View Full Version : Dara Singh - Is He a Jat?
satbir_grewal
September 26th, 2004, 02:05 PM
Dara Singh, the president of the Jat Sabha - is he a Jat or a Sikh. Why do we have a Sikh as the president. Couldn't we find someone else.
rkumar
September 26th, 2004, 02:51 PM
Dear Satbir,
Whatever little I know of religion, a Sikh is one who is supposed to have six 'K's like Kesh, kada, karpan, kanghee, kachaa,...one more i forget..Dara Singh does not have any of these. Moreover, if Mr Dara Singh accepts himself as Jat, what makes you think that he is not Jat ? Just his father being a Sikh look alike does not bestwo the sikh religion on Mr Dara ingh. Many people in his father's genration used to keep beard and turbon..Leave aside anything, its the personal belief what matters the most. Dara Singh is 100% jat and so is Dharmendra..and any woman married to a Jat is also 100% jat...
Rajendra
uday
September 26th, 2004, 11:05 PM
Dara Singh is purely a JATT SIKH....
5 "Kakkes" as defined in Holy Guru Granthh sahib.....Kesh. kada.kangha,kachha and kirpan... ( Nanak naan chadhey kalaan .. tere dware sarbar da bhalla)
I will really appreciate if he would ( had) helped Hindu JATS........
Baki poiltics..OR teekh tekh laga liyo :-)
satbir_grewal
September 27th, 2004, 05:41 AM
Dear Rajendra ji,
Forgive me if I'm wrong but anyone who keeps the five 'k's you've mentioned is a Khalsa. The Khalsa are a purified form of the Sikhs and the most militant of them. So, your assertion that since Dara Singh does not sport any of these, he automatically becomes a Hindu Jat, is, well, not true at all. Going by your logic, the present generation of Jat Sikhs (most of whom are clean shaven) should all be Hindu Jats. This assumption, I'm afraid, is ludicrous. They still go to Gurudwaras and most of them have not even seen the inside of a mandir. They still marry into Jat Sikhs only. I fail to understand as to how we can call them Hindu Jats by any stretch of imagination. Since I'm a Grewal Jat and there are a large number of Grewal Jats among the Sikhs as well, I've interacted very closely with them. You'll be surprised to know that most of them look down upon the Hindu religion and being called a Hindu is almost derogatory in a Jat village in Punjab. So, assuming that Dara Singh and Dharmendra have renounced their religion is self-delusional. They became clean shaven only because their profession demanded it i.e. wrestling and acting. In any case, any Jat who gives up his religion as easily as you think, is not a Jat at all, whether Sikh or Hindu. So the question remains that couldn't we find someone from Haryana as president of the Jat Mahasabha.
Regards.
ravichaudhary
September 27th, 2004, 08:08 AM
Satbir
Why is finding someone from Haryana, so important ?
Is Haryana the homeland for all Jats?. It was only creaated in 1968, and until then was part of Punjab.
Many jats adopted Sikhism, as you may know.
If the jat becomes a sikh, does that stop him /her from being a Jat ?
I would think not
ravi
ishwarlamba
September 27th, 2004, 09:01 AM
Satvir Ji,
First of all, Jats are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims
Let me give some background of Dara Singh Ji.
In 1980 (approx) Jat Samaj was started in Mumbai. Founding members where very smart people. We have cream of the community in Mumbai, successful in business, services in civil and armed forces.
They said we do not mind working, but we need Leaders and the Money to run the samaj.
One of founding members I know is Dr (Col) Prem Singh. They did not have people of high profile from their own stock in Mumbai. Dharmendra's family is Arya samaji. His mother helped to build the samaj. They started a annual cultural programme "Sitaron Ki Sham presented by Jat Samaj". Because of Dara Singh ji and Dharam Ji, we started getting free top Heros and Heroins for our programme. We bought office for Jat Samaj in Santa Criz. Haryana Samaj which existed for 100 years did not have their own ofiice till I left India in 1988.
Also initially we used to call politicians as chief guest for our cultural programmes, but we found them useless because they always tried to divide the samaj members on party lines. Also in the dancing and singing programme no body was intested to see faces of politicians, because people who bought tickets where 95% non jats, the biggest hall of Mumbai used be house full.
Another smart thing done by us (I was one of them), we declared Dara singh Ji as life long president. Because of him we where alloted land in New Mumbai also.
Then people from Rajesthan and Haryana also started calling Dara singh and Dharmendra to their area for reservation for jats. Finally Dara Singh was made president of All India Jat Mahasabha. Dara Singh Ji was made member of Rajya Sabha. Dharmendra became a Lok Sabha from Bikaner.
Punjabi samaj in Mumbai did not take help of these great people because they have so many successful people from Punjab. They can get thousands of Dara Singh, we had none.
We starting calling top business people as chief guest from Mumbai itself like film industry.
They never created problems for the samj.
Let me tell u successful people are like big trees (they will give sheetal chaya), they do not belong one caste (they belong to all casts). they will help those who need help from them.
Because of these great souls, we do not have election problems. Now tell me what is harm
Regards
-------------------------------------------
Satbir Grewal (Sep 26, 2004 04:35 a.m.):
Dara Singh, the president of the Jat Sabha - is he a Jat or a Sikh. Why do we have a Sikh as the president. Couldn't we find someone else.
satbir_grewal
September 27th, 2004, 02:00 PM
Ishwar ji and Ravi ji,
Yo baat aapne pate ki kee se. Jats are Jats. Religion does not change blood. Point taken but I'd like to clarify something here. I am related to Dharmendra, although distantly and I can tell you for a fact that his family is not arya samaji but very much Sikh. His father, Kewal Krishan Deol, was under the influence of arya samaj but Dharmendra reverted
back to Sikhism and even Bobby's marriage was conducted according to Sikh rites. His daughters are married to Jat Sikhs and in fact Bobby's marriage was at one point due with a Grewal Jat Sikh girl from England but Bobby declined because he didn't know the girl. He later went in for a love marriage as we all know. Dharmendra's ancestral village is near Sahnewal (distt Ludhiana) and he visits it very often. In fact he was earlier going to contest Lok Sabha elections from Patiala but that did not materialise since he had a very strong adversary, Maharani Parneet Kaur, Maharaja Amarinder Singh Sidhu's wife standing in his way. So, he then thought better of it and went to Rajasthan and wisely so because he won from Bikaner. As far as Dara Singh is concerned, he is a Jat Sikh form the Randhawa clan and a very devout Sikh by all accounts.
Regards.
ravichaudhary
September 27th, 2004, 05:03 PM
Satbir
So what is the big deal whether anyone is a sikh( follows the Guru's panth) or an arya samaji ( follows the Vedic dharam)?
Anyone looking at the principles involved, can tell, that the same egalitarian priniciples are being followed- moksha is the objective, the concepts of atma, karma are recognized, idol worship is not reccomended etc
Frankly I do not see waht the big deal is, beyond some people insisting on creating a defining boundary.
A person is who he/she thinks he/she is.
If you think you are a Jat , you are one, If you do not , you are not one.
I prefer to look for common and unifying factors rather than divisive ones.
Ravi
rkumar
September 27th, 2004, 06:08 PM
I fully agree with Ravi in his last post and add further points;
1. Going to Gurudwara does not make one sikh as lots of Hindus visit Gurudwaras regularly.
2. If I agree with Satbir for a moment that the nature of profession demaned shaving the head and beared, now when Dharmendra does not act and Dara Singh does not wrestle, both could have gone back to their sikh appearances.
3. Fact of the matter is that Jats have never been strictly religious and folllowed whatever fancied them..Had Dara Singh been a strict Sikh, he would have politely declined the honor of being President of Jata Mahasabha or any Jat organisation..
Rajendra
ravichaudhary
September 27th, 2004, 07:09 PM
One could even suggest, that if he was a strict Sikh, and followed the Guru's Panth, and principles( not just appearances) he would have no problem, indeed would have welcomed, being part of the Jat Sabha.
The problem becomes, that to create a social group, one first creates boundaries, the boundaries come first not later. Physical appearances, customs,etc are part of the defining acts(rules) of these boundaries.
Gradually a separate group get created and develops its own identity.
To overcome these self created boundaries, takes some awareness and effort.
The Jat Sabha that Mr Lamba refers to is one such creation, a common identity overcoming differences of perception.
In that Sabha, each person is free to follow his spiritual beliefs( another time honoured Jat concept).
Thus Dara Singh was a true Jat, and became head of a Jat organization.
I have a unifying bent of mind, and unashamedly will push that view
Best regards
ravi
chhoraharyanada
September 27th, 2004, 07:22 PM
Ram Ram.
Satbir,
Why do you care so much about Dara Singh?
OK - fine he might be of Jat Sikh origins, but he is with the BJP. That implies that he is hindutva-slanted and cares about hindus above silly ideas (e.g., pseudo "secularism").
Here: read this link from two or so weeks ago:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040913/haryana.htm#15
Dara Singh seeks job quota for Jats
Our Correspondent
Ambala, September 12
Renowned wrestler, member of Rajya Sabha and a campaigner of the BJP Dara Singh while praising Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said he was not a dummy Prime Minister.
Dara Singh was in Ambala to address a conference of the Haryana unit of the All-India Jat Maha Sabha. He is also holding the post of president of the maha sabha.
Talking to mediapersons here today he said Manmohan Singh was an intelligent leader but due to the pressure of coalition partners he was not able to implement his policies properly.
In reply to a question he said tainted MPs should not be inducted in the Cabinet and political parties should come forward to oppose this practice. He justified the protest of BJP in and outside Parliament in this regard. Defending the BJP leaders Lal Krishan Advani and Uma Bharti he said they were not the tainted leaders as the cases registered against them were of political nature whereas the tainted ministers of Congress were involved in criminal cases.
Referring to the poor performance of Indian players in Athens he said the players had not been getting proper facilities and undue interference by politicians and bureaucrats in the selection of the players should be stopped.
Briefing about the activities of Jat Maha Sabha he said Jats should be included in OBC list and should be given reservation in jobs.
He said personally he favoured reservation in jobs but was of the view that promotions should be made on the basis of merit.
satbir_grewal
September 27th, 2004, 07:33 PM
Ravi ji,
I couldn't agree with you more. We shouldn't be hunting for divisive issues. We can only hope that one day everybody's going to think along the same lines. This is a mature and wise approach to the whole issue.
Having said that, what amuses me most is rajendra's illogical and self-consoling optimism about what he so fervently believes and wants others to do likewise.
Oh yeah, rajendra ji, so you believe that Dara Singh and Dharmendra Deol are not Jat Sikhs but Sikhs who have renounced their own faith and fallen into the Hindu fold. Well, keep deluding yourself if it makes you feel any better. I've personally seen some of the most anti-Hindu, rabid Jat Sikhs who are absolutely clean shaven. Please go to some village in Punjab and you'll come to know exactly what I'm trying to say. Try telling them that they're Hindu and well....the less said the better.
The most hilarious part of your post is the weird assumption that just because Dara Singh accepted the presidentship of the Jat Mahasabha, that immediately makes him a Hindu Jat. I've never encountered a more simplistic form of conclusive analysis. Have a heart, rajendra ji, don't snatch peoples' faith away just because it suits your point of view. How would it feel if somebody called you a musalman.
As far as your contention goes that Jats have never followed any faith religiously, you'll have to pick up your history books and study Sikh militancy. It was almost entirely fuelled by Jat Sikhs. If you really want to put your theory to test, try and meet some of the fanatic Jat musalmans of Pakistani Punjab who cross over into India on behalf of the Let or the JeM. Good hunting and Good luck.
Regards.
ravichaudhary
September 27th, 2004, 08:11 PM
Satbir
What you are refering to is lack of knowledge and awareness.
