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Thread: Vision for Jats--A Movement Awaiting..

  1. #1
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    Vision for Jats--A Movement Awaiting..

    In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race. --- Ch. Chottu Ram.

    These lines from the legendary and visionary Jat which is signature line of a respected member , inspired me to start this thread. Many times while going through ancient, medieval and modern history; I pondered ~~WHY nature has been generous to this very race to gift some specific gene which are crown of human behaviour. It is very much rhetorical to understand that in past, natural calamities, invasions and other social conventions led Jats to rise and rise in a fashion to conquer impossible humane feats. In the last century, with the invention of electronic and other means of media, jats has started coming in limelight in various fields. Though they are enjoying and had enjoyed social rapport as socially upper caste( caste is purely Portuguese induced term because they arrived before the Britishers who later followed the same term to divide and rule the various section of society).It is evident in rural areas that Jats dominate in a fashion that political parties frame, reframe their policies to please jat voters but that is a different issue altogether here.

    If not overall but a lot of , with the opening of markets during the times of Globalization, rural charm is on decline in festivals, social meetings, culture interests.We must not forget that European reniassance was initiated with enriching cultural endeavours by writers, musicians firstly.There is a wave of insecurity among race due to the shrinking of resources. That we all observe when poor Bengalis fought to death for their land in Singur , our Jats were eager to sign the deal.~~ WHY the sons of soil are facing such a problem?~~ Please, put your opinions not only based on economical reasons but also on social and cultural terms.

    Secondly, the decline of (almost degraded) of role-modelship. It is pathetic to know that example of Mallika Sherawat is given nationally about characteristic of the race. And that too in a willingly stupid way.

    It can be seen from another point of view, this is the severe lack of a role model in representing the Jats or not respecting/following which already are standing. Since religiously we are not same stage like Sikhs, Muslims. This makes this UNITY a mamooth challenge. Also we are not facing a bigger challenge like Sikhs in 1984. Reservation too sound more of a path filled with roses of pity.Pity is the cup of tea for weaks.Brave and confidenced always achieve on the basis of their free will and dogged determination.Choice is clear.One is a way which leads to dignity, honour and quite characterstical to Jats another is of confused, dependent and of mediocre.

    One of our members asked WHAT Yadavs have lost by taking this reservation. I say that in pure desi words-rees karo to kam se kam apne se uper aala ki. My answer and question here is to look in to the ultra-minority of Parsis. WHAT provoked them to be the luminaries on the sky of India? We can solve most of queries regarding reservation issue, provided we see their uprising rather than socially down Yadavs if taken them as caste.

    So WHAT do you people think about issues, agendas, visions to stand together? What should be the consolidated structure of a common enduring roof.

    Most of you will be going to say about education for uprising. But WHAT kind of education? Education system too is Lord McClay's mind's product of making us a slave. Education or lack of it hardly matters when induced a zeal to be successful.

    Let us diagnose some of our infected parts honestly, with candid acceptance and enthusiastically cure them. It is a responsibility awaiting. Firstly applying to self, then in surrounding enviornment through harmonious approach . Yes!! one can definitely do that. Humans have that spirit and Jats in a way are brave human fighters. There is always a time to do anything.

    PS: Put your views in good deliberated form so that it becomes a place to notice a single input. Healthy discussion can make aware many coming members and present as well. A controlled aggression towards subject would be really appreciable.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Samarkadian; August 13th, 2008 at 01:02 PM.
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

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  3. #2
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    Thanks mate for giving the Section a head start.

    Here are my view on the topic :

    • Not long ago , infact to be precise in around early 2006 , I really was not aware of any Jats that have been into successful professional fields. Coming from a modest rural background and my own lack of going out and seeing the world did not help. Infact I was never aware of anything called IITs when I finished my class 10th studies and it was one of my uncle ( my father's friend ( not a Jat )) who lured me into vying for that. But as I joined internet on Orkut and Jatland , the overwhelming number of Jat people working as technocrats , managers , engineers , scientists and in media and all other fields made me wonder in awwe.

    • With regards to you point of everyone wanting to move away from traditional work of agriculture , I believe we should aptly name this phenomenon as "Race to Globalisation" , which I believe is not the best strategy. Can only quote one of the dohas : " Dheere dheere re mana , dheere sab kuch hoye ; maali seenche so ghada , ritu aaye fal hoye ". We must imbibe in ourselves that no work is superior and each one is important in what he/she is doing. Only that will lead to a development path which is holistic and is not skewed to any particular sphere of life. Your point of a social and cultural awakening is something I think is the urgent need , it is time to realise that we move not only physically but mentally into 21st century and responsiblity of parents/future parets /elders becomes even more important to imbibe in the people ethics and noble qualities. Tradition/Culture is something I believe is not rebuilt in different ages but only enhances/improved with minor modifications.

    • With regards to your role model thing , I guess this is very individual specific , I am not denying the needs of leaders but we must not base ourselves on orders/action points of one particular group/person , but rather try and being social/cultural/personal/ professional entrepreneurs ourselves. Small ventures can later be big , but big ideas ( not implemented ) are nowhere as compared to small ventures as well. We must not wait for opportunities ( if they are not existent ) at a very big , macro level , but rather in the meantime create opportunities at micro level. Let us be role models and inspirations for each other , each one teaching/learning from the other.

    • With regards to Education system , I really dont find a lot of fault ( and that is justified in presence of an proved alternative ) with the current systems , may be one thing that needs be changed is the delivery mechanism and the intake mechanism as well.
    On the delivery part :: Rote learning should be discouraged while inquisitiveness , thinking , analytical abilitiy and innovation is one thing that should be encouraged. People must be asked to implement ideas in which they believe rather than doing things which have been successful or are in popularity. WE should be forward looking rather than chasing the past. Ofcourse we all must posess memory to learn from the past but we cannot naiively assume that history repeats itself because over the period of time , everyone learns from their mistakes and it is quite probable that similar mistakes are not repeated but newer ones are created , so rather than just finding cures for the past , we must think proactively on what can go wrong in future.

