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varuntomar
July 4th, 2004, 05:28 PM
well i enjoy the discussions that go on here and i carry a great pride in being a jat and jat traditions and history but cud we lok at other communities like rajputs and brahmins with a litle less hatred.....coz we don't need history to prove our superiority........jat boys are braver, livelier, stronger, more handome, more humane and these are the facts enough that we are superior to others who inhabit this land with us...........
any takers??????????

scsheorayan
July 5th, 2004, 07:50 AM
When does a person start praising himself ? When no one else does. If you have high self esteem there is no need for approval from others. The very act of seeking approval from others indicates lack of self confidence. What happened to old fashioned modesty? If you have a good product there is no need to advertise.

varuntomar
July 9th, 2004, 08:38 PM
no disrespect mean mr shubha chand ji.....perhaps u missed the point......i only said that we don't need to hate other communities but concentrate on our strengths.....and if my writing on this forum rubbed u in a wrong way i can't possibly help it.......this is an open forum for all jats.......and u have to accomodate differences of opinions......as far as self praise is concerned........i didn't indulge in self praise.......the qualities that i mentioned are inherent in jats........and i don't consider it a wrong thing to carry pride in one's community and heritage........i come from a village and carrying pride in oneself is part of the tradition that most of us inherit from out elders.......sometimes that self pride borders on arrogance........in tht acse we need to think .........that's why i mentioned we should not lok like rajput or bahman baiters

scsheorayan
July 10th, 2004, 08:09 AM
Thanks Varun,
It is all a matter of opinion. You have not offended me in any way. The reason for my posting was just to highlight a point that self praise is not favoured in the culture in which I was raised and there is a good reason for it. Incidentally I too am from a village but ofcourse one village can be different from other village and the same village changes over time.

There are two aspects of any culture one which changes with time e.g. marriages used to be 3 days long in our time but now they are only 3 hours long. However the other aspect which is eternal and does not change with time e.g. love for your family.

I believe self praise is not the same as self esteem and self confidence. High self esteem and self respect are admirable qualities both of which are respected in all cultures. People go to great lengths to develop these qualities. But self praise is not to be encouraged because the cause for self praise is essentially low self esteem. It may make you feel better for a short period but acts as a poison if you really want to have high self esteem. In the long run it is the self esteem which will guide you to happy life.

That is just my opinion but it may be dated in to-day's fast society where people need to be appreciated profusely just to servive emotionally. Jats are known for their simplicity and strength and not for their verbocity. Please don't mind if you don't agree with my opinion and keep an open mind for other's ideas which don't support your views. I will try the same.

varuntomar
July 10th, 2004, 12:43 PM
but i fail to understand one thing......where did i indulge in self praise??????????????

rahul_malik23
July 10th, 2004, 03:42 PM
Varun,

Your lines from from original post "jat boys are braver, livelier, stronger, more handome, more humane and these are the facts enough that we are superior to others who inhabit this land with us..........."

Although you are praising whole jat race, but being a part of the same entity, it sounds more like self praise. May be this was not your intention.

As you mentioned that your main point was "we need not hate other communities". Offcourse we need not.
But I don't think that anybody hate any particular community/race because they are braver, livelier, stronger, more handome, more humane etc. etc.
So bringing these point to support your main point can definately cause some confusion.

One more from your second post "u have to accomodate differences of opinions".

regards,
Rahul



Varun Tomar (Jul 10, 2004 03:13 a.m.):
but i fail to understand one thing......where did i indulge in self praise??????????????

rksehrawat
July 10th, 2004, 04:15 PM
I entirely agree with Shuba Chandji, judging oneself or one's claim of possessing certain qualitieis is not proper, the qualities in a person or a race are good not only if they are praised and acknowledged by others but also if they are of use to the community and the nation.

