites is erroneous?
Also, does Jat History have to ALL be glorious? Must it be a list of triumphs?
Thanks,

ravichaudhary
April 5th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Sunny Singh (Apr 05, 2004 12:16 p.m.):
Hi Ravi,
Also, does Jat History have to ALL be glorious? Must it be a list of triumphs?
Thanks,

No

It is not all glorious, There are plenty of events where certain Jats have acted out of self intrest and not for the interest of the whole community.

The 1857 war was is a good example, certain Jat families , especially some small princely states supported the British.


My point is given a choice, why not present a positive image, especialy when only afew sentences are being written.


It is like going for an interview and telling the interviewer all your negative points, and the wondering why you got left out.

Ravi

ajat
April 5th, 2004, 10:45 PM
Hi Ravi,

I certainly agree with being positive, but at the same time, I don’t think we should be lying to ourselves.

Best Wishes.

ravichaudhary
April 6th, 2004, 01:28 AM
Sunny Singh (Apr 05, 2004 01:15 p.m.):
Hi Ravi,

I certainly agree with being positive, but at the same time, I don’t think we should be lying to ourselves.

Best Wishes.


That is a serious comment and deserves to be addressed.

Where is the lie or even a touch of falsehood ?

Ravi

ajat
April 6th, 2004, 01:50 AM
Hi Ravi,

There does not seem to be lies per se – but conjectures, surmises based on similarities of names ONLY, are being passed off as facts.

Why don’t Jat website talk more about real documented Jat history – say of Jatwan, Suraj Mal, etc.?

I often read that you are disturbed by Nonica Datta becoming a leader of Jat History – how can you expect to gain serious academic support with such a generic approach – such as saying clan name Dhillon or Virk is mentioned in Rg Veda therefore, Jats were in India and wrote the Vedas??

What exactly do you want the next couple of generations of Jats to believe? What kind of identity are you forming?

Thanks.

ravichaudhary
April 6th, 2004, 03:00 AM
I am glad a detailed discussion is happening.


,
SUNNY> There does not seem to be lies per se – but conjectures,
surmises based on similarities of names ONLY, are being
passed off as facts.

Ravi> “Conjectures” is better.

All history is conjecture at some point or another. Some call this conjecture, construction or reconstruction.

Napoleon put it well” History is a bunch of lies, that all agree upon”

Then it gets into an academic text and gets taught as real history in schools and universities.

Never the less it is a reconstruction based on scanty data and the earlier we go, the more scanty is the data. This is something that I have often referred to.


Sunny >Why don't Jat website talk more about real documented
Jat history – say of Jatwan, Suraj Mal, etc.?


Ravi> You have to ask that question of the Site owner and the moderators, those who can edit and post on the home page.

In fairness, this is an amateur site, and just a beginning.
Taking that view, what has been achieved so far is not bad.

A base has been created from which progress can be made




Sunny> I often read that you are disturbed by Nonica Datta
becoming a leader of Jat History – how can you expect to
gain serious academic support with such a generic
approach –


Ravi>

My problem with the likes of Nonica Datta is that such persons are unmitigated Jat baiters with no saving grace at all.


They hold academic positions, which they obtained because their fathers or mothers were part of a Marxist/Muslim group, the JNU/Aligarh school of History which has dominated historical academics for the last 55 years. 99 % of their work is to show the Muslims or colonialist in a good light and everyone else in a poor light.

Thus to people like Ms Datta – The muslims who ruled Delhi and persecuted all and sundry, were a blessing, and India flourished under them,

These academic positions are used to denigrate our society all over the world.

To them the Jats are bandits and plunders, Guru Tegh Bahadur was a man of poor moral character, a criminal and a rapist.

I draw the line at such incorrect portrayal of our history and try to do something about it.

I hope others will also join me instead of sitting on the sidelines and thinking that what people like Nonica Datta do, do not affect them.

ajat
April 6th, 2004, 11:10 PM
Hi Ravi,

“I am glad a detailed discussion is happening.”