    On the intake part , of course we must take things that strike to ourselves more serious than others but surely that does not mean we forget everything else. Extreme learning/behaviour is something that can lead to a disconnect between popular goals and self-goals. Other arts/trades /school of thoughts must also be respected and we must try and have a basic understanding of the same. If i have to remember a course I liked and remember most , it would be a course of Science and Humanism rather than those hard core maths courses. It taught me a lot about life.
    We must try and remember that we must try and excel not only professionally but personally and socially /culturally as well.
    In that case to connect life and mathematics , I would say that the best graph of two competing life parts is tha straight line passing through origin and having a slope of 1. It represents the balance between those competing variables , it is that balance that holds the beauty of life and it is that balance that we all must strive for.

    This individual vision should lead to the development of individual in sync with the family / caste / society / nation , all levels of development.

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  5. #3
    Very nice , best topic as welcome thread to the sec by Samar
    My view
    Education :- Not so bad and same time We cant change much to the education system. Main thing I have noticed is awareness about the educational system. I belong to a extremely rural area in district Muzaffarnagar UP. You go to any inter college and ask about IIT // NDA // Medical // IIM. You ill be shocked about the response. Golden aim of Jat boys in these schools is to become the Delhi police ka SIPAHI. Second option is constable in other police / para military /armed forces. Good talent is being wasted due to non availability of good guidance. This the Jat society reputation, u cant believe that most demanded Jat grooms are Delhi police constable. ( I want excuse from all constable from Delhi police or other forces , my aim is not to degrade u or defame u.) I want to convey the point that mind set has to be changed. at least, hidden talent in our Jat community has to be guided properly. The Jatlanders and this site can do wonders in this area.
    Traditional job : This community cant survive on agriculture. A good sign is noticed now a days to opt other fields as well. Jats are dominating very high in every field. We lack unity and groups here, to boost the upcoming youth. In rural area, success of any Jat boy / girl is not taken in good spirit by the local community, why he / she ??? Our community is really facing the absence of a Good leader to overcome these low mentality.
    The never-ending task : Self Improvement

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  7. #4

    management for the jats

    Tarphu karma jus viranga taru kate mare na jaise
    Sadhan kare vichar heen mun, shubd hova na kaise

    Due to his karmas man becomes like a young warrior who lies bleeding to death on the battlefield. This reason for this is that the lower or baser mind concentrates only on material gratification, so why should it not lead to depression and pain.
    When a man is young he is like the seasonal river, which gushes with exuberance and makes a great noise only for it to dry up, like in old age, when the rains stop. The man who realizes this has known the permanent from the temporary.
    Management is all about going from facts to theory and never vice versa. It is like the Indian thought which is based on the inductive logic which goes from the particular to the general, unlike the western thought which is based on deductive logic in which you go from the general to the particular.

    The greatest reason for our slavery has been that our strength, compassion and love, which has led to building stable families and our deep philosophy, has also led to forgiving and forgetting very easily. We have never really punished the perpetuators of the most heinous crimes in our history. Our strength has thus become our weakness. Too much of misapplied goodness is counterproductive. One should first analyze, who he is applying his good intentions to.
    I do not know the key to success but I can tell you the key to failure and that is trying to please everyone.

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  9. #5

    Thumbs up

    Thanks Samar for starting this thread

    'It is a fine thing to have ability, but the ability to find ability of the others is the true test'.

    Regarding your point that everybody is moving away from traditional work of agriculture, you may call it RACE TO GLOBALISATION as Anil said or other way to look at this is that we dont have resources, land holding is reducing with years and at most of the places its dependent on rain, so you cant survive on agriculture, you have to look for others options. So, they are bound to move away from this and in doing so where they should go and what they should do we need the leader or role models who can give them inspiration to do something that they want achieve in their lives. We need role models(likes of Ch. Chhoturam) for them, be it from some different race or some celebrity who can inspire them and we need people who can guide them in their pursuit .

    I dont think anything is wrong is aspiring to become a constable in police or paramilitary or army, My father was in Crpf and because of that i was able to reach where i'm today , i never aspired to become a constable( reason being i was provided a good education by taking me out of village, which changed my thinking and attitude towards life without forgetting about my roots where i belong to) even though i belong to a very rural background where you get power only for eight hours and there are hardly any faculty in school even if few are there they dont know how to teach?

    I ll tell you one anecdote, i was talking to one of acquaintance who is a Jat working with a MNC, a postgraduate and very affluent and some point i asked him about the gotra of his mother and grand mother much to the chagrin of mine and others present there he was not aware of his mother and grandmother gotra, this is not one of incident but story of many jats.
    Here comes the role of education, what kind of education
    As one of you rightly said we need practical education that can imbibe the values and inculcate in them the values that we have inherited from generation to generation but now days we are loosing them somewhere, we should not let this happen to us.
    we need to tell our generation about the challenges our ancestors have faced , about the sacrifices they have made, about the struggle they made in giving us what we have today.

    Regarding the Mallika Sehrawat from my point she does not represent our race but one of individual who belongs to this race and i dont see anything wrong in what she is doing, she is pursuing a career what half ( may be more than that) of girls of this country aspire to be. The people who are maligning her are nothing but the pure hypocrites, they dont not utter a word when other actress are doing that but when any jat girl do that they just try to obloquy that girl. its sheer traducement nothing more than that. This is the tricks of these brahmans and baniyas to malign our race in one way or others.

    What is need " Ideas are of no use if they are in mind, they are only of use when they are put into actions", so we need to put our ideas into action for the upliftment of our race and ourselves.
    Khudi ko kar buland itna ke har taqder se pehle
    Khuda bande se ye poche bata teri raza kia hai

  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by pscil View Post
    Tarphu karma jus viranga taru kate mare na jaise
    Sadhan kare vichar heen mun, shubd hova na kaise

    Due to his karmas man becomes like a young warrior who lies bleeding to death on the battlefield. This reason for this is that the lower or baser mind concentrates only on material gratification, so why should it not lead to depression and pain.

    When a man is young he is like the seasonal river, which gushes with exuberance and makes a great noise only for it to dry up, like in old age, when the rains stop. The man who realizes this has known the permanent from the temporary.
    Management is all about going from facts to theory and never vice versa. It is like the Indian thought which is based on the inductive logic which goes from the particular to the general, unlike the western thought which is based on deductive logic in which you go from the general to the particular.

