Scandinavia and Jats

[narenderkharb]

Bhairav Dahiyaji
Bhai tu kiit jaake daatege.
Do u know any thing about genetic inbreeding and outbreeding.
I can understand these words for u are convoluted, nevertheless let me tell u some thing. People from europe dont resemble us does not mean that they have no link with us.
Manne to nyu laage se ke tu JAT e konya.
Na to iisi bawali baat na karre. Marre yaar kyan te naam dob rehya se
kimme le de ke maan ja iib:p
Tadke aawe to kimme soch ke bhonkiye aare.

Sheer brilliance of humor...

I read it many times and enjoyed it every time

Bairav bhai please don't take it otherwise.

Keshav bhariv is a close friend of this group who some how left this group,he leaves no one in doubt by telling ban story, I urge him come back in original ID.

please don't use any harsh words ,he is one of us.

[keshavdahiya]

Thanx Kharab ji and Sampuran Singh ji

Ek baar to ban kiya tanne ek baar aur kar do bhai sarpancho isko.
Tere gol mol zawab ka koi matlab nahee. Tanne european hone ka shok lag raha lagta hae. Zabardasti rishta jod lee apna. Lagta hae tanne genetic inbreeding ke bare mein jayada hee malum hae. :D

Now I am really scared outta death dude, "BAN"........hehehe:D:D
do u really think mere muh pe ban laga denge aap
marre yaar ye chotte motte ban ke paddenge mera

lekin Tera koi tor nahi hai, Marre yaar tanne to bhosana hai....mere "gol mol" ya "aade teede" jawab tere samjh mein na aanne, and if u kindly pay attention to Tewatiaji and Burdakji's posts there is not doubt left.
Ib to manne nyu bhi lagan lagya tu chuura-chamar bhi konya...
manne bera se tanne bahut buuri lagti hongi meri baat, its natural.
Rahi baat genetic breeding ki.......That i know about animals only as I have been dealing with them for some years now. Teri breeding per doubt hai and cant help about that.
Dil per mat lena bhai but still i wud recomend that u get checked up by some animal psychiatrist.......if u find one:p or tell me i wud give u free consultations

[lrburdak]

Jat (North India)>>>>>Jatt (Punjab)>>>>>Jott (Pronounced by Bengales, finds mention in Bangla dictionary)>>>>>Zott (Persian language, adopted from Bangla dictionary)>>>>>Jaut>>>>>Gaut (Gaut was one of Odin's names, Scandinavia)>>>>>Goth (Germany)

Gautr, Gauti, Guti, Gothus and Geats are name forms based on the same Proto-Germanic root, *ǥuđ- (see god). Gapt is considered to be a corruption of Gaut (Gaut→Gavt→Gaft→Gapt, cf. eftir and eptir, "after" in Old Norse).
The names may represent the eponymous founder of an early tribe ancestral to the Gautar (Geats), Gutans (Goths) and Gutar (Gotlanders). Gaut was one of Odin's names and the name forms are thought to be echoes of an ancient ancestry tradition among Germanic tribes, such as that of Yngvi and the Ingaevones.

The names Geats, Goths and Gutar are closely related tribal names. Geat was originally Proto-Germanic *Gautoz and Goths and Gutar were *Gutaniz. According to Andersson (1996), *Gautoz and *Gutaniz are two ablaut grades of a Proto-Germanic word with the meaning "to pour" (modern Swedish gjuta, modern German giessen) designating the tribes as "pourers of semen" or "men".

Some versions of the English royal line of Wessex add names above that of Woden, purportedly giving Woden's ancestry, though the names are now usually thought be in fact another royal lineage that has been at some stage erroneously pasted onto the top of the standard genealogy. Some of these genealogies end in Geat, whom it is reasonable to think might be Gaut. The account in the Historia Britonum calls Geat a son of a god which fits. But Asser in his Life of Alfred writes instead that the pagans worshipped this Geat himself for a long time as a god. In Old Norse texts Gaut is itself a very common byname for Odin.

