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Thread: Jats as the most backward community

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by vijay View Post
    Well Tewatia Sir,

    I am not against jat community but i am fond of the talent. A person having more than 70% marks is rejected and a person having 35% marks is selected. Can they do justice for that job ?

    People thinks that we jats are not gud in academic scenario so u want to send the message that what we are and what talent we have is just due to reservation only otherwise we can't survive.

    I know how Meena's in Rajasthan rise and what is there working style ?
    So just for showing this and that to other people, you are doing injustice to your next generation?

    Tell me what not you have shown to them, and you are still called lootere by them!!!

    And inspite of all of your power and valour and so called strength/history you are still unable to delete this phrase from history.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    You are perhaps not acquainted with the latest current affairs. Bikaner(Rajasthan) kissans are threatening to jump from water tank, and DCP Meena over there is buying nets, lest Jats actually do it!

    They are not demanding there Basanti but their right. Please read todays HT.

    I feel that Haryana/Punjab/abroad Jats are still shrouded in mystery!!!! like you!! and Dharmender!!!

    They really do not know the helm of affairs, whats happenning with Jat kissans over there!

    living in beautiful compatments, n issuing great statements on morality from there is very easy.

    Have you ever thought of suicides that kissans are doing in other states???

    I challenge all these idealist people that whether they have a courage to issue any statement that Charan Singh was not idealist?????

    then why Charan Singh went for this Mandal Commission?????

    First of all let me tell inform you that Jats have good strength in Bikaner District.

    I don't want to comment on your you funny thing that jats want to jump into water tank and a Meena DCP is buying net.

    Newspapers always create a hype to increase their sales.

    It's a news for me that Charan Singh favoured Mandal Commision even after knowing that the Mandal Commision report didn't include jat's in reservation.
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  3. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by vijay View Post
    It's a news for me that Charan Singh favoured Mandal Commision even after knowing that the Mandal Commision report didn't include jat's in reservation.
    Hi Vijay

    It is a fact that Mandal commision was the brain child of charan singh but there was confusion about inclusion or excusion of jats report was pending and it was just utilized by VP Singh on the advice of sarad yadav.

    Tewatia ji

    Don't call antireservation ideas as some sort of Idealism where non exist.

    Cornering of 80% seats by 20% of people because of unfair opportunities is unjust and exploitation and people who advocate status quo should not be called so.

    If we go strictly by the definition of idealism that stands for justice.

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by sktewatia View Post
    So just for showing this and that to other people, you are doing injustice to your next generation?

    Tell me what not you have shown to them, and you are still called lootere by them!!!

    And inspite of all of your power and valour and so called strength/history you are still unable to delete this phrase from history.
    So what you think ? If we get reservation thay are not going to call us lootere ?

    Is this is the remedy for all the problems ?
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  5. #145
    I belongs to rural background and I remember how my feeling was in my college days in respect of those who got admission because of reservation and not deservation.

    if you all talk about villages lacking facilities yes i agree in villages situation is not good regarding light & electricity. But i would like to add one more thing that the facilities are not good even for wine/whisky shops still the people are getting this scrace thing which is an evil.

    it's all a matter of will nothing else.

    I feel from this thread that we don't deserve that's why we are demanding reservation.
    -Virender M.

  6. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by mann123 View Post
    I belongs to rural background and I remember how my feeling was in my college days in respect of those who got admission because of reservation and not deservation.

    if you all talk about villages lacking facilities yes i agree in villages situation is not good regarding light & electricity. But i would like to add one more thing that the facilities are not good even for wine/whisky shops still the people are getting this scrace thing which is an evil.

    it's all a matter of will nothing else.

    I feel from this thread that we don't deserve that's why we are demanding reservation.

    So what's the point ?
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by vijay View Post
    So what you think ? If we get reservation thay are not going to call us lootere ?

    Is this is the remedy for all the problems ?

    Vijay,

    Narendar and many other people have made some good points why Jat should be included in the OBC.

    1. Do you agree most of the Jats live in rural area?
    2. Do you agree most the Jats are farmer(owns a small piece of land, they are not zamidars)?
    3. Do you agree condition of farmers is not very good in India (you can think of economic condition also)?
    4. Do you agree that most of our people do not have access to good school and other facilities?
    5. Do you agree we get 4 hours or less electricity in many villages?

