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poonam
August 7th, 2005, 11:06 AM
How many of you have ever wondered as to why we have only one female music director in the Indian Film Industry?

Usha Khanna is the only female music director in the ‘Bollywood’ (I like this nomenclature… :cool: ) till now. She has already proven her mettle (remember the soulful music of Agar Tum Na Hote and hits like Chhodo kal ki baaten …) and no wonder her name commands as much respect as other legendry music directors.

I being a movie buff and a music lover too, this thought has crossed my mind numerous times. Couldn’t think of any rationale behind that. Obviously we won’t buy any argument doubting the musical capabilities of females. We have n number of magnificent women musicians who are known to possess talent in abundance.

Why is this gender bias then? Why its only men who pull the strings in bollywood? Why is it almost exclusively male dominated profession.

There is no dearth of talented women musicians then why can’t they make into Film Industry... Is it true that the entry of women is discouraged and frowned upon?
I've a hunch that these men are apprehensive of some sort of competition on entry of women.. :)

Whats the hitch? The whole issue is kind of perplexing for me....
What do you say?

haryanajat
August 7th, 2005, 12:39 PM
Is it true that the entry of women is discouraged and frowned upon?
I've a hunch that these men are apprehensive of some sort of competition on entry of women.. :)

Whats the hitch? The whole issue is kind of perplexing for me....
What do you say?

Hitch#1. The entry of women is discouraged and frowned upon.
Hitch#2. I've a hunch that these men are apprehensive of some sort of competition on entry of women.

dahiyarules
August 7th, 2005, 12:45 PM
Well Madam, dont jump to conclusions. The thought that never crossed my mind was, how many women want to become music directors. If there was gender bias, you wont see even this lady music director pulling the strings. One thing that surely helps in the industry is contacts. But that too just helps the aspirant break in. If you are not worth the flesh and bones, you hardly last in the film industry. Esha Deol could be a good example. Film industry is the most fair labor market. You survive as long as you provide returns in proportional to the investment on you, otherwise the next day you will be on the Delhi Express, back to your parents house.

sansanwalamit
August 8th, 2005, 06:15 AM
Women music directors (known as songwriters outside bollywood) are very rare not just in bollywood but everywhere. The english music industry has a very small percentage of women music directors, although there presence is very high (Madonna, Aguilera and many others) very few of them actually write or make their own songs and music. Similarly in bollywood the most respected and well-known person, a woman-Lata Mangeshkar has also never written music or even lyrics for a single song in her entire career.
Even in history,from Mozart to Tansen music writing has been a heavily male dominated field, we do not hear of any music made by women, although woman have always been used to provide their high pitched vocals with a much larger range which is almost impossible to achieve by men, especially since the end of castrati practices.
Folk, tribal and music of indigenous people shows the similar patters related to music, hardly any culture has women playing musical instruments or producing music, all they do is sing and dance (which are reaction mechanisms to music)
I am not going be judgemental about women's ability to write and construct music due to these facts, but all I can say is that like many other professions talent of creating music is mainly related to male of the species(if nt is atleast dominated by them). I do not know any reason behind it, could be because in the beginning music was a tool of males to attract females, or may be male brains differ from female ones when it comes to music.
But certainly not just in bollywood, in the whole world women are light years behind in music making.

poonam
August 8th, 2005, 06:40 AM
I am not going be judgemental about women's ability to write and construct music due to these facts, but all I can say is that like many other professions talent of creating music is mainly related to male of the species(if nt is atleast dominated by them). I do not know any reason behind it, could be because in the beginning music was a tool of males to attract females, or may be male brains differ from female ones when it comes to music.
But certainly not just in bollywood, in the whole world women are light years behind in music making.

Yes Amit.

That’s precisely my question is. You got me absolutely right.

Lets see if others can up with some more ideas. I believe the idea of difference in the male and female brains in terms of music looks feasible…coz the research has shown the neurological effect of music. Definitely there is a connection in brain and music. Now whether its gotta do something with the sex , as per my knowledge , don’t have any proof yet.

As an add on to my post…
Some studies have shown that music can reduce the need for blood-pressure medications after heart surgery and help babies in the neonatal ICU gain weight! ...the music and healing connection has been shown in the patients with Parkinson's disease.

Exciting research suggests that the brain responds to music almost as if it were medicine. It may regulate some body functions, synchronize motor skills, stimulate the mind--even make us smarter.