Jordanes in The origin and deeds of the Goths traces the line of the Amelungs up to Hulmul son of Gapt, purportedly the first Gothic hero of record. This Gapt is felt by many commentators to be an error for Gaut or Gauti. Nennius reports that a Gothus was the ancestor of the Goths.
The Gutasaga, which treats the history of Gotland before its Christianization, begins with Tielvar and his son Havde, who had three sons, Graip, Guti and Gunfjaun, who were the ancestors of the Gotlanders, the Gutar (which is originally the same name as Goths).

References
· Andersson, Thorsten. (1996) "Göter, goter, gutar" in Journal Namn och Bygd, Uppsala.
· http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaut

[betaal]

janwaroon ka doctor. kutte biliayoon ka doctor. sare din aur raat internet par post kar ta raehta hae.
apne aapko germano ka ristedar kehta jae. Zabardasti. Even if the germans call Indians brownie, brown nigger, sandy nigger, blackie, coloured, racially inferior, mixed breed? even after all that? Man, you should be commended for such servant mentality.
So jat=goths? This is amazing turn of wording. Unbelievable.

[jatsrule]

janwaroon ka doctor. kutte biliayoon ka doctor. sare din aur raat internet par post kar ta raehta hae.
apne aapko germano ka ristedar kehta jae. Zabardasti. Even if the germans call Indians brownie, brown nigger, sandy nigger, blackie, coloured, racially inferior, mixed breed? even after all that? Man, you should be commended for such servant mentality.
So jat=goths? This is amazing turn of wording. Unbelievable.

hahaha, bikul thik khete ho bhairav ji
jaanwar jaisi akal apne,
:Dmixed breed, germany mein naukar. haha

[ravichaudhary]

janwaroon ka doctor. kutte biliayoon ka doctor. sare din aur raat internet par post kar ta raehta hae.
apne aapko germano ka ristedar kehta jae. Zabardasti. Even if the germans call Indians brownie, brown nigger, sandy nigger, blackie, coloured, racially inferior, mixed breed? even after all that? Man, you should be commended for such servant mentality.
So jat=goths? This is amazing turn of wording. Unbelievable.

This is supposed to a serious section of this group. The goal is to educate members, and allow members to discuss and also equally importnat to allow them the space to expolore their thoughts even if they turn out to be wrong.

At the risk of offending you, in that light, I might query whether the language you are using is thoughtful and appropriate?


Dahiya ji

If you wish to discuss the Goth= Jat or not hypothesis, I will be happy to do so with you.


Please start a new thread!


Ravi Chaudhary

[betaal]

Raviji I was only replying to keshav in the previous post. Europeans/Americans/white folks do use these words to describe Indians in private and sometimes in public too. But some folks here are dheed/hellbend on becoming bateus of germans/goths(german tribe) and every thing European/white (servant mentality) so I had to quote the ground reality to them. But yeh tho white logoon ke bateu zabardasti baan kar he raheenge chayee gardhan par rassi baand the unke woh log.

[ravichaudhary]

Raviji I was only replying to keshav in the previous post. Europeans/Americans/white folks do use these words to describe Indians in private and sometimes in public too. But some folks here are dheed/hellbend on becoming bateus of germans/goths(german tribe) and every thing European/white (servant mentality) so I had to quote the ground reality to them. But yeh tho white logoon ke bateu zabardasti baan kar he raheenge chayee gardhan par rassi baand the unke woh log.

I hope i am not sounding pompous, but the language is inappropriate.

Whether white people call us brownies of niggers is also, i suggest, irrelevant!

This is a history section.

Here we explore issues and theories

It is fact, that the words Gaut, Gut, Jut, Gutar etc etc occur in Scandinavian literature, in fact in the oldest literature that has survived.

The G is as in Germany, i.e a J.

Today all that is left is basically mythology.

Yet in this mythology there are striking similarities to the old Indian legends.

The question that strikes some of us is why this is so ?

People are entiltled to explore the connexion.

