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ajat
April 5th, 2004, 09:38 PM
Hi Ravi,

I am beginning to doubt if King Porus was a Jat. Can you please convince me? Best Wishes,

ravichaudhary
April 6th, 2004, 01:30 AM
What are the reasons for your doubts ?

Who was Porus anyway ?

I am open

Ravi

ajat
April 6th, 2004, 01:42 AM
Hi Ravi,

I’m actually not sure who Porus was, other than probably a Panjabi. Can you provide reasons for your beliefs that he was a Jat? Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 6th, 2004, 02:14 AM
If by Punjabi you mean a resident of the Punjab I agree.

Punjab being the land of the five rivers.

But what was his actual name ?

Was it Porus ?


Or was " Porus " a Macedonian rendering of some other word, which is distorted and mutilated in greek texts and so comes down us, 2300 years later, translated and re translated as " Porus".

( The greeks/ macedonians and their English translaters are notorious for these distortions- the greeks did not have the letter "J" for example, substituing "G" instead )


More than one Porus is referred to, who were these other Poruses.?


I tend to agree with other historians that the word is not a personal " Porus' but a clan name,

" POR, or PAUR"

that is found today as Paur, Pauria, Pavar, Pawar in the Punjab, and in all Jat areas Rajasthan, UP, Haryana, MP etc .

more likely a Panchayat was called, when the invasion occurred and a leader from the Paur clan was elected leader.

and the clan name stuck in the macedonian recorders mind.

The local people combined and drove back the invaders.

Do not forget that there was a bitter war on.

It would not have been a time for a leisurely learning of the language and customs of the brave people of the Punjab.

Who were the local people ?

The Jats still dominate the Punjab east and west

Many clans moved South and East.

OTOH If I can be shown that "Porus" was not of a Jat Clan, then I will gladly change my view.


Ravi

ajat
April 6th, 2004, 03:49 AM
Hi Ravi,

“If by Punjabi you mean a resident of the Punjab I agree.
Punjab being the land of the five rivers.”
That’s precisely what I mean.
“But what was his actual name ?
Was it Porus ?”
As per Greek accounts yes.
“Or was " Porus " a Macedonian rendering of some other word, which is distorted and mutilated in greek texts and so comes down us, 2300 years later, translated and re translated as " Porus".”
Sure, it was the Macedonian rendering of the word. Just like Ambhi became Omphis, ??? became Porus.
“The greeks/ macedonians and their English translaters are notorious for these distortions- the greeks did not have the letter "J" for example, substituing "G" instead )”
What proof do you have of Greeks substituting “G” for “J”?
“More than one Porus is referred to, who were these other Poruses.?”
Don’t know, could be a title?
“I tend to agree with other historians that the word is not a personal " Porus' but a clan name,”
Why is it a clan name? Could it have been a personal name or title?
“" POR, or PAUR"

that is found today as Paur, Pauria, Pavar, Pawar in the Punjab, and in all Jat areas Rajasthan, UP, Haryana, MP etc.”
How does Porus become Por or Paur? I have never met a Paur, Pauria, Pavar, or Pawar in the area where Alexander fought Porus.
“more likely a Panchayat was called, when the invasion occurred and a leader from the Paur clan was elected leader.”
There is no evidence of this.
“and the clan name stuck in the macedonian recorders mind.”
Ok.
“The local people combined and drove back the invaders.
Do not forget that there was a bitter war on.”
I thought Porus was defeated?
“It would not have been a time for a leisurely learning of the language and customs of the brave people of the Punjab.
Who were the local people ?”
Don’t know – who were the local people of Panjab at that time?
“The Jats still dominate the Punjab east and west”
How do we know when the Jats were in Panjab? How do we know they were always a ruling class?
“Many clans moved South and East.”
Which clans were these? Why did they move? Who said they moved?
“If I can be shown that "Porus" was not of a Jat Clan, then I will gladly change my view.”
I think first you must prove that Porus was a Jat. You cannot by default assume he was a Jat. What facts lead you to such a conclusion?
That Porus came be made into Panwar? Regards,

anilkc
April 6th, 2004, 09:40 PM
I am not a deep into history, but this is what I remeber from my school times.
Porus indian name was Puru and his kingdom was called paurava.
Puru seems to be a common name in ancient India and can be found in many ancient tales including Mahabharat.
Or maybe its derived from poorva (east) as his kingdom was gateway to india (east from greece).
Porus is also a mythical figure in Greek Mythology.
Since so many places at that time were republics, its very likely that the greeks reference to porus actually ment the republic of paurava.

ajat
April 6th, 2004, 10:42 PM
Hi Anil,

“Puru seems to be a common name in ancient India and can be found in many ancient tales including Mahabharat.”