    The greatest reason for our slavery has been that our strength, compassion and love, which has led to building stable families and our deep philosophy, has also led to forgiving and forgetting very easily. We have never really punished the perpetuators of the most heinous crimes in our history. Our strength has thus become our weakness. Too much of misapplied goodness is counterproductive. One should first analyze, who he is applying his good intentions to.

    I do not know the key to success but I can tell you the key to failure and that is trying to please everyone.
    This is one of the best post I have read on site which explains philosophicaly many things related to the ways of living.Every youngster who visits this section should go through this post for personal and professional gain.

    Like Sanjeev Said, Jatlanders and this site can do wonders , I do have always believed in this thing.But once again I would like to raise one point 'reason' or 'need' to be united. Like I mentioned in first post, different religious sect have their own roof to stand together in any crisis. Jats as such do not have any roof where we can call people. So this makes this task more challenging.This site gives a strong database of educated and experienced.
    jats.But again question arises why should Jat be together? Like at the time of Kargil the whole country was united and wanted to contribute in any possible manner to the country.There are already many issues which are needed to be addressesd seriously.One of them is Female Foeticide in Haryana and Among Jat population.Many news channels have proudly shown documentaries over this critical male to female ratio in jats and buying of brides from southern and eastern states..This tag really seems to push us in medevivial times.

    Can any one from us come forward to really diagnose the actual reason for such a down trodden mentality prevailing among ethnic brave people?

    I also welcome female members to discuss this issue in detail.
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

  11. #7
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    I would in this post of mine touch upon some of the previous posts by others and try and put forward my views ( substantiation at some point and disagreement at others).


    1) I do agree with Rinku about Mallika. She is just being a professional. Whatever she does is with herself. Imagine someone selling those crappy mortgages to investors , that was professional but unethical in that sense!
    Everyone does his/her job , let them be!
    Rather than finger pointing at others , we should try and analyse ourselves!

    2) About the incident Rinku mentioned that the guy did not know his mother and grandmother gotras. This is what I call a curse(coule be worse in future?)on the educated section of our community. Loosing touch with the base is worse that can happen. We are the elite , the so called cream , If we forget our roots , neglect the responsibility we have , forget what we owe to our society at large , who else will? We all must appreciate that social responsibility is a duty , it should not be a leisure/time paas / low priority thing. It should be taken more seriously. Reminded of a quote from an IITian who was a topper some 15 years back and opted for social service : He said " The social sector needs INTELLIGNET people ".

    I am not trying to create a hype around ourselves , but stating the fact , We do have the mind , and the contacts and the resources to do something good. At least we dont have so much to worry about what would we be eating in the next meal!

    3) Parvir's point of we being too forgiving /forgetting was something that I could not comprehend a lot , so more clarifications from him would help me. On face value I would say that the same thing has kept us from breaking down totally. We still have regards for values , ethics , family , culture and perhaps the fire within us to do good. Perhaps the reason why we are discussing at all as well!
    Though i reiterate that I did not get him completely!

    I strongly agree to him that trying to please everyone is the worst we can think of /implement. Too much of democracy is destructive. Not everybody is a leader , most are followers , and always revolution/change first hand finds a resistance , which breaks down in long term.

    4) Samar's point of female foeticide , well mate , its a bubble (is not it ?), it will burst , though as with all bubbles it will pain! I have this wild interest of correlating everything with life , is not this something like a housing bubble we just saw go burst in US , the leverage bubble , the ballooning profits , the so called smart I-Bankers ( MBA's and MS's and PHD's ) , the ever growing risk appetite? Nothing can survive indefinitely. Ofcourse it will burst some time and would cause pain at large till the correction takes place and then things would be normal!
    Though for sure we must try and counter it so as to minimise the pain , Education , the "buzz" word is the key! We have discussed Education in previous posts , so I leave it there!

    5) I would like to draw the role of Editors on this section. Rinku's post was a real nice one but I found one line as maligning "tricks of these brahmans and baniyas to malign our race in one way or others"!
    We must try and not write/think on these lines not only because we should be diplomatic but because this is an absolute waste of energy! Finger pointing , cribbing , blame game is no solution. And while being in this globalised world , we must not be very caste specific , Ofcourse we can do positive discrimination for our caste and which I guess every one does , we do positive discrimination among our siblings , parents , family , friends , then at caste level , then at village level , then at much bigger levels and then probably it ends at country level!
    Yes that is justified but this practice should not propogate negative discrimination for other caste/races.

    Also this brings forward that perhaps the Editor do not go through the post fully and with care!

    6) This leadership thing pops up again in our discussion , I would say I do not deny the importance and the positive aftereffects of a great leader but in the absense, let us think small. Let us be small social/cultural/financial entreprenuers ourselves , that would create engines of growth in our working areas. Think of ideas to help the villages , try and draw work plans in remote places!

    7) Use of Site : I reiterate that such social platforms can be levered greatly to produce mammoth project plans/resources , people from such diverse backgrounds / knowledge can be of great help in thinking things from all perspectives and of course can generate one hell of resources.
    The only thing that we need to do is to utilize things in proper way , a leadership , a credibility in what we think/plan ( Again I say that there ain't any need of a big master plan , a small initiative can be later turned into a big one )! Without taking names , I would say I am a part of a initiative that started off Orkut and people do have a feeling that Orkut is very less authentic than a paltform such as Jatland! We are at least making differences in lives of two dozen students , that is better than nothing , is not it ? We can do similar things in our villages , a collective effort from the people that have credibility , our senior members , our Admins is what we all need.
    And there are opportunities to substantiate the already going efforts of Jan Jagriti led by Navin. Being in position we find oursleves , we are expected not only to transfer resources by ourselves ( This is the place where people restrict their imagination and start straying and then loose it completely!) , We are engines to transfer resources , There is no dearth of resources to exploit , it is just that they should reach where they ought to be!
    A very small initiative by ourselves generated more than 50 k by our own contributions ( JL Support fund ) , Imagine if everyone of us does a fundraiser with the people that we associate personally / professionally/socially!
    Not only we can work for the actual social works , we can plan cultural /social upliftment , do campaigns , implement our ideas!