When people do so- to claim 'that they are seeking 'risteydari' with white European germans' is uncalled for and provocative.

and, what if there is a connexion?


Best regards, and I hope I have not offended you!

Again if you wish to discuss this or any specific topic,

please do so

[sampuran]

Raviji I was only replying to keshav in the previous post. Europeans/Americans/white folks do use these words to describe Indians in private and sometimes in public too. But some folks here are dheed/hellbend on becoming bateus of germans/goths(german tribe) and every thing European/white (servant mentality) so I had to quote the ground reality to them. But yeh tho white logoon ke bateu zabardasti baan kar he raheenge chayee gardhan par rassi baand the unke woh log.

Betaal bhai
There is nothing wrong in looking at history and common beliefs from a new angle. But I would agree with you to the extent that why jump the gun to Europeans. With in India there are stronly held beliefs like north-south divide on racial lines which have no basis. This is really a big impediment because educated and well travelled people carry these false feelings to foreign countries as well.
I would request somebody to find connections between north and south India, some history proving / disproving that rao/naidus of Andhra, Mores of Maharashtra, Dhakas/Bohras/Baruas, Katarias/Kathurias etc have common ancestory as the Jats.

Hope somebody puts national integration above what is being discussed right now.

[ravichaudhary]

Betaal bhai

I would request somebody to find connections between north and south India, some history proving / disproving that rao/naidus of Andhra, Mores of Maharashtra, Dhakas/Bohras/Baruas, Katarias/Kathurias etc have common ancestory as the Jats.

Hope somebody puts national integration above what is being discussed right now.

What has belief in national integration got to do with research?

Are you suggsetiong that the Jats should give up their heritage, because of some " belief in national integration" you would like to see promoted?

If the Jats are exploring therir history, and if the research leads them to a connexion with Scandinavia, why should Jats ignore it?

As for the connexion with South India, that is also being explored,

but why should the other avenues be ignored or pooh poohed?


Ravi Chaudhary

[narenderkharb]

Dear Sampuran
I have great respect for your patriotic feelings.
I assure you jats,as happened in the past will never allow the enemies of our country to succeed in their nefarios designs.
Your Hindutava leaning are to obvious to hide and we see nothing wrong in it.

But we are confused by your statements that no north south divide,people getting mixed,no identification from one another meaning what is the use of searching your roots. Ok....Agreed with you...

Now who are we? Almost the single largest group of north and north west,What our fore fathers did?I see some of your posts directly reposted from INDIA Discussion group so I see you intimately assosiated with that.they say jats low farm labourers,foreigners etc. going to the extent of abusing us also You keep silent.
You starts a thread dropping hints to relate jats with gypsies who are in a negative light without any such thing in the article itself.you give hints that we may be related to chamars
When we say that in history books we have been wrongly represented,not considered warriors but sudras your typical answer was IT IS NOT MY BUSINESS IF ANY BODY CONSIDER YOU KSHATRIYA OR NOT

Then how my friend your business get affected when we start our initiative to educate people like you to understand look our forefathers were the kings of this land and history which you are telling has no base,thatourbrothers went as far as germany and gave birth to many civilizations

I would have respected you if you could tell you are wrong and this is reason instead, you don't give reason and say you are wrong . Any reason

we need your presence as through you we can tell hindutava lobby,what you say culture and relgion was given by us to you and you only know cast and khatriya sudra words only.

Please take all this in right spirit and critcise us with proofs it will be of immense help.Sorry if I offended you.

I sent a post to member area can moderator put that on jat history.

[lrburdak]

Appeal

Respected members of the Jatland !!!
You may agree or disagree with any body but please keep a decorum. That is expected from any member of a civilized society. History is based on certain facts which can not be washed away with imaginations. If you have certain facts put them on this and we will corrct accordingly.