In some areas, yes, the term Hindu is denigrated and becomes a perjorative termterms
That in itself is one of the factors I refer to ,when I talk of social groups being formed, and defining boundraies being created.
Soon members of the group lose awareness and knowledge of Hinduism, or the Arya Samaj, - they only become terms to be used to abuse someone.
Tragic is it not ?
All this is telling you, on a broader level, is that a separate group is being/has been created.
So people like yourself, or me or Rajendra,( and I agree with him here) have two choices,
1) do we work to dispel the ignorance and darkness ( in these villages and elsewhere , you talk about)?
or
2) do we accept the diviseness born out of ignorance and propogate ignorance. ?
You decide.
satbir_grewal
September 27th, 2004, 09:01 PM
Ravi,
You're spot on. Dara Singh's or Dharmendra's professing the Sikh faith does not make either of them less of a Jat. It's good that they're doing something for the Jat community. If they go to a Gurudwara to observe their faith, it should be none of our concern. As long as they speak for Jats as well it is quite alright with us. At least we've found some able leaders who can voice our concerns even if we required two Jat Sikhs to do it and mind you, they have a lot of political clout. I just hope Navjot Sidhu will show the same fervour for his Jat community.
Regards.
ravichaudhary
September 27th, 2004, 09:24 PM
Little drops do an ocean make
rkumar
September 27th, 2004, 09:50 PM
Satbir Grewal (Sep 27, 2004 10:03 a.m.):
Ravi ji,
I couldn't agree with you more. We shouldn't be hunting for divisive issues. We can only hope that one day everybody's going to think along the same lines. This is a mature and wise approach to the whole issue.
Having said that, what amuses me most is rajendra's illogical and self-consoling optimism about what he so fervently believes and wants others to do likewise.
Oh yeah, rajendra ji, so you believe that Dara Singh and Dharmendra Deol are not Jat Sikhs but Sikhs who have renounced their own faith and fallen into the Hindu fold. Well, keep deluding yourself if it makes you feel any better. I've personally seen some of the most anti-Hindu, rabid Jat Sikhs who are absolutely clean shaven. Please go to some village in Punjab and you'll come to know exactly what I'm trying to say. Try telling them that they're Hindu and well....the less said the better.
The most hilarious part of your post is the weird assumption that just because Dara Singh accepted the presidentship of the Jat Mahasabha, that immediately makes him a Hindu Jat. I've never encountered a more simplistic form of conclusive analysis. Have a heart, rajendra ji, don't snatch peoples' faith away just because it suits your point of view. How would it feel if somebody called you a musalman.
As far as your contention goes that Jats have never followed any faith religiously, you'll have to pick up your history books and study Sikh militancy. It was almost entirely fuelled by Jat Sikhs. If you really want to put your theory to test, try and meet some of the fanatic Jat musalmans of Pakistani Punjab who cross over into India on behalf of the Let or the JeM. Good hunting and Good luck.
Regards.
Dear Satbir,
Some of the Jat sikhs you are talking, might be anti Hindus in general, but ceratinly not anti jats like you are appearing to be anti Sikh jats for the resons best known to you..Like you know of Jat Sikhs, I too have lots of friends among them and I know them as well as you probbaly. Most Hindu Jats are also anti brahamnas and anti banias...therefore I am not convinced by your logics..To me all Jats are Jats.. Now coming to muslim Jats, I have met many of them and they still maintain a speacial place for us hindu jats in their heart..Fighting for Pakisan is another thing for them...Two are different issues as far I can understand..
Rajendra
ishwarlamba
September 28th, 2004, 04:43 AM
Dear all,
I repeat successful people have no caste or religion, they belong to all, they help all.
We love Dara Singh Ji and Dharam Ji and are proud of them.
Here are two incidents:
1. In Jaipur, Jat Sabha organised a blood donation camp and invited Dharam Ji, I tell u there where thousands of jat youths, Dharam Ji was so moved he had tears in his eyes. He said I cannot forget this incident in my life.
2. Ones there was film shooting going on in beeds of Sikar district. When Dharam Ji was coming back on the way one old man gave hand. Dharam ji stopped the car and gave him lift, on the way old man said I am a jat and u should stay with me. Dharam Ji accepted the offer, he had dinner with bajre ki roti and sarsoo ka sag and slept there.
He is down to earth and loves his community.
Thanks Satbir bhai sahib, you are just supporting what I said , I just meant that till parents are there, they are family heads, we all jats follow that tradition.
regards
rksehrawat
September 28th, 2004, 12:19 PM
Dara Singh has always identified himself with Hindu jats and is striving for the welfare of the community including getting the community declared backward and given reservation in government jobs, hence the raising of very question of his being a Sikh is very absurd. Similarly, Dharmender writes his name in all documents as "Dharmender Kewal Krishan". His father Master Kewal Krishan was a well known Arya Samaji of his area. It is proof enough that he is not repeat a sikh. His son Sunny's name is "Ajay Deol" and he also don't write Singh. Dharmender is a jat and that too a hindu jat. His wife also don't use the usual suffix "kaur" which is common with sikh ladies but simply writes 'Prakash'. He is not only a jat but a very brave jat. There is an incident involving him and the late Raj Kumar. Dharmender was a relatively new comer those days and the late Raj Kumar was an established star. In a party Raj Kumar after getting drunk was misbehaving with everybody but nobody had the courage to stop him. Emboldened he also pulled Dharmender's tie and uttered some unpleasant words to him. Infuriated Dharmender caught Raj Kumar by his collor and told him "aaj ke bad yeh mat bhulna ki main jat hoon". Similarly, the incident of his bashing up the journalist Devyani is well known. Only a jat is capable of doing that. Hence no doubts.
satbir_grewal
September 28th, 2004, 03:15 PM
Mr Sehrawat,
From what I can make out, you're also one of those Alices in Wonderland. Where on earth did you come to know that Parkash Kaur does not write "Kaur" and Bobby and Sunny do not suffix Singh to their names. I hope it's not the "filmi kalian" type of reliable information. Going by your logic, even Navjot Sidhu is a Hindu Jat because he doesn't append 'Singh'. Give me a break, for heaven's sake. For your info, when Dharmendra filed his nomination from Bikaner, he filled his wife's name as Parkash Kaur. His son's names are Vijay Singh Deol and Ajay Singh Deol.
Let me tell you something very interesting. My mother's goth is Deol and I happen to be related to Dharmendra so for God's sake don't give me those "filmi kalian" gossips. If you're such a film buff, you might've noticed that the Deol home production "Dillagi" started with recitations from the Sikh scriptures with the Khalsa flag fluttering and not bells chiming in a Mandir. So, relax. Gossip time is over. I didn't want to sound ostentatious by claiming any relation with Dharmendra but posts such as yours compelled me to reveal whatever distant relation I have with Dharam. By the way, his full name is Dharam Singh Deol. Besides this, if you want to meet a Hindu Jat in the Jat Sikh heartland of Punjab, you'll need a pair of very powerful lenses, a torch, a binocular and loads of hope. Jat villages of the Punjab had converted enmasse to Sikhism.
Regarding Dara Singh, you seem to be suffering from bouts of fantasia. Since he is fighting for reservations for the Jat community, he's a Hindu Jat. Wow. Do you know that Sikh Jats in the districts of Hanumangarh, Anupgarh and Ganganagar in Rajasthan have been granted OBC status by the Rajasthan govt alongwith Hindu Jats. Mr Sehrawat, nice try but life is not so simple that you can twist facts to suit your fervent beliefs.
Regards.
rkumar
September 28th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Satbir Grewal (Sep 26, 2004 04:35 a.m.):
Dara Singh, the president of the Jat Sabha - is he a Jat or a Sikh. Why do we have a Sikh as the president. Couldn't we find someone else.
Dear Satbir,
Your very question itself is contradictory. You are comparing Jat and Sikh and not the Hindu Jats and Sikh Jats..Let me ask you a simple question here based upon what you have posted;
Does Jat Sabha constitution differentiate between Jats from various faiths?
Let us carry forward the debate after you answer this..Let us ensure that we keep our debate to the point and do not call each other by names. We all accept that you know about Dharmendra and Dara Singh more than any other member here..
Rajendra
ravichaudhary
September 28th, 2004, 07:40 PM
KAUR:
I can confirm that the 'Kaur' suffix is used by Jat ladies who are Hindu. That indicates that the suffix is not indicative of faith.
**************
Satbir,
I am going to ask you to be careful,in your postings .
Your comments on the Sikh Jats,could be construed as an attack on the Sikh Jats and accusatory of them of being anti Hindu. You could, inadvertently of course, give a visitor the impression, that this site is anti - Sikh and the Guru's teachings.
We are quite clear here, that this is not the case
I have noted, as Rajendra has, that your posts can be construed to be indicative of an impression that Sikhs hate Hindus or some such thing.
Needless to say, such thoughts are incorrect, needlessly inflamatory and rumor mongering, and definitely not the opinion of members here.
Creating divides between Sikhs and Hindus is not, I suggest, a terribly great or wonderful idea
A faith is a matter of personal spiritual belief. A Jat is someone who thinks he/she is a Jat.
This was a digression. I leave you to answer Rajendra's focused question, which can provide the base platform for this current discussion
Are you any relation to J S Grewal the historian ?
Ravi Chaudhary
ishwarlamba
September 29th, 2004, 04:20 AM
Satbir Ji,
Can u please do some reading before u write.
Why are u trying to divide the jat community just on the basis of faith.
For your kind information, there are 144 villages in Abohar / Fazilka and 40 villages in Patiala district of hindu jats.
People like u have already harmed the sikh community, can u please change now your glasses.
regards
-------------------------------------------
Satbir Grewal (Sep 28, 2004 05:53 a.m.):
Mr Sehrawat,
From what I can make out, you're also one of those Alices in Wonderland. Where on earth did you come to know that Parkash Kaur does not write "Kaur" and Bobby and Sunny do not suffix Singh to their names. I hope it's not the "filmi kalian" type of reliable information. Going by your logic, even Navjot Sidhu is a Hindu Jat because he doesn't append 'Singh'. Give me a break, for heaven's sake. For your info, when Dharmendra filed his nomination from Bikaner, he filled his wife's name as Parkash Kaur. His son's names are Vijay Singh Deol and Ajay Singh Deol.
Let me tell you something very interesting. My mother's goth is Deol and I happen to be related to Dharmendra so for God's sake don't give me those "filmi kalian" gossips. If you're such a film buff, you might've noticed that the Deol home production "Dillagi" started with recitations from the Sikh scriptures with the Khalsa flag fluttering and not bells chiming in a Mandir. So, relax. Gossip time is over. I didn't want to sound ostentatious by claiming any relation with Dharmendra but posts such as yours compelled me to reveal whatever distant relation I have with Dharam. By the way, his full name is Dharam Singh Deol. Besides this, if you want to meet a Hindu Jat in the Jat Sikh heartland of Punjab, you'll need a pair of very powerful lenses, a torch, a binocular and loads of hope. Jat villages of the Punjab had converted enmasse to Sikhism.
Regarding Dara Singh, you seem to be suffering from bouts of fantasia. Since he is fighting for reservations for the Jat community, he's a Hindu Jat. Wow. Do you know that Sikh Jats in the districts of Hanumangarh, Anupgarh and Ganganagar in Rajasthan have been granted OBC status by the Rajasthan govt alongwith Hindu Jats. Mr Sehrawat, nice try but life is not so simple that you can twist facts to suit your fervent beliefs.
