Agreed. But dont bank onthe muslims and christians. Mohammed hisself has said for his followers - Dont even trust your family members, if they are not muslims.Originally Posted by narenderkharb
And Hadiths are full of stories where his followers killed their own wives, brothers, parents, friends just because of this indoctrination.
Of course, when a muslim gives up Islam, he is again a full Jat.
- In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.
Sampuran ji
jats can never be forced to reconvert.
They converted to Islam on seeing the vices of our religion like castism,unequality,and dakosala of karmkand by our brahmans,and due to the sufi wave which swept west punjab.
I agree to you, they might not have been very happy when they might have discovered such hate as you mention there.
But to ask them to join us we have to show ourself the best.
Today also one foreigner lady who spent so much time in adopting hindhu religion and philosphy is denied entry to a temple saying she is melechha.
Today also we find RSS head advocating castism with the pretext that it was a way of reservation,thanks for the revelations,what a cruel apathy to sufferings of millions of our downtrodden people.
Kanshi ram in his intrerview to times of india in 1989 said ,who says jinnah made pakistan,it was founded by jats who voluntarily converted to muslim religion against inequalities and poplila of brahmans,jinnah just took the credit for it.
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Jats gave two epiques and stories in hindu religion viz. Ramyan and Mahabharat.
Kharab Bhai,
Ram Ram. I wouldnt entirely agree that muslim Jats dont want to reconvert. you must have heard about 'mole' (Haryanvi pronunciation) Jats. They were forcibly converted at some point of time but revolted and became Hindus again. They cut off all ties with Islam and follow original Hindu culture.
Some years back many such people whose roots were in Gahlot gotr wanted to rejoin the parental body. In fact, they have been trying sinc independence ! The Gahlot khap of Haryana and Delhi welcomed them in with the traditional Havan n hukka.
However, when they started looking for matches for marriagable young people, other Jat gotras wouldlnt relent. People went almost all over Haryana, Delhi and western UP but to get disappointed. We Jats failed them. We could not rise above closed mindset or gather the courage to give a helping hand to the brothers who needed it. What was the end of the story I dont know.
Lets recall the root of the Kashmir problem and what the Kashmiris wanted to do in 17th century. They wanted to return to Hindu fold but the Pandas of Baneras refused. Today whole of India must be regretting that foolishness.
I think we will have to face the bigger issue at some stage as we talk of brotherhood of the Jats. Merely Jat geneology may not hold much attraction when the religious & regional differences and prejudics are so strong between Hindus and Muslims, Muslims and Sikhs, Sikhs and others etc.
So what is the unblemished glue that can appeal to every Jat today irrespective of his other affiliations ? What is that slogan which can encourage us to give up differences & ideologies to follow a path of integration ?
Who is that lady you have mentioned ? I think its for Jats to correct the wrongdoings of these scums.
RSS encouraging casteism is purely tactical. Within their organisation they dont ask your caste. But they are doing so so that Dalits remain within the Hindu fold for the attraction of Govt jobs. It also forc the Christists and Muslims either to accept that they have also been practicing casteism, if they want to get benefits of reservations. If they dont accept, the converts are not entitled reservations.
Its a tricky issue. But RSS r or for that matter who wants to demolish casteism, has a Hobson's choice.
what Kanshi Ram says can have hidden meaning. Also it again suggests what I said above - religious differences amongst Jats are too deep to be bridged till Muslims remain muslims.
- In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.
Facts are just reverse ...... What I failed to comprehend is that if the Brahmins came from outside, how did they manage to sit on our heads ?
When we consider other outsiders like British or Muslims, they brought in totally a new socio-cultural-religious thought. But the Brahmins didnt. The underlying philosophy of Indian culture did not change why ?
Any gues wround what period did the Brahmins come ?
- In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.
They never sat on our head,but to the contrary we sat on their head,and they called us kshtriya,since their kshtriya were totally bitten by us,they keep on complaining this in their literature,which you are seeing and beliving and in real life they were given the same respect as given today by our elders.Though our native pujaris adopted their karmkand for selfish gains,but there varanas etc were totally rejected by our elders so much so that they almost left this land to gangatic plain a, historic fact noted in purans b y their absence from this Indus area.
What do you think were they native to this land?
Who do you think is older to indian mythology?
LORD SHIVA AND MOTHER GODDESS.
Or LORD INDRA MITRA VARUN.
What do you belive that lord pasupati as found in harppan seal was another god ,who was he?
Since the genetics of brahman have shown the pronounced effect of Europian genes why it is so?
Why rajputs which you think could have been ancient kshtriyas found tobe different group from brahmans despite so many puranic stories of niyogas?
