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Thread: Missing links in Jat History

  1. #141
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    n e way plz be cool

    leave my institute that is on the world map due to me only. my biography appears with noble prize winners. i figure among top few scientists of the 20th centiry. n 2000 outstanding people of the world. u can find my pprs by searching google "tewatia on consolidation" n "tewatia in geotechnical engineering".
    n by the way this tewatia is not seudo surname but one of the most prominent ones. google search for "teuton", "teoti-huaccan", "ecbatana" n "teutonic" will tell u that it was more widely spread than aryans. plz try my links that i've earlier suggested in my earlier threads n talks. chaudhary charan singh the ex prime minister of india. was originally from my village, and many more i can name.


    however, i'd like to go thru ur theory or book first. even then my comments are:

    there is no doubt that indus civilization area is same as that of (recent)modern or medieval jats but same is true for aryan and later aryan civilization. PGW (painted grey ware) prove it.

    i dnt know about indus valley people but certainly fr aryans the movement is from west to east. ganges and yamuna are perhaps once or rarely mentioned in rigveda but other punjab rivers, particularly indus, are frequently mentioned.

    horse is conspicuous by its absence in indus valley while all other animals skeleton are found.


    indus valley people were too peaceful but jats are not so.

    however, denial that it did not belong to jats is equally hard.

    the same exports n imports since indus valley r continuing till today. good quality horses were never bred in india n till today india imports good quality horses. exports spices that time also n today also.

    i'll talk to u 2morrow today my dog died in an accident.

    jats were pasupatis

    dangars (pashu), daggers (khanzar), dangers (khatra), dagars (rasta), doggers (dog tamers), all variation of dagar jats.

  2. #142

    which turks?

    which turks are in your mind?
    Name turks can mean original mongoloid turks,central asia turks(like kazahstan) which are a mixture of iranian race and mongolian rase(original turks),or turks from Turkey? Acording to DNA studies today turks from Turkey are 70% the descendents from original inhabitants,and 30%came from somewere Turanic stepe.
    And another qwestion.Which DNA is older? That study specify this?Is like you say american DNA is very similar whit english DNA.English go to USA or was another way around.If you was reading carefuly what i post before maybe you find some intersting informations.But i know is to long and nobody have time to read it.You gona find that agricultores from Mohenjo Daro,Anatolia(Turkey) and Balkan have the same origin ,they came from the same place.Also you gona find that is no diference betwin aryan and iranian(Massa getae,saka,cimmerians,alans).The diference is that some aryans concore agricultural civilisations and settled on them and starting to do agriculture,others aryans which today we call iranians continue to practice a nomadic life.All nomadic tribes before 100AD from Central Asia speak iranian dialects.We have 2 theories why all nomads speak iranian language.1-iranian is original aryan language,and 2-all iranian nomads was influence by agriculrural sanskritic speakers from Anatolia(hittite,mittani)and India.
    The family languages like turk,finno-ugric and mongolic belonge initialy to mongoloide race people.Please dont be confuse.

  3. #143
    .. horse is conspicuous by its absence in indus valley while all other animals skeleton are found.

    Answer: I don't think this is true. Horses' skeltons have been found there.

    indus valley people were too peaceful but jats are not so.

    Answer: This does not sound scietific at all Tavatia sahab.





    RK^2

  4. #144
    Here is an interesting news item which proves that agricultue started in India's gangatic area of Eastern UP almost 10,000 years ago;

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/5...2500000000.htm

    Who knows one might come across other sites which are even older. If submerged city of Dwarika has been carbon dated 9000 years old, agricultue in India has to be much older. Its just a question of locating the remains some where.

