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Thread: Jats as the most backward community

  1. #21
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    I differ from you Pawanji, that even 50% Jats are doing well in all spheres. More and more Jat youths are rather turning towards crime due to the lack of employment. In IIT Delhi out of total 250 (for under graduated course) I was lone Jat in my batch. In those days we used to form Surajmal Institute in Janakpuri in Delhi (its still there) for giving coaching and hostel facilities to Jat boys for competitive exams. As the general Jat was of the view that our representation is not satisfactory over there.

    I've been repeatedly saying that reservation on economic means and so many ideal good thoughts are good but its not in our hand to implement it. And that stage itself has gone now. Our country is not in the hands of idealist politicians. We have to choose for ourselves and struggle for one out of this wrong phenomenon.

    And now simply remaining idealists and lost in good thoughts will be self determental only in my opinion not to you n me like people but to a general average Jat.

    The total number of Jat IAS (in India) officers etc. has increased after the reservation of Jats in OBC in Rajasthan. Because some are coming in general category and some are through OBC in Rajasthan. If other Jat states also join it then this number will increase or decrease? Which way is our benefit?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by raj2rif View Post
    Dear Dr. Sahab,
    Your post is not understood.
    I don't know what relevence this statement has with the topic that we are discussing?
    Further it would be an ideal situation to have a 0% cirme rate among our community be it Rajasthan, UP, Haryana or Punjab and even MP (there are some in MP also). However your statement probably may fall short of evidence while dividing the community on the basis of crime rate, within the different states.
    Log milte gaye aur kaarvaan banta gaya!

    However, I have no intention to divide Jats on state basis or otherwise. Our own origin is from Rajasthan, Januthal, Teoti on Deegh kama road, but as idealist people we would have been lost in blue! selling our lands n distributing it amonst the beggars so that every body is equal n even if he is not then at least we Jats are always there to make him equal, n ??? but again Sir

    what else remains in this logic?

    I again ask you this question that whether "Rajasthan Jats are wiser or fools?" plz take your own time!

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by raj2rif View Post
    Dear Dr. Sahab,

    The answer to your question depends on the perception of the people. Traditionally we the Jat Community had been against reservation, based on the caste and religion. If that be so, the answer is "NO".

    However, there is a saying, that if you can't compete then join the competition. If that be so, the answer is "YES".

    The question is that of perception. Many things change due the demography of the area. While Jats may be a majority community in Haryana, it is minority community in most of the central, and south indian states. Demography of the area plays a big role in politics and political decision making. You just can't have a same yard stick for different demographic areas. Each situation is different. For finding a lasting solution to any problem, specific treatment and brain storming needs to be done.

    Reservation of any kind in any society, is not good for the development of any nation specially if it is based on the caste system. That is the truth. Whether or not we have the will to change it, is another question. Late Mr. R.K. Hegde as the CM of Karnataka did try a very innovative solution, by giving the idea of including every single person in the reservation system.
    The idea is great and can be implemented. You have every one qualify for reservation (100%) population based on the caste. Then priorities is based on the economic strength of the family that person comes from.

    In any situation the competence of the individual should not be compromised, for if we have mediocre people making decisoins or performing surgeries or desigining bridges, we would have mediocre results only.

    I have tried to answer your single question in best possible manner that I can within the constraints of time. I hope it would help a little.
    I dnt say that nothing depends upon our perception, yes we are also there, but hardly 1%. The one percent of the population of India can not change the ideology of remaining 99% people here.

    Suppose your brigadier orders you to do something, what will be your answere? That till the reservation is not done on economic basis I'll not act?
    n Suppose your brigadier is corrupt, then what will you do?

    That I'll wait for the right time to attack till my all brigadiers are idealist like me?

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by captkalkal View Post
    Dear Friends,

    I do remember the Anti-Mandal days when I was just a student of 9th class
    in Jat HMAS High School,Rohtak,as a teenager we were only aware of the thing that reservation is only given to a selective few to 'uplift' their caste from 'poor' status.We opposed that thing as we were all preparing for Medical/Engg entrance and we thought that our survival was under threat.