What was the name of this group whose brahmans were a part?
Were there no kashtriya in that group,if they were, where are they now ?
where did that encounter between brahman's original kashtriya and jats took place where they first time saw the most dangerous weapons...LATTH.
So many more qustions but let us start with lord shiva only.
Narender Bhai
You have raised some very interesting questions.
Before I can even answer any of them, lets first try to get at a rough chronology of Indian civillisation.
I think that the Vedas are older than the big floods i.e more than 10000 yrs. Because the extent to which speech and language have been logically (and scientifically) devloped in Sanskrit, it looks improbable that it was done in 7000 Bc or later. In that case scientific progress would have continued beyond that time. But, there does not exist any material proof that civillisations were scientifically advanced in all spheres.
Vedas have always been considered to be religious text. To my mind they are three in one - historical, spiritual and scientific. Otherwise how does one explain the Shankaracharya being able to derive mathematical concepts from single words written at different places in different Vedas.
Fortunately, we have our own Sanskrit Shashtri Dayanand Deswal bhai who can help us in this regard.
Perhaps you can give your opinion and further chronology of events starting from the origin of Indian civillisation till Swami Dayanand's time.
There is some dichotomy in the upper caste and European connection. One one hand the Genetic Research claims genetic similarity and which you are relating to the brahmins. While on the other, at many places on this forum, members have been pointing out similarities between Jat names/gotrs vis a vis Turkey, Portugal, Germany, Romania, Denmark, Scotland etc. This seems to indicate similarity between Jats and Europeans. Which one is true ?
- In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.
Thanks Sampuran bhai for joining our efforts to see the validty of various assumptions.I tried to start this on Jat history group but I think Ravi ji is busy some where else,I tried to involve vinod bhai and deshwal ji also as we could get the real sanskrit meaning of different salokas of vedas,I myself belong to a arya samaj family,but we wanted to search out our real roots and history may not be same as religion as tewatia ji pointed out earlier.
Before starting any argument I want to make clear that I have started this with an aim to clear muddled picture about who were the earlier inhabitants jats or brahmans in this land of seven rivers.
Our discussions would be more of informative not argumantative in nature.
I will never hesitate to accept any point which clearly proves that jats were later enterant,as I wrote so many times,we don't want a false legacy.
We shall refrain from pure imaginations or assumptions that does not carry any meaning in any logical reasoning process.
We shall discuss it point by point if possible.
Let us start now.
Your assumption that vedas may be older than 10000 years ago.....
Its a pure imagination.
What is the base?
So we should try to avoid bringing such pure speculative assumptions as they carry no meaning in any logical discussion process,as such distractions always produce futile excercise.
However I would like to point out why it is wrong.
If you refer journey of mankind ,and views of various scientists they clearly point that agriculture never started earlier than 10000 BC, that case reciting slokas or even thinking of it while you were running with a spear in your hand is really a fantacy of little significance.
Your second querry about roots of jats in the world we are talking about those jats who migrated from our land to other lands.
What is the proof they went from indus areas?
Science says so ,This is explained by those genetic discoveries which shows our genes older than jats of eurasia.
You can refer journey of mankind.
However case with brahmans is different,they are said to have Europian genes whose origin is from foregin lands.
NOW START FROM QUESTION ONE
Who do you think is older to indian mythology?
Sampuran ji kahan chale gaye?
DESHWAL SHAEB ,
I NEED SOME HELP FROM YOU,AS YOU ARE AN EXPERT IN SANSKRIT.
Can you tell me in Rigveda what is written about river sarswati,
I want specific information identifiying its locations its size(huge )and and
areas throug which it passes.
which river is bigger sarswati or sindhu.
which is mentioned how many times?
Which is mentioned earlier which is later?
Please translate from sanskrit version of Rig veda if possible.
When river Ganga is mentioed for the first time?
Help is also sought from other worthy members of this site.
valuable inputs from all members interested in history section is expected.
Purans mention that earth was taken out after Samudr Manthan. But not the Vedas. The recession of great floods is taken as 10000 BC. So I think that Vedas are older than that time.
I guess the Age of Ramayan is pretty much established. The relevant extracts are given below -
The Valmiki Ramayana in Sanskrit as also the Tulsi Ramayana by Saint Tulsidas in Hindi are extremely popular volumes throughout India and abroad. But is Ramayana a description of the lives and times of Lord Rama and the Raghukul (the descendants of King Raghu) and the times during an unknown period of India’s ancient “history” or is it nothing but an epic which, Hindus believe to be a true account of the events in ancient India?
