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Thread: Jats as the most backward community

  1. #41

    Post Kind Attention Moderators !!

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjeevm View Post
    From what I have learned, when "khairat" is being distributed go get in line and get it. Instead of try changing the system, become part of the system to avail it (sure smart people become part of the system and beat it too). If there is no vote going on to change the system the arguments of "for or against" are irrelevant. I believe the point of discussion is do you want to get on the train or just want to be a bystander watching the train pass by? Sure, one can take either side for that based on his(er) possesive preoccupations.

    On a side note, what is the "caste" of this "creamy layer" article author? Has one really put thought about his motivations behind this article and what exactly he is trying to target? I am pretty sure he knows what is good for his kids.

    Historically, Jats never learned to be part of the system, and that is obvious, right? If one "thinks" otherwise thats ok too, but before one thinks so, just look around and observe, thats all. Ok, things are chaning "a bit", if thats the point one wants to make.

    The "forward" and "backward" discussion is irrelevant and waste of energy. This forward, backward reminds me a simple saying my father used to tell me when I was a little kid -

    "Agam budhi Bania, Pacham budhi Jat". From my personal life experiences, I have found lots of truth in it.
    Friend Sanjiv,

    I think I used the term 'creamy layer', I'm a JAT and I don't require anybody's certificate on this. Particularly yours !!

    As far as your queries regarding 'motivations behind this article' and 'whom am I trying to target' , to be very frank I don't even feel like answering this one.In case you can explain feel free to do so.

    Friend 'PLEASE GROW UP', Jatland is a site on which we are free to express our views, in case you don't agree than please post comments on the site. Where is the need to get down to personal comments like this one quoted above ?? Bhai chaar bhai baith kai batlawange to kuch farak bi aane laajmi hain,in any case it is a very sensitive issue.

    Kindly go through the posts on various issues and than judge the standard of your language and remarks.

    I shall also request moderaters to look into this kind of personal remarks on a General Discussion.
    RamRam,
    Capt Pawan Kalkal
    "Quartered in snow, silent to remain. When the bugle calls, they shall rise and march again"

  2. #42
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by captkalkal View Post
    Dear Dr Tewatiaji,

    Let me clarify that I gave the example to stress that in the recent history our leaders like Ch Devilal has been opposed to the idea of reservation on caste basis.

    As far as dismissing him,as far as my understanding and memory goes it was not an upper caste dismissing a Jat VPM, it was a shaken and insecure PM after Mahem event and the increasing closeness between Devilal and Chandrasekhar.

    Ch Devilal had declared a Sarvajatiya Rally in Delhi on 09 Jun ( If I'm not wrong) in which all leaders not happy with VP were supposed to gather for a unity show. Till that time Ch Devilal was known to be a leader of 36 Jati. It was to cut him off from the so called lower castes that VP played this Mandal card on 08 Jun. Next morning or same evening Ch Devilal was dismissed. Rest is the Black History of Mandal.

    My point is that it was purely a political decision rather than an Upper Caste vs Lower Caste (IN ANY CASE I REFUSE TO ACCEPT JATS AS A LOWER CASTE !!).

    I appreciate your dedication for the cause of community but no point playing with historical facts.
    I totally agree with you Pawan,

    VP Singh played that Mandal card and tried to bring down the popularity of Ch. Devi Lal at that time and rest is history.

    I don't accept that jats belongs to a lower caste and needs any reservation. We have the talent and the strength that we can get what we deserve.
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  3. #43
    I think most of us are from village background and we know what is the income of farmers via agriculture.

    Times has changed a lot .I remember even in earlier days a farmer father has to take some sort of loan either by mortaging or from a red entery in in some moneylander bahi to get his child a city education.And these days the easy money via corruption and black money of politicians has just changed the market .Now you can get a medical or engineering side if you have lacs of rupees in your pocket.Or you have to manage system by giving bribe .Or you have to put your child in some costly coaching institue that reqire lot of money and give him coaching through out year or you have to just watch your child running one or other political leader to get some busconductor post.

    Now can you tell me what is the fault of a farmer's son who could not spare this much money as he has no access to corrupt money of bribes of beurocrate and certaily can't outperform a son of some corrupt official.

    Can we say he is in any way less competent than other guy.

    Certainy not.

    Dear members the issue of reservation involves two facets

    First in term of jat cast

    Second within cast.