    But somehow I realise that the same logic for opposing reservation on caste basis is applicable now also !! I don't know much about the glorious history of Jats but I do know that presently if not a majority but atleast 50% Jats are doing well in all spheres of life.

    It is again not a question of false pride of being from a so called 'upper caste' but the fact remains that Jats have been traditionally opposed to reservation on caste basis.It will be morally wrong to demand the same when it comes to our benefit. If I'm correct Ch Devilal was 'dismissed' of the Vice PM ship on the same issue (Being the only Senior Minister in history to be dismissed in this fashion).He never said that Jats should be included in OBC's.

    We all know that caste based res has only brought jobs to a selective few in SC's/BC's and OBC's, so why get after the 'Mrigtrishna' again when the upliftment of caste as a whole is not assured . The question here is whether the Bechara Jamindar who lives in village will get the benifit of this sort of reservation ? I think it will be you and me who will enjoy the cream..........

    To cut it short reservation should be based on Economic basis only.
    yes I know that caste based reservations must have benefitted only a selected few among the creamy layers. But a Gujar, Yadav or n e other OBC from the creamy layer among them would not have been like you Pawan ji, as a jat even if from creamy layer, to be among we people and sharing his thoughts, among we jats today!!!1

  5. #25
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    He (Surajmal) ruled in the age of treachery

    that time it was the biggest question that whether Jats should go for Kingship, like Rjaputs, or not? Churaman consumed poison, perhaps, due to this. n there was Badan Singh.

    Things were not easy to handle. but, certain commonsense should have prevailed.

    it was the wisest decision to go for kingship that time.!!!!!
    Last edited by sktewatia; September 15th, 2006 at 02:04 PM.

  6. #26
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    though he wore the dress of farmer......

    but there was no comparison of this man in managing civil affairs.....

  7. #27
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    Not imposing my ideas on others, I found it rather too easy question. If we dnt understand reservation question then we'll be the worst loosers. And if we understand then we will be the best gainers.
    Last edited by sktewatia; September 15th, 2006 at 02:39 PM.

  8. #28
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    We are at the bottom in forward castes. When reservation was not there our percentage in government job was too less. After its implementation it will further decrease. The condition will really be miserable for Jat.
    Last edited by sktewatia; September 15th, 2006 at 02:43 PM.

  9. #29
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    I would not have stressed this issue to this extent. But we are most forward in OBC and most backward in forward classes. So, among all the castes in India this issue is most vital for Jat.
    Last edited by sktewatia; September 15th, 2006 at 02:55 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by captkalkal View Post
    I don't know much about the glorious history of Jats but I do know that presently if not a majority but atleast 50% Jats are doing well in all spheres of life.

    It is again not a question of false pride of being from a so called 'upper caste' but the fact remains that Jats have been traditionally opposed to reservation on caste basis.It will be morally wrong to demand the same when it comes to our benefit. If I'm correct Ch Devilal was 'dismissed' of the Vice PM ship on the same issue (Being the only Senior Minister in history to be dismissed in this fashion).He never said that Jats should be included in OBC's.

    We all know that caste based res has only brought jobs to a selective few in SC's/BC's and OBC's, so why get after the 'Mrigtrishna' again when the upliftment of caste as a whole is not assured . The question here is whether the Bechara Jamindar who lives in village will get the benifit of this sort of reservation ? I think it will be you and me who will enjoy the cream..........

    To cut it short reservation should be based on Economic basis only.
    jaton ne ek to muutt peeva pradhan mantri banaya aur do mahan rajput. bahut badhiya!

    aur vo bante hi aap/hum hi ko dismiss kar rahe hain! even charan singh was also almost dismissed.

    ek tughlak bhi tum/hum maharathi jaton ne banaya hoga.

    vo hai ke uuntt ko rail ke dibbe me chadhana aur jat ko samjhana bahut mushkil hai.

    plz dnt take it otherwise as I'm also Jat.
    Last edited by sktewatia; September 15th, 2006 at 02:28 PM.

