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Thread: HOUNOR KILLINGS IN INDIA AND JATs

  1. #41
    Col Tevathia ji, a woman,s greatest honor is motherhood.There can,t be a greater honor for a women than becoming a mother and can,t be a greater dishonor or disgrace than becoming partner to the killing of her own child with her grand child in her womb!



    It is very very complex situation. those from rural background would know this better. I agree with Colonel Malik the whole outlook of the community needs an overhauling.

    I remember an incident in my village where two teenager of our community were involved. Same Gottra, same Village, same Panna. They were two young to realise any thing. They ran away from home but where the two 15-16 year old could go. There end looked like a suicide or was made to look like a suicide. Believe me , the tragic end was a big relief to the whole village.

    I was too in my teens and was of the view that time that there was no alternate to what had happened. After 30 years of that incident I have no clearcut solution to that problem.

    What are the feasible solutions?

    Do away with Gotra system and allow marriages in same Gotra?

    Allow marriage in the same village?

    Allow intercaste marriage even within in a village?

    Allow all the above but the couple cease to have any relation/ connection/inheritance ?



    I wouldn,t support this heinious crime even in my wildest dream but favoure the age old customs of not marrying in at least same Gotra.

    I believe, all the members would agree with Colonel Malik that the community needs to make some fundamental changes. I would request all the members to contribute and suggest the ways to tackle this problem.
    Last edited by spdeshwal; May 15th, 2008 at 09:19 AM.

  2. #42
    I consider the present Gotra system of marriage as a deterrent that restricts such incidents. It restricts youths from any relationship within the same Gotra/ village. Number of violent incidents is more where intercaste, relationship/ marriages happen.

  3. #43
    Satyepal Sir,
    Referring to your points raised by you (waise till now i was not aware that this was a same gotra case also as it was not mentioned in any news and updates.

    1. origin of gotra was obviously when gotras were like small families. it was a system designed by man to suit those times. Not today when gotra stregths are 10 to 15 lakhs.

    2. scientifically 5 generation gap is maintained and considered safest.

    3. some people have strong sentiments attached to gotras since they have lived with the concept in all the upbringing. These people should by all means follow gotra system to the extent they feel fine. We all can understand these sentiments. I always feel a closer bond with those who are Gulia or ahlawat(my maternal gotra).

    4. However, if any person wants to not abide by the system he should be free to do so and with as much respect as anyone else. If you dont want to meet him or talk to him, fine.

    5. We dont need to do away with gotra system or caste system, time will do that (whether we want that to happen or not). But those who dont want to follow it, can do so.

    6. Today so many arranged marriages are happening without declaring that the third gotra was not adhered too i.e 3rd gotra (grandmothers) clashing. when good rishta comes the samaj silently ignored third gotra.

    7. the human civilisation has always changed/evolved since stone age and will do so, ir-respective of whether we want it to change or not.


    roodhivadita abhishaap hai, hame aur samaj ko apni soch ko bada karne ki jaroorat hai.

    jis samaj ne un mata pita ko itna uksaya ki unhone apne bachchon ko maar dala, wo samaj utna hi doshi hai.

    "कर्मंयेवाधिकरास्ते = कर्मणि एव अधिकार: ते = कर्म करनें में ही अधिकार है तुम्हारा"

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by sidchhikara View Post
    Leaders kya bolenge .... leaders represent mostly uneducated people who don't care about this or think it is ok.

    Some of the so-called educated people on this forum think that this was somehow justified.