So am I.
“ “Conjectures” is better.”
Conjectures is better than what?
“All history is conjecture at some point or another. Some call this conjecture, construction or reconstruction.”
Facts and written accounts can be pieced together – but if there is lack of data, one must conjecture.
“Napoleon put it well” History is a bunch of lies, that all agree upon” “
I believe in facts, quality, critical thinking, and practicality - not consensus.
“Then it gets into an academic text and gets taught as real history in schools and universities.”
Yes.
“Never the less it is a reconstruction based on scanty data and the earlier we go, the more scanty is the data. This is something that I have often referred to.”
Yes the conjectures and surmises are required to fill in the gaps – but are the conjectures sound in filling in such large gaps? Are the conjectures themselves reasonable?
“You have to ask that question of the Site owner and the moderators, those who can edit and post on the home page.”
I am not attacking any particular website, but why not EMPHASIZE the history that means something rather than Jats fighting Timur in Tohana a thousand years ago – can we relate to those Jats and they way they lived a 1000 years ago? It may be true in history, but what bearing does that event hold on the present and future state of Jats? I fear it is “falling in love” with someone else’s culture. The battle of Jats against Timur is simply a concept – problem comes when we try to reify these concepts – just like the Massagetae being considered an entity like the Jats today; it doesn’t make sense.
“In fairness, this is an amateur site, and just a beginning.
Taking that view, what has been achieved so far is not bad.”
I am not criticizing this site.
“A base has been created from which progress can be made.”
I agree you have an audience – but why not empower them with the ability to think critically, rather than have them swallow blindly one person’s conjectures.
“My problem with the likes of Nonica Datta is that such persons are unmitigated Jat baiters with no saving grace at all.”
I am sure there is some reason Datta holds some respect in academic circles. Not all of what Datta wrote must be wrong? I am neither a fan of Datta myself, but do you suppose she has an agenda?
Or does she try to characterize and entire people based on the conditions of one geographical and social economic group of Jats?
“They hold academic positions, which they obtained because their fathers or mothers were part of a Marxist/Muslim group, the JNU/Aligarh school of History which has dominated historical academics for the last 55 years. 99 % of their work is to show the Muslims or colonialist in a good light and everyone else in a poor light.”
What does this have to do with Jats?
“Thus to people like Ms Datta – The muslims who ruled Delhi and persecuted all and sundry, were a blessing, and India flourished under them,”
This is a perspective.
“These academic positions are used to denigrate our society all over the world.”
Why does Datta single out Jats?
“To them the Jats are bandits and plunders, Guru Tegh Bahadur was a man of poor moral character, a criminal and a rapist.”
Jats can be perceived as bandits and dacoits from the perspective of a civil administrative group. Where does Datta say Guru Tegh Bahadur was a “rapist”?
“I draw the line at such incorrect portrayal of our history and try to do something about it.”
Ok, its is good to offer your perspective. The “barbarians speak” so to say – no offense, but this is what Datta may perceive your attempts to be. What will you say? What new evidences can you offer? What is new about your perspective? How will you use your evidence to prove that you are sincerely interested in Jat History rather than a tit for tat rebuttal to Datta?
“I hope others will also join me instead of sitting on the sidelines and thinking that what people like Nonica Datta do, do not affect them.”
So it doesn’t matter what to truth is, you are motivated soley by Datta?
Best Wishes,

ravichaudhary
April 7th, 2004, 12:49 AM
You are incorrect.

Dutta is not my motivation.

If you wish to support Datta, please lay out your arguments.

Ravi

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 03:48 AM
Hi Ravi,

I never said I supported Datta, read my previous comment, “I am neither a fan of Datta myself, but do you suppose she has an agenda?”

You often mention Datta in your posts – is it her style and approach or can you list her distortion of facts?

Come on Ravi, what do YOU believe about Jats? I am sure you can give me a birds eye view.

Thanks,