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Thread: Missing links in Jat History

  1. #1

    Missing links in Jat History

    More I read about our history, more missing links I find. Through this thread I will make some efforts to unearth some of these missing links and invite members also to contribute to this thread. May be at times my logics might appear totally absurd, but still let me make sincere efforts. Basic assumptions of my hypothesis would invariably be that we human migrate either during wars or famines or during other natural calamities and to some extent for better opportunities. Wars lead to polarisation of populations and give rise to different ideologies. I would therefore assume that;

    1. Major population shift must have taken place from India during Ramayan and Mahabharat wars. Lot is known what all went on during Lord Rama's time, but not much after Luv-Kush periods. Let me venture first on this part of our history. As we know, centre of power during Luv-Kush period shifted to present day Pakistan. The reasons for such shift could have been many. Usually people name their children after the names of Kings or great people. Going by this logic one would imagine that Rama, Luv and Kush must have been very common names during post Rama period and the areas where such names became common, must certainly be the part of their kingdom or other dependent kingdoms. With this logic I started my search and looked into biblical records. Following are my initial findings;

    1. http://www.british-israel.ca/Elam.pdf

    Going through the above link titled "Elam in Prophecy" I noticed that Rama (mentioned as Ramah and Kush (mentioned as Cush) were the names of people in Elam empire and even in present day Egypt. Then there are names like Amarphel, Banipal etc that are no different than present day common Jat names. There were towns like Ellasar, sounding very similar to Manesar, Amritsar and Parvatsar. My very strong feeling is that Balyan Gotra of Jat has to do something with Babylon. There is mention of places like Harahvati, which in my view are the predators to our present day Haryana. Lots of Jat history is hidden in the history of Elam Empire for sure. There is mention of a place Kundu also in Elam Empire. I think Kundu jats got their surname from this very place. There is very clear mention that Croats and Serbs migrated to Europe from Elam Empire. There is mention that Cush had a son called Nimrod who went against God. I am very inclined to draw from this Nimrod went against lord Rama who was the God of all his forefathers. Nimrod tried to consolidate all the growing families of post-flood mankind. It would be safe for me to assume that this flood was nothing other than the great Pralaya mentioned in Manu-smriti.

    I think above should be food enough to trigger imaginations of members to initiate further debate on the subject.

    Rajendra

  2. #2
    Good thinking.

    Taking a conceptual approach, will provide many avenues of exploration

  3. #3
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    raghuvansh of kaalidas

    famous historian dr k p jayaswal said that gupta empire belonged to jats of punjab. to encourage the moral of vikramaditya of vikram-betal fame, chandragupta vikramaditya-2, he wrote novel raghuvansha. there appears maharaja nabhi in the dynasty of maharaja kush, whom perhaps u r talking about? kakran goth is the goth of rama. used to be maharaja kak or kakutsth the ancestor of maharaja raghu.

  4. #4
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    missing links in history-rroma jats

    in sindh, as 2day, no jats r thr. but it was all occupied by jats as late as mahmud of ghazni. his last 17th attack was not to loot but punish the jats, who looted him during his 16th attack. in 712 ad muhammad bin quasim conquered sindh with the help of jats only which were more densely populated thr as compared to modern haryana. even during mahabharta sindh was absolutely total jat province named after sandhu/sindhu goth. whr duryodhana advised them to have at least a few brahmins and sent his sister dushala or sushila to rule them. kauravas themselves were jats of kar/khar goth compare with kharkhoda villages of rohtak and meerut. kar means hand/haath/hast/hastinapur as later writers named it making the hindi/sanskrit translation. otherwise the name was not indian.

    n e way. ghazni drove the jats out of sindh and made it totally jat-less out of his revenge. those crores of jats are now gypsies and rromas in europe.

  5. #5
    S K Tewatia,

    Raghuvamsa was written by Kalidas not by the person you named, its book about lineages of Kings of Solar race...Rama etc...

    Presence of Jats in Sindh (Jats and Gazni fights are frequently quoted) is believed by many historian and there are proofs in Mahabharta too as you mentioned but I don't buy the claim that Kauravas were Jats based on vague argument of surname "kar/khar".... what it has to do with Kharkhoda.... Though it might have been true that Kauravas were Jats, this matching of names is not very reliable proof... What it meant by saying certain person in history was Jat?... whole context was different at that time and this racial pride drawn out of such proofs is not much useful... Yeah, you can say that- see! Jats too had proud lineage... thats all... anyway keep the good work up!!!