    Garmi mein inki buddhi brahsht ho rahi se.
    Dear bro calm down!! i really don't justify the act of killing even a bit. It's not a crime to search for happiness what exactly couple did but have you stretched your nerves to find out the actual cause that provoked parents to take this drastic step? I think the biggest fear of the parents/family was that whole community/village will slander the family till centuries. Not even this generation but forthcoming generations also would be humiliated ..issi baat koi na bhoolta ..gaama main to kai peedhiyan lok kahawat ban jaaya karree... ..solution lies not in blaming parents but lies somewhere else...hope u understand
    Last edited by prashantacmet; May 15th, 2008 at 05:16 PM.
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  5. #45

    Smile

    I wanna ask you al ----- how many of you would favour a jat grl marrying in muslim community or to lower castes?
    Last edited by jatriski99; May 15th, 2008 at 03:18 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by jatriski99 View Post
    I wanna ask you al ----- how many of you would favour a jat grl marrying in muslim community or to lower castes?

    Praggya , I guess u r missing the whole point here.

    a very simple question that has been raised up here is : does a human life has a value or not ? can two people decide to live the life they would like to or not?


    rahi baat , muslim ya lower caste mein shadi karne ki to , I would only say , if the two peope involved have taken the decision they must given thought to all the pros n cons.no body is immamture to take such decision without any prudence ...
    waise just n FYI... the same has happened in our village.... where one of the girl from our community has married the muslim guy and nobody seems to be minding that.. and touch wood she living well and blessed with two beautiful kids

    Cheers to the humanity

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by jatriski99 View Post
    I wanna ask you al ----- how many of you would favour a jat grl marrying in muslim community or to lower castes?
    1. as many girls, as would chose a muslim/other caste partners. fine with me.
    2. girls of Jat community are not my personal property and i dont want to treat them like that.
    will the humans ever evolve beyond these petty things?

    "कर्मंयेवाधिकरास्ते = कर्मणि एव अधिकार: ते = कर्म करनें में ही अधिकार है तुम्हारा"

  8. #48
    --------------------
    Last edited by shashiverma; May 16th, 2008 at 06:22 PM.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by nysa View Post
    Praggya , I guess u r missing the whole point here.

    a very simple question that has been raised up here is : does a human life has a value or not ? can two people decide to live the life they would like to or not?


    rahi baat , muslim ya lower caste mein shadi karne ki to , I would only say , if the two peope involved have taken the decision they must given thought to all the pros n cons.no body is immamture to take such decision without any prudence ...
    waise just n FYI... the same has happened in our village.... where one of the girl from our community has married the muslim guy and nobody seems to be minding that.. and touch wood she living well and blessed with two beautiful kids

    Cheers to the humanity
    Eight wonder of world...kaun sa gaam hai ji aapka.?..ham bhi darshan kar lenge
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  10. #50
    Praggya....why are you going out of JAT community? A question to ALL Members favoring the Girl's act- How many of you have married in your village itself or first cousins? or will be marrying off your children in same pattern as the deceased girl did?The murder was a brutal step....no doubt about it but how many can actually HER STEPS? It certainly feels great to type about such things and appreciating each other's fancy words BUT can all who have unmarried children really go to your villages and find suitable matches in their villages itself not out of it?
    Quote Originally Posted by jatriski99 View Post
    I wanna ask you al ----- how many of you would favour a jat grl marrying in muslim community or to lower castes?
    Last edited by sunitahooda; May 15th, 2008 at 07:37 PM.
    I AM WHAT I AM....JAT.... 16X2=8

  11. #51

    i am not that expereinced to quote or unquote

    i am a person who accepts the situation and move on .. whereas what i find is that many ppl among our jat community is not ready to move on ...

    for example a jat girl wants to marry a muslim or a village guy ... like any other parents u will object it and tells the girl the pitfalls .. even after that the girl marries then what happens is this :

    even if a girl is living happily and fighting hard and works day and night and earnign good enough money .. what parents does is this .. whenever she comes in home instead of talking in a polite manner they say hummne kaha tha na yeh sahi nahi hein .. hum to yeh bol rahe the wagera wagera
    .. humme to pehle pata tha yeh hoga and always tries to prove that they r right ......

    whereas what shd it be ... parents shd be polite in every manner to a girl ...they shd support her in every manner ... they shd not be a cause of worry for the girl ....that her parents r behaving in this manner because she has taken the decision ...

    what if parents has chosen and she faces prob then ...

    so what i want to say is that u shd accept the situation .. work hard and try to make it better .. if sincere effort is there then i dont think any thing will not work....

    now someone say what if girl faces the lots of problem ... then according to me parents shd not take decission ... let the girl take decision what she wants .. its her life .. u just have to be suggestion giver but that too also to soem extent ...
    1) The most successful people fail the most.

    but

    2) Act as if it is impossible to fail.