varuntomar
July 10th, 2004, 06:01 PM
i guess this is being blown out of proportions.....i never intended to indulge in self praise........and if u have any doubts over my statement please visit any college in delhi or western up my assertions will be vindicated.......and watever i said of the jat qualities are accepted by all......though other communities grudgingly accept that.........but they do accept that........as far as my statement that we need not hate any other communities like rajputs and brahmans......i said that because from some posts here i cud or for that matter anybody else cud make out that people did say things about those communities which show them in poor light......many members here talk about jat- rajput rivalry........i have never seen or experienced that..........infact the place i come from we don't care two hoots about them......that may not be a very good thing either..........and we don't need to prove anything to anyone.........and taking pride in somebodies heritage is not self praise..........if it is everyone of us is guilty here.........and if somebody distorts some statement only to prove a point that can at best speak of his insecurities........i am not an expert on these things.........but as a member of this site i have a right to express my views.........criticism is welcome but that shud be in fair spirit not fo rthe sake of criticising........
and as far as a member's statement is concerned that one who has insecurities indulges in self praise i wud say that people do praise their culture and comunities.......... delhi has this overdose of punjabi culture and the punjabi's are benefitting by it.........i wud like to cite a simple example when u perform bad in an exam ur parents soothe u by saying that u are good enough or even the best , so apply urself and perform better the next time..........when we live ina typical up village say baoli or kishanpur baral nobody thinks that community a, b, c is better than us.......they may be doing well in certain areas but we wud nevr want to trade places with them.........and we believe that we are the best..........it is that spirit only which produces shooters of international calibre from a nondescript village like johri without any support from anywhere........it is this spirit that makes u do wat u want to do..........i won't be surprised if i draw falk from somebody on this forum about carrying a certain pride about johri's achievemnets.......they can again say that i have insecurities that's why i take pride in achievements of people of my comunity.........i don't wasnt to counter that..........people are free to form opinions.........but they don't have the right to pass judgements..........u can never pass a judgement on somebody u don't even know on the basis of a statement.........even though u may be as talented as sigmund freud..........passing judgements without any solid reasons and rational thinking only speaks of ur insecurities and prejudices................and difference of opinions shud be accomodated........but please somebody tell me wat do we do when people make statements full of prejudices...........
rahul bhai may be i phrased my post in a manner that gave room to this kind of reaction.......
regards
Varun Tomar

sonalisingh
July 10th, 2004, 10:14 PM
What a screwed up thread ! The guy started with something and everyone else twisted it to mean something else. Sorry Varun, your post was hijacked.

Anyways, since everyone is offering opinions, I might as well offer mine.

Those of us who have an issue with self praise need to take their heads out of the cow's dung hole and think beyond the age old retro desi outlook. In the modern world marketing is more important than the product. And if the product too is good then its "Wah ! Wah !". So, keep up the self praise ! Thump your chests and let the world know who you are. It's all about branding. If the qualities mentioned are what we want to be recognized for, then these should be advertised as often as possible.

Of course, this is not to say that there should be no substance behind the brand. The product needs to be good too, and ideally should match the advertising. But hey, even if it matches half way, there will still be plenty of buyers.

Keep at it boys ! And while at it don't forget to praise the Jatnis ! :-)

sonalisingh
July 10th, 2004, 10:18 PM
Ooops. Hit the refresh button. Posted this twice. This jatni is new at the game.

varuntomar
July 11th, 2004, 01:58 AM
to quote from webster's online jat dictionary(source jatland.com)

Jat: A handsome, brave, honest, hard working, stubborn, easily provoked, male of robust physique, found in Haryana, Paar, and dilli suba
Jatni: A female form of the above - only more beautiful... also known as lugaai

Mr. shubha chand ji it seems i m not the only one who indulges in self-praise here.....i guess acording to u many of us jats who believe in the definition above suffer from some complex............
no offence meant......
regards
Varun Tomar

ps: sonali thanks for some straight thinking there, refer to the dictionary jatni's are not ignored of course

mbamal
July 11th, 2004, 04:31 AM
A bit of self-praise never hurts anybody!

scsheorayan
July 11th, 2004, 01:32 PM
Dear Varun, Sonali and other marketers of Jat community. Please do advertise by all means if that is what you feel is right thing to do. It reminds me of an age old saying
"seekh ba ko deejiye ja ko seekh Suhai !
Seekh dee bhul bandra ko, ghar baya ko jai."

