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Thread: Missing links in Jat History

  1. #161
    Kharab Bhai,
    I have talked of intermixing of people not races and not castes either. I have not come across a single evidence except what the Brits taught and commies & vested interests propagate, that there is something called as Dravidian race. Pl educate me.

    Yes it is the same Rajaram. And who is calling the horse seal as fake ? Are those people above board ?

    Frankly, the genetic studies are too nascent at this stage to be considered as conclusive proof. Each camp is interpreting the results as per their prejudices. So I dont believe them more than mere statistics.

    What I know is that Aryan Invasion or victory never existed in the memory of Indian populace. No civillisation has had such an organised mechnsm of record keeping as Indians. Unfortunately most of it was lost due to the muslim strategy of destroying civillisations. So I believe in what I have seen and observed in the Indian society rather than outsiders. Westerners spend decades trying to fathom India and still cant get it.

  2. #162
    Dear Sampuran
    I will again request you to see research papers and we will discuss again
    It may happen that many statements which you are putting now may withdraw yourself and time may be spent to refine this theory
    I agree to your two observations that Dravidian as such is not a race however this word is more in the nature of group of races living in southern paninsula

    I agree that nothing such as Aryan invasion or victory ever happened.Some people who knew vedas spread the knowledge about this new dharma.Hindu religion and rich culture of IVC existed much before arrival of vedas and continued after it.

    Scientists usally club Indian people in groups as Austro-asiatic,Indo europians medtiterraneans etc wether they are doing it without any base they may explain this.

    Reaschers have clearly established almost indipendant and seprate origin for people of north ,norh western and sothern group

    Since reachers have excuded the vedic people (brahman andassosiates),Southern group khattaris arora gujjars huns etc and indicated the existence of genetic similarity betveen jats and IVC,who you think could be the inhabitants of this civilization.

    However some other group of people may also be living along with them but so far researchers are silent about their antiquity.

    I will like you to understand jat had never been a caste(as brahmans or rajputs ie a heterogeneous people doing certain work) it is a race and try to understand them as such

    They have been agriculturers, soldiers articians and even sanyasis these days

    It will be of some help if you could suggest about other people of this IVC

    Thanks for accepting my reasoning regarding jats being its inhabitants

  3. #163
    Pluto's recently discovered two moons have been named as Nix and Hydra. The names, with roots in Greek mythology, were selected in part because their first letters, "N" and "H", were a tribute to the New Horizons spacecraft. Nix was originally spelled as "Nyx" by Stern's group. Nyx is the Greek goddess of darkness and Hydra is the nine-headed serpent that guarded the underworld. Interestingly In Hindu Mythology we have Sheshnag , again a multiheaded snke rulling the underwaorld (Patal) and being the seat of Lord Vishnu. Story of Sheshnag is also linked with Lord Krishna when he enetrs the river Yamuna to coillect the ball and Sheshnag brings Him back. There is no doubt that there are close links between India and European mythology and both seem to have common origin.

    Rajendra

  4. #164
    RKji, thanks for sharing latest scientific news in jat history thread. Similarity between sheshnaag and hydra is not a proof of common origin of two cultures. Its well known that ancient Greeks had some communication with contemporary Indians and mythological stories may have spread. A 2000 years old coin of Mithra(Vedic and Avesthan god) is found in England. That doesn't prove England and Vedic people had common origin. During Roman empire lots of local occult religion, pagans were famous (which were consumed by Christinity later on) so some soldier from Persia were recruited in Roman army and were transported to England. Thats why seals of Mithra went there and Mithra was also famous god in Rome.

    Other similarity that Greek God Zeus (the father) is similar to Dsayu god in Avestha, which is demon in Vedic pantheon. Of course there was some connection but that doesn't prove common origin. However it is believed, and I also believe so, that two cultures shared common origin from "neolithic age" becuase there are proofs of Aryan appearance in Asia minor in around 2000BC when they fought with Hebrews (who had recently come from Egypt lead by Moses). These Aryans were defeated and went to islands near Italian penisula, which later on developed as Etruscan culture and then finally as Roman empire. Sanskrit and Latin are closest languages in IE family. Lots of baked brick slates are available and people in asia minnor are known to have iron before their eastern "friendly neighborhood".