  12. #52
    "All Desirable things in life are either banned, illegal, expensive, fattening or married to someone else!"
    I like this quote. It is amusing. Sex and love and longing were so expensive for Sunita, she paid it with her life!

    More serious tone: the killing of Sunita and Jasbir, the lovers, is in a way the responsibility of her family, villagers and extended family members, village elders and other panchayat members, and … the Jat community, including a virtual community such as ours. Before shooting me for this statement, reread the statements of the honorable Jat virtual community members above.

    To say is politely, someone would state “we are humans with weaknesses and shortcomings. We sin, and approve such a sin (the killing of Sunita and Jasbir) because some of our century old culture kept us insensitive to rationality of the status of being human. Wanting to be loved, and loving someone is natural for human being. Some fall in love with the pretty, educated, rich and internationally savvy Jat boy, her family found (bought) through business connections. Other just fall in love naturally, despite all the centuries old taboos of their “prestigious lineages.”

    To say it less diplomatically, other person would say “We Jats are backwards. Even the most educated of us, with PhD degree and Internet literacy, could not comprehend – why the heck are they in love anyway?” Indeed, what a stupid concept: falling in love with someone your parents did not designate? Why don’t they (Sunita and Jasbir) obey to their elders edicts? Why fall in love out of wedlock while you know pertinently that you are Jats?

    To put the weight of cultural backwardness in perspective, just think of “how are the Jats living and working in large cities looking at the ways and means of those Jats in villages?” How are the “educated traditions and pride” of those working for governments and large businesses and the Army viewed by those Jats who owned houses in the United Kingdom and Kentucky, USA? This is to say that backwardness is RELATIVE, and SUBJECTIVE view of the world.

    Probably the family of Sunita felt a strong peer pressure amongst villagers. For them to become whole and be accepted again by the village elders and other panchayat members and their neighbors, they needed to “wash the perceived sin of their daughter, by killing her”. So did they.
    There is hope: just the fact that the troubling event was reported and discussed here is a hope that someday, 10 years or 100 years from now, the Jats will shed their backwardness and embrace all the good things of the world. Being human means being able to select and judge, what needs to be kept and fostered (such as higher education and good grammar), and what needs to be trashed (such as honor killing and profanities.)


    ==========

    Quote Originally Posted by jatriski99 View Post
    I would say girl took a wrong decision instead of living with the taxi driver she must have given a seriuos thought about her 'identity crisis'. she must have left her parents n husband forever n worked hard to be independent.

    vo to ek hell se nikalkar dusre hell me chali gayi............I don't understand the whole concept of getting married, are we girls only for marrige n kids? i mean girls must refuse to except this . she wasn't financially n socially strong that's why she became a victim, if she had been that strong i think her life would have been on otherway.. ..i will strongly say education is important 4 girls not marriage or the so called 'love'.
    one more thing 4 parents............
    aaj bhi ladki tumhare upar bhoj hai, ek dar hai,tumhari taakat nahi kamjori hai........I have seen in my village mere saath ki sari ladkiyon ki haalat.......unhe kahin bhi kuch nahi mila na apne ghar mein na sasural mein........dono jagah unhone sirf gobar utahaya aur bhans ko nilaya........they don't know abt es gaon aur ghar ke bhar bhi ek duniya hai.....aur gaon ke bujurg bhaut proud feel karte hain unpar......crap........
    4 grls............
    hamari pheli priority honi chahiye.......to be financially n socially strong.....rest baad mein. aft all this is ur life hemare har faisle hamari life ko nayi disha dikhate hain........if yr parents refuse to allow u from getting married to yr whatever..........i think it's better don't get married 4 whole life.......