Thor and Dagur gods of Scandinavia, Thori and Dagur Jats of India

Thor and Dagur gods of Scandinavia are well discussed in Norse mythology. Simultaniously we find Thori and Dagur Jat gotras in India. Members may comment on similarities. Here is description about Thor and Dagur gods of Scandinavia from WIKIPEDIA.ORG site:
Thor
Thor features strongly in the Prose Edda of Snorri Sturluson, in which Thor's many conflicts with the race of giants are a main source of plots. As Snorri portrays him, Thor is a straightforward god, not necessarily the wisest or most intelligent; for instance, he is thoroughly made a fool of by the mysterious Utgardaloki and his magic spells. However, in the Codex Regius, the primary source of the Poetic Edda, Thor outwits the dwarf, AlvÃ*ss, in the AlvÃ*ssmál. Thor is the most powerful of the gods and protects Asgard and Midgard .
Thor Family
Thor was the son of Odin and Jord (Earth). His wife was called Sif, and little is known of her except that she had golden hair, which was made for her by the dwarfs after Loki had cut off her hair. With Jarnsaxa, Thor had the son Magni and with Sif he had Thrud and Modi. He also had a stepson called Ullr who was a son of Sif.

Most of the surviving myths centre on Thor's exploits, and from this and inscriptions on monuments we know that Thor was very much the favorite deity of ancient Scandinavians
Reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Dagur
Dagr ("day", modern Scandinavian: Dag, modern Icelandic: Dagur) was, in Norse mythology, the god of the daytime, a son of Delling (god of twilight) and Nótt (or Nótt brother) (goddess of night). Dagr, the Bright and the Fair, drove across the sky in a chariot every day, pulled by a horse named Skinfaxi. Skinfaxi's mane lights up the earth and sky. Nott's equivalent horse, Hrimfaxi, lights up the night.
Reference
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagur

[narenderkharb]

Laxman JI
In addition to pointing out to these Gods You should also say why and how are they related to Dagars and tor jats,otherwise rational thinking person will again and again will make mockery of such type of history.

[sampuran]

Kharab Bhai,
Sorry, but you have not understood the spirit of what I have said so far. Yes we may be related to Scythians, Huns Germans, Irelanders etc. Let people continue to dig those links out. In fact, some months back I had myself pointed out that Scottish use similar sounding words for counting as we do in Hindi. My only submission is that PRIORITY BE GIVEN TO BRIDGING THE CASTE AND REGIONAL DIVIDES WITHIN THE INDIAN SOCIETY.
Agreed Jats may have migrated all over to Asia and Europe. But does it not seem equally likely that they would have migrated southwards and eastwards as well. How do we assume that Europeans are closer to us than the people in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu ? Ravan ko bhi Vedon ka pandit mana jata hai. If he was totally a different race, why was he studying Vedas ?
It is ridiculous to see Indians living with caste and linguistic differences even when they are outside India. By all means we can organize ourselves into social groups for mutual benefit. Should it mean that we look down upon each other because of these things that are only detrimental to national health.
Will it not be better if - Gaam guhand ka theka to hum le lein, lekin apne ghar mein bhi ekta bana lein.

[sktewatia]

European Surname - Indian Goth of Jats

Schiller - Chhiller Jats
Klein - Kallan Jats
Rose - Rose Jat
Hall - Hala Jat
Henz/Hanz - Hans Jat
Gill - Gill Jat
Mann - Mann
Dillon - Dhillon
More - More/Mor
Lamb - Lamba
Gadd - Gath(wal)
Baynce - Bains
Bender - Bhinder
Mongait - Mangat
Buhller - Bhuller
Teuton - Teoti(a)/Tewatia
Minns - Minhas
Roth - Rathi
Dabs - Dabas
Meyer - Mehr/Mer

[narenderkharb]

Sampuran ji

I have pointed again and again and again and again.....

Jat is not a caste will you take a note of it. It is a race a race.....

JAT Race include people of one genetic line excelling in different fields such as agriculture military academics.

Brahman and rajput could be a caste of different people doing certain(pooja or w a r) work.