Shri Pushkar Bhatnagar, who is a computer expert, claims that he has not only calculated the exact date and time of Lord Rama’s birth, but all happenings in his life till his age of 39 years, when he had returned to Ayodhya after slaying Ravana. According to him Lord Rama was born at 12.30 p.m. on January 10, 5114 b.c. Shri Bhatnagar has relied entirely on the positions of the sun, the moon and the planets, visible to the naked eye those days, described by Sage Valmiki in his Ramayana for calculating the day and even time of many of the events in the life of Lord Rama.
This article is merely a rewriting of the letter of Shri Bhatnagar published by Asian Agri History, dated October-December, 2004, a magazine which is devoted to discovering and writing about the ancient systems of agriculture that was in vogue in the Asian region in ancient times.
Hope we can find some similar astronomical observations in the Vedas to establish their antiquity.
What came first in mythology ? Frankly, no opinion.
- In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.
When we say vedas were earlier to creation of earth by samundar manthan than we are talking in mythological sense but historicaly it seems impossible.
RELIGIOUS BELIEFS ARE SO DEAR AND SCREAD THAT ANY ONE IS HARD TO CONVINCE ON THAT.
CHRISTIANS BELIVED THAT EARTH WAS CREATED IN 4000BC,NOW YOU SHOULD NOT DOUBT THAT TOO.
They have their own belief as you have your own.
However decoding astronomical code in vedas can be a solid point.
Talking of mythology, we have to seperate fiction from fact. Its quite possible that the writer of samudr manthan decided to overdo the recding of floods ino a story of Devtas and Asuras co-operating to flush out the earth.
Anyway lets move to the next point.
When did this word JAT originate ? And where ?
- In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.
Jat word is (adee )we see no origin.
We see these people vedic calling themselves jats
Indra is called Sujat=Good jat, Avestan literature called these asur and sur both as jajats.
Inhabitants of anatolia which is stated to be the earlier home vedic people call themselves jats juts till today.
When these people returned we see avestan people calling them yatus (y is used by these people for j as yahvir=jasbir)and vedic calling them yats or yaksh,mystifying the same way as they mystified kinnur gandhrv kirat etc..Presence of jats always when these people came to this land shows continous inhabitance of this land from ancient times
What happened most likely after migration from indian lands in ancient times these groups developed vedic form of worship mixed with different people developed new genome over a period of time and then returned via Russian steppes,this is my hypothesis which may not be entirly true ,but there is no doubt that they do emigrate to india much later,
Dr. Tewatia mentioned the name of one famous scientist in one of his post who says that these aryans are just the nordic branch of jats.
I posted one qustion for you under jats Europian pride thread ,that clearly smashes all your so called assumptions about nativity of vedic persons,Can you answer that?
You just see how these people who never knew RAMA,KRISHNA,SHIVA, when they were in west,starts knowing them slowly when they reaches indian lands.
Kharab Bhai,
Having read your various postulates about ancient to medieval Jat history, I am thoroughly confused.
Sometimes Jats are found in Vedas, but Vedic brahmins are outsiders.
Jats founded the Indus valley civillisation but some tribes came from outside to make North and Western India as main Jatland. Some went out upto Juttland but the Aryan lands are spread inbetween their path of migration or conquest.
Brahmins imposed their vedic practices when they arrived here by cleverly mixing them with the stories of Ramayan and Mahabharat. Then they went onto baptise the natives to Hindunise them.
Then the dates of Vedas, Ramayan Mahabharat, Puranas, etc are not clear.
As I had suggested elsewhere, may be you can give a chronology starting from earliest times till the coming of muslim invadors.
- In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.
If you give a little of your precious time and read my earlier post bit seriously before writing another post your confusions will be automatically cleared.
I told you jats found mention in vedas as these indra mitra told their writers that we are sujat or Zoraster told both asur a nd sur gods were jajats so these pujaris had to write in vedas that these are called so.So they find mention in vedas.
Why vedic brahmans became outsiders I explained but please read it.before searching another question.
Indus valley jats lived here since day one where you saw my post saying that they came from outside,where are you centered?
Bhai I told you that these pujaris had nothing to offer except a mystified vedas with the help of some local pujaris who saw material gains in that,they dropped their gods left their khatri,khatti,and adopted rama krishana.
So what you call hinduism was given to them by our ancestors.
And BTW....PLEASE ANSWER AT LEAST ONE OF MY QUESTION ALSO YARR.
Last edited by narenderkharb; March 8th, 2006 at 10:48 PM.
Sampuran Bhai
When you get confused reading the scientific evidences did you ever felt how people would have gone mad when you started a discussion with a dialogue that veda are ancient to the creation of earth?
Let us keep the discussion to jat history section.
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Originally Posted by narenderkharb