    There are other common things like there is trinity in christinity, in roman religion(Jupiter (Zeus), Juno, and Minerva, which is not same as Greek pantheon BTW), trinity in Greek religion as well, and ofcourse in Hinduism. Why the 3 figures in all?...

    Title of thread as "missing link in Jat history"and then relating it to Elam empire is also preposterous.

    -vinod

    BTW, nyx is also root for equivalent word for night, e.g. equinox- when day and night have equal length.



    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar
    Pluto's recently discovered two moons have been named as Nix and Hydra. The names, with roots in Greek mythology, were selected in part because their first letters, "N" and "H", were a tribute to the New Horizons spacecraft. Nix was originally spelled as "Nyx" by Stern's group. Nyx is the Greek goddess of darkness and Hydra is the nine-headed serpent that guarded the underworld. Interestingly In Hindu Mythology we have Sheshnag , again a multiheaded snke rulling the underwaorld (Patal) and being the seat of Lord Vishnu. Story of Sheshnag is also linked with Lord Krishna when he enetrs the river Yamuna to coillect the ball and Sheshnag brings Him back. There is no doubt that there are close links between India and European mythology and both seem to have common origin.

    Rajendra
    Last edited by vinodks; June 23rd, 2006 at 03:22 AM.
    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors. -J L Borges

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar
    I came across this write up by one Ms Rekha I Nambiar, which I find most interesting and convincing. There is no doubt that Aryan invasion therory is totally a European propaganda and has no basis;

    http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit11182002/history.asp

    High time our history books are re-written. Its Indians who migrated to Iran, west Asia and Europe and not the other way..

    Rajendra
    sir
    it has no sense that indians would have migrated to places like central asia
    as people migrates to place where life is easier and of comfort
    so central asian would have migrated to india, beacause of its fertile land,and lifeloving climate.:rolleyes:

  6. #166
    i want to mention just one point.
    greeks king of gods name zeus, is called ram.
    egyptian king of gods is callled ram.
    lord ram who lived way before mahabharat was our god before known history.
    there is a connection here. and it involves the first god or the king of gods.
    indeed humans migrated from africa some 70000 to 80000 yrs ago . there is a mitochondrial DNA evidence (watch "Real Eve" by dicovery channel) but when toba volcano explosion took place 70000 yrs ago. there were only 2000 to 3000 humans left on the whole earth.

    i think some of them were in india, from whom manavjati and king manu ancestor of lord rama comes from. these early indians were as endangered species as any endangered species today, but they survived, adapted, mutated and lived on.
    after toba volcano explosion, there was so much dust in the atmosphere that it was dark all the time for some 1000 yrs. as we know sun and sunlight is essential for life. when the dust settled down and the sun finally showed up people must have amazed, that's why they worshiped sun and here comes the solar race or JATS.

  7. #167
    What is about whit this solar and lunar races.Daky have as simbol a wolf,lunar ,winter and earth simbol.Getae have a bear totem,solar simbol.

    North of India was an arid desert during the ice age.Is a genetic evidente of a migration from centra asia 13000-10000 years ago.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeker
    What is about whit this solar and lunar races.Daky have as simbol a wolf,lunar ,winter and earth simbol.Getae have a bear totem,solar simbol.

    North of India was an arid desert during the ice age.Is a genetic evidente of a migration from centra asia 13000-10000 years ago.
    Soka/Asoka used 2 b a king here from mor dynasty, later converted into peacock tamers!

  9. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeker
    Is true that dravidians(tamils) are the same race as north indians.diference betwin dravidian and north indians is more a linguistic one.India is a nation of many nations.Is a comon culture but also many regional cultures.Indians are ,most of them caucasians,including dravidians.Indians from east India have a mongoloid admixture,and dravidians have a afroid admixture.However,dominant gene is caucasian.Maybe you didnt know that are more caucasians in Asia then in Europe.Is not about skin color but morphologic structure of the body.Caucasian is not mean white or european.Caucasians can be white or black skin just as normal.Exept Africa,India have the most divers genom.

