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jagmohan
July 5th, 2005, 12:51 PM
This appeared in The Tribune today. Any comments?

Are Punjabis liars?... SC to hear PIL on July 11
T.R. Ramachandran, Tribune News Service

New Delhi, July 4
A PIL by advocate Sonia Sood in the Supreme Court submits that the Lahore High Court in its order 81 years ago in connection with a criminal appeal has characterised the entire Punjabi community as making unreliable declarations even in the face of death. It is highly objectionable, illegal, defamatory, biased and humiliating and needs to be expunged, the petition says.

The petition, which is expected to come up in for hearing in the apex court on July 11, observes that the court has the powers under Article 32 of the Constitution to pass necessary orders if natural justice has been violated as evidenced in the Lahore High Court judgement of 1924 (AIR 1925, Lahore 549).

Contending that the remarks by the then judges of the Lahore High Court against the “inhabitants of Punjab” are not only out of place but irrelevant in the arguments for reaching the said conclusion in the judgement, Ms Sood points out that the special weightage given to dying declaration in Section 32 (i) of the Indian Evidence Act, 1872, “is based on the premise that when a human being is dying and is about to face his creator, the Almighty, then he/she speaks nothing but the truth.

Going by this logic, anybody who has a tendency to tell lies even at his/her deathbed would be the worst kind of human being. Hence it is essential to expunge the said humiliating remarks in the impugned judgement against the inhabitants of the Punjab.

The impugned order of the Lahore High Court in criminal appeal number 395 of 1924 states: “Dying declaration of the inhabitants of Punjab is unsafe as basis of conviction. The inhabitants of the Punjab often in a dying declaration not only accuse the actual offenders, but also include the names of other enemies and hence in Punjab it is not safe to base a conviction on the uncorroborated dying declaration of a deceased.”

The petition maintains that for centuries Punjabis as warriors sacrificed their lives for the protection of their motherland and who today are seeking the protection of the Supreme Court with regard to their rights and dignity.

The petitioner also makes it clear that she has not filed a similar petition in any other high court and clarified that as per the provisions of Section 362 of the CrPC neither the Sessions Court nor the High Court can review its earlier judgement or final order, except for the correction of clerical or arithmetical errors.

Ms Sood has said that as petitioner she has no option or alternative remedy but to move the Supreme Court because Section 482 of the CrPC stipulates that a High Court or a Sessions Court cannot review or modify its earlier judgement or final order.

In elaborating the grounds for the petition, Ms Sood, hailing from a Punjabi family from Moga which traces its lineage over the past 300 years, believes that the defamatory remarks of the Lahore High Court judgement is violative of Article 14 (Fundamental Rights) of the Constitution and the principles of natural justice and equity. Furthermore, Article 21 of the Constitution ensures every individual the right to live with dignity and respect.

Then, Section 32 (i) of the Indian Evidence Act does not discriminate the person who makes a dying declaration on the basis of caste, creed, religion and community.

The then judges of the Lahore High Court also did not afford an opportunity to the Punjabi community to be impleaded as a party. This again is violative of the principle of “audi alteram partam,” a rule of natural justice.

As the impugned order has set a precedent and is being followed by the trial courts, it is imperative that such discriminatory and illegal remarks should be expunged. Ms Sood has also cited precedents whereby the Supreme Court has directed the High Courts to exercise judicial restraint and expunged objectionable remarks.

Even as the Union of India and Punjab are the respondents, the petitioner, besides praying for expunging the remarks of the Lahore High Court judgement against the “inhabitants of Punjab” has contended that the Centre should adequately compensate the Punjabi community as the Supreme Court may deem fit.

rkumar
July 5th, 2005, 02:17 PM
I also read this news. General public impression about Punjabis is no different even today. However, branding whole community Liar is ridiculous. There are always good and bad in every community.

RK^2

raj2rif
July 5th, 2005, 02:45 PM
I agree with Dr. R Kumar's observations. I have said again and again that we can't brand entire community because of few individual's behavior.

ramksehrawat
July 5th, 2005, 04:39 PM
Though it is not good to brand the whole community, the fact is that people all over India look askance at Punjabis. This mistrust is of their own making. I remember elders teasing or warning against young college going boys in villages for their friendship with Punjabis. "yeh punjabi isse dhokhebaj/chalak se ho sain" was and still is a common perception amongst our own community.

sumitsehrawat
July 5th, 2005, 06:43 PM
..nice topic.

Oh....lemme share this.

I am a bit shy kind-of guy. I still remember, year and a half back when I left home for Bangalore, my grandfather and father both warned me "beta sambhal ke rehna......zyaaada bhola bhaaala ban ne ki zaroorat nahi hai ......yeh punjaabi tereko bech ke kha jayenge".