    My friend you are from a rich family and perhaps do not understand the kind of problem normal rural people face. Think about a student who has to write an exam next day and there is no arrangement for the light. ek toh garmi, ooper se machchar, and lalten/candle me padhai karke fir subaha 15-16 km door town me jake exam dena. bechara student kya krega??

    If you do not get admission to a good school, you will never get a chance to show your talent. Lekin admission kaise milega????

    Do you seriously think that one day reservation is going to go away? It has already been implemented.

    Toh bhai ,waqt kii jarorat ko samjho. Aur waqt kii jaroorat filhal ye hai ke jaton ko reservation milna chahiye.

    Aur ye jo hard work and quality type kii cheejen hain na, ye sab kaam dhandha milne ke bad jaroori hai. Agar kaam hee nahi hai toh kya hard work and kya quality?agar achche school me admission hee nahi hai toh hard work kya karega?

  8. #148

    Look at the Future

    I think for our short term gains and to some extent, a little narrow approach we are missing the big issues.

    Mr. Vijay has made a very good point about a persone scoring 70% not getting the admission and one half of that % getting it just because of the fact that his community falls under reservation category. I would go little deeper into the problem,

    Tomorrow your loved one is struggling to survive in a hospital, and you have a doctor who came to medical college not on his talent but on the basis or reservation, treating your only child, or your wife/husband or any loved one. How confident you would feel at that time and God forbid if that loved one does not survive, probably the supporters of reservations would never forgive themselves. Imagine an incompetent Engineer designing the Bridge, over which a whole lot of traffice needs to pass over daily, and bridge collapses, don't blame your self then because you supported the reservation but the government as we always do.
    We have landed up in this situation, because we thought of today and not for the future.
    I know many people will say, that they are trying to secure the future of the young members of the community, so that they can get the jobs and admissions in best institutions, not on competence but on reservation. The concept itself is wrong. If you give a fish to a person, you feed him once, if you teach him how to catch a fish, you feed him for life time. Here we are proposing to our younger generation, not to work hard, assuring them that reservation will see them through.
    The best thing for any one, is not to do that thing to others what he/she did not like when others did to him/her. Mr. Mann did not like people getting the reservation as a student, but now want to do the same thing as per his post. This is giving in to the wrong things.
    Please God's sake think of the larger issues. Our ancestors fought for the freedom of our country. Many of them gave their life for the cause. They all wanted to make it a great nation. What have we done to this nation. We have divided it on the basis of caste, religion and regionalism. Reservation is the cancer for any society. Let us not embrace it just for short term goals. Teach your children to take up the challange. Let us all unite against reservation of any kind. Let us all unite to create facilities in rural areas. Let us build the bridges among the communities. It might not come over night, but if we strive, it is only a matter of time that we would definitely succeed.
    The most important thing is to get every one two square meals. Let me tell you, once one gets two full meals, Happiness is only the state of mind.
    I hope you understand my objection/reservation on supporting the policy of reservation.
    Col (Retd) Virendra Tavathia


    "A person should not be judged by the nature of his/her job, but the manner in which he/she does that".

  9. #149

    Thumbs up Simple and straight

    Quote Originally Posted by arunshamli View Post
    Vijay,

    Narendar and many other people have made some good points why Jat should be included in the OBC.

    1. Do you agree most of the Jats live in rural area?
    2. Do you agree most the Jats are farmer(owns a small piece of land, they are not zamidars)?
    3. Do you agree condition of farmers is not very good in India (you can think of economic condition also)?
    4. Do you agree that most of our people do not have access to good school and other facilities?
    5. Do you agree we get 4 hours or less electricity in many villages?

    My friend you are from a rich family and perhaps do not understand the kind of problem normal rural people face. Think about a student who has to write an exam next day and there is no arrangement for the light. ek toh garmi, ooper se machchar, and lalten/candle me padhai karke fir subaha 15-16 km door town me jake exam dena. bechara student kya krega??

    If you do not get admission to a good school, you will never get a chance to show your talent. Lekin admission kaise milega????

    Do you seriously think that one day reservation is going to go away? It has already been implemented.

    Toh bhai ,waqt kii jarorat ko samjho. Aur waqt kii jaroorat filhal ye hai ke jaton ko reservation milna chahiye.