    I found this picture of get king Decebal and a boy sikh .Is easy to observ similarites betwin.Can anybody knows about this tipe of turban? Have a semnification? Who wear this tipe of turban?
    Sikhism was born among Jats and spread among Jats n Jat like tribes. They had good features, like work with their own hand. Be dependent on their own fruites. Apna haath Jagannath! n Kar sewa among them meant Kar/hasti seva only. they do polish the shoes of n e one whosoever comes to Gurudwara. mind it its not bhagwan ka dwara, its gurudwara.

    u must learn Braj also,

    Kabeer said:

    Guru Gobind dono khade ka ke laagun paaye, balihari guru aapne jin gobind diyo milaaye!

  10. #170

    Gulia in Russia

    Time and again I have written that larger number of Jat surnames are found world oever. he is another Gulia in Russia working for Interfax news;

    http://www.interfax.com/67/13201/article.aspx

    RK^2

  11. #171
    As mentioned earlier in this thread and commonly known to us, the old name of India in our religious books has been Jambu dweep. This name did not appear from nowhere. As we all know, India was an island for millions of years before colliding the asian mass around 55 miilion years ago. Present day Jammu is the northern most portion of that land mass and in my views drives this name from that old name. Here is an interesting link to the latest finding that most mammals had their origin on present day Indian landmass;

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/M...ow/2531006.cms

    I don't have slightest doubt that India had a well developed human race much before other parts of the Earth.

    RK^2

  12. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    As mentioned earlier in this thread and commonly known to us, the old name of India in our religious books has been Jambu dweep. This name did not appear from nowhere. As we all know, India was an island for millions of years before colliding the asian mass around 55 miilion years ago. Present day Jammu is the northern most portion of that land mass and in my views drives this name from that old name. Here is an interesting link to the latest finding that most mammals had their origin on present day Indian landmass;

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/M...ow/2531006.cms

    I don't have slightest doubt that India had a well developed human race much before other parts of the Earth.

    RK^2
    RK
    can you show any evidence for this milion years indian civilisation?
    some literary or arheological evidence?



    meanwhile
    The Jassic people or Jász (from Iranic: Iyasi Os> Ossetian) are an ethnic group of Hungarians which mostly live in the Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county of the Republic of Hungary. They are of Ossetic origin and originally spoke the Jassic dialect of the Ossetic language. Today, they speak Hungarian and consider themselves to be ethnic Hungarians, but a sense of the "Jassic identity" is also preserved among them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1sz_people

    ) is a dialect of the Ossetian language and the name of a nomadic tribe settled in Hungary in the 13th century. The Jassic people came to Hungary together with the Cumanians, chased by the Mongol-Tatars. They were admitted by the Hungarian king Béla IV, hoping that they would assist in fighting against a Mongol-Tatar invasion. But shortly after their entry, the relationship worsened dramatically between the Hungarian nobility and the Cumanian-Jassic tribes and they left the country. After the end of the Mongol-Tatar occupation they returned and were settled in the central part of the Hungarian Plain. Initially, their main occupation was animal husbandry. During the next two centuries they were fully assimilated to the Hungarian population, their language disappeared, but they preserved their Jassic identity and their regional autonomy until 1876. Over a dozen settlements in Central Hungary (eg. Jászberény, Jászárokszállás, Jászfényszaru) still bear their name. The only literary record of the Jassic language was found in the 1950s in the Hungarian National Széchényi Library. The language was reconstructed with the help of Ossetian analogies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1sz_language

  13. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by smeker View Post
    RK
    can you show any evidence for this milion years indian civilisation?
    some literary or arheological evidence?



    meanwhile
    The Jassic people or Jász (from Iranic: Iyasi Os> Ossetian) are an ethnic group of Hungarians which mostly live in the Jász-Nagykun-Szolnok county of the Republic of Hungary. They are of Ossetic origin and originally spoke the Jassic dialect of the Ossetic language. Today, they speak Hungarian and consider themselves to be ethnic Hungarians, but a sense of the "Jassic identity" is also preserved among them.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1sz_people