    PS: I am just citing financial examples to give a realistic view , we can do similar efforts in terms of getting human resources and other intellectual resources etc.

    =============

    That is all for today , happy to discuss personally / on forum. Please be free to criticise ,
    Critics are my best friends!
    ( Nindak niyare raakhiye , aangan kuti chavaaye , bin paani saabun bina , nirmal kade suhaaye! ).


    Regards,
    Anil

  12. #8
    Hello Anil let me clarify what I meant for forgetting and forgiving. There is a saying that you should not be that sweet that people drink you up nor than bitter that people spit you out. You need moderation.

    Our history of the last 800 years has been one of domination and slavery. We are today also the slaves of our environment with all the evils that continue to dominate us. All this has been possible because we never learnt from history. Those who do not learn from history commit the same mistakes, which their ancestors committed. What is required is first to conqueror the self, because most jat organizations are today dominated by people seeking office rather than service to the community. We are like the rajput kings who fought amongst themselves, while the mugals slowly divided and conquered them. We need a pan India jat movement and vision, the seeds of the revolution need to be sown now.

    What is really required is to set up a model with the best practices and standards and then replicate it on a larger scale. We are wallowing in ignorance and darkness as a community. Those who have seen the light now need to take it to our less fortunate brothers.

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  14. #9
    Upliftment of jats lies in education and awareness.It is the only remedy of the problem of backwardness. Let we be positive and acknowledge that education is spreading its roots though slowly. But then changes do not occur overnight.Let it take its own course and do not be pessimistic in the meantime. The question than arises as to what kind of education is required and Wether the present education system sufficient?.

    >Yes this education system has its own drawbacks.But i beg to differ from the statement that this education system is making us slaves.

    Why cant we get over the colonial hangover??

    We are no more being colonised by anyone and todays realities are different from the times of British rule.Equations have changed and we have to change our thinking accordingly.Only then will we be able to keep pace with this fast changing world.
    Political movement,education & awrenes are required if we wish to change our present condition. Theremust be some effective leaders to represent the community and its problems. ButI give more weightage to education.Education is the tool which can bring about more stabilising and long term positive changes. Acheivement of a well educated community will be half the battle won.


    Political representation should be goal oriented rather than be there just for sake of flaunting in the name of community. Letme make it more clear...we had leaders and perhaps still have them but they largely failed to bring about the desired changes. They ended up as being mere a show off of our false jat ego. Iam apologetic if anybody's inflated ego is hurt. But let be honest and acknowledge that our jat ego is at times so pronounced that we become blind to other points of views.


    In the end i will only say that we have no dearth of talent and will power. The world lies there before us to be conquered.Lets do it.
    Last edited by Samarkadian; October 22nd, 2008 at 09:10 PM. Reason: Grammatical and Phrasing

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by poonamkhokhar View Post

    The question than arises as to what kind of education is required and Wether the present education system sufficient?.

    >Yes this education system has its own drawbacks.But i beg to differ from the statement that this education system is making us slaves.

    Why cant we get over the colonial hangover??

    We are no more being colonised by anyone and todays realities are different from the times of British rule.Equations have changed and we have to change our thinking accordingly.Only then will we be able to keep pace with this fast changing world.
    Political movement,education & awrenes are required if we wish to change our present condition. Theremust be some effective leaders to represent the community and its problems. ButI give more weightage to education.Education is the tool which can bring about more stabilising and long term positive changes. Acheivement of a well educated community will be half the battle won.


    Political representation should be goal oriented rather than be there just for sake of flaunting in the name of community. Letme make it more clear...we had leaders and perhaps still have them but they largely failed to bring about the desired changes. They ended up as being mere a show off of our false jat ego. Iam apologetic if anybody's inflated ego is hurt. But let be honest and acknowledge that our jat ego is at times so pronounced that we become blind to other points of views.
    Poonam, present education system, if you take in the light of being literiate and possesion of a degree is partly successful but failed in providing desired direction to the society. Yes! it has produced the same things what once Lord Mclay had thought over.Failure of this system is significantly visible when you see the number of 'successful' degree holders ratio. Morever, education system should be capable to imbibe basic awareness about a citizen's role in country's development. Today any school going kid must be knowing about latest video games or next Harry Potter series but hardly have any idea about Panchtantra. A Jat or non-jat both have failed here, they may have degree of certain professional or simple education but they cant be said literate enough.What was Authentic Indian education system? All we read and study has its roots from British era. I would be glad if anyone can throw some light. Rabinder Nath Tagore's Shanti Niketan was a great move to produce aware citizens but the success of it has not been replicated anywhere.Though field is empty and virgin to explore to create such an institute from where future resposible citizen/leaders can be produced.It would require the like minded crazy people who wish to work full time for such a work.

    No!! We are not getting over colonial hangover. Everything even in daily chores is related with colonial hangover. World as a whole is turning in to one culture which is 'Western Culture'.Correct me If I'm wrong here. Civilization in the present times is not existing anymore.

    Political movement !! I would like to re-phrase it to the 'Mass Movement' but again question arises amind party politics scenario, do we really have such mass- leaders who tends to show such vision. ? Neither at National level nor at Regional one just in archives and that too filled with dust.

    Yes! when we talk of Jats, obvious thing come in mind is 'Sarv-khap' Panchyayats which are supposed to be oldest system of Jats.In Modern times, sad to say, this has been degraded to the base. They could have ignite the mass movement but leaders their seems to be from alien land.They would smoke tobacco of lakh's worth but wont reach at any conclusion. I can guess they all do have sheer desire to be recognised politically and this is hall mark of downfall.This Khap Panchayt system is alone capable to change things as they have their reach to roots but either they are illusioned or delusioned because reservation is the only issue they can maximamlly visionise.This indicated towards a brink where either they would be thrown from this oldest sangh or this system would loose the significance which has already started in last three or more decades.

    Yes! We HAD leaders like of Sir Chottu Ram and Ch Bansilal, Ch Sahib Singh Verma. Rest contemporary are merely politicians or party workers.I would not be agreed with your EGO thing of Jats. I would tag it insecurity shield in changing times.

    Being hopeful and pessimistic is a good virtue but sometime it may make one hopeless.