Regards.
satbir_grewal
September 29th, 2004, 02:38 PM
Rajendra ji,
You might have noticed that nowhere have I mentioned that the Jat Sabha differentiated between Jats of various faiths. The point is when you say "Jat" or the Jat Sabha, the first thing that comes to mind is Hindu Jats. Therefore, I've cosistently been mentioning that preferably a Hindu Jat should head the Sabha. Sikh Jats are most welcome but does the Jat Sabha really care about the Sikh Jats or do the Sikh Jats, who are very economically and politically powerful, need the lobbying of the Jat Sabha. That's my point. Dara Singh and Dharmendra are most welcome to represent the Jat community. Nothing wrong with that and yes, there should be absolutely no name calling.
Regards.
rkumar
September 29th, 2004, 03:31 PM
Satbir Grewal (Sep 29, 2004 05:08 a.m.):
Rajendra ji,
You might have noticed that nowhere have I mentioned that the Jat Sabha differentiated between Jats of various faiths. The point is when you say "Jat" or the Jat Sabha, the first thing that comes to mind is Hindu Jats. Therefore, I've cosistently been mentioning that preferably a Hindu Jat should head the Sabha. Sikh Jats are most welcome but does the Jat Sabha really care about the Sikh Jats or do the Sikh Jats, who are very economically and politically powerful, need the lobbying of the Jat Sabha. That's my point. Dara Singh and Dharmendra are most welcome to represent the Jat community. Nothing wrong with that and yes, there should be absolutely no name calling.
Regards.
Let us not get confused Satbir now..Just read your original two line post. Forget about everything else you have written or others have written. My counter question to you is that unless Jat Sabha constitution says that only Hindu Jats can be the members and other executive members of the Sabha, why can't Dara Singh be the president ? Let us just stick to the constitution of the Jat Sabha for the moment..We can talk of further interpretations later on..
Rajendra
rksehrawat
September 29th, 2004, 03:59 PM
Dear Satbir,
Yes, it is fact that I have used most of the facts from print or electronic media and by puting forth facts acquired through reading or listering is no twist. I take exception to your statement in the first and last para. By the way in his affidavit submitted during his last elections which is an official and public document, he has used the name I mentioned in my previous post. As regards Dara Singh, please read carefully, I said "he identifies with hindu jats" which does not mean he is a Hindu jat.
Secondly, if you are related to Dharmendar, a Sikh according to your own admission, why you are so upset a sikh being President of jat sabha. Or are you simply name dropping.
Ishwar Singh Lamba (Sep 28, 2004 06:50 p.m.):
Satbir Ji,
Can u please do some reading before u write.
Why are u trying to divide the jat community just on the basis of faith.
For your kind information, there are 144 villages in Abohar / Fazilka and 40 villages in Patiala district of hindu jats.
People like u have already harmed the sikh community, can u please change now your glasses.
regards
-------------------------------------------
Satbir Grewal (Sep 28, 2004 05:53 a.m.):
Mr Sehrawat,
From what I can make out, you're also one of those Alices in Wonderland. Where on earth did you come to know that Parkash Kaur does not write "Kaur" and Bobby and Sunny do not suffix Singh to their names. I hope it's not the "filmi kalian" type of reliable information. Going by your logic, even Navjot Sidhu is a Hindu Jat because he doesn't append 'Singh'. Give me a break, for heaven's sake. For your info, when Dharmendra filed his nomination from Bikaner, he filled his wife's name as Parkash Kaur. His son's names are Vijay Singh Deol and Ajay Singh Deol.
Let me tell you something very interesting. My mother's goth is Deol and I happen to be related to Dharmendra so for God's sake don't give me those "filmi kalian" gossips. If you're such a film buff, you might've noticed that the Deol home production "Dillagi" started with recitations from the Sikh scriptures with the Khalsa flag fluttering and not bells chiming in a Mandir. So, relax. Gossip time is over. I didn't want to sound ostentatious by claiming any relation with Dharmendra but posts such as yours compelled me to reveal whatever distant relation I have with Dharam. By the way, his full name is Dharam Singh Deol. Besides this, if you want to meet a Hindu Jat in the Jat Sikh heartland of Punjab, you'll need a pair of very powerful lenses, a torch, a binocular and loads of hope. Jat villages of the Punjab had converted enmasse to Sikhism.
Regarding Dara Singh, you seem to be suffering from bouts of fantasia. Since he is fighting for reservations for the Jat community, he's a Hindu Jat. Wow. Do you know that Sikh Jats in the districts of Hanumangarh, Anupgarh and Ganganagar in Rajasthan have been granted OBC status by the Rajasthan govt alongwith Hindu Jats. Mr Sehrawat, nice try but life is not so simple that you can twist facts to suit your fervent beliefs.
Regards.
uday
September 29th, 2004, 04:37 PM
Hema malini ke saath shadee ke time Dharmender ne shayad naam bhi badla tha. Something Khan ... Khoon
aisa bhi media report main aaya tha.
jagmohan
September 29th, 2004, 05:18 PM
Dear All,
I don't understand the fuss at all.
May be I am ignorant but can someone please tell me the contributions of JAT Mahasabha for the betterment of JATS. I really want to know because I have been in Mumbai since 1997 and was wanting to join this famous 'Sabha' but few JAT friends told me not to waste my time. I asked them why do they say so? One of them said "Ya Mahasabha bas naam ki hai. Karte dharte kucch se nahin ar jab bhi meeting ho hai, inka joot baaje se. Sharab pee ka ek doosre te ladain se. Na kuuch karte na doosryan ne karan detey". Therefore I ask, please tell me their contributions.
Why this fuss over different types/kinds of JATS? I think every one abuses the Brahmin and Bania in the villages. Whether he be a Hindu, Sikh or Muslim JAT. That's why JAT is a JAT.
Bhai, Hema Malini ke saath shaadi karne ke liye to main bhi Kafir ban jaata!!! Dharmendra became Dilawar Khan ar main ban jaata Jangi Khan. MALIK to main hoon hi!!!
(Manne pitvaoge PARO te. Jo usne bera paat gya te JAT Mahasabha ka sammelan ho jya ga).
Regards,
JS MALIK
uday
September 30th, 2004, 11:11 AM
Ha..Ha..Ha :-)
Col. sahab,
fer to Aakhree kaam bandh ja ga :-D :-D
Lt Col Jagmohan Malik (Retd) (Sep 29, 2004 07:52 a.m.):
(Manne pitvaoge PARO te. JO USNE BERA PAAT GAYA te JAT Mahasabha ka sammelan ho jya ga).
Regards,
JS MALIK
pankajsaroha
September 30th, 2004, 04:13 PM
Hi Jats,
My first mail to this forum, actually i was tempted to write this mail after seeing so many mails beeing exchanged on Dara singh and Dharmendra being Jats.
Does it really matter that they are Jats leave aside Hindu or a Sikh Jat?
OK I also want to know know about the muslim Jats .........as far as I know they are Jats who who converted to Islam during the Mughal period and if they converted then they no longer can be called Jats.
I am not sure can anyone please enlighten me.
Regards,
Pankaj Saroha
"Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength"
ajat
October 1st, 2004, 01:27 AM
Hi All,
Dara Singh is a Randhawa Jat.
Regards,
ajat
October 1st, 2004, 02:18 AM
Hi All,
I am a Jat Sikh, and the Grewal Jats have earned the reputation of "Jattan De Baniey" or the “Banias of the Jat tribe”. In Satbir’s case, I fear the negative implications behind this reputation may be true.
Best Wishes,
ishwarlamba
October 1st, 2004, 04:09 AM
Suuny Ji,
You can only say this as a joke (In the pinds), otherwise it is good if jats can capture lot of business
regards
------------------------------
Hi All,
I am a Jat Sikh, and the Grewal Jats have earned the reputation of "Jattan De Baniey" or the “Banias of the Jat tribe”. In Satbir’s case, I fear the negative implications behind this reputation may be true.
Best Wishes,[/quote]
amitbijarniaiitd
October 4th, 2004, 10:32 AM
Satbir Grewal (Sep 26, 2004 04:35 a.m.):
Dara Singh, the president of the Jat Sabha - is he a Jat or a Sikh. Why do we have a Sikh as the president. Couldn't we find someone else.
arr bhaya dara singh jat ki hisaab su kuni jyada samjha mat.
chhoraharyanada
October 5th, 2004, 10:28 PM
Sunny Singh (Sep 30, 2004 04:48 p.m.):
Hi All,
I am a Jat Sikh, and the Grewal Jats have earned the reputation of "Jattan De Baniey" or the “Banias of the Jat tribe”. In Satbir’s case, I fear the negative implications behind this reputation may be true.
Best Wishes,
Hi Sunny,
Kidha?
Why are Grewal Jats known as Jattan De Baniey?
Whats the story behind it?
Regards,
ajat
October 5th, 2004, 11:06 PM
Hi Ramandeep,
I believe there is a particular jealousy between the Dhillons (and other Jats) and Grewal Jats in the Ludhiana district, where the Grewals own a tract of 75+ villages, clustering around Naurangwal, Gujarwal, etc. The Grewals had some sort of local authority in the district as late as 18th Century (pre-Sikh period) and had a status of Rajputs, assuming by the fact that they rarely practiced karewa and wore the sacred thread at weddings.
Grewal Jats have been known to be excellent soldiers, leaders, and businessmen. Although they have a cluster of 75+ villages, their landholdings were particularly small (for Malwa) and as a consequence they often engaged in military affairs and were not afraid to start businesses like the Khatris. Of the Jat Sikhs, they were initially one of the most educated clans. Perhaps this is where they have earned the title.
Best Wishes,
chhoraharyanada
October 6th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Hi Sunny,
Thanks for telling the story ...
Though, speaking of Ludhiana - I was always under the impression that it was the Badeshas who were very dominant there (both in terms of numbers and financially ...) I did not know that it were the Grewals.
Oh well ...
Chunga fir ...
hsbirk
October 7th, 2004, 11:49 AM
I agree. Let's stick just to the FACTS.
Dharmender's real name is Dharm Singh Deol. He was born into a Sikh family. He is a Jat and definately a member of Arya Samaj and ex-Sikh now. He had to legally change his name to legally marry Hema Malini without divorcing Prakash Kaur.
Dara Singh the actor/wrestler's gotra is Randhawa. His brother was known in Bollywood in the early days as "Randhawa". That was his connection to get into movies. He was already famous as a wrestler. Yes he is a Jat. He was born a Sikh but not a practicing Sikh anymore. Maybe he is a member of Arya Samaj too. His son was married to a non-Sikh years ago.
Famous "Bhagat Singh Shaheed" was born into a Sandhu Jat family who were members of the Arya Samaj. He himself was an atheist and died as such for India.
Mr. Kalkhunde: in theory all Sikhs are to have the 5 symbols. In practice most Sikh Jats are clean shaven like Dharmender and not really all that religious. Sikh Jats form the majority of the Sikh population but are the most lax when it comes to following religion rigidly. Lately non-Jat Sikhs have gone on campaigns to slander and insult Jats on the internet and use religion to bash Jats and try to distort Jat history. They are also trying to pit Muslim Jat v.s. Hindu Jat v.s. Sikh Jat in the name of Sikh unity which never existed.
Mr. Grewal: Gurdwaras are open to all. I myself goto both gurdwara and mandhir. I have been to church too. Whether they are Sikh or Hindu, the more importantly they are Jat. Religion is a personal choice.
Ravi: I agree. It appears that some are posting on this site to give Sikh Jats a bad name and divide Jats on religious lines. I doubt that they really are Jats.
Here is another Jat politician of Sikh origin who may or may not be a Sikh now (it doesn't matter): comrade Harkrishan Singh Surjeet. His gotra is Bassi and he is Punjabi.
I read that on this site that the Bharatpur kingdom is the only Jat kingdom?