    RK^2

  5. #145
    The first chariot(masive 4wheels) was found in Baden Culture in 3800BC.
    The sumerians have a 2 wheleed batle chariot from 2900 BC,and Indus Valey from 2400 BC.This chariots seem to was pulled by donkeys and asses and have no so much speed,as later batle chariots.The first recorded 2 wheell chariot puled by horses is from Anatolia(Turkey)in 1900 BC.
    The oldest centers of agriculture are in Jerichon(Palestine) and Zagros mountains(west Iran).In 8000 BC India was having a population of 600.000 people(Europe was having 300.000 people) most of them australoid hunter-gatherer.Starting from 8000 Bc dravidian agricultores pushed south and replace the australoids from most of India.In 4000 BC agriculture was practice from Himalaya to Tamil land.
    The dravidian was part from the most advance society at that time,spread from Indus-Gange plain,Iran,Anatolia,Balkan,Italy up to costal lands of Spain and France.This culture have in comon MOther goddes worshiping(and her husband Shiva),inhumation(not incineration),a form of yoga,abstract minimalist art,knowledge of art aesthetic,acupuncture,sofisticated towns and a elevate language.The language seem to be basco-dravidian,a aglutinate language(whit many local dialects),basque is westward limit of this language and dravidian east ward one.
    If Indus Valley people was peaceful how they compose war like story like Ramayana and Mahabharata,or some war like parts of Veda?Why in Veda dominant are sky gods(Indra,Varuna) and no gods of fertility(Earth goddes and Shiva was abundently find in Indus sites but no mention of they in Veda).Why they start change inhumation whit incineration start from 2000BC ,in the same time as europeans....

  6. #146

    Rami Performance during Hajj: Possible background to tradition

    During Hajj there is ritual of performing Rami where they throw stones at the jamarat (three satans) as part of Hajj. The word Rami and three Satans drew my attention to the whole thing. One wonders if this is a tradition drawn out of Ramayan where word Rami is a distortion of Rama and the three Satans in question are no other than Ravan, Kumbhkaran and Meghnad ? On Dasahra we Hindus also burn the effigies of three evils symbolised by Ravan, Kumbhkaran and Meghnad.

    Rajendra

  7. #147
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    dear soka

    shiva is found in vedas as rudra. ramayan n mahabharat r not the stories of indus valley n not found in vedas but later post vedic age. mahabharata area coincides with the area of modern jats in indo-pak area. similarly indus valley civilization also coincides with the same area.

    it'll be interesting to know whether jats were a gifted people to the world from india like arabic (modern european numerals) or they came frm outside to make or sub-merge in india to make it even more civilized. went where ever jat land echoed with his activities whether peaceful or war like. lets stop this discussion who came from where ever else. let all jats combine together first n later this decision will be handed over to jat sarvkhap panchayat (means the confederation of all the clans of jats) of the whole world.

  8. #148
    There is no clear picture wether Indus people were peaceful or war like(Marhal race)

    However Mahabharat war was certainly fought in Indus valley area.

    There is a confusion in historical circles about the location Saket of Lord Ram.

    Rigveda had hardly any mention of Lord Shiva even when lord Rudra mentioned one or two times he is feared and God(MAY BE Indra) help is sought to protect from his arrows.

    Jats seems to be most likely authors of Indus valley civilization after theories of Asko and Witzel were found untrue.

    Finding the real inhabitants is very important to claim the great leagcy of this civilization.

    Also the monyh of August was added later on the insistence of king Augustus that may change numbers.

    However this discovery seems to be a masterstroke in absence of this August anamoly

  9. #149

    Full reply

    Kharab Bhai Ram Ram.
    As I had promised, the full critique of your Theory is here.
    At the outset, I personally had never a doubt that the architects of the Indus valley civillisation were indigenous Indians (Bhartiyas). The logical refutations to the AIT were provided by Sh NS Rajaram’s book – AIT and The Ghost of Max Muller. Since then I have read many more books and articles. These have only cleared the air further. So I would agree with you that it were the Indians themselves who developed the Indus Valley Civillisation.