  11. #31
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    jin ko aap pradhan mantri bana rahe hain vo aap ko dismiss kar rahe hain, good example, ki phir bhi aap nahin samajh rahe hain ki aap ke prati forward caste ka kya attitude hai?
    Last edited by sktewatia; September 15th, 2006 at 02:17 PM.

  12. #32

    Relevence?

    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    I dnt say that nothing depends upon our perception, yes we are also there, but hardly 1%. The one percent of the population of India can not change the ideology of remaining 99% people here.

    Suppose your brigadier orders you to do something, what will be your answere? That till the reservation is not done on economic basis I'll not act?
    n Suppose your brigadier is corrupt, then what will you do?

    That I'll wait for the right time to attack till my all brigadiers are idealist like me?
    Dear Dr. Sahab,

    It looks to me that you have no idea whatsoever about soldiering. Unfortunately I have neither the energy nor the time to start teaching/preaching about soldiering at this site.
    Some how, I am unable to understand the relevence of your posts to the subject matter that you, yourself started.
    All that I am able to make out, that whatever the Rajasthan Jats have done that his right and all other Jats must do it, irrespective of their views on subject or their compulsions either for pride or for any other reason. And if they don't agree with your view point, they are neither jats nor sane people.
    I guess, when the logic of arguments reach this limit, it would be difficult as well as pointless to discuss the subject.
    Keep living in your dream world and be happy. We have our good wishes with you.
    Some people have a very narrow vision and some a little bigger. It is your choice. Please respect others views as you want your veiws to be respected by others. There should not be any hard feelings, if some one does not agree with you.
    If you put forward a strong argument, let me assure you, most people would agree with you, but then that requires a lot more study and probably intensive research as well as power of expression in a manner that it is understood by the recepients.
    Col (Retd) Virendra Tavathia


    "A person should not be judged by the nature of his/her job, but the manner in which he/she does that".

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post

    vo hai ke uuntt ko rail ke dibbe me chadhana aur jat ko samjhana bahut mushkil hai.
    Ha ha ha.....

    I agree on that count .

    My south indian friend used to say

    Two things are really difficult.
    1 south indian khana banana..(involved lot of infradients in single item)
    2 jat ko koi bat samajhana

  14. #34
    Dear Col.Saheb

    Please don't take tewatia ji viewsw otherwise as he never availed it and neither want it for himself.He is one among a breed totally devoted to community cause .So his comments should be taken in proper perspective.

  15. #35
    Dear Col Saheb

    Though I usally avoid this current affair as I agree with my friend deswal saheb that it is just a form for politics but some issues are too important to be ignored for the future of our younger generation.

    Reservation is one such issue.

    Now I am little confused about your stand ..

    What you say jats should not join as it is aginst moral ethics.

    Or jats should not join as they will be treated backward.

    Or jats should join when reservation is properly implemented (exclusion of creamy layer etc. )

    Please take the pain of repetition as the guidance of senior members are very helpful in building an openion and taking vital decisions.

  16. #36

    My Own Opinion

    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Dear Col Saheb

    Though I usally avoid this current affair as I agree with my friend deswal saheb that it is just a form for politics but some issues are too important to be ignored for the future of our younger generation.

    Reservation is one such issue.

    Now I am little confused about your stand ..

    What you say jats should not join as it is aginst moral ethics.

    Or jats should not join as they will be treated backward.

    Or jats should join when reservation is properly implemented (exclusion of creamy layer etc. )