As, for me, it was the first time out of my hometown.......quite naturally, I had numerous "bad" experiences which made me learn many things in life. But as said earlier, it is very sad and bad to know that the entire community is blamed because of some individual's doings/actions. That's really absurd.

Today, I can boast of few "really good" Punjabi friends too.

regards,
Sumit

rkumar
July 7th, 2005, 01:25 AM
Just an afterthought on the said judgement. Punjab of 1924 included present Haryana, Indian and Pakistani Punjab and Himachal Pradesh. I wonder what learned judges meant by word Punjabi ? Did they mean everyone living in Punjab of that time or only those speaking Punjabi language? Were judges Indian or British?

RK^2

haryanajat
July 7th, 2005, 08:49 AM
..nice topic.

Oh....lemme share this.

I am a bit shy kind-of guy. I still remember, year and a half back when I left home for Bangalore, my grandfather and father both warned me "beta sambhal ke rehna......zyaaada bhola bhaaala ban ne ki zaroorat nahi hai ......yeh punjaabi tereko bech ke kha jayenge".

As, for me, it was the first time out of my hometown.......quite naturally, I had numerous "bad" experiences which made me learn many things in life. But as said earlier, it is very sad and bad to know that the entire community is blamed because of some individual's doings/actions. That's really absurd.

Today, I can boast of few "really good" Punjabi friends too.

regards,
Sumit
mere vichar mein punjabi langauge makhan marne ke liye perfect language hae. jab log suntaee haeen too kanoon aur dil ko bada accha lagtaa hae (meetha meetha :D )wohe baat jatu language mein boleen too kanoon aur dil ko badee dusri tarah see lageegee - ek tarah see rough just like german. :D

jagmohan
July 11th, 2005, 01:02 PM
Here is the latest on this.....

'Punjabis are liars'. SC won't change it!

Press Trust of India
Posted online: Monday, July 11, 2005 at 1156 hours IST
Updated: Monday, July 11, 2005 at 1211 hours IST

New Delhi, July 11: The Supreme Court today refused to review an 80-year old Lahore High Court judgement casting an aspersion on Punjabi community, saying the 1925 verdict was made at a "particular" time and under "peculiar" circumstances.

Disposing off a Public Interest Litigation (PIL) in this regard, the court ruled that the observations made by the Lahore High Court then were general in nature and cannot be said to be made against one community.

The Lahore court had observed in the judgement at one point that "Punjabis were liars."

jagmohan
December 27th, 2005, 10:21 AM
UK minister clarifies on ‘offensive’ remarks
Tribune News Service

New Delhi, December 26
A Delhi based Supreme Court lawyer has succeeded in getting a clarification from the British Government on an 81 year-old offensive prouncement by a British Bench on the Punjabi community.

Sonia Raj Sood petitioned the British Government last month to expunge the remarks from the law books in Britain. She is more than satisfied with the response to her petition to Foreign Secretary Jack Straw. The Minister in charge of relations with India and Pakistan in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) has responded to the petition, clarifying that the remarks “bear no relation to the policies of this government.”

The letter further states that since the verdict was pronounced by the Lahore High Court, it has “never been binding upon any of the courts in England and Wales, Scotland or Northern Ireland and does not form part of the law of these countries.”

sampuran
December 28th, 2005, 02:23 AM
The verdict by the Supreme Court was bad. Lahore High Court was under the British, it was not an Indian observation. In some respects it is bad that we did not make a clean break from British practices at the time of independence. Could be because of the comfort Nehru felt in their company. It was shameful that INA soldiers were declared as anti national by the British, and Nehru refused to let them serve in free India's armed forces. In no country of the world such kind of treachoury would have happened with the freedom fighters, as we saw here. Also other people kept quiet. That was worse.

It will be interesting to find what the
Punjabis think of non-Punjabis !

spdeshwal
December 28th, 2005, 05:33 AM
Sampuran Bhai,

i fully agree and support your observations but on one account.

Are you sure that INA soldiers were not allowed to serve in free India's Aemrd Forces?

Also, i agree with you on supreme courts verdict that it was in bad taste but ideally the petiton should have been filed in the Pakistani Supreme Court to expunge the remarks made by than Lahore High Court.

Every community has its black sheeps and Punjabis are no exception.

Courts were not impartial than and always worked under the influence of their boses (Executive), that might be Viceroy, Governor General or Ditt. Administration.


Sateypal

sampuran
December 28th, 2005, 04:05 PM
Deshwal Bhai Ram Ram.
INA soldiers got recognition as freedom fighters only in 1971, their being allowed into the armed forces before that is out of question.

Punjabis may have been unreliable when it comes to working for the British interests is concerned. That is understable. British were colonisers and racist. Why should proud people connive with their occupiers ?

Today it is unbecoming on our part to talk about the Punjabis in the same tone. We forget and fail to appreciate the tragedy that Punjabis went through at the time of partition. How many Jats are 100% sure that they will remain righteous after having gone through what the Punjabis did in 1947 ?

raj_rathee
December 28th, 2005, 11:02 PM
Saw a couple of posts above that said that branding an entire
community is wrong. I agree to that in spirit.