    Aur ye jo hard work and quality type kii cheejen hain na, ye sab kaam dhandha milne ke bad jaroori hai. Agar kaam hee nahi hai toh kya hard work and kya quality?agar achche school me admission hee nahi hai toh hard work kya karega?
    Couldn't have explained better.

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by raj2rif View Post
    I think for our short term gains and to some extent, a little narrow approach we are missing the big issues.

    Mr. Vijay has made a very good point about a persone scoring 70% not getting the admission and one half of that % getting it just because of the fact that his community falls under reservation category. I would go little deeper into the problem,

    Tomorrow your loved one is struggling to survive in a hospital, and you have a doctor who came to medical college not on his talent but on the basis or reservation, treating your only child, or your wife/husband or any loved one. How confident you would feel at that time and God forbid if that loved one does not survive, probably the supporters of reservations would never forgive themselves. Imagine an incompetent Engineer designing the Bridge, over which a whole lot of traffice needs to pass over daily, and bridge collapses, don't blame your self then because you supported the reservation but the government as we always do.
    We have landed up in this situation, because we thought of today and not for the future.
    I know many people will say, that they are trying to secure the future of the young members of the community, so that they can get the jobs and admissions in best institutions, not on competence but on reservation. The concept itself is wrong. If you give a fish to a person, you feed him once, if you teach him how to catch a fish, you feed him for life time. Here we are proposing to our younger generation, not to work hard, assuring them that reservation will see them through.
    The best thing for any one, is not to do that thing to others what he/she did not like when others did to him/her. Mr. Mann did not like people getting the reservation as a student, but now want to do the same thing as per his post. This is giving in to the wrong things.
    Please God's sake think of the larger issues. Our ancestors fought for the freedom of our country. Many of them gave their life for the cause. They all wanted to make it a great nation. What have we done to this nation. We have divided it on the basis of caste, religion and regionalism. Reservation is the cancer for any society. Let us not embrace it just for short term goals. Teach your children to take up the challange. Let us all unite against reservation of any kind. Let us all unite to create facilities in rural areas. Let us build the bridges among the communities. It might not come over night, but if we strive, it is only a matter of time that we would definitely succeed.
    The most important thing is to get every one two square meals. Let me tell you, once one gets two full meals, Happiness is only the state of mind.
    I hope you understand my objection/reservation on supporting the policy of reservation.
    Dear Col Tewatia


    Far from any clear or broad approach your stand is really confused and reasons are just repetitive with out any substance.

    For example again and again you talk of talent.............

    I explained it in detail how talent is not the criterion in present system and perticularly I gave the scientific explanation in case of vijay post of 70 and 30% case , that if two persons are not having same level field their marks are not the indication of their competence and till they are provided that field they should be given some protection against unequal weigtage to pampered sections.

    Do you have any reason ...any argument negating this most fundamental fault in your basic argument about talent or competency.

    If you don't have please don't go for repeatition just for the sake of saying it.

    And where we are thinking of long term scenario I don't know which scenario you have in your mind.

    It is ok you and your children are well settled and don't need it but have you thought of those young people for whom life has not started yet.Shall they just get meals of two times and be in a happy state of mind as you explained.

    Being a senior member I need not tell you that foundation of a nation is strong only when its nationals get equal chance in opportunities and if more previleged sections are able to carry off opportunities and others are not given their just share than it will not be a good omen for our beloved nation

    I hope you will understand and be rational.

  11. #151

    talent and reservation

    It’s a myth that reserved category candidates are less talented. Talent is in individual thing and one can not say the same thing about the whole group. Saying all reserved are dumb and all non reseved are the best of the society, is nothing but a dishonest statement.

    When I was doing my masters, the class senior was a reserved candidate from Bihar. I have not seen such a brilliant person till date. others(reserved/nonreserved both) used to copy from him in the tutorial. And there were many south Indians who were also from reserved category and some of them were among the top 10. top 10 was a mix of reserved and non reserved.

    Scoring higher percentage marks is just one parameter to measure the talent. But this is not the only one. And I must say it is not even the most important.

    I think everyone here agrees that people in rural area are by no mean less talented than those living in cities, they just don’t have access to the good facilities.
    Let me put a simple question and those who object to the reservation please try to give a simple answer if possible: If talented rural candidate gets some reservation, they will loose their talent. Is that what you all are saying?

    my request to you all, please go and see in the villages, this talent is being converted in to criminals. The reason is: lack of opportunity. When not given any chance our youth are becoming direction less and converting into chota mota chor lutera. I am sure many of us are aware of this.