    Vinod

    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia
    in sindh, as 2day, no jats r thr. but it was all occupied by jats as late as mahmud of ghazni. his last 17th attack was not to loot but punish the jats, who looted him during his 16th attack. in 712 ad muhammad bin quasim conquered sindh with the help of jats only which were more densely populated thr as compared to modern haryana. even during mahabharta sindh was absolutely total jat province named after sandhu/sindhu goth. whr duryodhana advised them to have at least a few brahmins and sent his sister dushala or sushila to rule them. kauravas themselves were jats of kar/khar goth compare with kharkhoda villages of rohtak and meerut. kar means hand/haath/hast/hastinapur as later writers named it making the hindi/sanskrit translation. otherwise the name was not indian.

    n e way. ghazni drove the jats out of sindh and made it totally jat-less out of his revenge. those crores of jats are now gypsies and rromas in europe.
    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors. -J L Borges

  6. #6
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    thnx

    u r true that kalidas wrote raghuvansh. oh, by mistake by "he" I meant kaalidas only. he was a court poet of vikram..and vikram and other guptas defeated hunas that time. grammarian chandra of that time uses a sentence "invincible jats defeated hunas"

    not only kaurav but almost all of them are jats. ancient oxford history mentions one "Yudhitthilla the gotta ruling over Indputt" i.e. yudhishthir, the jatt ruling over indraprastha which was sanskrtized from indputt. the places/villages on or near the banks of river in original indo-european (theth jat) languages usually ended with "putt" which means water. like soniputt, paniputt, indputt, patliputt (sanskritised as patliputra).

    otherwise also most of the kings were from modern jat region i.e. from ganges to indus land and further west india/asia. central/south india is not mentioned. that time in pre-muslim period there was hardly any difference in india and persia. even in 5-6 century bc darius empire included punjab as richest and 21st province. even alexander empire included punjab and modern afghanistan.

  7. #7


    Vinod

    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia
    u r true that kalidas wrote raghuvansh. oh, by mistake by "he" I meant kaalidas only. .
    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors. -J L Borges

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia
    . ancient oxford history mentions one "Yudhitthilla the gotta ruling over Indputt" i.e. yudhishthir, the jatt ruling over indraprastha n.

    Could you help and tell us if you have details?

    What is the exact reference for this quote- book, page number, publisher?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia
    in sindh, as 2day, no jats r thr. but it was all occupied by jats as late as mahmud of ghazni. his last 17th attack was not to loot but punish the jats, who looted him during his 16th attack. in 712 ad muhammad bin quasim conquered sindh with the help of jats only which were more densely populated thr as compared to modern haryana. even during mahabharta sindh was absolutely total jat province named after sandhu/sindhu goth. whr duryodhana advised them to have at least a few brahmins and sent his sister dushala or sushila to rule them. kauravas themselves were jats of kar/khar goth compare with kharkhoda villages of rohtak and meerut. kar means hand/haath/hast/hastinapur as later writers named it making the hindi/sanskrit translation. otherwise the name was not indian.

    n e way. ghazni drove the jats out of sindh and made it totally jat-less out of his revenge. those crores of jats are now gypsies and rromas in europe.
    Food for thought

    1-There are plenty of jats still in Sindh. Many now call themselves Rajputs!

    2 - Them being driven out , captured, and becomeing the Roma gypsies is a silly story.

    For a relevant discussion thread see:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/219


    3 -There was no 17th expedition of Ghazni. that is a fabrication of Feristha , 500 years after Ghazni lived. see:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/85
    Mahmud of Ghazni's last expedition

    4- The Mahabharat story is actually that 25,000 Brahmins were sent there by Duryodhana, and his sister was sent there to rule, because the unruly uncivili0zed Jats came and begged for Brahmins to be sent there.

    This is a late fabrication, served up to establish the superiority of the ' Brahmin' jati against the Jats.

    Any guess , who the author of this canard is?

    We must remember that the Mahabharat was still being revised and re-revised upto one hunded years ago.

    Besides I am not even sure that this story exists in the Mahabharat- Quanago mentions it in his "History of the Jats", but which edition of the Mahabharat is it mentioned in?

    ON many issues Quanago should be taken with more than a pinch of Salt- he is ok on the straightforward translatains from Urdu/farsi to English, but very weak on the rest!

    The MBH is now on line and it shudl be easy to check.


    The pen is indeed mightier than the swiord, when we still belive such bilge!

    Best regards


    Ravi Chaudhary

  10. #10
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    re chhore

    saari solar n lunar race mhari thi!

  11. #11
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    sub yadu vanshi chandra-vanshi, agni vanshi, tuffann vanshi sub mhare e the bhai!

    the forces of nature that means n e engineering n applied sciences, that all was created by us. all decimal system, all brain, all everything v possessed but yet trying 2 find out our own identity!! chhore, learn sm management, thats whr v've 2 concentrate. khopadi hai teri! sambhal ke raakhiye bhai, keep it up!

    humm te bhai ram saroop joon ki tarh mar jyange. tumm ne jeenna se!