    Quote Originally Posted by anilsinghd View Post

    2) About the incident Rinku mentioned that the guy did not know his mother and grandmother gotras. This is what I call a curse(coule be worse in future?)on the educated section of our community. Loosing touch with the base is worse that can happen. We are the elite , the so called cream , If we forget our roots , neglect the responsibility we have , forget what we owe to our society at large , who else will? We all must appreciate that social responsibility is a duty , it should not be a leisure/time paas / low priority thing. It should be taken more seriously. Reminded of a quote from an IITian who was a topper some 15 years back and opted for social service : He said " The social sector needs INTELLIGNET people ".





    4) Samar's point of female foeticide , well mate , its a bubble (is not it ?), it will burst , though as with all bubbles it will pain! I have this wild interest of correlating everything with life , is not this something like a housing bubble we just saw go burst in US , the leverage bubble

    6) Let us be small social/cultural/financial entreprenuers ourselves , that would create engines of growth in our working areas. Think of ideas to help the villages , try and draw work plans in remote places!

    7) Use of Site : Without taking names , I would say I am a part of a initiative

    Anil,

    We are not elite yet. Eliteness doesnt come with ignorance at all. It comes with richness in every aspect.Social responsiblity!! yes! Rightly said, but how many of us really THINK that Bhagat Singh should be( should not be!) from our own home? How many Jat mothers do support this crazy idea? Social responsiblity is a full time career not even a job.Either one is in it or one is just pretending to be a social servant.

    Yes!! Social sector needs intelligent folks but you forget to mention one word Strong minded Intelligent people other wise Intelligent people tends to write good speeches and selling them online or so.Intelligent people who possess nerves of steel because moronic crowd would tend to easily belittle the efforts of intelligent folks initially.Simply intelligent people's intellect may find it useless to waste time over partly animals crowd of human.


    US financial has already bursted and my guess , to an extent beyond repair.
    More important example is their messed society.Here in terms of female foeticide, they have more than 51% single mothers. What does it indicate? A Developed culture or degraded one? What is the use of education which just talks of liberty but at every corner you are under scrutiny by CCTVs.

    Point 6 of your post really talk some sense about enterprenurship.May be you have some idea of three things you have mentioned: i.e

    Social

    Cultural

    Financial.

    I would really love to read any significant plan/vision you or anyone you have for above ENTERPRENEURSHIP term. If not, we can start it from here.

    Use of site: Yes Navin and you have taken a Herculian task in hand because you have conscience to comprehend about giving back. How many members have really supported you morally first. Navin bhai is living example of inspiration to all of us but how many JATs of this site who frequently sing the songs of Jat n blah blah have contributed in any capacity towards these noble causes. Most of the people wouldnt mind killing time on sensational thread but hardly on ground.Here , I would say that you can only improve or motivate people who wants to. Strength is the answer.Some is inherited, some of it would be gained as life's boat would keep on moving.
    Last edited by Samarkadian; October 31st, 2008 at 02:17 AM.
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

  16. #11
    If we discuss the drawbacks of our education system, there are many and believe me they are here to stay at least in the near future. The reason is that we ourselves promote it. I will cite some examples...many people feel it a matter of pride when their little children recite english rhymes rather than poems of any hindi poet. Look at the matrimonial ads and a phrase that you will generally find there is "convent educated".It is so silly..but is there. Do you think with such attitude we will be able to reform our education system?

    I have my doubts. The problem is not language or medium of instruction rather its the way of thinking. There are so many biases and prejudices in our society such as preference of science over arts, english over hindi, convent schools over govt. run schools and so on. What happens as a result of these prejudices is that the thing we are prejudiced against lags behind. Development when occurs should occur in all the aspects. It should take care of all and everything.

    Another disease in our education system is mindless reservations and quotas. Deserving candidates suffer as a result of it and become disillusioned and many undeserving and less meritorious students get the seats. There can be other ways of ensuring the percolation of education down to every strata of society instead of these reservations which have become mere instruments for political parties to garner votes. This much for education system.

    Corruption and degradation of values are infesting our society today. People have become more materialistic and individualistic in the present times. Most of them want to fulfill their own selfish ends rather than working for betterment of society. I will give my own example here...i hear of my grandfathers(i didnt see them) who were big landlords and worked for poor people,stood by them and helped them in every possible ways. They were the "pradhan" of village panchayat and did what the head of a panchayat should do. But today the scenario has completely changed and those altruistic motives are missing. Today i hear that most of the people fight the panchayat elections with the motive of misappropriation of funds that are given for village development. This is the extent to which our values have degraded and this is the extent to which corruption has spreaded in the system.

    If i am asked to come up with answers to these problems...i can only say that we should start at our own level. Let each one of us pledge to become a better human being, cling to our values and free our minds from narrow,mindless prejudices. And then it will become inconsequential whether we are following a western culture or an oriental culture. Good human beings can exist in any culture.
    Last edited by Samarkadian; October 31st, 2008 at 08:02 PM. Reason: Phrasing.

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  18. #12
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    Satisfying to see new faces each time when reading the thread!

    Poonam in other thread mentioned about little participation , but I am sure she will appreciate that the quality ain't missing. And some more time on the site can probably make her realize on the "why" of things!

    Meanwhile happy to see her problem and then moving towards solution approach which is very essential as dwelling around the problems with a negative mindset does not achieve anything!

    Also whole heartedly agreed with her Each one do little ! kind of approach to move towards a better society. That is for sure the bare minimum!

    Perhaps the "waht can we do more ? " would be answerd subsequently in the post of mine and/or in the course of discussion.


    Samar , what needs to be done on the education front has already been discussed by me in the first post of mine in the thread , I do not have to add anything to that , a creative approach to education is the way going forward.
    I kind of disagree with you when you are a bit harsh on the move to a "Western Culture". I would rather put it as the confluence of the cultures and now it comes to be seen who has the major influence ? If we are strong enough , we should be able to retain more of "ours" than adopt "theirs". Should not we ? ( Seems like it is in consonance with your Strong , steel nerved personality ).

