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Thread: Missing links in Jat History

  1. #41

    Arabia: Ashvathan The place where Asvathama settled after Mahabharat

    Dear Friends,

    As mentioned many times over, there was a massive migration after Mahabharat war. One main yodha left alive from Kaurav side was Asvathama, the brave son of Guru Dronacharya. As we all know, he was anti Pandav to the core and even killed pandav sons in while they were sleeping. Asvathama migrated to the present day Saudi Arabia and the land was given the name Asvathan with the passage of time. As we know Asva means hoarse also. The word Asva slowly got changed to Arva (which means also horse) and the name of the land as Arvasthan and then slowly Arbistan and then Arabia.

    Asvathama being son of a Brahman called his followers as Rahman. How Krishna brainwashed Arjun in fighting by preaching Geeta became a topic of intense discussion between Asvathama and his followers. This debate gave birth to new philosophy, which evolved over thousands of years. It was from here that the philosophy of killing the no believers (Kafirs) was adopted in Islam. The Holy book of Muslims was called Kuran as against Puran.

    There is mention at may links about the old names of Macca and Medina. If I borrow their version, this is what most of these links have to say;

    "In fact the names of the holiest of Muslim cities Mecca and Medina come from the Sanskrit words Makha-Medini which means the land of Fire-Worship. Even the most ancient names of these 2 cities were Mahcorava- which came from Mahadeva (Lord Shiva) and Yathrabn - which came from Yatra-Sthan (place of pilgrimage)".

    Its worth noticing the old name of Mecca as Mahcorava which drives from Kaurava, but wrongly associated with Mahadeva.


    Rajendra
    Last edited by rkumar; December 5th, 2005 at 03:02 PM.

  2. #42

    Missing links

    RK Bhai Saheb,
    Namaskar. Thanks for those interesting discoveries. Hope you are compiling them for the benefit of masses.

    Two question baffle me a lot:

    1 Why is that since ancient times Arab land has been the breeding ground for all the wrong and immoral practices that have crept into human behaviour. First it was Moses who wanted Jews to do whatever it might take to spread Judaism. Result large scale voilence. Then came St Paul who created the Jesus' myth and incorporated almost identical (albeit to a harsher degree) practices. Christianity also spread by sword, opression and deceipt. Though after the spread of Islam, the Christians also applied same practices during the Imperialistic times. Finally came Prophet Mohammed who surpassed all immorals and gave divine sanctioned to the believers to loot, burn, plunder, rape kill, oppress, sodomise ........ As long as the target were kafirs anything was 'Allah's glory'. The same thing we see all around even today.
    Why all these had to start from Arabia ? Similarly, all these threee prophets are supposed to have climbed a holy hill top to announce their message for the first time ? Why ?

    2. The commencement of Kaliyug is taken to be from the end of Mahabharat war. When Sri Krishna had just finished Geetopdesh, why did that rule of dharam not survive for some more millenia. Why did the degradation start immediately after that ?

    3. The Geeta lists 5-6 example of inhuman behaviour dangerous to the humanity. It says, "whenever a person is seen to be commiting such acts, he should be killed immediately". I guess humanity forgot those words too soon. Thats why inspite of being a Vedic land, Arabians failed to nip in bud the non-spiritual religions like Christianity and islam.

  3. #43

    Missing links

    RK Bhai Saheb,
    Namaskar. Thanks for those interesting discoveries. Hope you are compiling them for the benefit of masses.

    Two question baffle me a lot:

    1 Why is that since ancient times Arab land has been the breeding ground for all the wrong and immoral practices that have crept into human behaviour. First it was Moses who wanted Jews to do whatever it might take to spread Judaism. Result large scale voilence. Then came St Paul who created the Jesus' myth and incorporated almost identical (albeit to a harsher degree) practices. Christianity also spread by sword, opression and deceipt. Though after the spread of Islam, the Christians also applied same practices during the Imperialistic times. Finally came Prophet Mohammed who surpassed all immorals and gave divine sanctioned to the believers to loot, burn, plunder, rape kill, oppress, sodomise ........ As long as the target were kafirs anything was 'Allah's glory'. The same thing we see all around even today.
    Why all these had to start from Arabia ? Similarly, all these threee prophets are supposed to have climbed a holy hill top to announce their message for the first time ? Why ?

    2. The commencement of Kaliyug is taken to be from the end of Mahabharat war. When Sri Krishna had just finished Geetopdesh, why did that rule of dharam not survive for some more millenia. Why did the degradation start immediately after that ?