    Now the option is only for option one. jats vs other casts..

    Now don't you agree that 70 % of jats still live in villages.AND 90% of other cast other than who already reserved, live in cities.

    Taking this well known status of agriculture income on which 70% of jats are dependant can we think any thing else except trying hard reservation to safegaurd the future of our young generation ,

    Or we should expect our childern to prepare for IAS in between certain session of lamani and than compete with sahari khatri arora bania and bahman.

    I expect our elder brothers to understand this grave ground reality.

    Our second struggle should be its proper implementation with in a cast on economic base or Rk hegdae type formula.

    But first should be, not left watching the eminent dark secenario for our future generation.

    And well let me remind you ,no one want to give it you ,you have to fight a hard battle for it.

    I respect my Rajasthani JAT brothers who fought for it and got what was their right.

  4. #44
    No cast is lower or higher it is just the matter of opportunities available to its members at the given period of time that decide its social standing at a perticular time period.

    Gujjar were most dominant tribe in fourth to tenth century but are relegated to lower status now.

    You know Bishonoi cast position before and after the bhajan lal period.

    Jats are most dominant in punjab and almost insignificant in afghanistan.

    It is just only the right decisions at the right time that make a group higher or lower in a social hiearchy.

    What we need a right decision rather than high pride that can be of no use.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    And well let me remind you ,no one want to give it you ,you have to fight a hard battle for it.
    You are right Narendar. If we want to do something good for the coming generations of Jats, we must fight for the reservation. Reservation is a reality and we have to accept it now. burning a few buses and doing some damage to the public property is not going to change anything. Reservation is always going to be there. So, instead of wasting our energy in fighting against it, we must fight for it.

    I fully surpport the reservation for the Jats for at least next 25-30 years.

  6. #46
    Hi Arun

    Really suprised me

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Hi Arun

    Really suprised me

    Me too, Narender Bhai
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  8. #48
    Hi Vijay

    You and Arun are shinning example how one can change the tide against all odds but things now are much different than it used to be earlier.

  9. #49
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    Thanks for the nice words narender bhai,

    You are right things are now changed. I was just about to respond what you said about Rajasthani jats, but after reading Arun's post i am in dilemma that in what context you said that i.e. reservation or fight against Rajput supramcy.

    I am totally against the reservation but we have a great history how our forfathers fought for their next generation's future.

    As basically i belongs to Rajasthan and i know the reality 40-50 years ago in Rajasthan. If you had seen the movie 'Ghulami' that was the real picture in Rajput dominated areas in Rajasthan.

    My grandfather were a freedom fighter and after independence he faught against Rajput supermacy especially against Maharaja Ganga Singh of Bikaner. The incidents are still in the books of Bikaner state library having my grandfather's name in the books and the famous 'Kangad kand' too in Bikaner riyaasat.
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  10. #50
    I said that in context of fight for reservation that our rajasthani brothers fought and won.

    Things are different today ,I mentioned as it was earlier possible for a person from a rural background like me or arun as education was not so costly and competition was not so intence.But these days it is almost next to impossible for a person to live in rural enviornment and aim for some competitive slot .

  11. #51
    Dear Captain Pawan Kalkal (sorry, usually I don't like to post personally addressed posts, but this time I am obligated to),

    Calm down. Calm Down. Don't jump to the "guns" yet, please. It just happenned that your post was before mine. I wasn't even replying to anyone's post. I am not even aware that you used the term "creamy layer". Did you write the arcticle about the "creamy layer" in one of the papers (I forget which one was it, HT, or IE?) posted sometime ago in here, that's what I was referring to, ok. I can hazard a guess that you "probably" missed my point.

    There was no mention of you or anyone else, so, not sure where the question of personal attack comes from? There was no mention of stop excercising your "freedom of expression right" either. We both have done that, right?

    No collisions, please. Sorry, you don't like my "language standard", but you can always exercise your "freedom to ignore right" right?

    Believe me, I am not in the bussiness of supplying "Jat Certificates", it is the God who gives that.

    Reservation or No Reservation, God bless Jats!!!

  12. #52
    What seniors say jats should do in present conditions.

    Fight hard for jats reservation in order to secure the future of younger generation.....

    Or protest hard by going for antireservation movement....

    Or sit passively and watch ongoing process...