We should be allowed to add the following to that list and I will explain why right after I list them:
Maharaja Ranjit's rule 1800-1840 over most of Punjab. (Sandhu)
Patiala Kingdom (Sidhu)
Faridkot Kingdom (Brar)
Jind Kingdom (Sidhu)
Nabha Kingdom (Sidhu)
--------
All of these kings were excommunicated from the Sikh fold. Maharaja Ranjit Singh was excommunicated for marrying a Muslim and the other other 4 kingdoms were members of the Phulkian Sikh misl (confederecies) which ex excommunicated from the Sikh fold because its founder Patialia king Ala Singh at one time did not support other Sikh factions in a united front.
It was only after Jats joined Sikhism in large numbers that Sikhism changed from a pacificist movement into a fighting movement. Interestlingly enough 11 of the 12 Sikh Misls (confederacies) were either lead or founded by Jatts of well known gotras like Gill, Virk/Birk, Dhillon, Sidhu-Brar, Sandhu, etc. The Sikh misls were like mini-kingdoms they all controlled their own areas but not really proper kingdoms. One of the misls was known as Dhillon sardars also called Bhangi sardars because they smoked Bhang (marijuana) all the time. Dhillons ruled Lahore and Gujrat in present day Pakistan. It was from the Dhillons that Maharaja Ranjit Singh won control of Lahore from.
More on the Bhangis:
http://www.sikh-history.com/sikhhist/events/bhangi.html
Maharaja Ranjit SIngh's maternal grandfather was Raja Gajput of Jind (Sidhu) making him related to all these other Jat kings of Punjab that I mentioned.
More about Maharaja Ranjit singh Sandhu:
http://allaboutsikhs.com/warriors/buddha.htm
http://allaboutsikhs.com/ranjit
The Phulkian misl traces it's origins to Chaudhri Phul (Sidhu Jat) who in turn traces his origins to Bhatti king Jaisal of Jaisalmer. Sidhus were created out of Bhatti. In fact all Sidhu-Brars claim this same heritage. The Brar gotra was created out of the Sidhu gotra. That is why Brar king of Faridkot claimed descent also from Chaudhri Phul. The name of Patialia was derived from "bhatti" and the founder of the Phulkian misl and Patialia's first king: "Ala" Singh. Chaudhri Phul was also an ancestor of Maharaja Ranjit Singh.
The present chief minister of Punjab, Captain Amarinder Singh is the heir to the Patiala throne and a direct descendent of Chaudhri Phul.
More on the Sikh Misls:
http://www.sikhtemple.com/sikh_misls.htm
note that from this link only Jassa Singh Alhuwalia's group called "Alhuwalia" was non-jat lead and non-jat founded. The Ramgharia misl was founded by a Jat named Nand Singh and later lead by Jassa Singh Ramgharia a non-Jat and it took after his name. Both of these groups had Jats amongst their ranks as warriors.
With those exceptions every other group of Sikh misls were (10) were Jat lead and founded by Jats.
hsbirk
October 7th, 2004, 11:57 AM
The surname found in Malwa Punjab of "Narangwal" are also Grewals.
rkumar
October 7th, 2004, 12:27 PM
Thank you Mr Birk for wonderful information. There is a place here near Liverpool, called Birkenhead..I wonder if this has anything to do Birk Jats????
Rajendra
hsbirk
October 7th, 2004, 12:44 PM
called Birkenhead..I wonder if this has anything to do Birk Jats?
I doubt it but who knows? I'm more inclined to say it has something to do with Germany.
Basically Virk/Virka/Birk are all the same thing. Some write Burke to anglicize the name a little more. 2 of the misls on that last link were lead by Virks. One by Karoara Singh Virk and the other by Nawab Kapur Singh Virk who was a shining example of the warrior spirit of Jats. I would say that even if I didn't share the same surname as him.
Virks are a large group which is divided on religious lines. I am told that there are Virks in Haryana who are both Hindu and Sikh. If there any Virks who are Haryanavi or Rajistani or UP Jat then I would be interested to know about them.
The Virks I know in Haryana are Sikh and are recent migrants from Punjab.
There are Sikh Virks in Malwa region of Punjab and smaller numbers in Doaba (jallandhar/hoshipur area) Punjab. The largest numbers of Virks are in Pakistan and they are Muslim. Last I heard it was over 100 villages in the Gujjrawala area alone.
ajat
October 8th, 2004, 12:46 AM
Hi Virk,
Gujranwala seems to be the ancestral seat of Virk, with over 132 villages there. But there is a lot more history to the Virk clan. Here’s a good idea of where your clan came from:
Prakash summarizes the view of Vrkas:
Though the correct import of the expression haumavarka is obscure and its equation with vrka is conjectural and implausible, it is well-nigh certain that the Vrkas were associated with the Sakas, as the epithet of the Kusana official Barkanpati [Varkanpati], referred to above, shows. As regards the name of these people, derived from the word for wolf vrka, it is significant to note that some tribes of Central Asia traced their ancestry to a wolf or she-wolf… Some such traditions seem to underly the name of the Vrkas. This name shows that the people bearing it, were of Central Asiatic affinity. In modern times the section of Jats of the Panjab, called Virks, represents the remnants of these ancient Vrkas of Central Asia. The name of the locality of Verka, which is the famous junction on the Amritsar Pathankot Railway, perhaps, bears a reminiscence of the settlement of the tribe (Prakash 1964, 102).
Good Luck,
ajat
October 8th, 2004, 12:59 AM
Hi Raman,
Don’t know much about the Badeshas, I don’t think they are an important tribe in the district – as is general in Malwa – Sidhu/Brar, Dhaliwal, Dhillon, Chahal, Gill and Sandhus are important.
Back to Grewals, for some reason they earned the title “Sahu” or gentle, which is a term usually confined to West Panjabi Rajputs, but also a title given to the Sial Jats. This term alone can suggest that the Grewals never really tilled their land until they became marginalized. This is strengthened as many important families of Sardars sought marriages with Grewal women because they generally did not help with fieldwork.
So all in all, the Grewals may very well be “degraded Rajputs” like the Sidhu-Brars.
Best Wishes,
hsbirk
October 8th, 2004, 09:48 AM
Sunny Singh :
Thanks for the info. I am looking for something more concrete. There are several places in Indian Punjab alone named "Virka'. I know of 1 in Malwa, 1 in Majha and 1 in Doaba. Who is Prakash ? Can I have some details on him and his background?
If you are the same "Ajat" from jattworld can you relay the following message of mine to them?:
----------
Jattworld has banned me. I am being banned simply because I served my country and fought terrorism. I refuse to accept a khalistani ideology. Jattworld has been hijacked by khalistanis. These people fail to realize that opposing Khalistan is not the same as opposing Sikhism. In fact I am a proud Sikh, but firstly a Jat, secondly an Indian and thirdly a Sikh. Like Dharmender and Dara Singh I do not rigidly follow Sikhism .
khalistani terrorists deserved what they got. Look at the sick things they did: www.punjabtrauma.org. I fought these people with my bare hands. I would do everything all over again to protect every inch of land from such terrorists if I had to.
Simranjit Mann, Parkash Badal (Dhillon), Amarinder (Sidhu) all opposed terrorism too. Are they criminals on that basis? Simranjit was a Police officer too. What these Sardars of Malwa have in common is they are filthy rich, amongst the most powerful, influential in all of Punjab and all are Malwai Jat. They were all proud and served their country. I have done exactly as them. No different.
Those Racist anti-Jat Ghullighars Randip/Nav/Sunny Singh banned me on their www.sikh-history.com site after my long response that exposed Ghullighars and Doabias for what they really are. Truth hurts. Presenting a Jat view alone is enough to warrant a ban? What gives? They use the Sikh religion to spread hatred against all Jats. They have in the past insulted Haryana Jats too.
I will resurface on the Ghullighar site shortly to express my views.
JohalJatt:
Thanks for banning me on jattworld too without notice. If this is a khalistani site then I want no part of it. You can find me at a real Jat site: jatland.com
Jai Hind Jat Brothers !
hsbirk
October 8th, 2004, 09:50 AM
Badesha of Punjab are Jats. They are found in Malwa. A minor tribe in comparison to groups like Sidhus numberwise. Beyond that can't tell you anymore.
ajat
October 13th, 2004, 09:49 PM
Hi HS Birk
Buddha Prakash is, I believe, a historian from the Panjabi University – Patiala. He is most noted in his belief that Chandragupta Maurya was a native of the Panjab. He is not a Jat, maybe a Khatri or Baniya.
For tips on Virks, look to the South-eastern shore of the Caspian Sea.
I will forward your messages onto Jattworld.
Regards,
chhoraharyanada
October 14th, 2004, 08:55 PM
HS Birk (Oct 08, 2004 12:18 a.m.):
Sunny Singh :
Thanks for the info. I am looking for something more concrete. There are several places in Indian Punjab alone named "Virka'. I know of 1 in Malwa, 1 in Majha and 1 in Doaba. Who is Prakash ? Can I have some details on him and his background?
If you are the same "Ajat" from jattworld can you relay the following message of mine to them?:
----------
Jattworld has banned me. I am being banned simply because I served my country and fought terrorism. I refuse to accept a khalistani ideology. Jattworld has been hijacked by khalistanis. These people fail to realize that opposing Khalistan is not the same as opposing Sikhism. In fact I am a proud Sikh, but firstly a Jat, secondly an Indian and thirdly a Sikh. Like Dharmender and Dara Singh I do not rigidly follow Sikhism .
khalistani terrorists deserved what they got. Look at the sick things they did: www.punjabtrauma.org. I fought these people with my bare hands. I would do everything all over again to protect every inch of land from such terrorists if I had to.
Simranjit Mann, Parkash Badal (Dhillon), Amarinder (Sidhu) all opposed terrorism too. Are they criminals on that basis? Simranjit was a Police officer too. What these Sardars of Malwa have in common is they are filthy rich, amongst the most powerful, influential in all of Punjab and all are Malwai Jat. They were all proud and served their country. I have done exactly as them. No different.
Those Racist anti-Jat Ghullighars Randip/Nav/Sunny Singh banned me on their www.sikh-history.com site after my long response that exposed Ghullighars and Doabias for what they really are. Truth hurts. Presenting a Jat view alone is enough to warrant a ban? What gives? They use the Sikh religion to spread hatred against all Jats. They have in the past insulted Haryana Jats too.
I will resurface on the Ghullighar site shortly to express my views.
JohalJatt:
Thanks for banning me on jattworld too without notice. If this is a khalistani site then I want no part of it. You can find me at a real Jat site: jatland.com
Jai Hind Jat Brothers !
Sat Sri Akal Mr Birk.
I just had a good long look at jattworld.
Seems like a real crap site.
Wouldnt waste my breath on being banned from there.
The only 2 people that keep that Canadian-babbar khalsa fan-club website alive with any intellectual debates & comments post here as well.
This place is better - because as well as those 2, we have many intellectual elders with a good grounding of Jat history and Jat life as it is India - Dudhee Ji, the Colenel Sahibs, Dr Birbal Singh etc.
Those guys on JW have like, punjabi khatris and lubanas and sainis on it?! Not to mention punjabi hindus in disguise saying all sorts of stupid ass comments.
Rehn de veera! Ethe hi reho!
Sat Sri Akal.
ravichaudhary
October 15th, 2004, 07:04 AM
Ramandeep
That was uncalled for
They are quite decent people.
There will be always be some who could use some more information .
Your task is to help , not create misunderstandings
Try and interact with them.
Ravi
chhoraharyanada
October 15th, 2004, 02:29 PM
Hi Ravi Bhai,
Kya bathao?
My dad was Arya Samaji Army wala Jat.
I am from Haryana. I am somewhat pro-Haryana on the water issue.
I'd be a real hit on that site!
I can see it now - "hindu this, hindu that", "bahman this, bahman that", "sell-out this", "sell-out that".