No wonder music lovers are smarter than the rest… ;)

rkumar
August 8th, 2005, 11:06 AM
First I was not sure if I have the answer or even I am capable of inventing one. So I just read the posts under this thread with passing interest. However, after reading views and counterviews, my curiosity became deeper and deeper. Here is my logic why one has very few female music directors;

Let us widen our net to other male species in nature and try to seek the answer. As far as I can think most male species make attractive sounds to attract females. Peacock is an interesting bird and so are many more. Rarely the females make sounds to attract males. By this crude logic of mine, we males must have started composing sounds to attract females...so that art goes on under male domination....LOL

RK^2

dahiyarules
August 8th, 2005, 11:29 AM
I dont think I have a single female in my music collection. its kinda unofficial that guys listen to guys music and girls listen to hte girls. i am not sure if this is how it works. but i kinda feel so.

sandeepbalyan
August 8th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Hi,

////// Why is this gender bias then? Why its only men who pull the strings in bollywood? Why is it almost exclusively male dominated profession

I personally think that mens are not stopping womens to be a Music Directors (MD) in bollywood, at present womens are doing well in singing etc., and if influence is something which stops women to work as MD, few of famous female singers, in bollywood music domain have hold of it.

////There is no dearth of talented women musicians then why can’t they make into Film Industry... Is it true that the entry of women is discouraged and frowned upon?
////I've a hunch that these men are apprehensive of some sort of competition on entry of women..

I agree, India is a pool of talent may be any field, but "talent is nothing without an opportunity or try ".
In India opportunity is divided between influence and hard work (with luck),
Their are lots of famous female singers those have opportunity and can become a music director ( kumar sanu as a singer and MD is good male example of that).

I hope industry will have more talented M.D's, may me men or women, music is what i and hopefully all love hearing.

Regards
Sandeep

poonam
August 8th, 2005, 07:25 PM
Looks like we don’t have that many music lovers here… huh......LOL!

Came across this article….here we have some more views:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/dance/anniemac/annie_forum_week10.shtml

Though I do not concur with all the comments ….but worth taking a look!

[one of them says: Creating music requires patience and not all women have it….
Couldn’t help laughing... :) ]

raj2rif
August 9th, 2005, 06:02 AM
I guess the reasons could be opportunities that our women folk had in the past to come out and practice some thing independently. If you see the music directors of the Bolleywood, most of them (not all though) have worked in pairs. Probably it was difficult to make a pair of a man and a women in otherwise an orthodox society of ours. Probably finding another woman to make a music director pair was more difficult as not many women were in the field and if they were probably were no bold enough to take it as a profession. Another aspect could be that they did not get encouragement to practice music, or take it as a profession by their parents while unmarried and by their husbands after marriage. The burden of raising childrem might have also curbed many talented careers. If we see the female artists in music industry most of them have come from the families traditionally practicing music.

In such a scenario, Usha Khanna's effort are praise worthy. May be we will see more females taking up this as a profession. A very good observation Poonam Ji.

poonam
August 9th, 2005, 06:25 AM
I guess the reasons could be opportunities that our women folk had in the past to come out and practice some thing independently. If you see the music directors of the Bolleywood, most of them (not all though) have worked in pairs. Probably it was difficult to make a pair of a man and a women in otherwise an orthodox society of ours. Probably finding another woman to make a music director pair was more difficult as not many women were in the field and if they were probably were no bold enough to take it as a profession. Another aspect could be that they did not get encouragement to practice music, or take it as a profession by their parents while unmarried and by their husbands after marriage. The burden of raising childrem might have also curbed many talented careers. If we see the female artists in music industry most of them have come from the families traditionally practicing music.

In such a scenario, Usha Khanna's effort are praise worthy. May be we will see more females taking up this as a profession. A very good observation Poonam Ji.

Col. Uncle, logical speculation as far as Indian scenario is concerned.

But I still believe that there is something else which is sex/gender specific when we talk about creating music…..coz the male domination in the field of music creation is global as rightly pointed out by Amit. Its mostly men dominated arena all over the world.

Pretty interesting, isn’t it?

rkumar
August 9th, 2005, 11:09 AM
Looks like no one took my logic seriously. I have no doubts that our sex behaviour is at the root of this difference. In today's world where everything has been researched, I saw no reason of not having some original research on this subject. Here are few links to research on the same;

1. http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-abstract&issn=0004-8038&volume=122&issue=01&page=0175

2. http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/3/1124

3. http://pages.unibas.ch/diss/2004/DabsB_6778.pdf

So guys its all in our sexual attitude... I am sure if one spends little more time googling the subject, there will be many more interesting articles on the subject.