    3. The Geeta lists 5-6 example of inhuman behaviour dangerous to the humanity. It says, "whenever a person is seen to be commiting such acts, he should be killed immediately". I guess humanity forgot those words too soon. Thats why inspite of being a Vedic land, Arabians failed to nip in bud the non-spiritual creeds like Christianity and islam.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by sampuran
    ........
    3. The Geeta lists 5-6 example of inhuman behaviour dangerous to the humanity. It says, "whenever a person is seen to be commiting such acts, he should be killed immediately". I guess humanity forgot those words too soon. Thats why inspite of being a Vedic land, Arabians failed to nip in bud the non-spiritual creeds like Christianity and islam.
    I differ slightly here. Sermons of Geeta were delivered by Krishna under very specific circumstances and one very important purpose was to make Arjun fight. Virtues of Kstriya dharma were invoked to remind Arjun of his karma. This very technique was followed further and got embedded into Kuran when it justified the killings of Kafirs. Theory remains same, but its applications have been changing to suit the needs of different groups of people.

    Rajendra
    Last edited by rkumar; December 6th, 2005 at 01:42 AM.

  5. #45
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    sir

    i fully agree with u. per itnee khopadee aap me ayyee kahaan se?
    may b the jaats were having 2 much bravery n frankness n khopdi too.

    i'll relate a joke.

    baadshah akbar was roaming around in the night under disguise. met a jaat who was selecting a few flowers for him.

    baadshah said

    "oh, jat if refuse 2 take ur gift. i've a choice frm blkh 2 bukhara n whole hindustan; hindustan was that time hrdly half of india".

    jaat said "na le to apni bhan..."

    nxt day he reached akbar's darbar

    jaat ne akbar ko pahchan liya n akbar 2 recognised him

    "oh jat if i dnt take ur gift wht will u do"
    he said

    "badshah salamutt phir kal vaali baat"

  6. #46
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    rkj

    a large number of jats were deported with their "bhains n bansuri means buffaloes n flute" to baghdad by mhmd bin quasim after 712 ad. "taban" says that as soon as they firmly settled over there they revolted. by blocking basra-baghdad road they rose the price of bread in the capital....
    n they r the originators of modern khurdistan? now designate themselves with gun n flute at least about 25 yrs back. teh avg height is comparable with the scandinavian jatts in khurdistan!

    "n they called him hercules!!!!!!!!"

    many jats in porus army (he was jatt himself) were carrying the image and flag of lord krishna. greek soldiers were baffled and called krishna as hercules.


    they said these r remnants of the warriors left behind in the expedition of hercules.

  7. #47
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    try n google "BUDDHA"

    THE SHAKYA MUNI

    the saka, modern sikarwar jats.
    the lichhavi vansha.

    one lady from them got maried to gupta empire of jats

    samudra gupta

    embedded in his coins.
    sord n veena

    the genious versatile

    defeated hunas

    though hunas were same as shakyas n kushanas

    all following same system in army

    loose dress and long boots

    n then why kushanas started saka era instead of kushan era

    maharaja kanishka

    because sakas were kushans

    the modern kaswan jats of india

    n chinese XWN.

    buddha did live prior to the invasion of kushans n sakas

    that means all saka were not invaders.

    the 1st arya samaji was budha!

    though arya samaj came much later.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by sampuran
    3. The Geeta lists 5-6 example of inhuman behaviour dangerous to the humanity. It says, "whenever a person is seen to be commiting such acts, he should be killed immediately". .

    When Mahabharat was written by ved-vyasa, it had only 10 thousand shaloks. later on so many things have been added to it and today it has more than 100 thousand shalokas. Many of them do not make any sense at all.

    If you are interested in reading the Mahabhart, I would suggest the one written by Swami Jagdishwaranand Saraswati. The shalokas added from time-to-time have been deleted.

    Bhadwad Gita is not a separate book. It is a completely taken out of Mahabharat( 18 chapters from the Bhisam Parva). So it is possible that some false shaloka might have been added to it. But I still want to know which shaloka do you think is dangerous to the humanity?

  9. #49
    Arun Bhai Ram Ram.
    Read this piece in one article. I am still trying to locate that. But the cases were something like
    A person who
    -burns somebody elses house
    -kidnaps somebody else's wife
    -traitor
    -Decieptfully obstucts Dahrmic yagna
    -Shows cruelty to or kills a brahaman (learned) or unarmed person
    -Usurps somebody else's property

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by arunshamli


    If you are interested in reading the Mahabhart, I would suggest the one written by Swami Jagdishwaranand Saraswati. The shalokas added from time-to-time have been deleted.
    Arun

    Where is this book available?

    Who is the publisher, and cost?


    Ravi Chaudhary

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary
    Arun

    Where is this book available?

    Who is the publisher, and cost?
    Ravi Chaudhary
    Ravi, The book should be available on any vedic book store in north India. You should be able to find it in nai sadak Delhi. It is written in Hindi and costs around 1000 INR.