    I would prefer being called from a reserved category rather than a criminal. Now they are calling our ancestor were criminals, but soon it will be true. I do not know our ancestor were chor-lutere or not , but for coming generations it will definitely be true. And they can not even say this is FALSE. Because it is not.

    Reservation in my view is not a short term solution; it is a long term solution. It has already helped many people and it will help us also. but only if we get the status OBC.
    Last edited by arunshamli; September 29th, 2006 at 04:08 PM.

  12. #152

    Correct

    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Dear Col Tewatia


    Far from any clear or broad approach your stand is really confused and reasons are just repetitive with out any substance.

    For example again and again you talk of talent.............

    I explained it in detail how talent is not the criterion in present system and perticularly I gave the scientific explanation in case of vijay post of 70 and 30% case , that if two persons are not having same level field their marks are not the indication of their competence and till they are provided that field they should be given some protection against unequal weigtage to pampered sections.
    [quote=narenderkharb;116985]
    Dear Mr. Kharab,

    Firstly, I don't believe in personal admonishment of the members telling them what to do and what not to do. Whether to post here or not to post here.

    Seondly: Pampered sections. Who are these pempered sections. Are they all on caste basis? Are all Brahmins are rich? Are all SC/ST people poor? Do all Brahmins live in metros and no SC/ST lives in metros? These are the issues which are self negating for your argument. If you read my earlier posts, I had said that if at all there should be any reservation that should be based on economic strength of the family. Actually, I am even against it. I want these families to be given economic aid rather than the reservation and that should meet the requirement.
    If % of marks scored in an exam is not the true measure of the talent, then probably that is the issue that needs to be discussed. It means system is faulty. I see no fundamental fault in my argument, it is only the understanding or perception of the reader as to how he/she views it, and that is perfectly fine with me for every individual is different.

    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post

    Do you have any reason ...any argument negating this most fundamental fault in your basic argument about talent or competency.

    If you don't have please don't go for repeatition just for the sake of saying it.

    And where we are thinking of long term scenario I don't know which scenario you have in your mind.

    It is ok you and your children are well settled and don't need it but have you thought of those young people for whom life has not started yet.Shall they just get meals of two times and be in a happy state of mind as you explained.
    Now me personally. I was not borne with silver spoon in mouth. Me and my mother had worked very hard to get where we are today. If you feel I am just pulling the faster one, you can go to my schools that I studied or to my village, where people still talk about the hard work that we had put in to get where we are today. When I appeared for IMA, people did tell me that I was wasting my time, as there would be no selection because I did not have any approach or my family had any military back ground. That turned out to be story of people who could not make it for whatever reason. We are all human beings, and I personally do feel, that having a mentor does help. But there are people in the world who have succeeded purely due to hard work, be it Eklavya or Dhiru Bhai Ambani. There may be millions of unsung heroes too.

    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post

    Being a senior member I need not tell you that foundation of a nation is strong only when its nationals get equal chance in opportunities and if more previleged sections are able to carry off opportunities and others are not given their just share than it will not be a good omen for our beloved nation

    I hope you will understand and be rational.
    Here it looks to me confusion. On one side you want to provide equal opportunities to the youth, and at the same time you want reservation based on Caste. Don't you think it is contradictory to the basic argument of yours. Are previleges based on the Caste? As I have mentioned above, we do have rich and poor people in all castes and thus caste should not be the basis or reservation. Let me assure you, the moment people get into reservation, there is a likelyhood, of more people stop working hard, because they might feel that little work may get them to the objective.
    Human being by nature want to follow the path of least resistance and that is why more and more people want to do the things which takes less to get success. Some time that is also called working SMART.
    Col (Retd) Virendra Tavathia


    "A person should not be judged by the nature of his/her job, but the manner in which he/she does that".

  13. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by raj2rif View Post
    I think for our short term gains and to some extent, a little narrow approach we are missing the big issues.

