i expect people to come and say abt the qns i have put not about other irrelevant issues.
Last edited by sumitdalal; June 16th, 2008 at 11:38 PM. Reason: because i wanted to use red colour to highlight my points which i forgot to use.
Ram ram bhai,
i will ans u point by point.
1)i didnt gave any scenario, i have told u the ground realities.
2)I said not to discuss in favour or against of reservation because we have already discussed over this issue many times.Now its the time to take decision.All those who doesnt support reservation either stop doing this or if they think that they are capable enough to thrive without reservation , i ask them to put themselves on same footing as of those who need reservation...........and than perform.
So no descussion plz........either understand the conditions of the jats suffering in villages or take this challange.
3)I have not even once compared jats with sher and all.
i only quoted some of the members words in one of the thread in the website.
Hello bhai,
Reality is much different from the education and practical experience u are having.The way u keep advocating reservation on economic basis..........u dont know ground reality problems.I will tell u two basic problems in Haryana villages these days to give u some idea.
1)Senior citizen pension(budhapa pension)
In every village around 20% people who are below 50 are having this pension by enrolling their names in the list by influence of money and power.........and around 30% people in village who are above 60 who are eligible for this scheme have not got their enrollment .........i believe u know the reason.
2)Yellow cards for BPL.
In every village there are about 50 people who have got yellow cards and who have properties in lakhs.
I hope u have got my point.In a country like india reservation on economic basis sound very enthusiastic but enrollment of economical established people in the list of economical backward is not tough and tricky.
ECONOMIC BASIS FOR RESERVATION IS NOT PRACTICALLY POSSIBLE IN INDIA.
(I have given facts for my ans. against the economic basis.Plz if anybody wants to come up disagreement, come up with some facts).
Anyways bro, missing u a lot.
Hello All.
What Sumit has tossed up here, is very true in the real case scenario.
But, the main concern is, if we start demanding for equal terms in reservation, it will give rise to another chaotic situation, like what Gujjars are upto now. They are ready to go to extremes to get it implemented. End result, huge loss to the public property, which will again be an imposed burden on common man including the needy Jats. And, it can not be a feasible solution in the first place. Even if Jats are given their share in reservation, how about the other general castes. They will have every right to fight for 'emselves then. One can imagine what it can lead to. Reservation for all. Ain't it funny !!
As far as standing up to the challenge is concerned, it seems to be the most rewarding method. But, needs so much of perseverance from people like you & me who don't have that much time to devote to it, even if we want to support them from the core of our hearts. So, we all end up discussing only here and actual implementation never happens. But, in actual, a little support from us can do wonders.
As Sumit said, our youth in villages (so is the case with many of 'em in urban areas as well) dont find a mentor to show them the way. They have a zeal to learn. I have seen 'em joining English speaking courses, trying to get 'emselves aquainted with personality traits, but again lag behind without any proper guidance and support. It is all about getting into the right environment. I have seen few of them rising upto the situation and take up the challenge. Trust me, they went through. That happened just because they got a helping hand at the right time. Whenever, I go to my village , atleast once in a month, I find many of them coming for advices.Even their parents look upto us for some mentoring. Thats where people like us can prove handy. Most heartening aspect of our youth in villages is, they are a bundle of energy. It's all about harnessing it. Make a good image of yourself in their minds and they always listen to you. Half of the work is done as soon as they start lending their ears to your constructive thoughts.
I know, it is always easier said than done. But, it has to start somewhere, someday. Unless we visit our roots, our villages and contribute back to them, their psychology can never change. If we could do a little on that front, we should consider ourselves lucky and can take pride in it.
Sumit, thanks much for coming up with the idea. It shouldn't matter where do we discuss all these things, as long as it contributes to our near, dear and needy ones. Rest is upto you people to decide. I have many more things to say and would like to contribute a step further. But, as I said, time constraint again hampers me from doing it. Will try writing more in my subsequent post.
Bye for now.
भाई jitender जी, आप मेरी बात का यह निशकर्ष कदाचित ना निकालना की मैं जाट आरक्षण की खिलाफत कर रहा हूँ. परंतु इतना ज़रूर कहना चाहूँगा की आप भारत सरकार के पीछे ही क्यूँ लट्ठ ले कर पड़े हैं...अगर meena, yaadav, gujjar 50% आरक्षण ले भी लेते हैं, तो आप bill gates के साथ काम कीजिए...azim premji के साथ काम कीजिए...tata के साथ काम कीजिए...narayana murthy के साथ काम कीजिए.
i may b stirring the hornet's nest when i say tht "i consider more than 80% of ppl working for govt. as incompetent souls". i dont wanna debate on this, but this is wat i feel...nd i call this as "बाबू मानसिकता".