RK^2

poonam
August 9th, 2005, 12:01 PM
1. http://www.bioone.org/bioone/?request=get-abstract&issn=0004-8038&volume=122&issue=01&page=0175

2. http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content/abstract/18/3/1124

3. http://pages.unibas.ch/diss/2004/DabsB_6778.pdf

So guys its all in our sexual attitude...RK^2


Hmm…so our hypothesis was not all that wrong…

Thanks for the links Rajendra Uncle.

rkumar
August 9th, 2005, 12:41 PM
Hmm…so our hypothesis was not all that wrong…

....

Correct. So now in conclusion the advice to our Jat males;

Refine your language and make it as musical as you can. Reward would be along expected lines....LOL

RK^2

raj_rathee
August 9th, 2005, 01:05 PM
..............................................

rkumar
August 9th, 2005, 01:57 PM
..............................................

Bhateeje yeh kaunsa raag hai?.....lagta hai Pakke khayal ki teen taal me alaap hai...LOL...ya fir koi Raag Rathi compose kar rahe ho?....hahahaa

RK^2

raj_rathee
August 9th, 2005, 09:38 PM
Bhateeje yeh kaunsa raag hai?.....lagta hai Pakke khayal ki teen taal me alaap hai...LOL...ya fir koi Raag Rathi compose kar rahe ho?....hahahaa

RK^2

:D

Na Chacha, munnae tae jitne Raag compose karne the kar liye. Eeb tae
baalkan ka namber aan do, pehlan eh Jatnian ki kami ho ri sae.

Main tae bas thora hairan sa tha. Nu socha karte ki peese kamai tae gaadi chaal ja sae. Eeb bera pata ki geet bhi gaane padange.

Munnae tae fikar nu ho ri thi ki kahin mahare baalak engineering
er daktri nae chod kae, music appreciation mein enroll hon laag jaan.
Phir unke ma babu isse geet gawaange ki...he..he.....LOL...

:p

raj_rathee
August 9th, 2005, 09:49 PM
Chalo is thread par kucch likh hi diya hae, toh subject par apna opinion
bhi de doon....despite the little that I know about music.

First of all, Amit made some interesting points.

Other than that all I can think is that this lack of female music directors
is probably no different from a lot of other fields of endeavor where women
have traditionally been held back. For example, even now if we were to compare the no. of female professors vs male professors in any university I think we'd fiund a huge imbalance.

I think same goes for many areas. Consider even painting. Wasn't it
true that almost all the great artists/painters were men ?

I think we can come up with many such areas.

So I doubt if we can attribute all of that to biological differences. It
was probably more social. While in some cases women have caught
up quite well, they are still lagging in others...but beginning
to catch on. And music direction may very well be one of them.

At least in the west I think more and more women are beggining to get
into this area.

poonam
August 9th, 2005, 10:08 PM
Raj, you are right.. in a way. But I believe you missed the essence of my post.

I completely agree with your outlook that there is a lack of female counterpart in various other fields due to traditional and social reasons.

When we talk of music do you think we lack female singers? The answer is NO. And its a universal phenomenon…we have plethora of female singers all around the world. Its about creating or making music that I’m talking about where we hardly see any contribution from females. If we presume the problem is social then why is it affecting only in terms of music creation and not singing? So I do not consider this merely a social problem since there are women associated with music but none in creating it.

raj_rathee
August 9th, 2005, 10:25 PM
Raj, you right in a way. But I believe you missed the essence of my post.

So I do not consider this merely a social problem since there are women associated with music but none in creating it.

Well, no Poonam. I didn't miss what you were getting at. Its just that
I don't know much here so was extrapolating based on what I do
know from other fields....in which case we tend to find it to be more
due to social reasons....and in those cases where someone does claim
a biological reason a lot of fuss gets generated from Women's groups.
So any such biological claim gets pooh-pooed.

Remember the episode with the Harvard president, Larry Summers recently ?

It would however be interesting to know if someone has actually done
research on human beings as to what part of the human brain is
involved with "creating" music. And if indeed this creation of music
comes from an area of the brain that is indeed a "male" area.
I mean could music creation be like math, for instance....an area
that is considered to be within the realm of male dominance.

poonam
August 10th, 2005, 12:29 AM
It would however be interesting to know if someone has actually done
research on human beings as to what part of the human brain is
involved with "creating" music. And if indeed this creation of music
comes from an area of the brain that is indeed a "male" area.
I mean could music creation be like math, for instance....an area
that is considered to be within the realm of male dominance.