    The only difference you are making is that you are calling these people as Jats. Per se it is reasonable. But did your articulation seem to be based on caste differentiations as these exist today. I wonder whether there were castes at that time. Also whether there was this term ‘Jat’.
    Jat gotras existed in Vedic times, and they are at the same place today. It doesn’t look logical to assume that they would not have been there in

    To have a holistic society, one would need people of all types (professionally). So it is narrow approach to say that only Jats were the architects of the
    May be that all the people of this area were called Jats irrespective of their profession. Later on these got crystallised into castes. Today the word Jat has a different connotation. So the correct thing would be to say that it is the Indians who were architects of
    It is being chauvinist to say that Jats were architects. You may not intend to say as much specifically. But some people would draw such a conclusion. After all, most of us on the forum like to believe in the greatness of our lineage. Also non-Jats would certainly feel perturbed by such an articulation. And they have a point. Racial, Religious and caste jingoism can easily go out of control, to the detriment of social harmony.

    In the last 5000 years so much of migrations and intermixing of populations has taken place that it is impossible to draw a distinct line between Jats and non-Jats based on the social composition of Indus Valley. It is quite possible that the many warrior and agriculturist people of that time are in the Vaishyas or Brahmin or other castes today. Kataria is a Jat gotr, but some Chamars also use this surname! Most Katarias in Gujrat are businessmen. We don’t know who came first, the Jats or the Chamars or the businessmen ! Are they related ? Or is it that some Chamars were upgraded to Jats or vice versa ?


  10. #150

    full reply contd ....

    It looks certainly that Indus people were todays Jats and Banias(representing dravidian base) excelling in Trade and Agriculture there great co-operation is even observed in Kushan periods when Jat king helped MANGLA(Bania) kings of tarim basin against chinese aggression and when these kings always got the support of Indian traders of indus region as recorded in historical annals.Can u clarify clubbing south indian kshtraiyas as Bania is incorrect.

    Jab wo Kshatriyas hi ho gaye to Bania kahan se bache ?

    Secondly, how would have civillisation in north survived only on Jat kshatriyas without Baniyas (Kaayasths) ? Har tarah ke kaam karne waale log to hone chahiyen.

  11. #151

    full reply contd...

    Here we are finding racial similarities from Jatland to ffice:smarttags" Asia. We are all only looking westwards and northwards. If Jats spread out so much, would they have not gone to South India as well ? Vindhyas were never considered to be bigger obstacle than the Hindukush (whatever name it had before the Mohammedans coined this term).
    How do you explain the existence of sir names like Rao and Naidu outside Jatland ? What about Malik in Beng even if they are muslims today ? What about Dhaka ? My personal feeling is that many of us are unable to overcome the prejudice of North-South divide. That actually never existed till Britishers created it. Lanka’s Rakshas disturbed the meditation of Rishis in the kingdom of Ayodhayaya and Ravan could come upto central India to abduct Sita. There was so much of movement even in those times ! And here we are, 7000 years later, saying that Dravidian is indeed a separate race while Turkish, Kurds and Romanians are closer to North Indians !

  12. #152

    full reply contd..

    Some body on the Indiacause or voiceofdharma may not consider Jats to be Kshatriyas, that’s his personal problem. Similar to ours, trying to prove that Jats are the best. What we have to keep in mind is that neither the Jats existed in isolation nor any others. In future also any survival can only be through mutual co-operation. So we are all Indians or Bhartiyas first and last. Feel proud of your ancestry but don’t pull down the others.



    PS- Pl stick to some form of grammar for the benefit of the reader.

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb
    T
    Rigveda had hardly any mention of Lord Shiva even when lord Rudra mentioned one or two times he is feared and

    We do find Lord Shiva in the RV

    see discussion around

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/729

  14. #154
    Sapuran bhai
    Will you please repost the massage word size is too small to be read

  15. #155

    Big font

    Kharab bhai I had lot of problem trying to post this one. Somehow the site would insert lot of smilies etc. So I had to break up the reply.
    Pl copy paste onto your computer and then read.