i'm supporting jaat reservation just for the mere fact tht there r thousands of down-trodden jaats tht really need to hv a single govt. job in their family...एक family से एक ऊपर उठेगा, तो बाकियों को भी उठाएगा...nd thts where the issue of creamy layer among jats will cum into picture (...पहले गाँव तो बस जान दो...we can talk on this issue later-on)
...
however, for the moment, the need of the hour is to support jaat reservation...blind-foldedly. this reservation is badly required by our these brothers who really need the upliftment. बहुत हो चुकी ये खेतों की नलाई भराई...लाम्नियाँ और भैंस चराई.
so folks wake up to the call of the moment...dont b so indifferent to yr fellow brothers...pls...pls...nd pls...support the cause.
Last edited by brahmtewatia; June 17th, 2008 at 12:49 PM.
! ... be BOLD in what you stand for !
!! ... i've the simplest tastes, i'm always satisfied with the best !!
!!! ... be yourself, everyone else is already taken !!!
Bhai saab isme koe bura manan ki baat na .... aapke vichar aapne rakh diye ... mere mein rakh dyun ... harek ka apna mat ho sake hai ...
Par yahan mein aapko uss khatarnak paryas ki taraf dhyan dilana chahunga jisme apne poojniya pradhanmantri ji ne ye aarakshan inn billgates, tata aur azim premji par bhi lagu karne ka ahwan kiya tha ... MUMBAI mein bhari sabha mein ... to bhai ji wo din door nahi jab private sector mein bhi ye log kar denge ... uske baad se ye companies bhi china ki tarf jane lagi hein ....
You are right sumit we should give back to the society from where we emerged ... no doubt that will have much more affect .... but if this is joined with some more available seats to compete that will be more beneficial. You are right that we keep talking here on this platform and nobody is able to present on the ground .... but still I feel it might help somewhere to get points or analysis for the people on ground to spread.
Sumit,
Missing you too!
On the topic , Wont say that i have enough practical experience but will say that i have discussed enough with people and talked about it a lot ( and that includes you as well ) to understand the ground realities.
You are very right in describing the two problems and i agree with you completely that there are inefficacies in the system.
Infact in such a big system , there are bound to be inefficacies, but that surely does not mean we replace one with other.
I am sorry not to put any fats , but lets be logical about it. I ask you one simple question : If i present to you a 2 children of age 5 years , 2 youth of age 20 years and 2 old people of age 50 years.
Both the children are suffering from malnutrition and it is your responsibility to get them right food , both the young guys are unemployed equally talented , and it is your responsibility to get them right job or means of living , and both the old men are helpless , abandoned by family, no means of living!
Let us also hypothesise that all people are similar in apperance and body etc etc.
The Sumit Dalal I know will not ask me which one of them is Jat ? And i am 100 % sure on this.
He will be compassionate of all and will work on getting the things done rather than wasting an iota of time on differentiating between who is who ?
See , when i am saying that economic wellness should be one of the basis , i am not at all suggesting that fraudulent economic level is also the basis. For sure i am counting out the inefficacies and you being attached to that grass root level do know about the inefficacies and you feel about it.
Just doing things for a caste is going to be damaging in the long run , it will spread hatredness among the people and the will lead to conflicting aspirations.
Lets work towards removing the inefficacies , not introducing them.
I hope u appreciate the point!
Clearly, the current system has not worked. If thought wisely and in detail of what a new model can incorporate and do. It can take action and provide the primary neccessities that the current system has failed to provide.
Process (summary):
Indentification of failings and weaknesses of current system -> Determination of changes required-> Investigation of possible solutions -> Design of new model-> Implementation
I have a very good idea of the conditions of schools in villages. I am not sure what gave you the idea that I don't?? :-) My grandfather, Ch. Priya Vart was very active in promoting education in rural areas and establishing educational institutes for many decades.
"Assumption is the mother of all mistakes"
A very constuctive and heartening post indeed. Pretty much matches what Sumit is yearning for (although unconsciously may be ) , MENTORING is something that has to be looked at seriosuly. We are lagging on tapping the resources and the human energy and capital we have at hand.
Being priviliged enough to know , we must feel a certain sense of responsibility to pass on the information.
Reservation, though initially an affirmative action, has reduced to a political cheap trick. Craving for ever diminishing resources is nothing but obvious and every human being, irrespective of cast and creed would strive to grab as much big share as he can. The history is the evidence that ONLY the fittest survive and fittest are the ones who subscribe to best of resources.
I think every cast should demand for reserrvation that too an illogical share e,g every cast can demand for an exclusive 50% share, they should use force and every possible means ..and soon India will be in engulfed in "Internal War".."Mayhem" everywhere..Killings thosusands of people..same kind of situation will be there in India ..what is there in some African countries who are at war within themselves.