However the truth is that evolved brains (whether human or not) inherently
work like that. We find patterns through our observations and then extrapolate these learned patterns to situations (and people) that
we may not have previously encountered. When it comes to people, this
is known as stereotyping. And it is a healthy defence mechanism that
we have evolved over time.

Of course, we need to also realise this and be aware of it so that
we do not unfairly apply these stereotypes blindly, but that we
use them judiciously in sizing up unfamiliar people and situations.

dndeswal
December 31st, 2005, 10:11 PM
During our student days at Rohtak city, myself and some others of rural background had concluded that our Punjabi classfellows who were living in walled city, were no inferior fighters than we guys. Frequent strikes at Medical College and other institutions were mainly caused by citywallas, not the Dehatis. Those of them employed in the Medical College Hospital, used to harrass the patients from rural areas whereas their own kith and kin were favoured a lot.

I had asked my dadaji what was wrong with those Punjabis who were living in Rohtak city whereas those in Bhiwani, Panipat etc. seemed to be nice guys. He told that those in Rohtak city were the 'Jhangi' clan and that this sub-group was so cunning and rough & tough that British administrators in 1947 had deliberately put all of them in Rohtak city - "Yeh sirf Rohtak ke Jaton ke bas mein hi aa sakte hain" !

If some of my classfellow reads this comment, please excuse me - my intention is not to hurt somebody's sentiments. But the sentiments of our elders and their views in this regard also carry some weight.

- Dayanand Deswal

jitendershooda
February 28th, 2006, 08:57 PM
I had asked my dadaji what was wrong with those Punjabis who were living in Rohtak city whereas those in Bhiwani, Panipat etc. seemed to be nice guys. He told that those in Rohtak city were the 'Jhangi' clan and that this sub-group was so cunning and rough & tough that British administrators in 1947 had deliberately put all of them in Rohtak city - "Yeh sirf Rohtak ke Jaton ke bas mein hi aa sakte hain" !


Kaya aaisa hai Deshwal ji .... its true that majority of punjabis (refujees) are of this type but not all.

Aisa har us nasal ke saath hota hai jo kahin se migrate/flee hoke jati hai ...for example Bengalis who come from bangladesh, muslims those went to pakistan from our side known as muhajirs ....all these have captured the economy whether by hook or crook..and this is the fact that when a person have nothing to loose then he will try hard to rise and thus increasing corruption and fall in culture.

Wo CH. CHOTU RAM ji ne kahi thi .. ek baar aapne kissan mile us te ek jee ye KIRAD (BANIYE) JEEN NA DETE ......

TO CHOTU RAM JI NE JAWAB DIYA EK ...TUMNE KIRAAAD TE DEKHE NA HAI ...KIRAAD TE DARIYA PAAR RAHE HEIN.

dndeswal
March 1st, 2006, 02:25 AM
Kaya aaisa hai Deshwal ji .... its true that majority of punjabis (refujees) are of this type but not all.

Aisa har us nasal ke saath hota hai jo kahin se migrate/flee hoke jati hai ...for example Bengalis who come from bangladesh, muslims those went to pakistan from our side known as muhajirs ....all these have captured the economy whether by hook or crook..and this is the fact that when a person have nothing to loose then he will try hard to rise and thus increasing corruption and fall in culture.

Wo CH. CHOTU RAM ji ne kahi thi .. ek baar aapne kissan mile us te ek jee ye KIRAD (BANIYE) JEEN NA DETE ......

TO CHOTU RAM JI NE JAWAB DIYA EK ...TUMNE KIRAAAD TE DEKHE NA HAI ...KIRAAD TE DARIYA PAAR RAHE HEIN.

Yah baat kati theek sey jitu bhai. Par mhare badde nyuun kahya karein the - woh time doosra tha. Par Bhai, eib tey aapne bhai in sabko (i.e. Bania, Punjabi etc.) business mein bi pachhadd rahye sein. Many shops in the cities like Rohtak are now owned by Dehatis - earlier, our boys were hesitant to do a petty roadside business - izzat ka sawaal ! Par time sab sikha de sey - kheti tey rahi nahin, eib tey unko chotta-motta dhandha karann mey saram nah aati - nah-ey yo naak ka sawaal rahya - peit pahle aur izzat baad mein. Isi ko kahte hein samay ka her-pher.
.

vikaskundu
March 2nd, 2006, 12:57 PM
these punjabis have really spoiled our society and culture by the adulation and corruption that have erupted out of them.... it has also spoiled sum of our local boyz also .thus i think this debauched behaviour have trespasssed our boundaries also...bcoz of this levelless competiton and prejudiced behaviour... plz comment a solution all u elderly people