  13. #53
    This is a very thoughtful post by one of our most worthy members. So I wish to just repost it to emphasis my approbation, instead of paraphrasing what is well said. Thanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by jagmohan View Post
    Dear All,

    A very sad incident indeed and unfortunately not the last one, as these things will happen again. As people become more and more educated and aware, especially the girl child, there are bound to be questions raised against traditions and customs. The older generation will do what they think as right and the newly educated and liberated young minds will question them. This is a fact of the matter and there is no way out as no one is willing to acknowledge that there is a problem that exists in the villages. In cities no one has the time to notice such things but in the villages people have lot of time for ‘noticing’, in fact many do nothing but do only this.

    Is this ‘so called honor killing’ justified? No. Should concerned persons be punished? Yes, as quickly as possible. Was it right for the young couple to do what they did? The mind says, what they did was no crime, but the heart says otherwise. And it is this dilemma that will face our community (and all others who have this gotra system) in times to come. There is a very old and apt saying about brotherhood and ‘Bhaichara’ and it goes like this: “Bhai sabse pehle Gaam Ka, pher Got ka, pher Gavhand ka, pher Jaat (caste) ka, pher Paat ka, pher Desh ka aur pher Bhesh ka” (This has been mentioned by another worthy member in another post).

    Now the question is: What to do? There is no way our community and its members, educated or otherwise, would accept girls and boys from the same village get into a situation where they either elope or get married. They may have been affairs between girls and boys in the villages, but our community would not accept these things openly. I don’t foresee marriages taking place in the same gotra in the next 1000 years. I may be wrong but I have had a little experience of living in a village and have tried to understand the mindset of those who live there, some of them even very educated ones.

    The role of a woman or mother who remains a key factor in deciding the future of the girl child needs to be seriously looked into. As long as women are treated the way they are in the villages, nothing will improve. It is necessary for the womenfolk to come out of this vicious circle of ‘wanting to have a male child’ and thinking of a male child as one who would be a harbinger of prosperity. For that to happen, girls must be allowed to own ancestral property including land. The whole outlook of the community needs an overhaul. I know it is easier said than done but then there is no other way.

    As for the departed souls, may God rest their souls in peace.

    Regards,

    JS Malik

  14. #54

    Question

    I have a female friend at Jatland who says that she doesn't have any match for her within the Jat community.

    Should we kill her at first place ....... or let her try her theory to understand this world ?
    It's better to be alone than in a bad company.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by vijay View Post
    I have a female friend at Jatland who says that she doesn't have any match for her within the Jat community.

    Should we kill her at first place ....... or let her try her theory to understand this world ?
    Hmmm.. lets see.... I know you question is rhetorical ... but I will treat it as literal.

    And mind you ... I am just reflecting the thoughts of a minority of members on Jatland.

    Lets come up with a way to kill.....

    1) Using guns is not safe because it can be traced back to the owner.
    2) How about kick her in the face till her facial features disappear.
    3) If she is pregnant kicking her in the stomach would do the trick since it is a vulnerable spot ... ek teer se do shikar.
    4) She can be hanged in the chaupal while the sarpanch puffs at his hooka.
    5) Stabbing, it seems convenient and there is choice. The butcher can use daranti, saag katne ki chhuri, or order a Rampuri chakkoo since this is a special occasion.
    6) How about an old-fashioned rape-kill-run?

    Most importantly, after the kill, a decision has to be made about the corpse display. This includes what the corpse should wear - lets go traditional this time since it will complement the reason for killing - tradition! A full-fledged daaman is needed. This can be found in daadi's sandook. How about arranging a dharam so that people from neighboring villages can also attend this spectacle -- ladoo, jalebi bhi jeem jyange.