Sure I agree it could be a very common name.

Thanks,

ravichaudhary
April 7th, 2004, 01:18 AM
You need to investigate the etymology of word PORUS

"Porus " is what the Greeks understood, or so we are told , much as the British would call Mathura as "MUTTRA".

What did the Greeks hear, and what was recorded, and when was it recorded ?

Was it faithfully recorded as the original word ?

What Indian word do you think it was?

To me the " US" in PORUS is a suffix leaving behind "POR". or even " PORU".

You cannot start to derive Panwar or Paur, Pauria from PORUS.

"Porus " has to be the cart not the horse

You need to look at and see how PORUS came about.

The natural derivation is from, Paur, Por or Pur-u.

The 'ava' in Paurava is also a suffix, as is 'ia' in Pauria.

Over the centuries we can and do see the name evolve with a nasal 'n' being introduced.

The 'n" in Panwar, is like the " Maantra" in HIndi, a small dot , to signify a touch of an 'n'.

I can also see Parmar, coming from Paur

In the english script, some one not knowing the prononciation, would pronounce it as " Pan-war" or " Pan- var"

if you have other thoughts please advise.

Ravi

ravichaudhary
April 7th, 2004, 01:27 AM
clans who went south

Well look no further than the "Malls", who the greeks called the 'Malloi.'

who established the republics in Rajastan and gave their name to the Malwa province( now in Madhya Pradesh).

Malwa- or Mal- Wa.

again the suffix denotes " of the " Mals"", Malwa , land of the Mals, Mulls.

We do find the ' Malhi" clans in the punjab today, do we not ?

The 'mallas' are also attested in the 6th century BCE.

The Virks( vrkas) are found ruling in Mandsor, in Malwa circa 400 AD - Vishnuvardhana, Yashovardhan.

The header of the yahoo jat history is from an inscription of Vishnuvardhana.

Ravi

uday
April 7th, 2004, 01:42 AM
ek school main B.Ed ke Internship ke liye ek master ji aa gaya.. 2-3 hrs. ka lecture lenetha.. 6th standard ke bcahoo ko padha raha tha.. bola bachoo. iska matlab kya hai... tiny ( and he was addressing it as teenee ).. BTW principal ji bahar khade hokar us temp. teacher ( internship) ka mouyana kar rahe they..

prncipal ne aa kar kaha ... bhi aisa hai.. yeh teenee nahi hota.. ise tiny kehta hai..."

God knows what was in mind of that teacher ( teacher for 2-3 hrs.).. he says..Masterji main to isne tunnu kahoonga.. yeah Angrezi ke tharee ghar ki hai.."


Baki Lagey raho... :-)

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 03:33 AM
Hi Ravi,

“You need to investigate the etymology of word PORUS”

Why would we investigate the word “Porus” if you earlier said it was terribly transcribed?
“ "Porus " is what the Greeks understood, or so we are told , much as the British would call Mathura as "MUTTRA".”
That is assuming Porus was transcribed – it could be a translation.
“What did the Greeks hear, and what was recorded, and when was it recorded ?”
We don’t know – we can only conjecture.
“Was it faithfully recorded as the original word ?”
Maybe or maybe not. Can we pattern this transcription (if it is one) with other Greek transcriptions of Indian names?
“What Indian word do you think it was?”
Don’t know.
“To me the " US" in PORUS is a suffix leaving behind "POR". or even " PORU".”
Why is “us” a suffix? If it was transcribed then why add the suffix? Still if you can reduce Porus to Por, how do we know it was a surname?
“You cannot start to derive Panwar or Paur, Pauria from PORUS.”
OK.
“"Porus " has to be the cart not the horse”
Why? So if Porus can become Por, than Por can become Pauria and nasalised Panwar, right???
“You need to look at and see how PORUS came about. The natural derivation is from, Paur, Por or Pur-u.”
Natural derivation? What’s natural about it?
“The 'ava' in Paurava is also a suffix, as is 'ia' in Pauria.”
Where did Paurava come into the equation?
“Over the centuries we can and do see the name evolve with a nasal 'n' being introduced.”
Maybe. Like Xanthi and Iatii?
“The 'n" in Panwar, is like the " Maantra" in HIndi, a small dot , to signify a touch of an 'n'.”
Ok.
“I can also see Parmar, coming from Paur.”
I can’t.
“In the english script, some one not knowing the prononciation, would pronounce it as " Pan-war" or " Pan- var"”
So how again does Porus become Panwar or Pramara?