I'll just get really worked up, get hacked off and spend too much time posting messages that wont even be read or listened to!
I really really dont support the khalistan issue AT ALL. I'm probably not as far-right as Mr Birk, but can quite understand his stand point. And discussing it with babbar khalsa's canadian-based fan-club is like trying to teach an ostrich how to fly. It is a serious waste of time and energy. Half those people probably havent even been to India, and if they have it won't tally to more than twice each. Why discuss things with people who are clueless and not willing to listen??
Trust me I have been on plenty of sikh sites. It is all the same thing. Whilst I admire your attempt to unite Jat Sikhs and Hindu Jats of Haryana (which is also something I agree with and would like to see) - it is unlikely to be happening on that site. Vaha pe tho log bahuth gatiya cheeze likte hain. koi saini post karta hai ke kisi haryana affsar ne kisi singh ke mooh pe pishaab kiya ar uske baad sab canada-alo india ko arr hinduo ko gaalia dene lagte hain. chorro bhai! bina baat apne aap ko tension dilwa doge. unko apne 'flights of fantasy' mein rehne deo.
Ram Ram Ravi bhai.
ravichaudhary
October 15th, 2004, 05:13 PM
Because some people spread garbage,
is all the more reason to partcipate and shut down these type of people,
or their version is what will prevail, and become the mainstream view
Note logic and facts will always win out in the end
Note also that as you particpate and present facts, people who would stay away earlier start to take part
Gradually sense will prevail, if sense is presented.
ajat
October 15th, 2004, 11:20 PM
Hi Guys,
I think we can close the rift between Jat Sikh and Hindu Jats, but I don’t think we can ever have consensus on opinions. It can be advantageous to partner up against a common enemy, but in peace time – these two groups will forever be separated.
Best Wishes,
hsbirk
October 16th, 2004, 08:53 AM
Ramandeep you are right JW is crap
My original purpose for posting here was to create dialogue between Jats of Haryana and Punjab.
I am a realist. I know that due to state issues like water sharing that the 2 groups will always remain separate but that should not stop us from talking.
As you can understand having fought real terrorists with my own bare hands I can never accept such people's opinions who want to split up my motherland. NOT A SINGLE INCH OF IT!
These people ignore what terrorists did. Look at www.punjabtrauma.org
How many of them lived in Punjab during the 1980's ? It was a nightmare for normal residents of Punjab to live their lives during that time. All thanks to Khalistani terrorists.
They are Jats in name only
They are not sardars. They are far from it.
They are doaba Jats who are getting dominated in doaba by Labanas, Sainis, Mahtons, Chmar. What kind of a Jat has little or no land? These doaba Jats are always flocking to leave for abroad because they have nothing in land holdings. Don't take JW to be representing real Punjabi Jats of Malwa. Malwa Jats run Punjab.
If fighting for one's country is a crime then I am guilty. So is former Police officer Simranjit Mann, former CM Badal, current CM Amarinder. All are Jat Sardars. Doaba Jats can't even compare to the lifestyles of these people's servants. That is how different and how low a standard of living Doaba Jats have in relation to us Malwa sardars.
hsbirk
October 16th, 2004, 09:03 AM
Half those people probably havent even been to India, and if they have it won't tally to more than twice each. Why discuss things with people who are clueless and not willing to listen??
Ramandeep:
That is why I don't care about them banning me. They don't matter. The only votes that really count at the ballot box is Malwa Jats. How many Punjab CM's from Malwa Jats v.s. Doaba Jats? As soon as I announced there that I was a former Black Cat paramilitary and former Police officier they lost mental control and couldn't handle it. That is what lead to my ban.
I am not far-right. My views are the same as anyone that has served in the Army, Police or any other national service for government.
What I say to the Jattworld crowd is if you want to fight for khalistan then rather talking this stuff on internet let's see you get on a plane and go fight India's Nuclear-armed army.
ravichaudhary
October 16th, 2004, 09:07 AM
Mr birk
are you trying to create trouble between the jat of punjab, malwa and the Doab and elsewhere?
Are your really a Virk Jat?
Be careful with your answer, you may be asked to provide verifiable evidence
FYI
you have not been banned form Jattworld. so please stop making such a big issue of it.
So far the moderators here have been quite tolerant,
They just might ban you and that would be a pity
Ravi Chaudhary
hsbirk
October 16th, 2004, 09:13 AM
Buddha Prakash is, I believe, a historian from the Panjabi University – Patiala. He is most noted in his belief that Chandragupta Maurya was a native of the Panjab. He is not a Jat, maybe a Khatri or Baniya.
Sunny-Singh:
what do you say to this link?
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/iranic_identity_of_mauryas1.php
hsbirk
October 16th, 2004, 09:23 AM
Mr birk
are you trying to create trouble between the jat of punjab, malwa and the Doab and elsewhere?
Ravi:
No that is not my intention. I am only stating the truth. Facts back me up. Malwa has more land and therefore bigger farms. Doaba people have in fact been leaving in droves for abroad because in India they would be killing each other off for a mere inch of land. Their areas are dominated by Kamboh,Lubana,Saini and churha chmar. Chuhra chamar make up 50% of their doaba population. Our Malwa area as well as Majha region are run by Jatts. We dominate these areas almost in its entirety and in every way possible. Is it my problem that people can't handle such painful truths?
Are your really a Virk Jat?
Be careful with your answer, you may be asked to provide verifiable evidence
Yes I am who I am. What is your real gotra?
FYI
you have not been banned form Jattworld. so please stop making such a big issue of it.
It is not a really big issue other than they didn't have the decency to hear both sides of the story and just banned without excuse. I am certain that I am banned. I can not even join the site.
ravichaudhary
October 16th, 2004, 06:16 PM
Mr Birk
The moderatpr has posted publically ythat you are not banned
****************
admin Re: Message from HS Birk
Webmaster
Joined: 2003/2/16
Posts: 48
Time 18:54
From:
Reply
The mud that this HS Birk is throwing at JattWorld is absolute Rubbish.
He was Never Banned
http://www.jattworld.com/exoops/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1067&forum=1&start=10
You may be confusing this with another site sikh-history.com
*****************
Undoubtedly you are arousing strong emotions.
A little less aggressiveness may not go astray.
On Goth
we are Brebhan( Solanki),
Nana]s side - Sehrawat
Ravi
hsbirk
October 17th, 2004, 04:57 AM
Ravi:
It is very easy for them to claim now that I am unbanned. They never wanted to hear my side of the story & just banned me. I will not goto that site that promotes a khalistani agenda that has ZERO support in Bharat. Simplejatt talks a good line but has he ever seen the real face of khalistani terrorists who killed, raped, maimed average folks of Punjab? The government of the time had to act and did the RIGHT THING. I stand by everything I did to fight terrorism. I have nothing to hide.
They claim to be "Jatt"world but promote only Sikhism. I am a Sikh too but if I want to talk about Sikhism I will goto a sikh site. Most real Jat Sikhs are barely observing any tenants of Sikhism. They only have a Khanda on that site. Why not other religion's symbols? Jats are found in Muslims, Hindus and Christians. Why split Jats on religious lines? That makes my blood boil to see how Khatris and Sainis are given prominance on "Jatt"world but Hindu Jats and Jats who are anti-khalistan, pro-india are not allowed.
ajat
October 18th, 2004, 08:57 PM
Hi Birk,
“Sunny-Singh:
what do you say to this link?”
I think there is little proof behind the article by Abbas.
Regarding Doabia and Malwai, admitted the average landholding in Malwa is larger than that in Doaba, but farming yield was traditionally higher in the Doaba Area. Around a hundred years ago, Malwa was not nearly as prosperous – Bathinda would often experience dust-bowls. In those day, Doaba Men, who could not attain a suitable bride would go to Malwa to purchase one.
Nowadays, however, due to the irrigation networks and agricultural skills – the Malwa Jat is on average the richest Jat of the Panjab.
Regards,
chhoraharyanada
October 19th, 2004, 12:57 AM
Ravi bhai,
Ram Ram.
I thought you said that the purpose of going onto JW was to bridge the gap between Sikh Jats and Hindu Jats and create understanding. Ab aapko ek aisa sikh jat mil gaya who is exactly what you're looking for but you are treating him with suspicion ..... kyu???
Mr Birk,
I will re-iterate.
Jatland is infinitely better than Jattworld (From what I have seen).
Ravi Bhai and Sunny Singh Hoshiarpurwale are the only two people who keep that site alive - and fortunately for us, they post here too. In addition, we have Jats here who are from India and are keyed up. Not to mention some elders with some good experiences to share ...
for instance, around election time I was very disheartened that sonia gandhi had won India's elections (mainly cos she was not indian and a christian) but then Dr Birbal Singh (who is Rajasthani Jat, I believe) painted a picture of BJP/RSS that I had not witnessed before.
Sunny Singh,
Sat Sri Akaal veera! tusi kimme ho?
As for this Malwa v Doaba debate .... my 2 cents:
(Chandigarh aside) Jalandhar is a lot more developed than any other Malwain city. Ludhiana is very polluted and from what I have noticed has an ever decreasing Jat population in the city. Lots of hindu dalits and bhappae seem to be taking over.
As for Bhatinda - I have some distant family still there ..... other than the big electro-thermal plant and a big army community, there is absolutely nothing there whatsoever. It seems bereft of any development.
Anyways, just my views ....
Take care all.
ravichaudhary
October 19th, 2004, 07:25 AM
Ramandeep (Oct 18, 2004 03:27 p.m.):
Ravi bhai,
Ram Ram.
I thought you said that the purpose of going onto JW was to bridge the gap between Sikh Jats and Hindu Jats and create understanding. Ab aapko ek aisa sikh jat mil gaya who is exactly what you're looking for but you are treating him with suspicion ..... kyu???
Actually I mean no disrespect to Mr Birk or anyone else.
He has never been banned,by JW, as the moderator there has confirmed in the board and he can post and discuss on that board.
My suggestion is only that he could put his views forward with a little sensitivity. Some people are a little touchy.
There is also no easy way to say what he has to say, especially when some in the audience have already made up their minds
Ravi
ajat
October 20th, 2004, 11:48 PM
Hi Guys,
HSBirk, I think no Jat at Jattworld has a real problem with you being pro-India, but you have often crossed the line with your hatred of Khalistanis, most of whom we know were Jat Sikhs. Obviously if there was no problem with how Jat Sikhs were being treated by the government of India, there would be no need for them to join together and protest. Jat Sikhs are an honorable people who generally don’t do panga for the sake of panga. But if pressed they will do everything in their power to revolt.
Raman, Yeah I agree with the points you raised.
Regards,
hsbirk
October 21st, 2004, 09:44 AM
HSBirk, I think no Jat at Jattworld has a real problem with you being pro-India,
Ajat:
If they are allowed to present their version of Khalistani propaganda then why not the other side of the story?
but you have often crossed the line with your hatred of Khalistanis, most of whom we know were Jat Sikhs.
Shaheed Beant Singh (former CM), Shaheed SSP Ajit Singh Sandhu, Sardar K.P.S. Gill (wartime hero), General Brar, Simranjeet Singh Mann (former Police Officer now MP), Prakash Badal, Amarinder Singh are all Jats and all opposed the Khalistan movement in one way or another.
A traitor is a traitor regardless of caste or religion.
Obviously if there was no problem with how Jat Sikhs were being treated by the government of India, there would be no need for them to join together and protest.
If it was such a big problem then why did not other Jats in the Army, Police, Politics join in with the terrorists?
Jat Sikhs are an honorable people who generally don’t do panga for the sake of panga. But if pressed they will do everything in their power to revolt.