  16. #156
    Is true that dravidians(tamils) are the same race as north indians.diference betwin dravidian and north indians is more a linguistic one.India is a nation of many nations.Is a comon culture but also many regional cultures.Indians are ,most of them caucasians,including dravidians.Indians from east India have a mongoloid admixture,and dravidians have a afroid admixture.However,dominant gene is caucasian.Maybe you didnt know that are more caucasians in Asia then in Europe.Is not about skin color but morphologic structure of the body.Caucasian is not mean white or european.Caucasians can be white or black skin just as normal.Exept Africa,India have the most divers genom.

    I found this picture of get king Decebal and a boy sikh .Is easy to observ similarites betwin.Can anybody knows about this tipe of turban? Have a semnification? Who wear this tipe of turban?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	sik.JPG 
Views:	33 
Size:	25.6 KB 
ID:	762  

  17. #157
    Sampuran bhai I just want post no 149 to be reposted.It has in it critical appraisal of Jats as inhabitants of Indus valley so i t is important to other members also,so that any one who wants to be enligtned need not go via cutting pasting business.I hope you wil do this for us.

  18. #158

    Repost

    Kharab Bhai Ram Ram.

    At the outset, I personally had never a doubt that the architects of the Indus valley civillisation were indigenous Indians (Bhartiyas). The logical refutations to the AIT were provided by Sh NS Rajaram’s book – AIT and The Ghost of Max Muller. Since then I have read many more books and articles. These have only cleared the air further. So I would agree with you that it were the Indians themselves who developed the Indus Valley Civillisation.

    The only difference you are making is that you are calling these people as Jats. Per se it is reasonable. But did your articulation seem to be based on caste differentiations as these exist today. I wonder whether there were castes at that time. Also whether there was this term ‘Jat’.
    Jat gotras existed in Vedic times, and they are at the same place today. It doesn’t look logical to assume that they would not have been there when Indus Valley Civillisation flourished.
    To have a holistic society, one would need people of all types (professionally). So it is narrow approach to say that only Jats were the architects of the
    Indus Valley

    May be that all the people of this area were called Jats irrespective of their profession. Later on these professions got crystallised into castes. Today the word Jat has a different connotation. So the correct thing would be to say that it is the Indians who were the architects.

    It is being chauvinist to say that Jats were architects. You may not intend to say as much specifically. But some people would draw such a conclusion. After all, most of us on the forum like to believe in the greatness of our lineage. Also non-Jats would certainly feel perturbed by such an articulation. And they have a point. Racial, Religious and caste jingoism can easily go out of control, to the detriment of social harmony.

    In the last 5000 years so much of migrations and intermixing of populations has taken place that it is impossible to draw a distinct line between Jats and non-Jats based on the social composition of
    lace>Indus Valley. It is quite possible that the many warrior and agriculturist people of that time are in the Vaishyas or Brahmin or other castes today. Kataria is a Jat gotr, but some Chamars also use this surname! Most Katarias in Gujrat are businessmen. We don’t know who came first, the Jats or the Chamars or the businessmen ! Are they related ? Or is it that some Chamars were upgraded to Jats or vice versa ?


  19. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia
    horse is conspicuous by its absence in indus valley while all other animals skeleton are found.
    When we come to these myths, none is more persistent than the one about “No horse at Harappa.” This has now been supplemented by another claim that the spoke-wheel was unknown to the Harappans. The point of these claims is that without the horse and the spoke-wheel the Harappans were militarily vulnerable to the invading Aryan hordes who moved on speedy, horse-drawn chariots with spoke-wheels. This claim is not supported by facts: an examination of the evidence shows that both the spoke-wheel and the horse were widely used by the Harappans. (The idea seems to be borrowed from the destruction of Native American civilizations by the Spanish and Portuguese ‘Conquistadors’. The Conquistadors though never used chariots.)