”if you have other thoughts please advise.”
Without more evidence about Raja Porus we will never know his “caste” background.
Regards,

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 03:39 AM
Hi Ravi,
“Well look no further than the "Malls", who the greeks called the 'Malloi.' who established the republics in Rajastan and gave their name to the Malwa province( now in Madhya Pradesh).”
Malwa- or Mal- Wa.
again the suffix denotes " of the " Mals"", Malwa , land of the Mals, Mulls.”
OK, what do the Malloi have to do with Jats?
“We do find the ' Malhi" clans in the punjab today, do we not ?”
How can we be sure the Malhi are the Malloi?
“The 'mallas' are also attested in the 6th century BCE.”
Are these the same people?
“The Virks( vrkas) are found ruling in Mandsor, in Malwa circa 400 AD - Vishnuvardhana, Yashovardhan.”
300 B.C. and 400 A.D. is a long time difference. For all we know the Virk could have come alongside Sakas and Parthians to India, and we know that they had been in India during the Kushan age.
Still don’t see how Porus was ancestor of Pauria, Paur, Panwars and the Pramaras.
Best Wishes,

ravichaudhary
April 7th, 2004, 04:02 AM
Again cart before horse,

Porus is not the root noun.

The root is Paur, or Por.

It is from that , that you can derive porus, but not the other way around.

Whether is a personal name or a clan name is another matter.

If is turns out to be a personal name, and has nothing to do with the Pauria clan of Jats , that is fine with me.

I will follow the evidence.

Ravi

ravichaudhary
April 7th, 2004, 04:05 AM
Raja does not necessarily maen a monarchial Raja.

Every householder was termed a Rajan or Raja

The Lichavvis has over 7,000 Rajas in there republican gatherings.

It is later that the term denoted a monarchial king

Ravi

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 04:10 AM
Hi Ravi,

“Again cart before horse,
Porus is not the root noun.
The root is Paur, or Por.”
You are contradicting yourself – first you say Porus was hopelessly transcribe and used and analogy between Mathura and Indo-English Muttra.
Then you assume that part of “Porus” was properly transcribe – they just added a suffix. Which one is it? If Greeks did such a bad job transcribing than why not toss that evidence out altogether?
“If is turns out to be a personal name, and has nothing to do with the Pauria clan of Jats , that is fine with me.
I will follow the evidence.”
What other evidence do you have about Porus?
Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 7th, 2004, 08:12 AM
Sunny S

we are going to stay with this, till we make progress.

Porus can come from Por,

Not the other way around.

I am eager to learn

Am I missing something ?

Ravi

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 08:39 PM
Hi Ravi,

“Am I missing something ?”

Yeah, how is Porus a Jat? Because he was tall, found in Panjab and his name can be massaged into a Jat clan name? You have to do better than that.

Regards,

anilkc
April 7th, 2004, 08:54 PM
We cannot say for sure that Porus was a Jat or not. What we can do is get some probability figures. e.g., there is 50% chances that he was a Jat.

To start with, I suggest that we go through an elimination process. We are pretty much sure of time duration when he lived. To some extend we know how the sociaty was devided and what groupes existed at that time. How each group lived and compare it to what porus did.
There are always exception and we can not for certain say if Porus was a jat, e.g, Hemu was a baniya but in history he was one of the best General.

Befor that I have Qs..
How are u defining a Jat?
Is the Jat of Porus time same as Jats of more recent times or today?
What other groupes existed then ?

ravichaudhary
April 7th, 2004, 09:44 PM
Please let us stay with the the etymology of Porus?

Can you derive Porus from Por, Paur ?

Once we get that over with, we can go into other issues ?

and then let us see is the people who tangled with the macedonians were Jats or not, separately.