The whole khalistani v.s. India guerrilla war was Jat v.s. Jat. Unfortunately Pakistani spies paid and brainwashed some gulliable Jats to support their idea of Khalistan and it had to come to that. These Khalistani terrorists were going around village to village killing babies, raping daughters in front of fathers, robbing people, killing people in day and night. Have you not seen www.punjabtrauma.com ???? What was India to do? When people were being blown out of busses just because they were clean shaven and thought to be Hindus that was too much. The government had to act. They had to kill off these terrorists who were threatening to split the country. Jat, chmar, rajput it did not matter. A traitor is a traitor. That is a very serious thing. Don't expect us Indians to just sit there and let the Pakistani army walk in. India will never allow such a thing.
Jai Hind!
hsbirk
October 21st, 2004, 09:45 AM
My suggestion is only that he could put his views forward with a little sensitivity. Some people are a little touchy.
Ravi:
People are touchy over terrorism too.
There is also no easy way to say what he has to say, especially when some in the audience have already made up their minds
Why can't we have 2 sides of the story? There is a distorted biased anti-India version of events all over the internet. The ground reality was totally different during the terrorism years in Punjab.
hsbirk
October 21st, 2004, 09:47 AM
As for Bhatinda - I have some distant family still there ..... other than the big electro-thermal plant and a big army community, there is absolutely nothing there whatsoever. It seems bereft of any development.
Ramandeep: have you been to Chandhigahr? If and when Chandhighar is returned to Punjab as promised, it too will fall into Malwa. What is there inside Punjab that is more advanced than Chandigarh?
hsbirk
October 21st, 2004, 09:47 AM
Regarding Doabia and Malwai, admitted the average landholding in Malwa is larger than that in Doaba, but farming yield was traditionally higher in the Doaba Area. Around a hundred years ago, Malwa was not nearly as prosperous – Bathinda would often experience dust-bowls. In those day, Doaba Men, who could not attain a suitable bride would go to Malwa to purchase one.
Nowadays, however, due to the irrigation networks and agricultural skills – the Malwa Jat is on average the richest Jat of the Panjab.
Ajat:
Doabias were beginning to flee their region in the early 1900's. Why do you think they did that? They had low land holdings then and now. I have heard the reverse where Malwai Jatts have bought doaba brides. Generally Malwai don't like to associate with Doabia because they are poor and their social standing in their own area is almost non-existant with some notable exceptions. Sangha farms of Doaba is one such example. The Malwa Jat is not only the most richest, but also the most educated, most politically active and most influential in Punjab.
hsbirk
October 21st, 2004, 09:53 AM
http://www.flight182.com/
This site details how Canadian-based terrorists asking for Khalistan had bombed a couple of planes in 1985 and killed over 300 including some Sikhs too. One of them admitted it: http://www.flight182.com/news210.htm
Do you still deny Khalistani terror ?
hsbirk
October 21st, 2004, 10:00 AM
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/kpsgill/terrorism/Sep16TOI.htm
I am in total agreement with Sardar K.P.S. Gill on the following:
"One of my overriding beliefs, in the context of Khalistani terrorism in Punjab, was that Sikhism and terrorism were essentially incompatible, and I had said repeatedly that no true Sikh can be a terrorist; no terrorist can be a true Sikh. This had earned me the opprobrium of many of my fellow Sikhs, but it remains my unshakeable conviction that the same is true of the followers of Islam; the Islamist terrorists insult and violate the basic tenets and humanism of their Faith through their actions."
d1e_slow55
October 21st, 2004, 02:39 PM
Ajat, this couldnt of happend often, rarely hear/see Doabi/Malwai relation bro :S
chhoraharyanada
October 21st, 2004, 09:38 PM
Sunny Singh,
To crush a Jat Sikh rebellion, or any Jat rebellion for that matter ...... you need Jat Sikhs to do it.
I think its naive of those fellows on JW to assume that Jat Sikhs serving against the khalistan movement were not going to use underhand tactics. Secondly, its even more naive to think that these Jat Sikhs are limited to a few names (eg famous names like KPS Gill and Ajit Sandhu etc) that you could count on one hand. Oh, and now one more in this fellow, Birk. Nope. Thats silly. These guys were and are there in their thousands upon thousands.
They are the ones still living in India. Facing day to day indian problems: water shortages, power cuts, increasing fertilizer costs, christian missionaries and the other kuth-poona that emantes from bollywood. They're NOT the ones sat several thousand miles away in Southall, Birmingham or Vancouver or sunny california with Shamu the killer whale.
Mr Birk,
Banging on about Chandigarh being transferred to Punjab is not going to win you many friends on this site.I spoke 2 lines in Punjabi to sunny singh and it offended somebody - but that is going a bit over the top.
Remember that this site is 99% hindu jat (significant number from Haryana) - lets not hurt anyone's feelings. If there are any issues - then bring them up nicely and politely.
Awhile ago, some guy from JW (who's probably a Sikh Rajput in disguise judging by his 'goth' ) came onto this site and started acting really dumb. Saying crap like 'haryana is stealing punjab's water', 'oh we are closer to punjabi muslims' etc - defeating all the principles of jat unity / jat ekta. Probably a non-jat khalistani sardar a la mode Jagjit Chohan (ooops did I give his surname away ...)
Dont go down that line. Lets strive for some hindu jat - sikh jat unity. Something useful and something attainable - not some fantasy punjabiyat alliance with pakistani sayeeds and rajputs. Like how the slimeys, sorry sainis, of JW would like to see. Salah aaloo-mattar bechan walah!!!
Take Care bro!
Rab rakha.
Sat Sri Akal to all Jat Sikhs and Ram Ram Sa to all Hindu Jaats.
ajat
October 22nd, 2004, 02:54 AM
Hi HS Birk
“Ajat:
Doabias were beginning to flee their region in the early 1900's. Why do you think they did that? They had low land holdings then and now. I have heard the reverse where Malwai Jatts have bought doaba brides. Generally Malwai don't like to associate with Doabia because they are poor and their social standing in their own area is almost non-existant with some notable exceptions. Sangha farms of Doaba is one such example. The Malwa Jat is not only the most richest, but also the most educated, most politically active and most influential in Punjab.”
How long was Malwa under British Rule and how long was Doaba Under British Rule?
Best Wishes,
hsbirk
October 23rd, 2004, 07:05 AM
They are the ones still living in India. Facing day to day indian problems: water shortages, power cuts, increasing fertilizer costs, christian missionaries and the other kuth-poona that emantes from bollywood. They're NOT the ones sat several thousand miles away in Southall, Birmingham or Vancouver or sunny california with Shamu the killer whale.
Ramandeep: this has been my point exactly. These people think and act like armchair generals. have any of them ever fought for the khalistan that they passionately seek?
Mr Birk,
Banging on about Chandigarh being transferred to Punjab is not going to win you many friends on this site.I spoke 2 lines in Punjabi to sunny singh and it offended somebody - but that is going a bit over the top
Talking about water issues won't win me any Haryana Jat friends either but that is mostly due to Punjab and Haryana being neighbors and nothing to do with being Sikh or Hindu.
Chandhigahr was carved out of Punjab state & was promised by Rajiv Gandhi in his agreement with some Akali leaders. That was of course before the Khalistani militancy. How can anyone deny Chandhigarh was carved out of Punjab? I would not lose any sleep if Chandigarh stays a Union Terrirtory or if it went to Haryana as both Haryana and Punjab are still part of India.
Remember that this site is 99% hindu jat (significant number from Haryana) - lets not hurt anyone's feelings.
That is not my intention.
If there are any issues - then bring them up nicely and politely.
Awhile ago, some guy from JW (who's probably a Sikh Rajput in disguise judging by his 'goth' ) came onto this site and started acting really dumb. Saying crap like 'haryana is stealing punjab's water', 'oh we are closer to punjabi muslims' etc - defeating all the principles of jat unity / jat ekta. Probably a non-jat khalistani sardar a la mode Jagjit Chohan (ooops did I give his surname away ...)
Haryana was created out of Punjab. Therefore it does deserve water but water needs of Punjab must be addressed too in a fair way.
You are correct Chohan is not a Jat name. They are rajputs who in Punjab have become mixed with Jats. Jagjit Chohan is a coward. He gives speeches in England. He was afraid to go and fight for khalistan himself.
Dont go down that line. Lets strive for some hindu jat - sikh jat unity. Something useful and something attainable - not some fantasy punjabiyat alliance with pakistani sayeeds and rajputs. Like how the slimeys, sorry sainis, of JW would like to see. Salah aaloo-mattar bechan walah!!!
I agree with you that the average Pakistani who is following Taliban has nothing in common with Jats but many Pakistani Jats are not particularly religious (same as Sikh Jats). They share most of the same surnames as Sikh Jats. Other than religion they are basically the same.
The only difference between Pakistani Virks, Sikh Virks and Hindu Virks is religion. Religion, state, language should not be used to split Jats. A Jat is a Jat is a Jat. All other titles are secondary.
hsbirk
October 23rd, 2004, 07:16 AM
How long was Malwa under British Rule and how long was Doaba Under British Rule?
Best Wishes,
Doaba was under Kapurthala Alhuwalias and Maharaja Ranjit Singh's rule before the British took it over directly after Ranjit Singh's forces were defeated in 1849. Doaba remained under British control for nearly 100 years until 1947.
Malwa was ruled by the Phulkian rajas right up until 1947. British never directly ruled over Malwa. They made a treaty with the Phulkian rajahs. That is why Patiala, Nabha,Jind never went to war with the British.
Best Wishes and Sweet Dreams
chhoraharyanada
October 24th, 2004, 02:49 AM
Ramandeep: this has been my point exactly. These people think and act like armchair generals. have any of them ever fought for the khalistan that they passionately seek?
Talking about water issues won't win me any Haryana Jat friends either but that is mostly due to Punjab and Haryana being neighbors and nothing to do with being Sikh or Hindu.
Chandhigahr was carved out of Punjab state & was promised by Rajiv Gandhi in his agreement with some Akali leaders. That was of course before the Khalistani militancy. How can anyone deny Chandhigarh was carved out of Punjab? I would not lose any sleep if Chandigarh stays a Union Terrirtory or if it went to Haryana as both Haryana and Punjab are still part of India.
That is not my intention.
Haryana was created out of Punjab. Therefore it does deserve water but water needs of Punjab must be addressed too in a fair way.
You are correct Chohan is not a Jat name. They are rajputs who in Punjab have become mixed with Jats. Jagjit Chohan is a coward. He gives speeches in England. He was afraid to go and fight for khalistan himself.
I agree with you that the average Pakistani who is following Taliban has nothing in common with Jats but many Pakistani Jats are not particularly religious (same as Sikh Jats). They share most of the same surnames as Sikh Jats. Other than religion they are basically the same.
The only difference between Pakistani Virks, Sikh Virks and Hindu Virks is religion. Religion, state, language should not be used to split Jats. A Jat is a Jat is a Jat. All other titles are secondary.
Good to hear from you Mr Virk!
With regards to expat Jat Sikhs ... in the UK, I've witnessed 3 key types of Jat Sikh youths.
The first is the ankhy mona jat sikh. enjoys tandoori chicken & big macs and drinks. Is generally chilled out. Not vastly educated (with respect to Sikh history/Indian history and even less, Jat history), but will have pro-Jat views and mildly khalistani views - big fans of bhindrawala.
The second (least percentage-wise of three) group are also mona jat sikhs. These guys are even more chilled out. They wont be as right-wing in their views (some will be of East African origins). Will be the types that date gujarati girls, drink heavily, and be least observant of sikh principles. Are likely to cheer india on in the cricket, get drunk and start fights with whites (england) or pakistanis.
(Personally 3 out of my 4 jat sikh friends fall into this category).