Dhanna jat defeated every body in bhakati also

Your assumptions of society is based on strict compartmentalisation of works for different people giving birth to heriditary cast system which is rootcause of exploitation,it becomes quite evident when you say that if bania become kshatriya where kshtriya will go.Jats are against cast and explotation.
If you want to help hindu change your attitude and work against castism.

We are comparing ourselves to germans because they are found to have our genes,see the genetics of jat race.They have gotr schillar which is so similar to chillar as pointed by tewatia.
We are not comparing to south Indians because we find seprate genes,there gotr not matchig with ours.what can we do about that?
You want history to be discovered or fabricated for national integration.
what happens to this commadere when you say I have nothing to do.......
You appreciate fabrication of history as RAJARAM Harppa seal we do not.

Sampuran ji exploring our roots is not akin to sepratism,correct us if we are wrong in our assumptions but let us help in our endevaours.

Please see jats relation with south also in my post at jat history I have pointed how these Iyyers and Iyyengars our pujaris went towards south as our northern pandits arrived from pamirs.,it was found due the present of genetic evidences.

[arunshamli]

I can agree that jat is not caste it is a race....lekin ye bhee toh ho sakta hai ke kuch jat hindu bhee hon...

I consider my self a hindu jat and not a separate race....and may be I am wrong ..but I doubt it.....

and no one should have any problem with that. you have your idea and I have mine.

It is good to research the history, but if someone makes such a big claim about the history, they are liable to give the proof. and I have seen in this post, some people just keep saying thing.....and when asked about the proof, they do not like it.

if you make a cliam and you are a historian, please tell about yourself. how many books you have written? how many papers you have published? Where did you study? Is history your major? which university? what books have you read?

I think this should be a good proof and people will start taking this thread seriously. or at least I will take it seriously....

[betaal]

Jat is a race? Since when?
There are only 3 races in the world - white, black and mongoloid.
I never read a book where it says jat is a race.
But some of our people(I love my people just like rahul gandhi does and preaches:D) can write a book about jat being a race.
Is jat a white race, a black race or a mongoloid race?
I see jats of different colours and shapes.
Jats of brown colour, light brown colour, black colour, wheatish colour and colours I cannot define correctly.
Just because names sound similiar does not indicate they are related to each other.
Original Natives of australia/new zealand/america have english names and that does not mean they are English or european.
I will be proud when my people(jats) begin to realize that it is a proud thing to be known as an Indian and a jat then try to find ways to attach themself to germans/goths/romainians/gypsies/turks/middle eastern people/and every thing not Indian.
Be proud, be a jat.

[narenderkharb]

Arun please see some of my posts under missing link in jat history and then tell what querry doyou have for which you want a proof?
It is good to be scientific in your apporach.

[sampuran]

Ravi Bhai,
Not even once have I suggested that Jats should give up their heritage.
Pl check all my posts till date and give one example that indicated I am trying to phoo phoo what is being discussed about Jat connections outside India.

Sampuran ji

I have pointed again and again and again and again.....

Jat is not a caste will you take a note of it. It is a race a race.....

JAT Race include people of one genetic line excelling in different fields such as agriculture military academics.

Sampuran ji exploring our roots is not akin to sepratism,correct us if we are wrong in our assumptions but let us help in our endevaours.

Kharab bhai, if Jat is a race, then members of this race today will be doing all types of professional activities. If they can be in military, academia, agriculture etc, why not Chamars. The whole basis of the discussion here is similar sounding gotr/sir names. Kataria goth is found in Jats and also in some Chamars. Is it too far fetched to say that either the Chamars were also Jats at some point of time or other way round or the Chamars are still Jats ?


Agreed exploring roots is not akin to seperatism. I am not saying we are promoting seperatism. We may in fact, be promoting cross cultural integration. What I am trying to say is that seperatism already exists. Lets try to sort that out first. People may not aagree with this approach, its fine. We all have viewpoint.

Any further discussion we can have through e-mail. Because we ae not adding a bit to the subject matter. Hope my previous note is already with you.