    As far as the spoke-wheel is concerned, B.B. Lal, former Director General of the Archaeological Survey of India records finding terracotta wheels at various Harappan sites. In his words: “The painted lines [spokes] converge at the central hub, and thus leave no doubt about their representing the spokes of the wheel. …another example is reproduced from Kalibangan, a well-known Harappan site in Rajasthan, in which too the painted lines converge at the hub. …two examples from Banawali [another Harappan site], in which the spokes are not painted but are shown in low relief.” (The Sarasvati Keeps Flowing, Aryan Books, Delhi, pages 72-3). It is also worth noting that the depiction of the spoke-wheel is quite common on Harappan seals.

    Horse and Vedic symbolism

    The horse and the cow are mentioned often in the Rigveda, though they commonly carry symbolic rather than physical meaning. There is widespread misconception that the absence of the horse at Harappan sites shows that horses were unknown in India until the invading Aryans brought them. Such ‘argument by absence’ is hazardous at best. To take an example, the bull is quite common on the seals, but the cow is never represented. We cannot from this conclude that the Harappans raised bulls but were ignorant of the cow. In any event, depictions of the horse are known at Harappan sites, though rare. It is possible that there was some kind of religious taboo that prevented the Harappans from using cows and horses in their art. More fundamentally, it is incorrect to say that horses were unknown to the Harappans. The recently released encyclopedia The Dawn of Indian Civilization, Volume 1, Part 1 observes (pages 344 – 5): “… the horse was widely domesticated and used in India during the third millennium BC over most of the area covered by the Indus-Sarasvati [or Harappan] Civilization. Archaeologically this is most significant since the evidence is widespread and not isolated.”

    This is not the full story. Sir John Marshall, Director General of the Archaeological Survey when Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro were being excavated, recorded the presence of what he called the ‘Mohenjo-daro horse’. Giving salient measurements, comparing it to other known specimens, he wrote: “It will be seen that there is a considerable degree of similarity between these various examples, and it is probable the Anau horse, the Mohenjo-daro horse, and the example of Equus caballus of the Zoological Survey of India, are all of the type of the ‘Indian country bred’, a small breed of horse, the Anau horse being slightly smaller than the others.” (Mohenjo-Daro and the Indus Civilization, volume II, page 654.) It is important to recognize that this is much stronger evidence than mere artifacts, which are artists’ reproductions and not anatomical specimens that can be subjected to scientific examination.

    Actually, the Harappans not only knew the horse, the whole issue of the ‘Harappan horse’ is irrelevant. In order to prove that the Vedas are of foreign origin, (and the horse came from Central Asia) one must produce positive evidence: it should be possible to show that the horse described in the Rigveda was brought from Central Asia. This is contradicted by the Rigveda itself. In verse I.162.18, the Rigveda describes the horse as having 34 ribs (17 pairs), while the Central Asian horse has 18 pairs (36) of ribs. We find a similar description in the Yajurveda also.

    This means that the horse described in the Vedas is the native Indian breed (with 34 ribs) and not the Central Asian variety. Fossil remains of Equus Sivalensis (the ‘Siwalik horse’) show that the 34-ribbed horse has been known in India going back tens of thousands of years. This makes the whole argument based on “No horse at Harappa” irrelevant. The Vedic horse is a native Indian breed and not the Central Asian horse. As a result, far from supporting any Aryan invasion, the horse evidence furnishes one of its strongest refutations.
    Full article at
    http://intellibriefs.blogspot.com/20...aganda_28.html

  20. #160
    dear sampuran
    Thanks for accepting the reasoning for my suggestions.

    However in one bold baseless statement of mixing of different races to the point that it is hard to tell who is who you put everything to dust bin.

    Can you tell the genetic paper reference for such a bold and definitive statement.

    Plz visit the wikipidea on aryan invasion theory and see the genetics,where research work have clearly proved that there is very little inter mixing between different casts which will clear your doubt ,plz don't make such a statement again.

    I would request you to see latest research about the genetics of indian people and its finding in paper about Polarity and tempolarity of Y- chromosome in male population

    After you go from these papers we will discuss again.

    You said N RAJARAM is he the same rajaram of infamous fake harppan horse seal fame as reported on internet

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