  12. #52
    The mention of Herodot about the jats been the most brave and just was about thracians who was ocupied the most fertile land of Europe(Danube plains for exemple-in interbelic period Romania was call the "grainary of Europe").They was the most numeros people exept indians(of course Herodot didnt know about the number of chinese),and speak about disunity of thracian(they fight tribe against tribe,thats why they are weak).If today thracian have this teritory will be a nation of 150-200milion people(Turkey+Ukraine+Romania+BUlgaria+Yugoslavia) ,just gather the population of this countries togheder.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by smeker
    about disunity of thracian(they fight tribe against tribe,thats why they are weak).If today thracian have this teritory will be a nation of 150-200milion people(Turkey+Ukraine+Romania+BUlgaria+Yugoslavia) ,just gather the population of this countries togheder.

    Sounds like they are true Jats

    Welcome to the family

  14. #54
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    Excellent,you are going the right way.You have got the logic.

  15. #55
    The thracian was split in 2 groups :the south group spread from Balkans to Minor Asia(the most faimous being the frigians)and the north group call the gets(or dachyan)spread in all Carpatian mountains (whit capital of Sarmisegetusa),north of Black Sea(cimmerians)and Central Asia(massagetae).Their war like nature was very apreciate by persians,Alexander the Great(his father thracian,his mother greek)and romans who use them like mercenary.The poet Ovidiu say about this european gets:"they have hard voice,wild face,and their are the true embodiment of Mars(the god of war),their hair and beard was never cut,their right hand is alwais ready to implate the knife(in the enemy),which knife is keep tied at the hip of evry of this barbarians".Also the gets are name by Herodot the most brave and just of all thracians.
    If some say that jats are the descendents of Ham,reminde you that basicaly all peoplle off this world have hamitic genes,so hamitic descendens is something to general to make a identity on that.remember 73%of european genes,80%of indian genes,90%of chinese genes are basicaly hamitic genes.Also european gets warship 3 major gods:Zalmoxes(whit atributes of Shiva),Gebeleizis,and goddes Bendis.Probably from here came the legendary conlclusion that jats are descendens of Shiva hair(see Zalmoxis on wikipedia)

  16. #56
    Did anyone wonder what influence India had over Egypt ? The very name Egypt is derived from word Gupt which shows that it was part of Gupta empire at some point. The Greek word for Egypt is Ayguptos and which has been derived from Gupt. here is the link to my this finding;

    http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Copt.htm

    there is mention in the link that;

    "Copt - The Coptic church is an offshoot of the ancient Egyptian Christian church, one of the oldest Christian churches. In 451 the Copts split from the Catholic church after the Council of Chalcedon, following the Monophysite ("one nature") doctrine of the nature of Christ. The Coptic church is the by far largest Christian group in both East as well as North Africa/Middle East, with over ten million adherents. The name "Copt" (gupt in Arabic) is derived from Ayguptos - the Greek word for Egypt"

    And its well known that Guptas were Jat rulars.

    There are many other similarities between old Egyptian and Hindu religion;

    http://www.kheper.net/topics/Egypt/Memphis.html

    Following from the above link is worth noting;

    "There are also interesting parallels here with the Hindu trinity, viz.

    Ptah - creator (Brahman)
    Sehkmet - destroyer (Shiva)
    Nefertum - preserver (Vishnu)

    In another, although related context, Sehkmet has always seemed to me quite a bit like Kali. Ptah therefore would have a connection with Shiva (as the spouse of Kali).

    The monotheistic element is interesting here as well. In the Memphite Theology it is said of Ptah:

    'He who made all and created the gods.' And he is Ta-tenen, who gave birth to the gods, and from whom every thing came forth, foods, provisions, divine offerings, all good things. Thus it is recognized and understood that he is the mightiest of the gods. Thus Ptah was satisfied after he had made all things and all divine words.
    (Ancient Egyptian Literature, Volume I: The Old and Middle Kingdom translated by Miriam Lichtheim)

    We have here a strongly developed theism, which gives the lie to the oft-asserted statement that Akhenaten was the first monotheist. Ptah constitutes a creator figure, in contrast to Atum is more of an Emanator. Yet this was still within the same overall tradition (albeit with a different deity). There was no cultural break such as Akhenaten attempted. An analogy could be made between, say Kashmir Shaivism (emanationist) and the Vaishvanite (which is more dualistic and devotional). Or like the difference between the God of Mystical vs Legalistic Judaism. Emanationism is more prone to a philosophical based mysticism in which human growth is the key issue, while creation based is more on a creator who gives laws that you must follow. The Hermopolic creation story (in which everything emerges from the primordial Eight or the Nun) is more prone to left-hand path belief systems since there is no pre-existent God, and the Theban seems like it would be purely mystical, with it's abstract symbolism.