    Honest and sincere comments expected ,brief if possible, also if Col saheb can clarify in view of these posts.

  13. #53
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    given the straight choice during churaman revolt that whether Jats should go for kingship or not? there were many jats that jats should never go for kingship after all we are democratic/republican/panchayti/ ... n what not not people.

    they were right also. But in odd circumstances, Jats really had to go for it. n today whatever history of jats for the namesake you (means I also) people have is due to that decision only. today whatever, punjab, haryana, UP boasts of about idealism but in my opinion they all reaping the fruites of that decision only.

    there were grand panchayats of Jats who elected Rajya vardhana, the king of Thanesar who ultimately culminated into harshavardhana. similarly Gopala was also elected king. The Jats never supported kingship like Rajputs n till today we dnt do. but in odd circumstances we have really no choice particularly when it amounts to "Yes" or "No".

    the question again remains here that whether we should struggle for reservation or not. Its a diffrerent question that evem if we struggle, we may or may not succeed. there is no personal benefit of any member here.

  14. #54
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    Though I'm not from army background (though any jat has many of his brothers etc. in army, I also have 2 out of three) but in NCC I learnt that first defend yourself then attack. Similar is my opinion that first acquire power then implement your ideaology.

    similar is question here.

    If we Jats donot try for it and keep crying for idealism how will you implement it. Powerless idealist people were always called lootere only. n till today we (means YOU also) jats are lootere only, in broad day lite in open history texts. because you (means I also) have no power.

    please tell me what power will you have when all other village n jat like tribes are becoming thanedar upon you in your own village and nearby areas right from SC, ST (though they are not there in Jat area), gujar, yadav, nai, kumhar, teli etc. ?????

    that you will still cry that "no, the reservation should be on economic basis"

    and he will say "ki is pagal jat ko do dande mar ke ander bund kar do"

    why, jats in rajasthan (or otherwise all over india) are harassed and degraded?

    whether they were dacoits????????

    Please try to gather data of famous dacoits, like Sunder singh, man singh, chhabi ram, gadaria gang, phoolan, mohr, madho,..sunil tyagi etc........

    can you name any sinle jat amongst them?

    even then you are dacoits, inspite of winning so many vir chakras, param vir chakras in army??????/

    why??????

    because of your over idealism??
    Last edited by sktewatia; September 17th, 2006 at 01:31 AM.

  15. #55
    WELL GUYS TO CERTIAN EXTENT TEWATIA JI IS DAMN RITE, LETS EVALUATE THINGS.

    RESERVATION - thats one thing thats eating our country, u me n many others are fortunate enough to be placed gud, but if u r jats think about the masses, think about those jinko naukri ki jarrorat hai chulhe ke liye, arey bhai ye ideolism chodo aur thoda kaum ke baare mei socho, not everyone is so competetive as few of us are, lets face it. the percentage is disturbing. lets fight for our community and not for individuals.

    OBC - i hate to be called as an OBC myself, as am not a backward by any sense, but at the same time think about our brother 's n sister's who need a job or an opportunity for upliftment, think about it HARD. we are a community and not individuals, so plz vouch for things that derive benifit to our community. unreasonable thoughts should be discouraged and thats wot i am doing.

    Ideolism - its better explained in books than in real life, my choice be selfish, be commited to ur own self and for your community. its about time jats decide to favour their community and their own people as in any other race / relegion.

    WORDS - talkin n mentioning great words will help u in general, but plz here remb. u all r jats, let's talk about jats n how we all can benefit each other or else support each other, maybe its the reservation issue.

    Terrain / our place - tewatia sahab was no where wrong when he said "hamari zameen par hamara kha ke hume hi lootere batate hai" arrey zara front pe jaa kar to dekho goli ka music kya hot hai. (proof glorious jat regiment). shabdonn (words) ke saath to koi bhi khel sakta hai bhayion.

    bahut kuch bolna or likhna chahata hun yahan par, par sochta hun ki aap log offend ho jaaye, isliye abhi ke liye ram ram.

    jaat tha, jat su aur jat rahoonga jisne jo paadna ho paad le (this is for all ppl except jats)

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    I said that in context of fight for reservation that our rajasthani brothers fought and won.

    Well, i don't see any proudness in that reservation as that was a political descision as there are Jats in such a dominent role in politics and Jat polpulation there is more than any other state in India. And that voter strength affects politics.