At we will have a reasonable methodology of investigation.


Ravi

ajat
April 7th, 2004, 10:06 PM
Hi Guys,

Anil: Good Reasoning. We’ll get back to your questions – let’s follow Ravi’s line of reasoning.

Ravi: OK, you want to first establish an etymology of Porus.

“Can you derive Porus from Por, Paur ?”

Ok, step back a few steps.

First let’s look at “Porus.” Which Greek writers mention him? Arrian, Pliny, Plutarch, Curtius? Are they consistent with the name? Is the name translated or transcribed? How can we know? Can we look for patterns in other names they transcribed that may help to show if they consistently transcribed Indian names?

You have already mentioned your doubts about how the word Porus was transcribed. So if you believe if was poorly transcribed, why would you even pursue an etymology without additional information?

I myself have tried to prove that Yuezhi was a poor Sinitic transcription of Getae – and anyone who would normally look at these two words wouldn’t possible see a connection. But there are other means and methods to connect the two.

Have you looked into Greek grammar? Then we can get to Anil’s questions.

Take care,

ravichaudhary
April 8th, 2004, 07:46 AM
Why digress ?

Let us stay with the etymology of Porus

We will then have plenty of time for evrything else.

Ravi

ajat
April 12th, 2004, 10:38 PM
Hi Ravi,

How did my questions digress? Do you understand etymologies? Thanks,

ravichaudhary
April 13th, 2004, 01:54 AM
How do you derive 'Porus'

What is the Root

Ravi

ajat
April 13th, 2004, 04:19 AM
Hi Ravi,

I don’t know why someone would want to derive a word that was hopelessly transcribed? Unless you can prove it was not hopelessly transcribe.

Best Wishes,

ravichaudhary
April 13th, 2004, 06:35 AM
We have to start somewhere?

Now help us out.

What is the root of Porus ?

How is it derived ?

What in your view is the Indian equivalent ?

Why you think it is not the clan name " Paur", " "Por" " Puru" ?

If that is your view ?

A circular argument we can continue for ever

You may have a reason for trying to show that "Porus" was not of the clan " Por" and hence not a Jat.

In that case simply state your reasons, provide your evidence, and let us discuss them.

I am open to the end result

Ravi

ajat
April 15th, 2004, 03:48 AM
Hi Ravi,

You started your argument by saying “Porus” was poorly transcribed by Greeks:

“Or was " Porus " a Macedonian rendering of some other word, which is distorted and mutilated in greek texts and so comes down us, 2300 years later, translated and re translated as " Porus".
( The greeks/ macedonians and their English translaters are notorious for these distortions- the greeks did not have the letter "J" for example, substituing "G" instead )…….."Porus " is what the Greeks understood, or so we are told , much as the British would call Mathura as "MUTTRA".
What did the Greeks hear, and what was recorded, and when was it recorded ?
Was it faithfully recorded as the original word ?”

Now you are attempting to find an etymology – see the problem?

Regards,

ajat
April 19th, 2004, 09:18 PM
Hi Ravi,

Let’s ASSUME that the Greek faithfully recorded Por and added the suffix us – hence Porus. Okay now we have King Por. How is this fellow a Jat?

Thanks.

ravichaudhary
April 20th, 2004, 07:10 PM
My thoughts


on Methodology

Let us first distinguish if Por is a personal name , or a clan name.

So far the historical consensus is that it is Clan name, and I am quite happy to accept that.

Then the rest follows

If it is a personal name, and that issue must be examined for completeness,

Then what does the Personal name " Por" mean.

Most Indian names had meanings attached to them.

Hence the etymlogy becomes important.


If it is not a personal name, then we can accept the clan name as , Por, Paur, Puru.

What do think is it a perosnan name or not.

In fact I tink we should explore, why it should be a personal name, and if we cannot prove that, then the other must be true.

I wonder If Yaganvir Dahiya, the scholar of ancient Indian languages is still a member of this group, and whether he or someone else could also assist.

Ravi

ajat
April 20th, 2004, 09:07 PM
Hi Ravi,

Okay let’s move on – Porus is a clan name – it is Por. Now how is this Jat? Thanks

ravichaudhary
April 20th, 2004, 11:47 PM
Since Por is a Jat clan name , that would indicate that a member of that clan is a Jat.