  12. #12
    Next Hypothesis I wish to base on the very basic assumptions that trade and travel always flourish during peacetime and No News is Good news. Going by these assumptions and common sense principle;

    1. There were no major wars after Mahabharat. Also we don't hear much about the happenings of that period. This means that all was well during the period and people were engaged in trade, travel and other leisure activities. Culture must have developed maximum during this period. Dwarika and many other cities along the sea must have developed as big trading ports during the period.

    2. Same can be said safely about post Rama period. Our traders must have reached to almost every place in the west Asia to spread our culture and trade. Stories of Rama's success must have been sold like folklore wherever our traders and travellers went. No wonder we find names like Rama and Kush in far away places like Egypt and Palestine.

    Once again coming to Jambu dweep theory. Let us accept that not much has been done to dig deeper into Indian soil to find our past. If I go by the logic that Aravli was once very tall mountain, and let us assume that there were civilisations in the foot hills/ valleys of these mountains, they must have got buried very very low to find any traces. If world came to know of Mohanjedaro only about 80-90 years back, once can imagine the fate of civilisations of Jambu Dweep. I simply don't buy the logic that man was born only in Africa and not on Jambu dweep, which was very much part of African continent. Science does not have any logic that Africa alone had all the conditions for man to develop and not Jambu dweep. In fact being an island, man must have developed more in a safer environment than in Africa where there were too many dangers for its safety.

    Rajendra

  13. #13
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    why ramayan n mahabharta only?

    lets come to genetics science. the genome research is a journal. dr. bamshaad (from university of utah) heads a theory thr that early europeans came 2 india n founded a caste system here placing themselves at the top over there.

    then, questions are:

    whether jats r europeans?
    central aseans?
    indians?
    or all other world is frm india n frm jats?

    1. basic hypothesis rather reality is
    a. jats occupy the most fertile land in the world i.e. from indus 2 ganges and chambal, the land of nine rivers including saraswati, now extinct in deserts of rajasthan.
    b. no body had donated them these rivers and land.
    c. must have been brave enough to conquer and retain this land inspite of all rivalries and bloody fights till 2day.
    d. must have been braver than rajputs who surround them all around, i.e. jammu, himanchal, uttaranchal, eastern and central UP, MP, lower deserted rajasthan,.........etc.

    ramayan n mahabharat r just 2 pieces of jats battles. every battle jat fought was no less than these. father of history herodotus, a greek historian became father of history due to the exploits of jats only.

    "no man dies a natural death here. when a man gets 2 old all his kins folk collect together n offer him up in a sacrifice. n his flesh is distributed amongst his kinsfolk. if a man is ill n can not b offered in sacrifice he dies cursing him that he could not be used for his coming generations. They eat flesh n drink milk. Horse is the animal that they love most being the swiftest one. they offer him up in a sacrifice. the only god they worship is the sun god."

    i've personally read this book by herodotus and also raghuvansha of kaalidas.

    then again he mentions that jats are so numerous and so brave that they could conquere the whole world provided they had unity.

  14. #14
    I agree with you... I am learning some management... Tewatiaji, you know where to get Raghuvamsha with english or hindi translation? I am very interested because it gives details of whole genealogy of ancient kings with by striping mythological elements off...

    -Vinod

    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia
    the forces of nature that means n e engineering n applied sciences, that all was created by us. all decimal system, all brain, all everything v possessed but yet trying 2 find out our own identity!! chhore, learn sm management, thats whr v've 2 concentrate. khopadi hai teri! sambhal ke raakhiye bhai, keep it up!

    humm te bhai ram saroop joon ki tarh mar jyange. tumm ne jeenna se!
    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors. -J L Borges

  15. #15
    RKji,
    you are right about how our culture might have spread through folk-lore. There was no major war about Mahabharta? May be. But there were major natural calamities, floods in Indus valley, drying up of Saraswati, submergence of Dwarika.. Indus-Saraswati civilization shifted to Gange's planes(thats why Saraswati is more mentioned in Rgveda and Gange is more mentioned in Puranas)... there is archeological evidence of shift of civilization... In these difficult time we can't expect to have major cities and literature and thats why we don't hear much of during this time... but this continuuity was reassumed by Puranas and coming up of Jainism etc.. and then we have account of history... So looks like that "no news" need not necessarily be "good news".

    As far as Jambu dweep goes. Jambu dweep was 60milion year old incident and there is no way Humans were there at time.... Our ancient seers who wrote this mythology lived around 4000BC but there is no way of knowing this natural history fact without scientific evidences which are available now by carbon-dating etc... Times when Jambu dweep was part of Africa was 300 million years back... there were dinosuars 65 millions years back... so you mean humans were here before and during dinosaurs?... first ape appeared 23 million years back and there is no proof by any human bone or remains anywhere in world before 500,000 years back... This is mythology that needs to be separated brom natural history.... but I agree our culture is one of the oldest in world and is still thriving... Human may have evolved in Africa but India was cradle of ancient civilization...