I will close topic from my side.

Thank you for your patience and Good luck you advertisers. make sure you have your 5 Ps right.

varuntomar
July 11th, 2004, 07:23 PM
dear shubha chand ji wat is the meaning of that saying.......i am ready to learn
regards
Varun Tomar

rkumar
July 11th, 2004, 07:55 PM
Shubha Chand Sheorayan (Jul 11, 2004 04:02 a.m.):
Dear Varun, Sonali and other marketers of Jat community. Please do advertise by all means if that is what you feel is right thing to do. It reminds me of an age old saying
"seekh ba ko deejiye ja ko seekh Suhai !
Seekh dee bhul bandra ko, ghar baya ko jai."

I will close topic from my side.

Thank you for your patience and Good luck you advertisers. make sure you have your 5 Ps right.

well said...and in English they say...

''Never give advice as fools never take it and intelligent ones never need it''
....hahahaha

Rajendra

shokeen123
July 11th, 2004, 08:44 PM
Hello People! Just a little clarification here…

Varun, you have genuine intentions, and legitimate curiosity but poor choice of words in expressing your zeal. Let us review your own contradicting statements in two different postings:

An overjealous participant:

“well i enjoy the discussions that go on here and i carry a great pride in being a jat and jat traditions and history but cud we lok at other communities like rajputs and brahmins with a litle less hatred.....coz we don't need history to prove our superiority........jat boys are braver, livelier, stronger, more handome, more humane and these are the facts enough that we are superior to others who inhabit this land with us...........”

“We don’t need history to prove our superiority.”

And then in the same breath you go on to say:

“Could anyone help me with history of Tomar Jats.” (See below)

Tomar Jats:

“cud anyone help me with the history of tomar jats. the village elders wud have us believe that tomar jats were the rulers of delhi, i have started doubting that as none of the posts in this section mention that. another fact that bothers me is how cud this site leave tomar jats in obscurity given the fact that they are the largest khap and weild considerable clout in western u.p.”

Why for the sake of other communities (Brahmins, Rajputs) would you be color blind and yet seek to prove history of superiority for another subset (Tomar Jats) of a population?

As for the Jat dictionary the definition is merely a generic description of the Jat traits in general. I guess for the context of discussion here I could have been more magnanimous but even so it does not nearly equate self-praise (I have listed the flaws too) and falls short of claim to supremacy as implied in your statement:

“And these are the facts enough that we are superior to others who inhabit this land with us.”

Who is to say who is superior of the human race? Greatness of the human character lies in one’s deeds and not in power of world domination. No one remembers Adolf Hitler with reverence for winning power and claiming supremacy over Jews. It is alright to be overzealous with pride provided we collectively as Jats (using those traits) have eliminated illiteracy, ignorance, unemployment, dowry, alcoholism, female fetocide and many more evils from our community.

ravichaudhary
July 12th, 2004, 02:39 AM
If people wish to explore their past why stop them ?

In Indian history texts the Tomars are supposed to have ruled many areas.

Well ruled may not be a correct word, for we are not entirely sure of the system of governing- was it the panchayat, the Sarv Khap??

That is a valid area for research.

The other equally valid areas are the rest of Jat history and culture- who we were, who we are, and how we got here, and where we go from here.

People have to make a start somewhere, and Varun's starting point as good as any other.

He is wondering about his clans' past.

Someone studying jat history also wonders why Indian History texts are so devoid of Jat material.