Got your perspective! :)

I do not deny sex discrimination being one of the major reasons in most of the fields and also I being a woman, obviously, would not wish to greet any idea advocating genetic or innate factors responsible for the gender bias. But what is true is true and the observation regarding music creation is indisputable I guess.

I’m not gonna conclude anything but came across these few studies on human beings which talk about gender differences in music processing (Not to forget…. ..more the number of test subject more reliable the data is):

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12692468&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12598730&query_hl=15

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1778236&query_hl=4

On the other hand we can’t deny the fact that there are evidences about girls outperforming boys in conventionally “male superior” fields like mathematics.
Its kinda complex !! :eek:

[Yes Raj, I remember Larry Summer episode..…hmmm….now I know why you were so skeptical to believe the biological diff. approach…. :p LOL…!!!]

sansanwalamit
August 10th, 2005, 12:55 AM
Poonam,

I have another question or call it stretch which came up while discussing this topic with a female colleague, and I found out that many of the women who are actual musicians (i.e. write and perform their own songs) are either lesbians or bisexual e.g. Billie Holiday, kd Lang, Madonna, Christina Aguilera.
Now why is it so, is it because they develop this talent out of their attraction to females? As in, could their musical talent be attributed to the fact that they behave more like males compared to the other women who do not have such orientations.

poonam
August 10th, 2005, 01:34 AM
Amit, I’m equally amazed as you are.

This is the first time I’m discussing this issue though thought of it number of times before.

Huh…. now its becoming more interesting with you coming up with new question...

I think I can try to justify this depending on the search which I did (the links above). They say that the ability of music making is also correlated with testosterone levels….shocked…me too!! :eek: When it was researched on human subjects it was seen that the music making ability was related to males with testosterone levels lower than the control (avg. level) and in females with testosterone levels higher than the control (mind you women also make it in small amounts though its a male hormone).

If its true then it explains the lesbian or bisexual behavior of women musicians!! :cool:

raj_rathee
August 10th, 2005, 04:25 AM
[Yes Raj, I remember Larry Summer episode..…hmmm….now I know why you were so skeptical to believe the biological diff. approach…. :p LOL…!!!]

Yes, I felt pretty sorry for Larry Summers. Poor fellow.
I just couldn't figure what exactly he said that was
so controversial. He merely suggested the need to further
investigate and research. So much for academic freedom
and intellectual curiosity ! I think all this
political correctness thing is really getting out of hand.

I read through the abstracts of the links you provided.
From what I could make out, there was not much there
in terms of conclusive results. Maybe a closer study
might reveal something. But I doubt it...otherwise we'd
have heard about it.

One thing I will say however about all these studies
is the nature vs nurture angle. All the subjects
in these studies are adults, who already have
gone through the formative stages of their life. i.e.
They have either developed musical talent or they have
not.

Could we then argue that what is being studied is the
biological side effects of the social conditioning ?
If we could argue that then we would have completely
turned the tables here, isn't it ?

What I am saying is that could it be the fact that
due to social conditioning/bias there are more males
who end up pursuing musical talents, and the act of
pursuing these musical talents itself results in the
biological changes that are observed, after the fact ?

Perhaps, we might stretch this a bit further and ask
that given the (assumed) greater biological tendencies
of males towards musical skills, we should see
some proportion of Jat males who are music directors
too. I mean if it is merely a matter of some ideal
level of testesterone, we should have hit the jackpot
a few times by now.

Western society talks about females generally being
inferior in mathematical sciences. Yet, right from
childhood they are given blonde Barbie dolls that
say "I hate math !". Now if these females grow
up to have their so called "mathematical side"
of their brain somewhat less developed, was it biology
or social condiitoning ?

poonam
August 10th, 2005, 06:19 AM
Could we then argue that what is being studied is the
biological side effects of the social conditioning ?
What I am saying is that could it be the fact that
due to social conditioning/bias there are more males
who end up pursuing musical talents, and the act of
pursuing these musical talents itself results in the
biological changes that are observed, after the fact ?

I mean if it is merely a matter of some ideal
level of testesterone, we should have hit the jackpot
a few times by now.


I liked your analysis so much that I hate to counter argue :)
I could have happily agreed to this understanding finally if they had not shown this in the birds where social conditioning does not exist.

[Unfortunately, the testosterone level should be below average (if you go by the research) : so jat male hitting jackpot looks farfetched for the obvious reasons…. ;) ]