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ravichaudhary
August 13th, 2004, 09:34 AM
I wonder if members would assist and provide some comments on Habib's article.

He and his article have been the standard authority on Jat history in Indian academia.

I intend to write a rebuttal.

Members may provide feedback here or directly to me.

Those who wish to remain anonymous will have their privacy respected


Ravi Chaudhary

ravichaudhary
August 19th, 2004, 08:13 AM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1607

rre irfan Hbib/s article: msg 1603

Irfan Habib makes quite a to do about the Persian wheel, about it being found all over Jat Territoty, for that read, Punjab, Rajasthan, Western UP,.

His contribution to the history of the History of the Jats is that, the Jats were nomads, and entered Multan from the Sindh circa 9th to 11th century, spread into Punjab, and then into what is now Rajasthan, UP and Haryana from the 11th century to the 15th century. The spread is evidenced by the spread also of the Persian Wheel which according to him was introduced by the Muslim invaders circa 1th century on.

As part of his due diligence he also draws our attention to a "Noria".
a drawing of which is found in 7th century Rajastan( which incidently pre dates the Islamic invasion). He answers that by informing us the Noria is not a Persian Wheel, and besides a man is pulling the Noria and the animal is resting.

One would normally expect it to be the other way around, with the man resting and the animal doing the heavy work, but then Habib must have some special insight into 7th century India, not to speak of dumb Jat peasants.

To someone who has just seen his article a few questions come to mind.

1) What is a Noria ?

2) What is a Persian Wheel.

3) Are the two related ?

4) when are they first attested or heard of?.

Thanks to the internet we are able by inputting the terms Noria and Persian Wheel to come up with a few references

One reference tells

"
Noria \No"ri*a\, n. [Sp., from Ar. n[=a]'?ra.]

A large water wheel, turned by the action of a stream against its floats, and carrying at its circumference buckets, by which water is raised and discharged into a trough; used in
Arabia, China, and elsewhere for irrigating land; a Persian wheel "

Another on the history of irrigation tells us.
""
"Noria Technology

Norias are fascinating pieces of technology, in no small part because they are so clever. Their genius is in their simplicity; and, their simplicity lies at the heart of their antiquity and rapid diffusion. The actual date of their invention remains unknown, however, there is literary evidence of norias in Egypt in the fourth century B.C. (Neuburger 1969:418; Oleson 1984:325). They are mentioned in the writings of Vitruvius (1960:293-295), suggesting introduction to Rome by the first century B.C. (Hill 1984:140). One writer (Needham 1965:361-362) suggested the noria may have been developed initially in India and diffused to China in the second century A.D. By the fifth century A.D. it was widespread in the eastern Mediterranan, spreading through North Africa and onto the Iberian Penninsula by the eleventh century (al-Hassan and Hill 1986:40). Finally, illustrations of norias were included in a book of technology completed in Mesopotamia in A.D. 1206 (Ibn al-Razzaz al-Jazari 1974:179,183). The antiquity and widespread distribution of these devices indicates that farmers long ago, like their counterparts in many locations around the world today, had need for more water than direct rainfall alone could provide. Norias are axiomatically associated with dry lands. "


http://www.utexas.edu/depts/grg/eworks/articles/reviewed/1996/doolittle/noria.html


In other words. both are vertical wheels, driven by a horizontal wheel, and gear assembly. see picture a Noria.(Figure 3-in URL above).

Note the resemblance to a Persian wheel.

see:

http://www.greatmirror.com/index.cfm?chapterid=169&countryid=580&picid=7

. http://www.art-and-archaeology.com/india/people4.html


To Habib they are different, but then he does claim to be a historian , not an engineer.

Is his knowledge of history any better.?

please see also:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1608

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/1609


Ravi Chaudhary

PS I would appreciate some comments and insight.

and additional material

chhoraharyanada
August 28th, 2004, 11:21 PM
habib just regurgitates al beruni's bukwaas, am I right??

ravichaudhary
September 4th, 2004, 10:08 PM
Ramandeep (Aug 28, 2004 01:51 p.m.):
habib just regurgitates al beruni's bukwaas, am I right??

Not quite

Habib is quite original, he does not follow Alberuni, exceopt to quote him in claiming that Lord Krishna was a jat and a shudra.

That jats gave Ghazni hell,and all the Pandas were probably running to distance themsleves from the Jats

But Alberuni in fairness only would have got that information from his Brahmin sources.

Any historian worth his salt would question what Alberuni wrote.?

But not our Irfan Habib?

the question is why?

and also why our own historians, lap up whatever swill ( pig food) Habib/ Nonica Datta and co serve up.


Please re read Habibs article.

ravi