    Good to see that word "Mass - Movement " from you , else I would have coined it. That is the "should be " way! Being my optimistic self and also understanding the reality that it ain't coming frm the political leaders , I would say it would come from the people! This won't be routine kind of , it would be different! The discontent in the "elite" and their disillusionment would lead it! Entreprenurial activities will pick up going forward , take my word ( yeah , that is not typical mathematician , but ! )

    You mentioned about insecurity , i add resistance to change as well , being a behaviourist , I would say it is difficult for the older section to change their thinking because they have been practising the same for ages now!

    I would not disagree with you when you said we are not elite , but rather say that my intent was hidden and probably deserved an explanation/characterisation of the elite I was referreing to ! You did it excellently ! Yo da man!
    Some time back I picked up this one liner ( I am not sure I r ead it somewhere or I created it ) : Ignorance is not lack of knowledge , it is the lack of culture. If you read my post again with this in hindsight you will realise we two converge , dont we ?!


    Vision/Ideas of the entrepreneurship in Social/Cultural/Financial sectors , well I have plans ( forged by the confluence of thoughts of self and a couple more like minded people ). I would wish to disclose them near the conclusion of the discussion , so as to gather new ideas as well from people! An initial line of thinking could be to mobilise all those willing people , lets discuss how ?

    A very simple suggestion would be to mobilise the members here itself to some real ground work and/or asking them to do the same with others. Each one if can others to be involved , we can form geat chains. There is no dearth of willingness , it is just that one has to inculcate enough enthusiasm. Navin's help would be the first step , I am trying my best to do that , it would in itself be a big project to get people to be assocaited with the cause. Yes , I know of the efforts of the past and their results , but then I also know this : " Karat karat abhyaas ke jadmati hot sujaan , rasri aavat jaat te , sil par parat nisaan! "

    Try , try and try again!

  19. #13
    [quote=anilsinghd;187217]Satisfying to see new faces each time when reading the thread!

    Poonam in other thread mentioned about little participation , but I am sure she will appreciate that the quality ain't missing. And some more time on the site can probably make her realize on the "why" of things!

    Meanwhile happy to see her problem and then moving towards solution approach which is very essential as dwelling around the problems with a negative mindset does not achieve anything!

    Also whole heartedly agreed with her Each one do little ! kind of approach to move towards a better society. That is for sure the bare minimum!

    Yes Anil i do appreciate that quality is not missing here in these threads. And i am on my way to know the "why" of things here. Anyways your analysis of the problems and quick jump onto the solutions is appreciable. Good to see someone who is ever ready to come up with new ideas and take plunge to implement them as well. I myself would like to come up with new ideas and solutions but after some time.

    As of now i will only dwell on a few points...in order to march in the right direction to bring difference to the society, the first step is understanding the problems that we face. We need to understand the "what" and "why" of the problems. We must try to find out the nature of the problems before us and their root cause. For this volunteers from different fields must come ahead and it would be good if they are led by people who are achievers in their own fields. When intellectuals and renowned people will club together a knowledge base will be created which is essential in chalking out plans for the future.

    After this comes the step of spreading awareness among the people which can be done by the volunteers. Majority of people are still living in villages and are not much aware about the changes taking place in the world/society. An informed public is a power in itself and so this spreading of awareness becomes very important. Various means can be employed for this like media, NGOs and grassroot level institutions such as village panchayats.

    After this comes mass mobilization about which Anil too has discussed. And mass mobilisation should be easy in a community like of jats which is still quiet united. Anil has emphasized that a movement of people is better than any political movement...very true but some kind of political leadership is essential and i will add that politics in itself is not a negative term. Some bad examples do not mean that the entire system is faulty. A political representation is essential because to attain some ends we need to depend upon the political machinery too. We simply cannot do away with it.

    In the end i would say that action speaks louder than words and so the only way to do something is only to do.

  20. #14
    Samar ji,
    #WHY the sons of soil are facing such a problem?
    -Issues: with the agricultural sector
    1)Decreasing Land Holdings that are not good enough for sustenance, leave aside generating wealth.
    2)Growing debt
    3) Poor Land reform policies, and the short sighted Debt Relief and waiver Policies of the government.
    -Issues: with the mindset
    1) Prefer to sell land and make quick money in the short run.
    2) An average person in a village does not think of an alternate source of income after the sale of land.
    3) Source of recreation for these nouveau rich in the villages - Liquor Stalls. (Even Prohibition in Haryana could not stop these from flourishing)
    -Issues: with our Politics. ( I have deliberately used the word-Politics and not "Political System")
    It would be utopia when it became by the people, of the people and for the people.

    Solution:
    1) You said it, UNITY, a unity of spirit, direction and vision, a unity of purpose, a unity of efforts, and most of all a UNITY that would transcend personal/materialistic gains. I guess we are all waiting for that tipping scale when a crisis would unite us. Otherwise UNITY is a woolly mammoth.

    2) Education: I agree with you. Education or lack of it does not impact our intentions and sense of purpose. People who had the sense of purpose have still reached where they wanted to be, may be later than sooner, but they have. It is not lack of education, but may be lack of involvement of "educated people" in the endevors for social, cultural, and economic upliftment that makes Vision for Jats a "Movement in awaiting".

    3) Integration of rural and urban economies. A case study of Punjab's Green Revolution or Gujrat's White revolution are the best examples of this. Also, many of the farmers in Punjab have diversified into processing besides producing fruits and vegetables. They are also supplying vegetables to the MNCs (e.g tomatoes to Hienz Ketchup, potatoes to Mcdonald, etc), etc etc...

    If I consider myself "son/ daughter of the soil", then I have to go back to my grass roots, where it all began, in the Villages. Thats why my emphasis was on our villages/ agriculture .Thank you

    Regards,


    Quote Originally Posted by Samarkadian View Post
    In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race. --- Ch. Chottu Ram.

    These lines from the legendary and visionary Jat which is signature line of a respected member , inspired me to start this thread. Many times while
    Thanks.
    Last edited by Samarkadian; November 16th, 2008 at 06:22 PM. Reason: Merging of new post in already posted one with footnote mentioned in new one.