Ravi

ajat
April 21st, 2004, 12:58 AM
Hi Ravi,

Do you expect people to believe that the small Por Jat clan name is in any way related to King Porus of Panjab some 2300 years before?

Does this mean that the Tut Jats are related to King Tutankhamun?

Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 21st, 2004, 02:30 AM
Good point

Is Tutankhaman a Jat clan name ?

Not that I know?

Yet we can and do find the Por, Puar, Clans( Gotras) In Northern India even today?

Clans( Gotra) are handed down from father to son , down the generations.

The Jats take Gotra/Clan very seriously.

That would assure a continuity of the name.

2300 years would be approx 92 generations.

Is that too long a thread to assure a continuity ?


Not in my view, Unless someone suggests that a gotra or clan name must die out mid stream.

Even the Solanki ( Ahlawat) clan in Haryana can be traced back direct lineage to over 1000 years, so why should another 1000 or 1300 years be out of the question?.

Then why can a Jat's Gotra ( Clan) lineage not be acceptable ?

Or Por, be back to 300 BCE ?

I would say that not only the possibility, but the probablity is very high.

It is just that historians have not emphasized up this point, and the Jats themsleves never took much interest!

If you had been taught in school that Porus was of a Jat clan, you would have never questioned it ?

Ravi

ajat
April 21st, 2004, 03:32 AM
Hi Ravi,
“Yet we can and do find the Por, Puar, Clans( Gotras) In Northern India even today?”
We don’t find it in the area of question – Raja Porus’s Kingdom. Surely if it were to continue wouldn’t that be the first place to look?
“Clans( Gotra) are handed down from father to son , down the generations.”
Many are invented along the way. How can you prove Por is not a recent Jat clan name – how many Por Jats are there? Where are the located?
“The Jats take Gotra/Clan very seriously.”
So do Rajputs and Brahmins.
“That would assure a continuity of the name.”
Not really – Out of Bhatti stock came Sidhus, out of Sidhus came Brars.

”2300 years would be approx 92 generations.”
Assuming 25 years a generation. 92 generations is a terribly long time. Panjabi Jats can rarely trace past 18 generations and you’re hoping for 92. Tell what bearing a person 92 generations back has to do with present Jats?
“Is that too long a thread to assure a continuity ?”
That’s a really long time.
“Not in my view, Unless someone suggests that a gotra or clan name must die out mid stream.”
I’m sure gotras can be absorbed. Unless you’re gonna tell me that early on Por’s jumped ship and became another clan.
“Even the Solanki ( Ahlawat) clan in Haryana can be traced back direct lineage to over 1000 years, so why should another 1000 or 1300 years be out of the question?. “
To Agnikula Rajputs? How many Solanki Jats/Rajputs are there and how many Pors? Solankis have been around for say 1000 years, and Pors 2300 using simple math would everyone in the Northwest be a Por?
“Then why can a Jat's Gotra ( Clan) lineage not be acceptable ?”
You’re working backwards – first prove Porus was a Jat – the determine his clan name.
“I would say that not only the possibility, but the probablity is very high.”
Why? Many historians would argue Jats weren’t even IN India at this time.
“It is just that historians have not emphasized up this point, and the Jats themsleves never took much interest!”
Maybe Porus wasn’t a Jat.
“If you had been taught in school that Porus was of a Jat clan, you would have never questioned it ?”
Sure I would.
Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 21st, 2004, 04:21 AM
None the less the sidhus would be part of the Bhatti Gotra.

There are still Bhattis around

Similarly for Por

There could be sub gotras started off.

In the case of the Solanki Ahlawat, Brehban, Joon, got started as sub Gotras, but Solanki is still there,

and, yes, the Georgraphical location can change.

We find the Mall-as( Mull-s) migrating to Rajastan and Madya Pradesh, and giving their name to the Malwa, Mal-va province

Besides I do not know that Por, Paur, Puru is not found in the Punjab,.

Panwar, Panhwar certainly is found in the Sindh.

Ravi

ravichaudhary
April 21st, 2004, 05:06 AM
Sunny Singh (Apr 20, 2004 06:02 p.m.):

”2300 years would be approx 92 generations.”
Assuming 25 years a generation. 92 generations is a terribly long time. Panjabi Jats can rarely trace past 18 generations and you’re hoping for 92. Tell what bearing a person 92 generations back has to do with present Jats?