    ) is a dialect of the Ossetian language and the name of a nomadic tribe settled in Hungary in the 13th century. The Jassic people came to Hungary together with the Cumanians, chased by the Mongol-Tatars. They were admitted by the Hungarian king Béla IV, hoping that they would assist in fighting against a Mongol-Tatar invasion. But shortly after their entry, the relationship worsened dramatically between the Hungarian nobility and the Cumanian-Jassic tribes and they left the country. After the end of the Mongol-Tatar occupation they returned and were settled in the central part of the Hungarian Plain. Initially, their main occupation was animal husbandry. During the next two centuries they were fully assimilated to the Hungarian population, their language disappeared, but they preserved their Jassic identity and their regional autonomy until 1876. Over a dozen settlements in Central Hungary (eg. Jászberény, Jászárokszállás, Jászfényszaru) still bear their name. The only literary record of the Jassic language was found in the 1950s in the Hungarian National Széchényi Library. The language was reconstructed with the help of Ossetian analogies.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1sz_language
    Well norman even if Jats were here long ago they have to be from central asian mass not the Indian mass that collided northern mass as per science.

    Anyway Let us focus on Jasz ,I have to go through that article but as per my own information they are certainly Jats as The country of Mongol Tartar people was always known as the country of Jats historically known as Jattah nation.Mongols were sworn enemy of Jats and it is well known that they destroyed Jats power in Turkmenistan and Bamiyan Valley .

    The migration of Jats from Jattah nation to Hungry and Bulgaria is well known fact a supporting evidence is the presence of clans like Bar Goti in Jasz people ,same clan is present in Indian Jats till today ,again these people share some common genetic haplogroups.

    My own view is term Indo Iranian was specially coined for Jats as they spread between Iran and India having some parts of both countries.


    I will try to search a link about genetic and clan name about Jats and Jasz people.

    History Of Kasgher by HW Belley will give you a good account of these Jats and their Jattah nation later occupied by Teimur.
    Last edited by snandal1; November 18th, 2007 at 10:36 PM.

  14. #174
    Qote..

    Ritter in one place suggests that Otitis of Goes may be Karashahr, but in another he will have it to be Yulduz, a place lying among the mountains of the Thian-Shan, celebrated for its beauty, its springs, meadows, and fine breezes, which was the encamping ground of Timur after his campaign of extermination against the Jats. Ritter had also previously identified Yulduz with the Cailac of Rubruquis.

    Cathey and way thithr VOL II page 575..



  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by snandal1 View Post
    Well norman even if Jats were here long ago they have to be from central asian mass not the Indian mass that collided northern mass as per science.

    Anyway Let us focus on Jasz ,I have to go through that article but as per my own information they are certainly Jats as The country of Mongol Tartar people was always known as the country of Jats historically known as Jattah nation.Mongols were sworn enemy of Jats and it is well known that they destroyed Jats power in Turkmenistan and Bamiyan Valley .

    The migration of Jats from Jattah nation to Hungry and Bulgaria is well known fact a supporting evidence is the presence of clans like Bar Goti in Jasz people ,same clan is present in Indian Jats till today ,again these people share some common genetic haplogroups.

    My own view is term Indo Iranian was specially coined for Jats as they spread between Iran and India having some parts of both countries.


    I will try to search a link about genetic and clan name about Jats and Jasz people.

    History Of Kasgher by HW Belley will give you a good account of these Jats and their Jattah nation later occupied by Teimur.
    i read an article about jasz genetic.though jasz are similar whit other hungarians ,stil they have a lineage comon whit iranians.similar thing are found in the hungarian szekely from romania.
    they came in hungary in 13 century chase from back by the mongols.
    but from descriptions they were blond and blue eyed (as most of north iranians before they was smashed by turko-mongols).

  16. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    As mentioned earlier in this thread and commonly known to us, the old name of India in our religious books has been Jambu dweep. This name did not appear from nowhere. As we all know, India was an island for millions of years before colliding the asian mass around 55 miilion years ago. Present day Jammu is the northern most portion of that land mass and in my views drives this name from that old name. Here is an interesting link to the latest finding that most mammals had their origin on present day Indian landmass;

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/M...ow/2531006.cms

    I don't have slightest doubt that India had a well developed human race much before other parts of the Earth.

    RK^2
    yes, I do agree with you. Jats had some unique features in India, bit other than their fellow Jats outside. India had certain unique features

    1. Yoga- the kind of one is nowhere practiced before
    2. Kabaddi
    3. Kushti
    4. Chess, chaturangini sena means Chaturan, means shatranz, the Arabian one
    5. The classical music
    6. Elephant of India, first time used in war against Allexander by Porus
    7. true monsoon phenomenonm in world that is observed in Indian sub-continent..