Should we wait untill all the problems of our Jat society are resolved before we enquire into our past, present and future ?

We all agree Varun' efforts are not ill intentioned.

He is asking for help


I hope I do no create a controversy, but I for one will wholeheartedly, support Varun, and others efforts to research other past, whatever their starting point is,

and yes, to take pride in their ancestors achievements, so that they can follow role models for today and tomorrow.

We have a rich past, but most of us do not know that


I hope many more get stricken with this curiousity virus


Ravi Chaudhary

varuntomar
July 12th, 2004, 04:12 AM
Ms Sujata
I agree I might have committed the error of choosing poor words. Let me answer few of the questions raised by you. My different posts may seem to show some contradictions as pointed by you but if you analyse carefully they may not be contradictions at all. In my post titled tomar jats I said I was curious to know the history of my clan. I gave some reference why I was led to believe that tomar jats ruled delhi in the past. I saw a jat mahasabha poster claiming one dileram tomar(as the founder of delhi) and anangpal tomar as jats. Many tomar jats in and around my village believe that it was tomar jats who ruled delhi. When I never found mentions of jats as rulers in the olden times in the history text books except one map where they show various kingdoms and mention jats in the map only and no reference is given to the jats in the text( while various other castes like rajputs are given more than ample space)you definitely feel shocked.

When you have been fed on the legends of the likes of Maharana Pratap and they are only shown as cheiftains in the history who fought some guerilla battles with Akbar and Akbar's move of marrying rajput princess is shown as a very noble and secular move one feels as if something is wrong somewhere.
By all the historians Akbar was shown to be very secular and accomodating of hindus. They mentioned a certain mansabdari system. Then they went on to mention that raja Man Singh brother of Jodhabai commanded a mansab of 5000 horses you are led to believe that Akbar was really a great king. But if we analyse a little more carefully we find that there were many muslim mansabdars in his court who commanded a cavalry of more than 5000. So cud it be that Man Singh was a mere mercinary in Akbar's scheme of things who was used to fight his own brothers like Rana Pratap to save his kingdom. The text books teach us that mughals did a great service to India with their art and everything but infact they did a little more than pushing us in dark ages.

Entire Indian history makes you sick and the manner in which it is presented is really revolting. I never found any mention of Raja Gokul of tilpat in any of my text books and came to know about him on this forum only. But they did mention beheading of guru Teghbahadur. Now when I don't have to study history to just score marks I can afford to be more inquisitve and question the things that had been mentioned.

On this forum i found members who are really doing some serious research on Jat history so my asking for somebody's help to enlighten me on my clan's history was not a bad thing to do. It was never my intention to prove superiority of any subset( as u said tomar jats) to anyone. Infact tomars ( irrespective of the fact they were jats or rajputs) were defeated by chauhans. Even if my ancestors were people who were nomads and only indulged in pastoral actvities I wud be equally proud of them as i wud be in the case of their ruling whole of europe. You love your father the same irrespective of the fact if he were a farmer or head of some state.

Ma'm I ve met people in my life who ask me questions who jats are? and then u answer them that we are a caste that is found in western up , haryana and rajasthan whose primary occupations are agriculture and warfare people are still clueless. then they ask you really uncomfortable questions like are jats same as rajputs, then u tell them no. The result is whole of India knows about rajputs and many still don't have any clue about jats. These things are really uncomfortable to experience.

I will go on to say as i have stayed in boarding schools and hostels since class sixth that it has been mainly jat students who are really dominant in their classes and that is because of their qualities and not because of flocking together because it is a very sad fact that i encountered very few of them wherever i went and in most of the cases every one of them stood apart as an individual. my seniors had those skills, they helped me and encouraged me to do the same. So i definitely carried a certain pride in my being a jat. It was same story in my village, in the towns near to it and even in a city like delhi where so many communities live together.