**********

Response>> It has a lot,

There will be a blood lineage
***************
“Is that too long a thread to assure a continuity ?”
That’s a really long time.
“Not in my view, Unless someone suggests that a gotra or clan name must die out mid stream.”
I’m sure gotras can be absorbed.


Unless you’re gonna tell me that early on Por’s jumped ship and became another clan.

*************

Response >>A Gotra cannot be absorbed, a New Gotra can be started,

The Jat custom will not allow him to take on another's Gotra when he has his own.

*******************


“Even the Solanki ( Ahlawat) clan in Haryana can be traced back direct lineage to over 1000 years, so why should another 1000 or 1300 years be out of the question?. “

To Agnikula Rajputs? How many Solanki Jats/Rajputs are there and how many Pors?


*************

Rajputs, Agnikula or not are nor part of discussion.


Solankis have been around for say 1000 years, and Pors 2300 using simple math would everyone in the Northwest be a Por?

*********
Response >
No,
I said the Solanki's ( of Haryana) can trace their Gotra back at least a Thousand years.

Source Genealogical list in Sonepat.

That is just to show how seriously the Jats treat their lineage. It was and is very important for marraige relationships

*******************
“Then why can a Jat's Gotra ( Clan) lineage not be acceptable ?”
You’re working backwards – first prove Porus was a Jat – the determine his clan name.

Response >

I am working backwards and forwards




Ravii>“I would say that not only the possibility, but the probablity is very high.”



Sunny> Why? Many historians would argue Jats
weren’t even IN India at this time.

Ravi> Important, what are these Historians evidence for that claim.

**************
Ravi> “It is just that historians have not emphasized up this point, and the Jats themsleves never took much interest!”

Sunny>Maybe Porus wasn’t a Jat.


Ravi>

Anything is possibley, Maybe he was an alien from Outerspace.

What is the probability of that ?

What is the probability of him not being a Jat ?

**************
Ravi> “If you had been taught in school that Porus was of a Jat clan, you would have never questioned it ?”

Sunny> Sure I would.

Ravi> Why would you question it ???

Ravi


Regards,

ajat
April 22nd, 2004, 08:43 PM
Hi Ravi,
“Similarly for Por
There could be sub gotras started off.”
Nonsense – prove it.
“and, yes, the Georgraphical location can change.
We find the Mall-as( Mull-s) migrating to Rajastan and Madya Pradesh, and giving their name to the Malwa, Mal-va province”
What does this have to do with Pors?
“Besides I do not know that Por, Paur, Puru is not found in the Punjab,.
Panwar, Panhwar certainly is found in the Sindh.”
What does Panwar have to do with Por?
Other post:
“Response>> It has a lot,
There will be a blood lineage”
You still haven’t proved a link – and now you’re thinking “blood lineage”.
“Response >>A Gotra cannot be absorbed, a New Gotra can be started,
The Jat custom will not allow him to take on another's Gotra when he has his own.”
Sure one can – sometimes a ghar-jawai will take the gotra of his father-in-law.
“Rajputs, Agnikula or not are nor part of discussion.”
Why not? Can’t handle that your own lineage takes you back to barbarian White Huns?
“No,
I said the Solanki's ( of Haryana) can trace their Gotra back at least a Thousand years.
Source Genealogical list in Sonepat.
That is just to show how seriously the Jats treat their lineage. It was and is very important for marraige relationships”
So the Solankis can trace their links back to a Rajput – so can the Gypsies Gaddis in Panjab – their last name is Chauhan.
“I am working backwards and forwards”
You are trying desperately and take what information suits you.
“Ravi> Important, what are these Historians evidence for that claim.”
I thought most historians believe the Jats were descended from Massagetae, or Yuezhi, or White Huns.
“Anything is possibley, Maybe he was an alien from Outerspace.”
Now you are being silly.
“What is the probability of that ?”
Still a possibility.
“What is the probability of him not being a Jat ?”
What is the probability of him being a Jat?
“Why would you question it.”
Because – there is NOT enough information to form a competent conclusion – unless you know something that nobody else does.
Regards,

ravichaudhary
April 23rd, 2004, 01:02 AM
1) Subgotras:
i,
“Similarly for Por
There could be sub gotras started off.”
Nonsense – prove it.