    Mr. Vijay has made a very good point about a persone scoring 70% not getting the admission and one half of that % getting it just because of the fact that his community falls under reservation category. I would go little deeper into the problem,

    Tomorrow your loved one is struggling to survive in a hospital, and you have a doctor who came to medical college not on his talent but on the basis or reservation, treating your only child, or your wife/husband or any loved one. How confident you would feel at that time and God forbid if that loved one does not survive, probably the supporters of reservations would never forgive themselves. Imagine an incompetent Engineer designing the Bridge, over which a whole lot of traffice needs to pass over daily, and bridge collapses, don't blame your self then because you supported the reservation but the government as we always do.
    We have landed up in this situation, because we thought of today and not for the future.
    I know many people will say, that they are trying to secure the future of the young members of the community, so that they can get the jobs and admissions in best institutions, not on competence but on reservation. The concept itself is wrong. If you give a fish to a person, you feed him once, if you teach him how to catch a fish, you feed him for life time. Here we are proposing to our younger generation, not to work hard, assuring them that reservation will see them through.
    The best thing for any one, is not to do that thing to others what he/she did not like when others did to him/her. Mr. Mann did not like people getting the reservation as a student, but now want to do the same thing as per his post. This is giving in to the wrong things.
    Please God's sake think of the larger issues. Our ancestors fought for the freedom of our country. Many of them gave their life for the cause. They all wanted to make it a great nation. What have we done to this nation. We have divided it on the basis of caste, religion and regionalism. Reservation is the cancer for any society. Let us not embrace it just for short term goals. Teach your children to take up the challange. Let us all unite against reservation of any kind. Let us all unite to create facilities in rural areas. Let us build the bridges among the communities. It might not come over night, but if we strive, it is only a matter of time that we would definitely succeed.
    The most important thing is to get every one two square meals. Let me tell you, once one gets two full meals, Happiness is only the state of mind.
    I hope you understand my objection/reservation on supporting the policy of reservation.
    But then Sir

    Will you oppose the reservation of SC/ST also?

    YES or NO?

  14. #154

    yes

    Quote Originally Posted by nkkhoth View Post
    But then Sir

    Will you oppose the reservation of SC/ST also?

    YES or NO?
    Absolutely YES.
    Just to let you know, when the issue was raised here, during Mr. Hooda's visit, I did say the same thing. I am oppose to any reservation on the caste basis.

    We must treat all human beings as Indians and not on caste basis. We can give economic help to the poor people for studies and providing the basic needs of the life, but definitely not the reservation in schools and jobs or for that matter any where else including the Panchayat, Parliament or any organization purely on the basis of Caste.
    Col (Retd) Virendra Tavathia


    "A person should not be judged by the nature of his/her job, but the manner in which he/she does that".

  15. #155
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    I feel no remaining logic is left there now.
    Last edited by nkkhoth; September 30th, 2006 at 06:28 PM.

  16. #156
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    I was interested to know when was this issue raised with CM ?

    And who raised the issue of reservation for jats ?

    If you can give some info
    Last edited by nkkhoth; September 30th, 2006 at 06:33 PM.

  17. #157
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    I sincerily hope you gave these views as your own indidual views.
    Last edited by nkkhoth; September 30th, 2006 at 06:38 PM.

  18. #158
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    Col saheb A very important question is asked from you again and again which you are not replying.
    Do you suggest that younger people should continue to suffer till a perfect economic formula is deviced and others should continue to enjoy the benefits of status quo.
    Do you suggest we should take to violent protests on streets or you suggest we should adopt ghandian peaceful methods to oppose sc st and obc reservation.Though I and many other believe that these are just unpractical and never going to have any effect are they not creating a confusion in our stand for justice to our people.
    Can you suggest how these economic benefits can reach to deserved categories as we see during the discussion that all these economic criterion is just manipulated by well to do persons.
    By suggesting a status quo are you not asking a continuation of exploitation that is unethical unideal .When you are so much bothered about the possible unjustice that may happen to other nonjat groups ,posting as a jat from a plateform of jat members
    Does a flash of thought ever comes to your mind that our own people are the worst sufferer in present scenario,where we are bracted in a group where all other groups have better access to opportunities.
    Last edited by nkkhoth; September 30th, 2006 at 07:23 PM.

  19. #159
    Guys,

    May I suggest something. Please learn to agree to disagree.

  20. #160
    hey seriously i dont think that jats are the backword and there are so many jats i know that are well educated
    i think it`s all depand on that how u see towards jat bcoz in jat every kind of people u fin well eduacted to farmer

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