  21. #15

    solutions

    1. Understand that there is problem, landholding is shrinking ( as posted eralier).
    2. There are large number of unemployed youths. We need to utilise them, provide them the necessary skills. Our political leaders or society should expose them to vocational training. Teach them English. Train them for the skills that we get them jobs like in retail, call centre ( not joking---- we can work hard to smoothen the Haryanavi accent):rock
    3. Educate our girls, that will improve the family and most importantly next generation
    4. We have to lend helping each other, use positive discrimination for the fellow Jats
    5. keep up our values i.e liberal attitude, honesty, hard working, simplicity ( if it is still left)
    6. Make concoius efforts to keep our youth to stay away from booze, drugs etc
    7. Lastly regarding Malika Sehrawat;;;;;; hats off to her, at least she is not pretending like others. She knows her job and confident and honest about it

  22. #16
    Man is a product of his environment but people who achieve greatness transcend their environment. It is always mind over matter as in the Indian philosophy, compared to matter over mind of the western culture. Today the domination of the western culture with its consumerist behavior is the root cause of evils that are retarding the cultural renaissance of our society. We have become weak and timid and mindless robots. Nothing moves us not even an incident like mumbai massacare.We has to control our environment and not be controlled by it. Because if you let circumstances control you, you sooner or later no longer have a mind of your own.

    To start a movement for the jats, the first step we need to take is to set up an organization in a structured way that could be the starting point. We could then follow the Plan do check action (PDCA) cycle to achieve our objectives. We need to put up a time frame and proper measurements for the progress of the organization. Otherwise we can keep indulging in armchair discussions, till the cows come home.

    I have seen young brilliant boys and girls with a vision and maybe they can plug into the experiences of people like us who are not so young. The idea in short is to set objectives and consistently meet those objectives, within a time frame. So who will bell the cat?

  23. #17
    Samar Bhai RamRam.

    After a long time a relevant and serious discussion in the forum.

    I could not agree any more with your thoughts. There are two prominent problem areas. First is education, as you have pointed out yourself. Having inherited a system designed by British to produce people with low calibre (intellectual assimilation and will power) we didn't do much to change. In fact, it has been effectively ruined. Thats the state of govt schools. Private ones are money minting factories. But there are institutions like J Krishnamurthy schools, Aurobindo Ashram, etc that aim to produce wholesome human beings and not just professionals. Unfortunately, DAV movement itself has lost the moral compass.
    The following article is for people who'd like to know exact ills of our education.

    The intellectual scene in Post-independence India:A speech of S. Gurumurthy given to IIT Chennai
    http://psenthilraja.wordpress.com/20...ndia/#more-135

    Second problem is leaderhip. One can only speculate what would have happened had Gandhi not asked Patel to forgo the post of PM for Nehru Or had Bose been alive. Barring two shades of brilliance, i.e. Shahstri and Rao, we have not had even mediocre leadership. Ch Charan Singh stayed for too short a time to make any long term effect. Indira lost whatever she earned because of Emergency. Today one just wonders whether we have reached the nadir or this abyss is deeper !

    We need leadership at every level, from family to panna to village to society. Political leadership is really bad.

    If Jats have to progress as a community, there is no short cut. Reservations may make short term sense or help some limited no of people, but can one community progress when this issue is pulling the whole country itself backwards ?

    Urgent need is to inculcate the sense of self-pride and citizenship. Either we stand together OR invite collective doom.




    Quote Originally Posted by pscil View Post
    Tarphu karma jus viranga taru kate mare na jaise
    Sadhan kare vichar heen mun, shubd hova na kaise

    Due to his karmas man becomes like a young warrior who lies bleeding to death on the battlefield. This reason for this is that the lower or baser mind concentrates only on material gratification, so why should it not lead to depression and pain.
    When a man is young he is like the seasonal river, which gushes with exuberance and makes a great noise only for it to dry up, like in old age, when the rains stop. The man who realizes this has known the permanent from the temporary.
    Management is all about going from facts to theory and never vice versa. It is like the Indian thought which is based on the inductive logic which goes from the particular to the general, unlike the western thought which is based on deductive logic in which you go from the general to the particular.

    The greatest reason for our slavery has been that our strength, compassion and love, which has led to building stable families and our deep philosophy, has also led to forgiving and forgetting very easily. We have never really punished the perpetuators of the most heinous crimes in our history. Our strength has thus become our weakness. Too much of misapplied goodness is counterproductive. One should first analyze, who he is applying his good intentions to.
    I do not know the key to success but I can tell you the key to failure and that is trying to please everyone.
    Parvir ji very noble and clear thoughts !

    When strengths become dogma, they become liability. In Mahabharat, repeatedly, Bhishm and Dronacharya failed to grow out of their own 'pratigyas' and we had the bloody war. Any of them could have called Dhritrashtr and Duryodhan's bluff, but civility and dharam came in the way. Our fore-fathers failed to realise the different nature of threat that Islam and British (Christianity) posed. They still played by rules, whereas the adversaries had no compunctions. But our ancestors still kept fighting and survived.

    We won't.
    Last edited by Samarkadian; December 7th, 2008 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Mistake of quoted name.Anil instead of Parvir ji.
    - In the ordinary course of nature thousands upon thousands are born every day, but he alone is truly born whose birth leads to the elevation of his race.

  24. #18
    Dear Sampuranji

    If we won't survive then we don't have the right to exist anyway. But if we have to survive what we need is self confidence, which comes only from setting up concrete and clear objectives and consistently meeting them. Time as usual is the important determinant what you can achieve today may not be possible tomorrow. Lets us also look at the unified theory of matter, now advocated by people like Stephen Hawkins but clearly illustrated by Yog Vasistha.
    Vasistha is an ancient scripture narrated by sage Vasistha to Rama. A unique and an extremely profound discourse, that provides innumerable insights and secrets to the inner world of consciousness. It covers all the topics that relate to the spiritual study of a seeker.
    This scripture is a must read for anyone trying to understand the concepts of consciousness, creation of the world, the multiple universes in this world, our perception of world, dissolution of the world and the liberation of this soul.
    Yoga Vasistha propounds that everything from the blade of grass to the universes is all but consciousness alone. There is nothing else but consciousness. It expounds the non-dual approach to this creation.
    Just as the blue sky is an optical illusion this entire world and the creation is but such an optical illusion. When the illusion ends in the mind, the world and its miseries too end. The self is the seer of all, the self is the perceiver of all and the self is the experiencer of all. And that self is only one. There is no two; there is no subject, seer and the object. It is all one.
    Another oft repeated verse in the text is that of Kakathaliya (coincidence). The story of how a crow alights on a coconut tree and that very moment the ripe coconut falls on the ground. The two events are apparently related, yet the crow never intended the coconut to fall nor did the coconut fall because the crow sat on the tree. The intellect mistakes the two events as related, though in reality they are not.
    All of creation is the play of consciousness. As an unenlightened person may have a desire for action, and then perceives himself doing action, the two are unrelated as the crow and the coconut. Consciousness is the actor, the action, the process and the witness of action.