    Vinod


    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar
    Next Hypothesis I wish to base on the very basic assumptions that trade and travel always flourish during peacetime and No News is Good news. Going by these assumptions and common sense principle;

    1. There were no major wars after Mahabharat. Also we don't hear much about the happenings of that period. This means that all was well during the period and people were engaged in trade, travel and other leisure activities. Culture must have developed maximum during this period. Dwarika and many other cities along the sea must have developed as big trading ports during the period.

    2. Same can be said safely about post Rama period. Our traders must have reached to almost every place in the west Asia to spread our culture and trade. Stories of Rama's success must have been sold like folklore wherever our traders and travellers went. No wonder we find names like Rama and Kush in far away places like Egypt and Palestine.

    Once again coming to Jambu dweep theory. Let us accept that not much has been done to dig deeper into Indian soil to find our past. If I go by the logic that Aravli was once very tall mountain, and let us assume that there were civilisations in the foot hills/ valleys of these mountains, they must have got buried very very low to find any traces. If world came to know of Mohanjedaro only about 80-90 years back, once can imagine the fate of civilisations of Jambu Dweep. I simply don't buy the logic that man was born only in Africa and not on Jambu dweep, which was very much part of African continent. Science does not have any logic that Africa alone had all the conditions for man to develop and not Jambu dweep. In fact being an island, man must have developed more in a safer environment than in Africa where there were too many dangers for its safety.

    Rajendra
    Last edited by vinodks; November 30th, 2005 at 03:50 AM.
    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors. -J L Borges

  16. #16
    Raviji,
    Interesting facts. I heard at some time Jats from Sindh fought with Gazni in sea... 20,000 people were massacred in sea... Is it true?... Where do we get information about Jats in that reason before Islam?... and was "Jat" word as separate ethnic identity popular then?...

    -Vinod

    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary
    Food for thought

    1-There are plenty of jats still in Sindh. Many now call themselves Rajputs!

    2 - Them being driven out , captured, and becomeing the Roma gypsies is a silly story.

    For a relevant discussion thread see:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/219


    3 -There was no 17th expedition of Ghazni. that is a fabrication of Feristha , 500 years after Ghazni lived. see:

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/85
    Mahmud of Ghazni's last expedition

    4- The Mahabharat story is actually that 25,000 Brahmins were sent there by Duryodhana, and his sister was sent there to rule, because the unruly uncivili0zed Jats came and begged for Brahmins to be sent there.

    This is a late fabrication, served up to establish the superiority of the ' Brahmin' jati against the Jats.

    Any guess , who the author of this canard is?

    We must remember that the Mahabharat was still being revised and re-revised upto one hunded years ago.

    Besides I am not even sure that this story exists in the Mahabharat- Quanago mentions it in his "History of the Jats", but which edition of the Mahabharat is it mentioned in?

    ON many issues Quanago should be taken with more than a pinch of Salt- he is ok on the straightforward translatains from Urdu/farsi to English, but very weak on the rest!

    The MBH is now on line and it shudl be easy to check.


    The pen is indeed mightier than the swiord, when we still belive such bilge!

    Best regards


    Ravi Chaudhary
    Last edited by vinodks; November 30th, 2005 at 03:51 AM.
    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors. -J L Borges

  17. #17

    Missing llikns

    For Sh Tewatia

    The origin of jats is certainly not European. Many westerners still have a habit of flogging the Aryan Invasion Thoery in new form just to indirectly show their antiquity (over us).

    Rajputs are as much Indian as Jats. In fact, they were a part of Jat community itself.

    For fuller explanation of both these aspects, pl read my reply in The Origin of Jats. (The replies were posted by Sh Kalkhande on my behalf)

    We can still discuss anything if required.

  18. #18

    The Aryan Invasion Theory : Fact or Fallacy?

    I came across this write up by one Ms Rekha I Nambiar, which I find most interesting and convincing. There is no doubt that Aryan invasion therory is totally a European propaganda and has no basis;

    http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit11182002/history.asp

    High time our history books are re-written. Its Indians who migrated to Iran, west Asia and Europe and not the other way..

    Rajendra

  19. #19
    Hmm... A good article it is.
    -vinod

    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar
    I came across this write up by one Ms Rekha I Nambiar, which I find most interesting and convincing. There is no doubt that Aryan invasion therory is totally a European propaganda and has no basis;

    http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit11182002/history.asp

    High time our history books are re-written. Its Indians who migrated to Iran, west Asia and Europe and not the other way..

    Rajendra
    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors. -J L Borges

  20. #20
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    sangaonn, sanggwaann

    apnna email de bhai! sub te pahle tunne he samjhana padde ga bhai!

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