I agree with you that no community is superior to the other. It should be so but is it really so. Because of the virtue of their education brahmins projected them to be the superior of them all. But if u go to a typical jat village u will find wat their status is. Things may be different in different parts but that is wat i saw in my village, area so my belief system comes from there. Brahmins proved their superiority by their skill with the written word, the rajputs with their diplomacy( it's a fact they will never fight you on your face but will always conspire against you if they envy you) like giving their daughters to the mughals and saving their riyasats. But the jat peasant proved his superiority by his hard work, not giving up and not being afraid of anyone even gods.( to quote from mirza jatt "meri baki ta darey farishtey tey jatt tey dare khuda" )

The principle of equality of all human beings is very good but it will take generations before it is really practiced. It might happen that after a few years there may not be caste rivalries but there may be other sort of clashes capitalism- comunism, rich -poor. So differences are here to stay and we have to learn to live with them. I might appear to be a fool to some as it was shown by a saying but it doesn't matter i can't change my belief system because some people don't like the way i think.

I have a reason to believe that my race is superior though i still believe that we don't need to hate other communities for anything. Now many of us are educated we can really do something more than lip service. One of the ways to start with cud be helping us get our due in the history. I and our coming generations will really be grateful to people like Mr. Ravi Chaudhary if their efforts yield some results.


I hope there comes a day when I don't have to explain to some people wat jats are.

Ma'm education is the only answer to some of your concerns about the evils that plague our society.

To make my stand clear i assert that there is no contradiction in my statements. I believe that in certain ways we are a lot better than other communities. But i don't hate them but yes i can learn to live my own community and so can others.

regards

Varun Tomar

ravichaudhary
July 12th, 2004, 04:48 AM
Dear Varun

The person who deserves compliments on this list is Dharampal Dudhee Sahib,not me.He has done much original research.

Mine has been only a very small effort, to cut and paste or translate some material, as I get time.

That is fairly easy to do, and I hope many others get this virus, and join in.

Especially those who can translate from Hindi to English.

many hands make light work

ravi

shobhitdeshwal
July 13th, 2004, 01:37 PM
I definitely agree with Varun, Sonali and Ravi Chaudhary ji. Jat boys are really good vis a vis others. Self praise can only come if u really have something to talk about. And a little self praise doesn't harm anyone as pointed by mandeep.
I hope to keep contributing more to this forum as and when i get time.
Regards
Shobhit Deshwal

lrburdak
July 15th, 2004, 08:10 PM
Dear Varun,
I had earlier posted about TOMARS. Here is some thing useful for you !!!
.................................................. ..........
Tomar Gotra in India is found in Jats, Rajputs and gurjars. Before surrection of Hinduism in India, Rajputs were either jats or gurjars. Till nineth century Tomar clan had neither adopted Brahmanism nor included in Rajput sangh. Presently some Tomar Rajputs consider themselves as Chandravanshi whereas others consider Suryavanshi. In Indian literature word Tomar is derived from Turbasu. Turbasu was son of king Yayati.
Most of the clans or Gotras of Jats have not been defined in Indian languages, leave apart the Gotras which have been sanskritized. In other languages like Pehlevi, Tokhari or scythian many Jat gotras have been defined and explained. Tomar word is originally from Tokhari/scythian which means king or ruler.
Regards,

raj2rif
September 7th, 2004, 12:45 AM
It is interesting to read the threads on this post. What I understood from Varun's first post is that his intention was to raise a point of not having hatered for other communities. We some time intend to bring down other communities just to drive home a point, that we are superior.

I feel while history is very important to drive the communities and groups to achieve difficult and some time impossible tasks, we can not live on achievements of past. If Jat boys were stronger in past that does not mean they will be strong in future too. I personally feel all communities have good as well as bad points and we are no exceptions.

Varun's point of not having hatered is very genuine and discussion should be on that line.

I agree with Subh Chand Ji also that we don't need self praise. Let our actions speak for us.