  25. #19
    All Mediterranean religions are based on the concept of duality, since they emerge in an antagonistic setting and their philosophy is guided by this antagonism. Compare this to the Indian thought, which has developed in a more serene setting of the Indian environment. While the Mediterranean thoughts lead to duality and conflict, domination and conquest; the Indian thought leads to universal brotherhood; it is based on harmony not conflict. Let us examine the concept of these fundamentals in the Yog Vasistha and Being and nothingness of Jean Paul Sartre.
    We begin with the unified theory of matter, now advocated by people like Stephen Hawkins but clearly illustrated by Yog Vasistha. This scripture is a must read for anyone trying to understand the concepts of consciousness, creation of the world, the multiple universes in this world, our perception of world, dissolution of the world and the liberation of the human being.
    Yoga Vasistha propounds that everything from the blade of grass to the universe is all but consciousness alone. There is nothing else but consciousness. It expounds the non-dual approach to this creation.
    Just as the blue sky is an optical illusion this entire world and the creation is but such an optical illusion. When the illusion ends in the mind, the world and its miseries too end. The self is the seer of all, the self is the perceiver of all and the self is the experiencer of all. And that self is only one. There is no two; there is no subject, seer and the object. It is all one. This is completely opposite to the dualistic notion of Rene Descartes in which mind and body are treated as distinct. Cogito ergo sum (I Think; therefore I am)
    Another oft repeated verse in the text is that of Kakathaliya (coincidence). The story of how a crow alights on a coconut tree and that very moment the ripe coconut falls on the ground. The two events are apparently related, yet the crow never intended the coconut to fall nor did the coconut fall because the crow sat on the tree. The intellect mistakes the two events as related, though in reality they are not.
    All of creation is the play of consciousness. As an unenlightened person may have a desire for action, and then perceives himself doing action, the two are unrelated as the crow and the coconut. Consciousness is the actor, the action, the process and the witness of action.

    Sartre's existentialist understanding of what it is to be human can be summarized in his view that the “underlying motivation for action is to be found in the nature of consciousness which is a desire for being”. It is up to each agent to exercise his freedom in such a way that he does not lose sight of his existence as a facticity, as well as a free human being. In so doing, he will come to understand more about the original choice which his whole life represents, and thus about the values that are thereby projected. Such an understanding is only obtained through living this particular life and avoiding the pitfalls of strategies of self-deceit. This authentic option for human life represents the realization of a universal in the singularity of a human life. In other words the non duality of matter or the unified theory of matter.

  26. #20
    I am new to the forum (probably quite old, but have not been active). This is the first thread I have gone through. Several interesting view points, but I think the discussion has become too abstract. What vision are we aiming at: social, political or economic? Or an all encompassing one? Some members seem to be dismayed with cultural/social degeneration of our caste (because of 'western' education amongst other things) while some are more worried about the economic underdevelopment. My observation is that any form of economic development would lead to social changes. And not everyone would be happy with that (as can be observed here). The difference needs to be appreciated. It is a utopian thought to 'preserve' our great culture (through a different pattern of education or other such remedies suggested here), while also dealing with socio-economic problems like literacy, sex-ratio, dependence on agriculture, etc. I don't think it can be achieved- I don't think that it should be the priority anyways. The socio-economic problems are 'development' issues and if we take pragmatic steps to solve them (which I believe we should), there would be social changes that some people would not be happy with.

    We are talking about unity and mass movement, but to what aim? Even if I discount the sheer improbability of a mass movement, one has to think that a movement without an aim can spectacularly backfire. In Indian context, I can think of only 2 popular mass movements in the last century- one for freedom and one by JP, and both had clear aims. The latter actually did misfire eventually once emergency was removed and the new government turned out to be worse. Even a smaller movement has a great risk of providing cannon fodder, if one thinks of gujjar/naxal type movements. They start with lofty aims, but degenerate into sheer nonsense.

    In any case, I don't think the situation is too desperate to demand a revolution. There are several things that can be improved, there always would be. Fully agree with some of the points made on making education available to more people. Of course, there are problems in the 'education system', but clearly the bigger issue is that even that flawed system is not available to the masses. You may find several faults with the private schools, but at least the quality of education is much better than what's available to the masses. That's the reason why the more educationally oriented parents in towns like Rohtak, Bhiwani, Sonepat, etc. send their children to private schools. As atleast their kids have a chance to compete after that. What chance do kids from government schools have- there would always be some occasional success stories, but they would always be rare. Fortunately, our caste is itself realizing the importance of education, even people in villages want their kids to get good education, the problem is that they don't have access to it. To an extent, that takes away the importance of raising awareness on the issue (though for girl child I think it still can't be over emphasised), however the problem of quality education at affordable price is massive. I think if anyone takes any steps to remedy this, at howsoever small a level, it is an achievement that can not be over appreciated. There are several other things that can and should be done- like building roads, creating good alternatives to agriulture, providing good health care and sanitation, but none of these are specific to our caste, and have to be tackled at the level of the state. What we can and must do is to demand more from our elected representatives, and vote for the best person (or the less worse one).

    One issue that is definitely specific to our caste is the sex ratio, something we should all be ashamed of. The extent to which the want of a male child in our society goes is obnoxious. I have seen it personally, amongst all sorts of people, the urban as well as the rural, the educated as well as the illiterate. We must oppose it, whereever we see it.

    And lastly, for god's sake, let's not ask for reservations. It would do no good to us, make us weaker (imagine a lion that doesn't have to hunt and is fed on dead chicken) and would be a blot on our society.

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