I think once millions are buthchered by their very brethren, then citizens of our great country India will realise that there should not be any reservation and only affirmative action should exist in the truest sense..
If this is the solution to eradicate this injustice:-- let it happen earlier the
better!!
Soemtimes, i brood that India will be a nice and more accomodating place as we progress economically & step higher on the social ladder..but to my surprise the kind of incident that are happening on reservation..marathi chauvinism..et al ...point to an altogether different thing..
Let India burn.!!!.so that we can at least understand the true meaning of fair and affirmative world.. till then Njoy..fight individually to grab as much share of resources as you can..Reservation should not be there..if at all it has to stay as a concept let there be reservations who really need it..!!
Last edited by vikasgulia; June 17th, 2008 at 10:52 PM.
Vikas Gulia
JAT- Just Adore Them
"जाट गन्ना न दे, भेली दे दे"
Tell one thing honestly after practically thinking over it... do yu think if Jats get reservation, it ll raech the real needy... i mean will the ppl who are in real need...like the villagers yu ve mentioned who are deprived of all facilities..... get the benefit of reservation.....???
In another post of yours abt economic criteria yu urself ve mentioned... how system is failed.... n ppl who ve properties take yellow card n those below 50 take old age pension...so similar ll happen in the case of reservation... the needy wont get benefitted by this ... it ll only help who are already in better position.
Major problem in this country is failure of system.... they cant provide quality education,,, cant provide baisc amenities to all.... n so much more....!!!
Reservation is no solution... it ll create gap n hatred among the casts,, nothing else.
NO reservation n better n free education for all should be the motto.
Keep Believing in Yourself and Your Dreams
something similar like yellow card n other helps... Haryana Govt. gives scholarship to reserved classes in schools and colleges.. i got to know abt the college scenario... these guys take admission every year... take scholarship n then drop out..next year they come again,, n do the same. Then govt gave bicycles to all these underpriveleged classes students... they took it... n same... nxt year again they take admission n take again cycle n on the spot sell the new one in some price less than the cost. This is no story, its happening in real.... Govt. is spending crores of budget in terms of giving incentives to them, so that they can get education, but they do take admission, grab the incentives , but no outcome.
And now our dear Haryana Govt is planning to distribute computers to all of them,,, to make them tech savvy..... n we know how technically trained they are going to be with that....!!!
I fail to understand.... Doesnt Govt. know wats happening in reality......still doing it...spending or i shud say wasting big amount of money on such a futile effort .... if its not a political gimmick....wat else...???
Keep Believing in Yourself and Your Dreams
If people think that reservation can ensure a better position for the community in social and financial circles than definitely it's a false preception. In contrast, it creates a wider gap among the clans and community itself ...... courtesy to the 'NICE' political and administrative system of Independent Republic of India. The best thing about the present system is that if you have resources than it doesn't matter whether you fall into the category of reserved people or not .... your future is assured ( not talking about fate/fortune ).
Let's talk about the burning topic. In Rajasthan, Gujjar's are on Railway Tracks for reservation. Let's suppose that somehow they manage to get it ( rare possibilities ), do you think they will emerge out as winners. NO. Col. Bainsla's political ambitions lead him to lost his credibility within the community and he is fighting for that ONLY.
Let me clear the equation for you people here behind the Gujjar Movement in Rajasthan. Meena's have 4 MP seats, 16-20 seats in assembly ( SC reservation) and Gujjar are eyeing on that only. It's irony that poor people are sacrificing their lives for the mighty and corrupt ones. The movement is reaching Jaipur and one day 'we' asked a Gujjar that what for are you fighting ? Poor soul replied that their leaders told them that they are going to be rich within three months. That's the essence of this movement, perception, ambitions and off courese FUTURE.
For the people who talk about hard work :
My forefathers have some land in a villege in Ganganagar Distt of Rajasthan. Without any arguement ...... best fertile area in India ..... in Ghagghar Besin. 95% population of that villege is SC and ST. Those 95% SC/ST since last 60 years are living in poverty by their own wish but having all the opprtunities to work hard and get richer. They possess lands worth of crores ( due to the govt. policies only ). I spent two years there and analyze them so closely. A person having a land of worth approx. 10 Crores is more than ready to work as a 70 Rs/day labourer instead of cultivating his own fields. GOD BLESS. ( Don't want to tell some other details as some people may got irritated )
So, what's an opportunity if you don't work and if you are hard working .... opportunities will come to you by itself.
It's better to be alone than in a bad company.
Last edited by vijay; June 18th, 2008 at 05:38 AM.
It's better to be alone than in a bad company.