    ....

  17. #177
    Most of Allexander army was composed of Dahiya Jats. Many thaught them from Iran, but they were from Dacia..

  18. #178
    R1a1 haplotype -originate in India1344/T
    The Autochthonous Origin and a Tribal Link of Indian Brahmins: Evaluation Through
    Molecular Genetic Markers. S. Sharma1,2, E. Rai1,2, S. Singh1,2, P.R. Sharma1,3, A.K. Bhat1,
    K. Darvishi1, A.J.S. Bhanwer2, P.K. Tiwari3, R.N.K. Bamezai1. 1) NCAHG, SLS, JNU, New
    delhi; 2) Department of Human Genetics, GNDU, Amritsar; 3) Centre for Genomics, SOS
    zoology, JU,Gwalior.
    The co-existence and associated genetic evidences for the major rival models: i) recent
    Central Asian introduction of Indian caste system, ii) rank related west Eurasian admixture,
    iii) South Asian origin for Indian caste communities, and iv) late Pleistocene heritage of tribal
    and caste populations, leave the question of the origin of caste system in India hazy and
    obscure. To resolve the issue, we screened 621 Y-chromosomes (of Brahmins, occupying
    upper most caste position and Dalits and Tribals with the lower most positions in the Indian
    caste hierarchical system) with fifty-five Y-chromosomal binary markers and Y-microsatellite
    markers and compiled a data set of 2809 Y-chromosomes (681 Brahmins, 2128 Tribals and
    Dalits) for conclusions. Overall, no consistent difference was observed in Y-haplogroups
    distribution between Brahmins, Dalits and Tribals, except for some differences confined to a
    given geographical region. A peculiar observation of highest frequency (upto 72.22%) of Yhaplogroups
    R1a1* in Brahmins, hinted at its presence as a founder lineage for this caste
    group. The widespread distribution and high frequency across Eurasia and Central Asia of
    R1a1* as well as scanty representation of its ancestral (R*, R1* and R1a*) and derived
    lineages across the region has kept the origin of this haplogroup unresolved. The analyses
    of a pooled dataset of 530 Indians, 224 Pakistanis and 276 Central Asians and Eurasians,
    bearing R1a1* haplogroup resolved the controversy of origin of R1a1*. The conclusion was
    drawn on the basis of: i) presence of this haplogroup in many of the tribal populations such
    as, Saharia (present study) and Chenchu tribe in high frequency, ii) the highest ever reported
    presence of R1a* (ancestral haplogroup of R1a1*) in Kashmiri Pandits (Brahmins) and Saharia
    tribe, and iii) associated averaged phylogenetic ages of R1a* (~18,478 years) and R1a1*
    (~13,768 years) in India. The study supported the autochthonous origin of R1a1 lineage and
    a tribal link to Indian Brahmins

    http://www.ashg.org/genetics/ashg/an...stractbook.pdf

  19. #179

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    Sikhism was born among Jats and spread among Jats n Jat like tribes. They had good features, like work with their own hand. Be dependent on their own fruites. Apna haath Jagannath! n Kar sewa among them meant Kar/hasti seva only. they do polish the shoes of n e one whosoever comes to Gurudwara. mind it its not bhagwan ka dwara, its gurudwara.

    u must learn Braj also,

    Kabeer said:

    Guru Gobind dono khade ka ke laagun paaye, balihari guru aapne jin gobind diyo milaaye!

    Tewatia sir,

    I wonder why you mentioned this verse written by Kabir ... and in what context.
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  20. #180
    More one thinks about our relegion and culture, more interesting facts emerge. This my next take;

    We all know the story of River Ganga and how it was brought to Earth by Bhagirath. Irrespective of the associated story, one thing is very clear that Ganga appeared only when Indian mass collided with Asian mass and Himalyas came on scene. Most Himalyan rivers came into being only after this geological phenomenon. This raises very important question. Did wer have civilisation when Ganga appeared ? In my view yes, else we won't have such stories of Ganga being brough by some one.

    RK^2

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