Response> What is to prove.

You have already demonstrates\d that the Brar Jats emerged from the Sidhus who emerged from the Bhattis.

The same with sub gotras of the POR, PAUR, PURU




2) Ravi>“and, yes, the Georgraphical location can change.
We find the Mall-as( Mull-s) migrating to Rajastan and Madya Pradesh, and giving their name to the Malwa, Mal-va province”
Sunny>What does this have to do with Pors?

Ravi> It shows that the Mall Jats did stay staic in the Punjab.

That variants of Por, are found all over the Sindh, Rajasthan, Maharastra, Gujarat, UP, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh, and Punjab

As Paur, Pauria, Pawar, Panwar, Panhwar

Jas clans migrated


3) Sunny >What does Panwar have to do with Por?

Panwar is simply Pawar, with a nasalized “n” sound.



4. Ravi>Gotra cannot be absorbed, a New Gotra can be started,
The Jat custom will not allow him to take on another's Gotra when he has his own.”

Sunny>Sure one can – sometimes a ghar-jawai will take the gotra of his father-in-law.

Ravi> That is impossible. The Jats are not a Matriarchal society

5. “Rajputs, Agnikula or not are nor part of discussion.”
Why not? Can’t handle that your own lineage takes you back to barbarian White Huns?

Ravi>> That is no problem, The Huns are Jats anyway,. Besides I do not think they were Barbaric.


6. Ravi> “No,
I said the Solanki's ( of Haryana) can trace their Gotra back at least a Thousand years.

Sunny>So the Solankis can trace their links back to a Rajput – so can the Gypsies Gaddis in Panjab – their last name is Chauhan.


Ravi>> No so, the term rajput had not even been invented, so how could the Jats emanate from the rajputs.

I know some Families, in last few centuries, start to claim Rajput lineage, like the Sidhu Jats of Patiala, but that is their inferiority complex.

The Solanki Jats do not claim to be descendants of some Rajput.

Of the chauhan gypsies, no clue. Chauhan is also a Jat Gotra.




“Ravi> Important, what are these Historians evidence for that claim.”

Sunny >>I thought most historians believe the Jats were descended from Massagetae, or Yuezhi, or White Huns.

Ravi>> Could it also be that the people yu name are descended from the Jats and not the other way around??


Porus as an alien:

“Anything is possibley, Maybe he was an alien from Outerspace.”
Now you are being silly.
“What is the probability of that ?”
Still a possibility.

Ravi> any thing is possible, but probability is also relevant.

On Porus being a Jat


Ravi>“What is the probability of him not being a Jat ?”
Sunny>What is the probability of him being a Jat?
Ravi>“Why would you question it.”
Sunny>Because – there is NOT enough information to form a competent conclusion – unless you know something that nobody else does.

Ravi> But people are drawing conclusions and teaching them in our schools, universities.


I would be perfectly happy if our Jat version was also taught, but it is not taught.

So It becomes important, to gather enough evidence, where a reasonable case can be made for our view, and then to push it.

Do we have evidence for a reasonable case or no ?

I think we do,

But I am glad for this discussion, for the more it is debated amongst us, the more holes in the theory can be eliminated.