The third of this category - and I have to say,the types I get on least with - are the turbanned ones with long kesh/dharris. They'll be well-educated on sikhism,sikh history and will be bitterly anti-india. These are the ones that occupy all the university sikh society positions and have become the mouthpieces. What is really disturbing about these people is that they are quite anti-Jat in their views. They do not respond at all to notions that Jats are a separate race or identity. Some have even gone as far in sikh societies to promote Jat & non-Jat unions (romantically speaking). These are the types that will make hideous pieces of multimedia .... I dont know if you've seen it, but there's a DISGUSTLY,OFFENSIVE piece of home-made video footage going around on the internet of two singhs (1 jatt and 1 tharkaan) fighting over their kids dating. It is pathetic (they have a tharkaan knocking off a jat sikh's pugree in front of Guru Nanak Ji ... LIKE THATS GOING TO HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE!!!).
This group will sprout crap like Bhindrawala was a better sikh leader than greats like Maharaja Ranjeet Singh. These guys wont stop at Bhindrawala, they're likely to be bigging up the whole crew - Sukhdev Babbar and co.
Anyways moving on ...
I think for the time being, Hindu Jaat & Sikh Jat unity is more important than forming relations with Pakistani Jats. As there is likely to be more interaction with the former. The relationship with the latter is greatly dependent on the relations between Indian and Pakistani governments.
Hindu Jaats and Jat Sikhs have plenty of issues to be dealing with - namely the SYL fiasco.
My personal view is that when Bangladesh/West Bengal/Orissa were flooded, Haryana and Punjab are bone dry and being made to fight for scraps.
The problem lies with the Government's irrigation policy. But as long both respective leaders are happy to stuff their faces with paisa, why give a crap about the farmers and the increasing number of suicides? If there was a unity, it would become quite a force and it could unite - and make those brahmin/banias/lalas sitting in Delhi with their firangi mem sahib take note and think hard on their economic policies with regards to kissan lok. It suits the people in the centre that sikh jats and hindu jaats remain divided.
Remember what Chaudhary Devi Lal (chautala's pop) managed to do when VP Singh became Prime Minister. He united the Jats, Ahirs/Yadavs, Gujjars across UP, MP, Haryana etc and the congress got defeated in the centre.
In the future, there is nothing to say Jat Sikhs and Hindu Jaats cant form alliance and mould the shape and thinking of the farming/kisaan/OBC movement.
Just my 2 cents ...
Ram Ram and Sat Sri kaal.
hsbirk
October 25th, 2004, 10:58 AM
The third of this category - and I have to say,the types I get on least with - are the turbanned ones with long kesh/dharris. They'll be well-educated on sikhism,sikh history and will be bitterly anti-india. These are the ones that occupy all the university sikh society positions and have become the mouthpieces. What is really disturbing about these people is that they are quite anti-Jat in their views. They do not respond at all to notions that Jats are a separate race or identity. Some have even gone as far in sikh societies to promote Jat & non-Jat unions (romantically speaking). These are the types that will make hideous pieces of multimedia .... I dont know if you've seen it, but there's a DISGUSTLY,OFFENSIVE piece of home-made video footage going around on the internet of two singhs (1 jatt and 1 tharkaan) fighting over their kids dating. It is pathetic (they have a tharkaan knocking off a jat sikh's pugree in front of Guru Nanak Ji ... LIKE THATS GOING TO HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE!!!).
Ramandeep I would classify myself as either # 1 or 2 but with no khalistani leanings. I doubt many of those in your # 3 are even Jats. Most non-Jat Sikhs (Khatris,SAinis,Tharkans) try to use Sikhism to take cheapshots at Jats.
If you are in England than I feel sorry for you. England Sikhs are mostly from Doaba. Doaba is the poor region of Punjab and Jats from there are not as well off as us Malwa Jats or Majha Jats. You will find with UK Sikhs that they have large non-Jat populations which are very anti-jat. All in all these people are different from Sikhs anywhere else.
I have seen that video too. That is a cheapshot on Jats. I have made a retaliation video and will post it on a website shortly. You'll love the scene with woodpeckers (bird like animals) who play the role of Tharkans. The thing that offended me the most was how they were drinking alcohol in front of Guru Nanak sahib's picture. Knocking off someone's turban is a serious thing usually resulting in a fight and sometimes people kill each other over such things in India.
This group will sprout crap like Bhindrawala was a better sikh leader than greats like Maharaja Ranjeet Singh. These guys wont stop at Bhindrawala, they're likely to be bigging up the whole crew - Sukhdev Babbar and co.
Bhinderwala was a Jat too. He was an extremist when it came to religion. My personal belief is that he was used by Congress and the khalistanis used his name after his death. What was his contribution to the world? Not a whole lot in my opinion.
Maharaja Ranjit Singh was a Jat first and Sikh second. His kingdom was not a religious kingdom but it was secular. His best generals were French and Italian. Ranjit Singh was one of the few kings in India who was believed to be able to defeat the British. He won 1 war against them and his troops lost another after his death and a lot of doublecrossing. He made a mistake by making treaties with them while he was alive and could have had an all out war with them much earlier and perhaps defeated them.
Sukhdev Babbar is just another irrelevant terrorist. I have put many of them away with my own 2 hands. Nothing special. That movement is dead now. You only hear about it outside of India more often in England then elsewhere. Inside India and Punjab no one talks about such things anymore.
If there is any khalistanis in England then I ask them why they are sitting there and not in India fighting?
I think for the time being, Hindu Jaat & Sikh Jat unity is more important than forming relations with Pakistani Jats.
I agree.
What is needed is a better national water policy but to do get that thing done there has to be unity amongst Kisans (all farmers) all across at least the North and Central parts of India in the form a strong Union. That is the only way it can work. Sir Chottu Ram is someone who tried to do something like this earlier.
TDhillon
October 25th, 2004, 06:35 PM
Good to hear from you Mr Virk!
With regards to expat Jat Sikhs ... in the UK, I've witnessed 3 key types of Jat Sikh youths.
The first is the ankhy mona jat sikh. enjoys tandoori chicken & big macs and drinks. Is generally chilled out. Not vastly educated (with respect to Sikh history/Indian history and even less, Jat history), but will have pro-Jat views and mildly khalistani views - big fans of bhindrawala.
The second (least percentage-wise of three) group are also mona jat sikhs. These guys are even more chilled out. They wont be as right-wing in their views (some will be of East African origins). Will be the types that date gujarati girls, drink heavily, and be least observant of sikh principles. Are likely to cheer india on in the cricket, get drunk and start fights with whites (england) or pakistanis.
(Personally 3 out of my 4 jat sikh friends fall into this category).
The third of this category - and I have to say,the types I get on least with - are the turbanned ones with long kesh/dharris. They'll be well-educated on sikhism,sikh history and will be bitterly anti-india. These are the ones that occupy all the university sikh society positions and have become the mouthpieces. What is really disturbing about these people is that they are quite anti-Jat in their views. They do not respond at all to notions that Jats are a separate race or identity. Some have even gone as far in sikh societies to promote Jat & non-Jat unions (romantically speaking). These are the types that will make hideous pieces of multimedia .... I dont know if you've seen it, but there's a DISGUSTLY,OFFENSIVE piece of home-made video footage going around on the internet of two singhs (1 jatt and 1 tharkaan) fighting over their kids dating. It is pathetic (they have a tharkaan knocking off a jat sikh's pugree in front of Guru Nanak Ji ... LIKE THATS GOING TO HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE!!!).
This group will sprout crap like Bhindrawala was a better sikh leader than greats like Maharaja Ranjeet Singh. These guys wont stop at Bhindrawala, they're likely to be bigging up the whole crew - Sukhdev Babbar and co.
Anyways moving on ...
I think for the time being, Hindu Jaat & Sikh Jat unity is more important than forming relations with Pakistani Jats. As there is likely to be more interaction with the former. The relationship with the latter is greatly dependent on the relations between Indian and Pakistani governments.
Hindu Jaats and Jat Sikhs have plenty of issues to be dealing with - namely the SYL fiasco.
My personal view is that when Bangladesh/West Bengal/Orissa were flooded, Haryana and Punjab are bone dry and being made to fight for scraps.
The problem lies with the Government's irrigation policy. But as long both respective leaders are happy to stuff their faces with paisa, why give a crap about the farmers and the increasing number of suicides? If there was a unity, it would become quite a force and it could unite - and make those brahmin/banias/lalas sitting in Delhi with their firangi mem sahib take note and think hard on their economic policies with regards to kissan lok. It suits the people in the centre that sikh jats and hindu jaats remain divided.
Remember what Chaudhary Devi Lal (chautala's pop) managed to do when VP Singh became Prime Minister. He united the Jats, Ahirs/Yadavs, Gujjars across UP, MP, Haryana etc and the congress got defeated in the centre.
In the future, there is nothing to say Jat Sikhs and Hindu Jaats cant form alliance and mould the shape and thinking of the farming/kisaan/OBC movement.
Just my 2 cents ...
Ram Ram and Sat Sri kaal.
Jus would like to point out the khalistanis in england are filled by jatt sikhs and know their jatt heritage as much as we do but they cant bring that in the open as that defeats what they claim to be standing up for " panthic " and then stand to loose the support of some of their regulars who arent jatt. Just imagine one of them talks about jatt pride, the minority will pack their bags and go as they seem to live in a dreamworld of equality and dream about marrying jattiz.
I have heard the video of the terkhan and jatt was made by a terkhan called randip singh to insult jatts. Damdami taksal are full of jatts as well as akj, have a look at their official posts virtually all are jatt sikhs. Having a round turban is enough to give the image that someone is a bhindrawala supporter. That couldnt be further from the truth nowdays, certain khalistani groups are anti bhindrawala but still push khalistan onto their forums for reasons only they know. the only thing that unites these minority khalistani groups is their goal of a independant state and thats not even clear cut as they cant even agree on religious views. Then there are the nihungs in the uk who also sport round blue turbans and look like khalistanis but are the opposite and say they are warriors of india for more info http://www.shastarvidiya.org/. My personal opinion is the khalistan mumbo jumbo is about lining pockets up and making gullible recruits to collect money and then leg it. lolll. quickest way to become a millionaire. if you look at some of these groups they make their money but make out they aint got a penny.
One guy i knew took amrit when he was 17 the taksali friends he went around with would rip him apart for being a jheer and these were mr singhs with blue round turbans, that led him to almost cut his hair off. On the verge of his depression he met singhs from another group who took him in and even then the poor guy had to form a love relationship outside the gursikhi rehet context in order to get himself married off as the majjority of the sikhs in his new group were malwai jatt.
the 3ho came to england some 12 years ago to form alliances with some of the sikh groups claiming to be anti punjabi culture and pro khalistani , they approached one of the senior panj pyarey ( five beloved) and asked him " we have a number of sikhs ( white) we would like to get married off are you willing to help us intermix with sikhs in your group"? the panj pyara of this group told the white sikhs " go and marry your own" lolllllllllllllllll.
some of the topmost sikh personalities still alive have blatently said its jatts who kicked it in jungs and the ghuligar amritdharis had to swallow their pride over it. theres enuff cases where the jattness just comes out but its kept gupat they dont wanna face that their jatt sikh in the open they wanna make out their against punjabi culture and anything associated to it as they wanna appear as the reformists to make more numbers but nobody wants to know with them 20 years on from 1984.
anyways a lot of jatts i know r also becomin radaswamis in the last 10 years or so. The khalistan agenda is not realistic at all when tallied to reality times have changed and i agree sikh jatts and hindu jatts need to unite. I would much rather socialise with a hindu jaat jatt than a sikh terkhan ghuligar.