    Please take the pain of repetition as the guidance of senior members are very helpful in building an openion and taking vital decisions.
    Dear Mr. Kharab,
    I and many others like me, have always opposed the reservation policy.
    Being backward or forward has nothing to do with the caste. This is again a perception. With my definition, the backward is one who probably averse to changes. Interestingly the question may come up as to why don't I change my opinion on reservatioin?
    The question is what is the purpose? What was the purpose for which reservation was created? Did it achieve its objectives? Did it create more porblems than it solved?
    There is nothing wrong in helping poor people financially to pursue their higher education goals. But to say reservations, where a less competent person is promoted as against a more competent person can only harm the society. We have seen these results over the past six decades in our country.
    Now, the question is what do we do. We can fight against it or we can join the system. If Rajasthan Jats have preferred to join the system, there is nothing wrong in it, for they might have found the fight being either too difficult or may be it could be a good idea to join the system and then fight for it (how ethical or moral that would be I leave it to the readers to judge for themselves).
    I had also given the idea propogated by Late Mr. R.K. Hegde, who wanted all Indians to be included in reservations. Good idea, include all castes and then priorities it based on the economic strength of the individual.
    My personal opinion is that we should not have any reservations any where whether it is for admission to the schools or jobs. That should be a level and fair field for all. Now the question comes how to create a fair play ground for people coming from rural areas who did not have the same quality education as the people from city have? That is the area what needs to be addressed. We need to create infrastructure in the rural areas for quality education. Till the time we are able to create this equality, it may be a good idea to give a very little advantage to the people coming from rural or remote areas as they might not have got opportunity to develop their skills.(again that is a very little that does not unbalances the competition, and if we can't find this fine balance then probably do away with it and wait till the time we are able to create this infrastructure.
    Another aspect is why do we have all the new educational institutions coming up in cities only? Let us develop the educational infrastructure in rural areas. This will prevent the rural people moving to cities, as well as create additional jobs in rural areas itself.
    I hope I am able to explain my views.
    Col (Retd) Virendra Tavathia


    "A person should not be judged by the nature of his/her job, but the manner in which he/she does that".

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by raj2rif View Post
    Dear Mr. Kharab,
    I and many others like me, have always opposed the reservation policy.
    Being backward or forward has nothing to do with the caste. This is again a perception. With my definition, the backward is one who probably averse to changes. Interestingly the question may come up as to why don't I change my opinion on reservatioin?
    The question is what is the purpose? What was the purpose for which reservation was created? Did it achieve its objectives? Did it create more porblems than it solved?
    There is nothing wrong in helping poor people financially to pursue their higher education goals. But to say reservations, where a less competent person is promoted as against a more competent person can only harm the society. We have seen these results over the past six decades in our country.
    Now, the question is what do we do. We can fight against it or we can join the system. If Rajasthan Jats have preferred to join the system, there is nothing wrong in it, for they might have found the fight being either too difficult or may be it could be a good idea to join the system and then fight for it (how ethical or moral that would be I leave it to the readers to judge for themselves).
    I had also given the idea propogated by Late Mr. R.K. Hegde, who wanted all Indians to be included in reservations. Good idea, include all castes and then priorities it based on the economic strength of the individual.
    My personal opinion is that we should not have any reservations any where whether it is for admission to the schools or jobs. That should be a level and fair field for all. Now the question comes how to create a fair play ground for people coming from rural areas who did not have the same quality education as the people from city have? That is the area what needs to be addressed. We need to create infrastructure in the rural areas for quality education. Till the time we are able to create this equality, it may be a good idea to give a very little advantage to the people coming from rural or remote areas as they might not have got opportunity to develop their skills.(again that is a very little that does not unbalances the competition, and if we can't find this fine balance then probably do away with it and wait till the time we are able to create this infrastructure.
    Another aspect is why do we have all the new educational institutions coming up in cities only? Let us develop the educational infrastructure in rural areas. This will prevent the rural people moving to cities, as well as create additional jobs in rural areas itself.
    I hope I am able to explain my views.

    Dear Col Saheb

    The hegade formula is the best but alas we don't have this formula so such formulas are irrelevant in our discussion.

    Now our community is at crosssroad and we are in a confusion what should be our stand and hence the openion of seniors are solicited at such junctures.

    Now let me understand and summersie you.

    First you are against it.
    As you can't see what is the purpose of reservation.
    And it is agaist the competition and talent.
    That it had created more problems.

    Than you admit that rural population are disadvantaged in oppertunities
    and see no harm in giving them some weightage but than move that even this should better wait and infrastructures should be provided instead.
    You don't see any backward forward or leave ethics to members. OK...