Regards,

Ravi

ajat
April 23rd, 2004, 01:24 AM
Hi Ravi,
“You have already demonstrates\d that the Brar Jats emerged from the Sidhus who emerged from the Bhattis.”
I can state this because I have seen the genealogies of Sidhu-Brars.
“The same with sub gotras of the POR, PAUR, PURU”
Do you have proof? Sure you can state this but prove it.
“It shows that the Mall Jats did stay staic in the Punjab.”
Okay, let’s assume Malhis are descended from the Malloi, then why don’t we have Por in Panjab?
“That variants of Por, are found all over the Sindh, Rajasthan, Maharastra, Gujarat, UP, Haryana, Madhya Pradesh, and Punjab
As Paur, Pauria, Pawar, Panwar, Panhwar
Jas clans migrated”
Once again I have not seen these names in Panjab – nor can you say all these names have the same origin.
“Panwar is simply Pawar, with a nasalized “n” sound.”
That is was Hukam Singh says.
“Ravi> That is impossible. The Jats are not a Matriarchal society”
I have seen this first hand!
“Ravi>> That is no problem, The Huns are Jats anyway,. Besides I do not think they were Barbaric.”
How are the Huns – Jats?
“Ravi>> No so, the term rajput had not even been invented, so how could the Jats emanate from the rajputs.”
My point being that Gaddis or even Chamar claim royal descent – what proof to Solanki Jats have?
“I know some Families, in last few centuries, start to claim Rajput lineage, like the Sidhu Jats of Patiala, but that is their inferiority complex.”
Not really it is admitted by the Bhattis Rajputs of that area.
“The Solanki Jats do not claim to be descendants of some Rajput.”
They don’t. Are the Kasab or Shiv gotri?
Of the chauhan gypsies, no clue. Chauhan is also a Jat Gotra.
Jat Sikhs don’t consider Chauhan part of their blood.
“Ravi>> Could it also be that the people yu name are descended from the Jats and not the other way around??”
Good point this is a possibility.
“I would be perfectly happy if our Jat version was also taught, but it is not taught.”
Don’t you feel it is a sin to pass of as fact, a theory that has so many holes in it?

“So It becomes important, to gather enough evidence, where a reasonable case can be made for our view, and then to push it.”
What reasonable case do you have?
“Do we have evidence for a reasonable case or no ?”
Unless you know something that I don’t – I am not sure.
“But I am glad for this discussion, for the more it is debated amongst us, the more holes in the theory can be eliminated.”
If you think I am critical watch what the experts will do.
I don’t want the next generations of Jat scholars not being taken seriously for mistakes that we made.
Regards,

chhoraharyanada
September 27th, 2004, 03:55 AM
Hi,

Why have you guys stopped this discussion?

So whats the conclusion? Is Porus a Jat or no?

RAM RAM.

ajat
October 1st, 2004, 02:25 AM
Hi Ramandeep,

All we can know for sure was that Porus was a Panjabi – a Pentopotamian. He may or may not have been a Jat.

Best Wishes,

chhoraharyanada
October 5th, 2004, 10:38 PM
What about his army of Malhi Jats?

(Malli of Multan)

Didnt they give Sikander a real, tough fight??

Correct me if I have got something wrong ...

ajat
October 5th, 2004, 11:18 PM
Hi Raman,

We don’t even know if the Malloi of Multan were the same as present day Malhi Jats. I would be more inclined to believe that Alexander had Jat fighting FOR him than AGAINST him!

Regards,

chhoraharyanada
October 6th, 2004, 01:30 AM
Hi Sunny,

Why would you say fighting for him rather than against?
Didnt he have thousands upon thousands of Greek warriors with him (as the stories etc) go?

Unrelated: Isnt there a movie about to be released about Alexander The Great?

ravichaudhary
October 6th, 2004, 07:32 AM
Ramandeep (Oct 05, 2004 04:00 p.m.):
Hi Sunny,

Why would you say fighting for him rather than against?

Good question

ajat
October 8th, 2004, 01:21 AM
Hi Raman,

We know Alexander always desired to have fresh troops from regions he conquered and often relieve his former officers to become Satraps or governor of his newly conquered territory. So before Sikandar entered the Panjab, he waged war against the Central Asians, in fact, he married a Sogdianian gal name Roxanne – the most beautiful gal he had ever seen! There too he picked up many fresh troops and took them with him on his Indian campaign - the ancient writer Arrian documents, “Alexander himself selected the special squadron the companions,…and the cavalry from Bactria and Sogdiana, the Scythian horsemen [Massagetae], with the Dahae, mounted archers…”.

Best Wishes,

d1e_slow55
October 23rd, 2004, 02:24 AM
“Ravi> That is impossible. The Jats are not a Matriarchal society”
I have seen this first hand!-Sunny Singh
^
^
I beleive this is in reference to the man taking the father in laws surname.

woahhhhh slow down there, Sunny I have personally lived in Ludhiana for 4 years and have been going for atleast 3-4 months every year since I was 4 years old.....I have never ever ever ever EVERRRRRR even heard of something like this, its simply not possible, I have asked many many Jatts about this even seeyanas from Punjab and around here in Canada, they could not beleive it what so ever...

ajat
October 25th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Hi Sunny Sran,

Have you heard of the term Ghar Jawai? Regards,