    I am not finished... here's the kicker - The gentleman who does the execution can say that it is in the name of Jat tradition. This will also provide ink to the press and exhibit the valor of our people.

    Members are free to add more ways to kill to the above list.
    Last edited by sidchhikara; May 16th, 2008 at 04:55 AM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by sidchhikara View Post
    Hmmm.. lets see.... I know you question is rhetorical ... but I will treat it as literal.

    And mind you ... I am just reflecting the thoughts of a minority of members on Jatland.

    Lets come up with a way to kill.....

    1) Using guns is not safe because it can be traced back to the owner.
    2) How about kick her in the face till her facial features disappear.
    3) If she is pregnant kicking her in the stomach would do the trick since it is a vulnerable spot ... ek teer se do shikar.
    4) She can be hanged in the chaupal while the sarpanch puffs at his hooka.
    5) Stabbing, it seems convenient and there is choice. The butcher can use daranti, saag katne ki chhuri, or order a Rampuri chakkoo since this is a special occasion.
    6) How about an old-fashioned rape-kill-run?

    Most importantly, after the kill, a decision has to be made about the corpse display. This includes what the corpse should wear - lets go traditional this time since it will complement the reason for killing - tradition! A full-fledged daaman is needed. This can be found in daadi's sandook. How about arranging a dharam so that people from neighboring villages can also attend this spectacle -- ladoo, jalebi bhi jeem jyange.

    I am not finished... here's the kicker - The gentleman who does the execution can say that it is in the name of Jat tradition. This will also provide ink to the press and exhibit the valor of our people.

    Members are free to add more ways to kill to the above list.

    even these would not suffice ..trust me on this buddy ..


    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Eight wonder of world...kaun sa gaam hai ji aapka.?..ham bhi darshan kar lenge

    gaam ka naam bhujh k koi fayda koni coz neither ur muslim nor from the lower caste.

  17. #57
    Sunita, no offences ..but wat do u suggest ???


    Well, if we go by this HONOUR KILLING then mind it , half of these villages would be dead , Now ppl dont act as if we are not aware how extra -marital had been flourishing in our villages ryt under our PRUDENT noses!!

    Not just dat, are we not aware of the affairs that been springing among the teens, the teens pregnencies, kept in hush, avoided to come into light!!

    Killings will stop such cases who can guarantee this ?? Nobody. I m not promoting or concurring what the deceased did...but can we all think of a solution ? Is there any ? All I can think of is education putting a sense of ryt and wrong from the childhood and giving some respect to the FEMALES , at least a recognition as human being.

  18. #58
    Hummmm.... Its so very true!!

    Lil offtopic, I find ur name lil strange, how do ya spell it?

    Ok, now lets get back to the topic!...


    Quote Originally Posted by saranrabar View Post
    "All Desirable things in life are either banned, illegal, expensive, fattening or married to someone else!"
    Last edited by cooljat; May 16th, 2008 at 10:54 AM.
    .. " Until Lions have their historians, tales of the hunt shall always glorify the hunter! " ..



  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by nysa View Post
    even these would not suffice ..trust me on this buddy ..





    gaam ka naam bhujh k koi fayda koni coz neither ur muslim nor from the lower caste.
    iska matlab lower caste arr muslim hona zaroori sai .......:p...suthra gaam sai:rolleyes:.......2-4 gaam aur likad jaange uss main tai mixed breed aale.....:rock
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by jatriski99 View Post
    I wanna ask you al ----- how many of you would favour a jat grl marrying in muslim community or to lower castes?
    I just wanna tweak this question.....

    How many of us would favour our jat daughter/sister/bua/Grand daughter to marry in our Gotra/our village or may be with her cusion (she has every right to follow her heart...)

    I dont know but i think there is something called INCEST.

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