    Now col saheb please ponder and than give me clear answers.....

    Are jobs and oppertunities are offered and cornered on the basis of talent ..

    Do all the inhabitants of our nation have equal oppertunities.

    Do you suggest people whether living in rural areas dalits adivasis or poorer people have less talent than those people with better access to means of influence.

    I believe almost every person will agree that rural and other disadvantaged sections are not less talented than those peole who can influence right from education of their childern till their placement ,is there an iota of doubt?

    Now what these people should do wait till the government provide infrastrucure and universities in rural areas etc
    Again what about those management which will put these affluent sections again managing oppertunities there.

    So basic point is unequalities among people have reserverd oppertunities for certain groups and reservation is a mean to dreserve these already reserved oppertunities.

    SO IT SHOULD BE CALLED DERESERVATION RATHER THAN RESERVATION.

    Now we come to mode of reservation there can be better ways more just than present and RK Hegde formula is best but shall we wait till best formula is proposed.

    Shall we spurn oppertunities for our future younger generations till the perfect pacakge offered.
    Shall we allow our young people to suffer till govt.improves infrastructure ,is this what you suggest?

    If you can clear picture bit more regarding this ...


    Cheers
    Narender Kharb
    Last edited by narenderkharb; September 15th, 2006 at 09:30 PM.

  18. #38
    Seniors members ideas are solicited so as to provide clear guidance to community in making a decison after taking all factors in to considerations.These guidlines should be clear in objective and not ambiguous with... yes but....if then ...etc.etc.

  19. #39

    Post It Was Not An Upper Caste.....

    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    jin ko aap pradhan mantri bana rahe hain vo aap ko dismiss kar rahe hain, good example, ki phir bhi aap nahin samajh rahe hain ki aap ke prati forward caste ka kya attitude hai?
    Dear Dr Tewatiaji,

    Let me clarify that I gave the example to stress that in the recent history our leaders like Ch Devilal has been opposed to the idea of reservation on caste basis.

    As far as dismissing him,as far as my understanding and memory goes it was not an upper caste dismissing a Jat VPM, it was a shaken and insecure PM after Mahem event and the increasing closeness between Devilal and Chandrasekhar.

    Ch Devilal had declared a Sarvajatiya Rally in Delhi on 09 Jun ( If I'm not wrong) in which all leaders not happy with VP were supposed to gather for a unity show. Till that time Ch Devilal was known to be a leader of 36 Jati. It was to cut him off from the so called lower castes that VP played this Mandal card on 08 Jun. Next morning or same evening Ch Devilal was dismissed. Rest is the Black History of Mandal.

    My point is that it was purely a political decision rather than an Upper Caste vs Lower Caste (IN ANY CASE I REFUSE TO ACCEPT JATS AS A LOWER CASTE !!).

    I appreciate your dedication for the cause of community but no point playing with historical facts.
    RamRam,
    Capt Pawan Kalkal
    "Quartered in snow, silent to remain. When the bugle calls, they shall rise and march again"

  20. #40
    From what I have learned, when "khairat" is being distributed go get in line and get it. Instead of try changing the system, become part of the system to avail it (sure smart people become part of the system and beat it too). If there is no vote going on to change the system the arguments of "for or against" are irrelevant. I believe the point of discussion is do you want to get on the train or just want to be a bystander watching the train pass by? Sure, one can take either side for that based on his(er) possesive preoccupations.

    On a side note, what is the "caste" of this "creamy layer" article author? Has one really put thought about his motivations behind this article and what exactly he is trying to target? I am pretty sure he knows what is good for his kids.

    Historically, Jats never learned to be part of the system, and that is obvious, right? If one "thinks" otherwise thats ok too, but before one thinks so, just look around and observe, thats all. Ok, things are chaning "a bit", if thats the point one wants to make.

    The "forward" and "backward" discussion is irrelevant and waste of energy. This forward, backward reminds me a simple saying my father used to tell me when I was a little kid -

    "Agam budhi Bania, Pacham budhi Jat". From my personal life experiences, I have found lots of truth in it.

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