Top it all off a clean shaven mona jatt sikh or hindu faces what he is and doesnt have no fear of saying what he believes, these mr singhs say one thing and mean another. their living in two worlds when you socialise with people you wanabi as straight with them as they are with you thats near enough impossible with these so called new hardcore sikhs. JATT PRIDE JINDABAAAAAD JATT SIKH AND HINDU HINDU AND SIKH JATTS LETS SORT OUR DIFFERENCES OUT AND BE ONE SAVA KHAP STYLI
TDhillon
October 25th, 2004, 06:36 PM
that post was by ramandeep how did choraharyana end up on that wooopz
chhoraharyanada
October 25th, 2004, 06:44 PM
that post was by ramandeep how did choraharyana end up on that wooopz
Same way TDhillon did on yours!
:D
Anyways - good post. Interesting points.
Tell me more about Nihangs ..... not so much what they believe in (Dasam Granth, 24 avtars of Visnu etc) ..... but more, of what ethnic origins do they belong to?
Correct me if I am wrong - but I believe they are to be met with in great numbers in the state of Maharashtra?!
On hindu jaat - sikh jat unity ..... I agree with you 110%!!!
Sat Sri Akaal.
TDhillon
October 25th, 2004, 07:38 PM
I am intersted to learn more about hindu jaats and sikhs in moghul times. I have read that hindu jaats were part of banda bahadurs army yet no sikh book has mentioned this yet historians on the subject have. This means our hindu jaat brothers have given kurbaniya and have not been recognised by the people writing up sikh history. what an injustice!. our brothers are insulted on the water issues by khalistanis and not even mentioned once in sikh history. Hindu jaat and sikhs before the british raj must have had some connection as punjab and haryana were close jaat country. Jaat customs at the time were very similar to sikh jatts. Some sikh gotras hail from haryana such as uppal.
from what i know the south indian nuhungs ones are local majbiz whilst if u look at the pics on the shastervidia site some of them look like tall broad athletic european looking too . I believe some of the dals are dominated by punjabi sikhs too like the tarna dal and haria vela dal whilst the budda dal is headed by a khattri. Some khetti vari only do it for 6 months then do chakarvyu ( nomadic life) for the rest of the 6 months with the nihung dals. The uk the majority of nihungs are pure anakhi jatts and have had major friction with khalistanis even though they look the same. If u click on the sarbloh site on the link section of shastervidia the khalistani groups have given death threats to the website owners but are yet to do anything lolll. the khalistani steam is long dead.
I rate the south indian nihungs more than most sgpc sikhs or any khalistani because they in spite being a tiny minority compared to muslims kicked against them when the muslims burned the nishan sahib down 2 years ago , the nihung and south indian sikhs kicked axx. Now thats something even the khalistani sikhs cudnt even do in the uk where muslims call the shots only twice their number while south indian sikhs barely number 10 000 compared to 140 million odd muslims spread over india. recently the sgpc have been vandalising walls of sikh temples in india that contain ancient murials of ram and krishna dating back to the gurus and maharaja ranjit singh reign, they dub walls with white paint as per their british raj nurtured victorian nature. The sgpc came to overtake a nihung gurdwara in south india recently and found themselves up against 300 nihungs with spears and axes, the sgpc had to leg it. Now thats south indian sikhs, what have terkhans given us disguised as panjabiz?
YARI JATT JAAAT THI FOREVER
junnu
October 25th, 2004, 08:00 PM
Hi Ishwar Bhaisahab,
"Es Baar to aapne sare point le liye !!
Thats a very kind thing to say about my Dad,
Col.(Dr.) Prem Singh Chaudhary (Retd.) Atleast someone remembers his good efforts.
Three cheers !!
Satvir Ji,
First of all, Jats are Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims
Let me give some background of Dara Singh Ji.
In 1980 (approx) Jat Samaj was started in Mumbai. Founding members where very smart people. We have cream of the community in Mumbai, successful in business, services in civil and armed forces.
They said we do not mind working, but we need Leaders and the Money to run the samaj.
One of founding members I know is Dr (Col) Prem Singh. They did not have people of high profile from their own stock in Mumbai. Dharmendra's family is Arya samaji. His mother helped to build the samaj. They started a annual cultural programme "Sitaron Ki Sham presented by Jat Samaj". .
Because of these great souls, we do not have election problems. Now tell me what is harm
Regards
-------------------------------------------
ishwarlamba
October 26th, 2004, 04:06 AM
Junnu Jiji,
I am very happy to contact you after so many years. Last month Praveen contacted me. I am happy to know you are settled in USA. Long back Late Capt Bhagwan Singh (IAS) told about you.
Your mother and father are really great, I am very proud of them.
Write on my email ishwar_lamba@hotmail.com, your Kanta aunty will be very happy.
Sukhi Raho behenji
regards
Ishwar Lamba
--------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ishwar Bhaisahab,
"Es Baar to aapne sare point le liye !!
Thats a very kind thing to say about my Dad,
Col.(Dr.) Prem Singh Chaudhary (Retd.) Atleast someone remembers his good efforts.
Three cheers !!
vardaan
October 26th, 2004, 09:49 AM
heloo to all ma peeps in here !! new here ...been followin 2 websites lately jatland and jattworld get a lotta laugh readin stuff on both sites but neways a lil bout ma self im a hindu jat but as mr birk put it jat first and religion second , there are soo many fags that i come across on the web that keep puting the jat name down mostly banias and bahmans and also some non sikh jats that wanto show how sikhism has helped the jat kaum lol ..wake up pepl its not ur religion not ur country not ur boli that matters but the fact that ur a jat ...juss cause ima hindu don mean **** to these bahmans ...sikhs were the people who fought the moghuls for these folks and what they get '84.. so id suggest pepl get out of the whole being religious issue kno who ur own bloood is ...the armed forces of both the countries india and pakistan is dominated by jats and they die day in n day out for what ...jats in panjab n haryana are fighting over the cannal when there r floods in the east like wtf..
time to forget the difrences and do somethin worthwhile if jats can settle their difeerences thy can shke south asia juss like their invading ancestors did !!!!
TDhillon
October 26th, 2004, 01:16 PM
welcome to the forum satyendar bhai im new here too. ur exactl;y right its jats that are used in wars. But i still feel its a great injustice that jaats of haryana are not recorded in sikh history as gallant men who fought with sikh jatts in banda jis time and purposely divided from sikh jatts by the book writers. i have zero respect for neo khalistanis, their mentality wreaks of hating hindus.
Jatt identity is played down again and again but in reality be in panjab or hariana jats have a distinct way of life, we need unity and one platform in the face of the banias and brahmins.
i dont trust politicians at all, i think if the matter was left between jats of both sides on the water issue they could resolve it, the politicians puropsely keep us divided engineering hate just like the khalistanis. JATTNESS ALL THE WAY!!!!!!
vardaan
October 27th, 2004, 09:30 AM
Pahji cud u elaborate abt the jats fighting along with the sikh jatts ? wud be an intristing read !!
secondly cud some 1 tell me abt king gorkha who had sworn to avenge his fathers death and actually destroyed agra and ransaked akbars grave before throwing his bones in fire !!
hsbirk
October 27th, 2004, 09:34 AM
tDhillon:
Saying that you are a Jat does not itself signal that you don't believe in equality. The problem is that for every other group it is acceptable for them to call each other by their caste name but when a Jat calls themselves a Jat it is a major crime.
Don't waste your time on a defeated movement called khalistan. They can scheme and collect money all they want in foreign lands. In Punjab they will never enter. They are too scared. If they ever did they would get a good response from a Nuclear armed India with 1 billion+ people. These terrorists cannot compete with India in either manpower or firepower.
the 3ho came to england some 12 years ago to form alliances with some of the sikh groups claiming to be anti punjabi culture and pro khalistani , they approached one of the senior panj pyarey ( five beloved) and asked him " we have a number of sikhs ( white) we would like to get married off are you willing to help us intermix with sikhs in your group"? the panj pyara of this group told the white sikhs " go and marry your own" lolllllllllllllllll.
3ho are not Sikhs. They say that Harbhajan Yogi is the founder of the Sikh Dharam. The whole worlds knows that it was Guru Nanak Sahib. Those whites join movements like this for fun for brief periods of time. This is not a life long comittment on their part.
No matter if I become a Jew, Arya Samaj, Muslim, Atheist, Christian, Buddhist, Rada Swaamy or Jain in the end the only thing that matters is that I will remain a Jat. I don't need any religion to change my social status as non-Jats need from Sikhism. Being a Jat is above all that stuff. Religion is just used by anti-Jat elements to divide Jats.
A true Jat has no fear in saying or doing anything. That is what separates a Jat from woodpeckers/ghullighars/chuhra chmar.
Sardar Karoara Singh Virk & Sardar Nawab Kapur Singh Virk are prime examples of everything a Jat should be.
hsbirk
October 27th, 2004, 09:43 AM
...sikhs were the people who fought the moghuls for these folks and what they get '84
Most of that fighting was by Jats. Sikh misls were all run by Jats except for 1 misl.
TDhillon
November 1st, 2004, 03:26 AM
Pahji cud u elaborate abt the jats fighting along with the sikh jatts ? wud be an intristing read !!
secondly cud some 1 tell me abt king gorkha who had sworn to avenge his fathers death and actually destroyed agra and ransaked akbars grave before throwing his bones in fire !!
dear brother i have no info in regds to king gorkha as yet if and when i do i shall surely post it.
meanwhile enjoy your read :)
"Banda’s reception in Haryana (Northeren state of Indian republic), Year 1709
Banda was overwhelmingly received by Hindu’s and Sikh’s at Narnaul, Hissar, Tohana, Sonepat, Kaithal, Samana, Sadhaura and Lohgarh as a leader of national movement and deputy of Guru Gobind Singh Jee.
Hissar:
He was well received by Hindus and Sikhs as a leader of the nationalist movement and deputy of Guru Gobind Singh. Liberal offerings were made to him in the cause of the country
Banda's Troops
Banda's troops consisted of three classes of people. The old Sikhs who had fought under Guru Gobind Singh Jee joined him purely to punish Wazir Khan.They numbered about five thousandsAnother class of Sikhs of about the same number comprised of young men who wanted to punish and plunder the enemies of their faith. The third group of Hindu Jats, Gujjars and Rajputs of about five thousand. Most of them were untrained, raw levies, not fully armed. Banda possessed no elephants, no good horses and no guns. His followers had matchlocks, spears, swords, bows and arrows. According to Khafi Khan the number of Sikhs had risen to thirty to forty thousands after many more become sikhs."
"History of the Sikhs" - Hari Ram Gupta
"Umdat-ut-twarikh" - Sohan Lal Suri
This clearly shows not only did the jaats welcome sikhs, and offerings, a sizeable number also took part in one of the most turbulent times. There are further sources that indicate one of the anandpur battles also contained hindus sikhs and muslims on the same side fighgting the moghuls, and its a known fact in history most of the time its jaats and jatts fighting against the moghuls. There are many qoutes available from british sources who have commented on huriana and sikh customs prevailing at the time.
gauravchaudhary
April 15th, 2006, 11:44 AM
A jatt is a jatt whether sikh or hindu or muslim. religion is a matter of choice. i m hindu but if i like some other religion, i m free to join it.i m also free to deny every religion. but we are jatt by birth. we have our own ethos. we have created societies in india which are the richest in india. look at punjab, haryana, west up and northern rajasthan. people are most well off here. now look at societies which were bastions of corrupt orthodox brahamanical thought... east up and bihar. our societies are better in every sense. even in pakistan, punjab province is the richest which is a jatt bastion.
coming to religion again, most hindu jats follow arya samaj which is a refined form of hindu religion and is opposed by brahmins. however we know that we govern our societies in a better way and have created equitable and rich societies. all jatts- hindu, sikh and muslim must get there act together for now our duty is to take our way of life, our ethos, our warrior spirit around whole indian subcontinent.