    Ptah as the divine craftsman also recalls Judaeo-Christian themes of God fashioning the world, making Adam out of clay, etc. I leave it to the reader to decide whether this similarity is due to diffusion (the Memphite ideas filtering through to the rest of the Mediterranean world) or archetypal convergence (the same symbol or motif reappearing)"




    Rajendra
    Last edited by rkumar; December 11th, 2005 at 07:58 PM.

  17. #57
    [QUOTE=rkumar]Did anyone wonder what influence India had over Egypt ? The very name Egypt is derived from word Gupt which shows that it was part of Gupta empire at some point. The Greek word for Egypt is Ayguptos and which has been derived from Gupt. here is the link to my this finding;

    http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Copt.htm


    The ancient name for Egypt was Misr. That there were Indian- Misr links is not to be unexpected, for Misr was very much on the sea trade route from ancient Bhrat( Sindh, Gujrat,). We know that ther was considerable trade, and large ships were built used.

    The geometry of the Pyramids also shows an Indian origin, for people like Seidenberg have conclusively showed, in their study of the history of mathematics, the Sulabshastras contined the geometric theorems , that were used at Harappa etc for building/town planning.


    The Zinoist site is however going overboard. The sites are well written and SOUND plausible. That is intended.


    The Gupta, or Gupt term has a number of explanations-

    One is that is means ' defender". That suffix makes some sense, for other suffixes are Pal, ( also defender).

    Defender was a common term.

    Then we also think that 'Gupt', is a corruption of "Gut", for the Dharan Jats, knew themselves as Gut or Gutta. Ditto for Chandragutta( sandokottos of the greeks) or Candragupta or Chnadragupta.

    There is nothing wrong with free wheeling thinking.

    One would suggest though, some caution be applied at the same time,and a pinch of salt be kept handy.


    Ravi Chaudhary

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary
    Arun

    Where is this book available?

    Who is the publisher, and cost?


    Ravi Chaudhary
    The book is available on:-
    http://www.vedicbooks.com/

  19. #59
    [QUOTE=ravichaudhary]
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar
    .....The ancient name for Egypt was Misr. ........
    Ravi Chaudhary
    Ravi,

    Just to correct you, Egyptians still call their country as Misr, like we call our country as Bharat. Official name of Egypt is, Junhuriyah Misr al-Arabiyah. Here is a link on the Origin of the Word, "Egypt" ;

    http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/kmt.htm

    As per site, the meaning of Misr is country. As you know, Misr is a hindi word also meaning mixed and possibly the term used for a land where mixed people lived. Interestingly the words Misr and mixed also sound so similer. I wonder if Indian surname Misra has any link with Misr ?

    No doubt, we had ancient trade links with Egypt and other coastal nations. There lot of work which needs to be done to unearth our past links with world. It will need lots of reverse engineering.

    Other most interesting observations one can make from the old names of Egypt;

    1. Deshret = Desh (country) + Ret (sand). Its from here the term desert came it seems.
    2. Kermet = ker (kali=black)+ met (matti= Land). I would even be inclind to interpret this other way. Kauron ki matti (land). Sort of another Kurukshetra...

    There is mention in the history of ancient Egypt that often it was ruled by kings of foeign origin.

    There is a place called Siwa in Egypt. (http://i-cias.com/e.o/siwa.htm). After reading the link, it appears to me that this was a very holi city in ancient times and must have got its name from Lord Shiva's name. It became part of Egypt only in 19th century. Names of three lakes in Siwa, Birket Maraqi, Birket Siwa, and Birket Zaytun sound really interesting. Zaytun sounds very similar to Jat.


    Rajendra
    Last edited by rkumar; December 12th, 2005 at 01:36 AM.

  20. #60

    Missing links - Egyptian connection

    If somebody is more interested in finding that LINK / SIMILARITY between the ancient India and Egypt, please read "Secret Egypt" . Its an old publication, may be sometime in 1960s. I read it about 10 years back.

    It talks of temples and rituals that existed in Ancient Egypt, before the Pyramids were constructed.

    May sound incredible, but it mentions that they had same method of recording an important incident like we have in India - positions of 'naxatras'. They used to put volunteeres to hibernation for days on end and then revive him. Of course, there were accidents too. People could not be brought back to life.

    Also, the foundation laying of such temple was recorded in the above manner and a stone placed near the entranc depicting the same. Working backwards from the position of various naxatras depicted there, some of the dates are as old as 30,000 years!

    I Dont know whether the Islamic brotherhood have left any traces of these in present times >

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