    Its was just a political descision nothing else but how Jats fought against Rajput supemacy is the history in Rajasthan.

    In short, that was Jat might which forced government to make that descision, otherwise just name any Jat leader who fought for reservation of Jats in Rajasthan.

    I am waiting for answer.
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by vijay View Post
    Well, i don't see any proudness in that reservation as that was a political descision as there are Jats in such a dominent role in politics and Jat polpulation there is more than any other state in India. And that voter strength affects politics.

    Its was just a political descision nothing else but how Jats fought against Rajput supemacy is the history in Rajasthan.

    In short, that was Jat might which forced government to make that descision, otherwise just name any Jat leader who fought for reservation of Jats in Rajasthan.

    I am waiting for answer.

    Bro remb. AJGR - commanly called azgar's, as the name is dangerous it consists of


    Ahir
    Jat
    Gujjar
    Rajput

    i dont have much of history knowlidge on my side but ahirs went on to raise zanawars(bhains or wotever), jats choose farming, gujjars were divded over farming and mlkin and rajputs was the main defence form cuppled wid jats. all in al we were, are n will remain great in this nations history, but the sad part is non jats, mojorly punjabis term us as hooligans, they would never reckon us to their own freedom, n yet they are a verry well knitted community, so its about time we change our own physichie.


    well nothing here to say, we all were TRUE ARYANS but ur comment on rajput community is not very well appreciated.

    come up wid sumthing called islamor punjabi or for that matter any other race, rajputs are closest to US jats n they till today relate ourselves to them.


    its just my openion plz do not confront n dont mind, lets stop cussing n discussing others n rather we should concentrate on things wot we can do for our beloved jat bhais n behen's, thats the only point i want to make.
    Last edited by trueblueindian; September 17th, 2006 at 04:12 AM. Reason: better thought

  18. #58
    If one pays attention to "who" is advocating economoic based reservation, it is easy to get a clue about their motivations. Just think about it. If anyone on this site advocated(ing) it, I am not referring to them, hence, please don't get red faced. Economic based reservation would only work in a homogeneous society. Econmic based assistance makes sense, not reservation.

    As to what Jats should do? Jats should do what would benefit Jats the most, from what they stand to gain the most. That's the bottom line, that's what matters. Jats were out of reservation for so long did that really help them? And don't get burdened by shallow thinking. Addition of Jats to no reservation fight wouldn't make much difference, so, let others do that.

    Also, Jats should use their political leadership to achieve their goal to get in. Although, that might be hard because once the Jat political leaders get there, most suffer from "darbari" syndrome.

    And Jats on the road, ok, that's an ugly seen.

    One thing I never understood, why Jats are not accepting or afraid of SC/ST police or administarive officers? Why Sharma, Chopra, Dutta, Aggarwal, Sinha...are acceptable?



  19. #59
    lets face the ground relities Mr. Mehlawat things are changing and so is the competence level (thats why i support reservation), cant repeat but idealism is appreciated to an extent, after that wot remains is ground reality, we are trying to to do something for the whole JAT community, plz be concerned about your own contributions towards ur race(lets see how are u contributing). if u have done enough HATS OFF if u havent join me/us at janjagriti as even i havent done anything for my dear jats but all am doin is tryin to bring a change, for all - either support the change OR lay off, just think about our own ppl. n be reasonable.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by trueblueindian View Post
    well nothing here to say, we all were TRUE ARYANS but ur comment on rajput community is not very well appreciated.


    come up wid sumthing called islamor punjabi or for that matter any other race, rajputs are closest to US jats n they till today relate ourselves to them.


    its just my openion plz do not confront n dont mind, lets stop cussing n discussing others n rather we should concentrate on things wot we can do for our beloved jat bhais n behen's, thats the only point i want to make.
    Dabas Bhai,

    i just tried point out how our Rajasthani Jat fellows gain their respect and status.

    What you think about that in older times in Rajasthan a jat groom coudn't ride a horse in front of a Rajput's house ? Why a jat couldn't sit on chair in front of a Rajput ? What was the closeness and where ?

    But now Jats showed them our might and Rajput agree that we are close communities. What is that ? Surrender or companionship ???

    History repeats itself brother ! So just try to recognize our strength and stick to that.
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

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