Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 153

Thread: Again a Gotra-Marriage Row!!

  1. #61

    Time to Wake Up....

    Dear All,

    Whenever an incident like this takes place, as a JAT (hopefully considering myself educated too and having little knowledge of our history and culture), I can’t help it but I have extreme conflicting thoughts, each one of them right in their own way. One thought is obviously that, that no one has the right to take away a life like this, whatever the provocation. The other conflicting thought in a liberal me is that even after trying to give every logical reason, I can’t agree with the same gotra marriage. No, whatever the circumstances, same gotra marriage cannot not be accepted. Why? Because that’s our belief and beliefs don’t need the stamp of approval by anyone other than the elders of the community and our past history. Each community follows their customs and traditions and so do we. We don’t question others and don’t give them the right to question ours.

    Ignorance of such traditions by the next generation can’t be used as an excuse to indulge in same gotra marriage, even unknowingly. Communities elsewhere in the world pride themselves in their exclusive traditions. Why should we be apologetic? Let those communities who marry with in their gotra do so. When we have no problem in that, why should they question our beliefs? Tomorrow, if the Supreme Court rules that there is nothing wrong in same gotra marriage, do you expect JATS to say “Thank you, lordship, we will change our traditions and culture”. I think there will be a revolt.

    The next question is how to deal with exceptions? My personal view is no different than other worthy members. The boy and girl could have been thrown out of the village. The parents too should be left alone. This is not the last time this has happened. These incidents are unfortunate and should not have happened in the first place.

    My fear is different. The communities that have traditionally been always against us have already started calling us ‘Taliban’. Their game plan is simple. JATS have already been divided by them into two nations. They have also started buying our lands. Now they want to term us Taliban and may be ban us from these lands. It is high time JAT politicians show some guts and announce it loud and clear that this is our tradition. Failing to do so and any delay in showing a united front will lead to incalculable harm to us. That day is not far off when there will be a turmoil in society. Ar bhai, jis din JAT chhidd gya, te RAM bhi beech mein na aawe… Ar manne issa laage se ak JAT ke chhidden ke din aan ne hore sein…

    Best regards,

    JS Malik
    JAT BALWAN, JAI BHAGWAN

    (Ein Volk - Ein Reich - Ein Fuhrer)

  2. #62
    Not to speak of jats but the entire hindu community belive that sagothra mariage is the marriage in the same family.probably, no body knows, how was it started and why was it started but eventually, it has been transformed into a family prestige issue. So, in the family’s name, its costs everything, your life too, coz in our hindu families being dead is better than being disgraced.therefore, honor killings and brutal violence are the results of the harm done to the so called izzat.I,personaly believe that,Violence or homicide of any sort is illegal and inhuman. But simultaneously, I disagree that this practice of sagothra prohibition stands merely on old traditions. Its not customary because apart from superstitions we have some scientific reasons as well, enough to give a strong stand to our traditional values in the modern market. Same gothra people are genetically related to one another (since they once belonged to the same lineage).The consummation of such kind of marriages in same lineage intend to distort the progenial genetics. Very distant related marriages( sixth or seventh generation ) may not show a considerable genetic distortion but it will not breed a refined and quality progeny too.This is because they have a common ancestor from whom they received their genes and therefore have a chance of carrying the same harmful, faulty recessive gene copies. The main concern is the possibility that a child will inherit two identical copies of a faulty gene containing a recessive mutation, resulting in a genetic condition.
    So nitin, don’t have a shallow look on our traditional values and practices.Its not about restraining and reacting.Its about right and wrong. I agree that it’s a matter of choice but when we make wrong choices our parents intend to rectify them. The killings involved are undoubtly exploitation to humanity. This violence should be prohibited either by laws or revolutions but getting changed into some other caste or comparing jats with talibans doesnt make good sense. It is not a solution but a sheer adamance to stand against something whether its gud or bad. Because if you think it’s a matter of choice then honor killing may be their choice.So, you are bringing choice against choice.Hence nitin, You are just complicating the issue rather than solving it.And one more thing there is no ground to have jats compared with talibans as jats have always been very liberal and active in any revolution .You had better sense the matter deeply before you project your views

  3. #63
    very good Neha. in this thread ,earlier i also mentioned that there are scintific reasons behind this and you elobrated that perfactely.jats are most libarel community in this world. and the people who are calling us taalibani are old eanemy of our society.col. jagmohanji ne sahi baat pakadi hey.the media and govt contoled by thease jat ke dushman.
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

  4. #64
    Thanks Richa for expressing your concern and support.

    Vijay bhaisahab, aapne bahut hee manjhi hui aur sahi baat kahi hai, jab apne par aati hai tab hee ahesaas hota hai and thanks for sharing the updates.

    Rakesh - I wonder jaato ne jaan lene ka kanoon kab banaya. aazadi aur itihaas ke jitne bhi kisse hain, bahut debatable hai aur usme sab jaatiyo ka loha maana jaata tha. hume aaj mein rehena chahiye.

    rajesh - chaliye aapne itna to maana ki jaan lena bahut galat tha. Aur agar kutch galat hai to uska sudhar badi galti se nahi ho sakta. Samaaj ka banttadhar, unn bacho ne itna nahi kiya jitna samaj ke thekedaaro ne kiya. Jo apne gair kanooni kanoon khud banate hain, shayad unhi ko hee talibaan kehete hain.

    Jagmohan Sir - no one is questioning the matter of same gotra here but issue here is the heinous manner in which our community addressed the so called cultural offence. And I am sorry but I was not able to understand the point you were trying to make in your last para. I would also like to mention that contrasting such heinous actions with talibanism is just to address the disrespect towards humanity. it is purely symbolic.

    Neha - Thanks for sharing the info in your first para, but that is out of the scope of discussion. It is not about justification of gotra or non gotra marriage, it is about punishing the cultural culprits through extreme measures, in talibanic ways. In some other genetic forum i would love to express my opinions on the genetic mixing and evolution. Your second para is illogically distasteful. You mean to say that if i make a choice to harm others then I am justified?

    Ravinder - Just want to say that jats are not liberal, on the contrary we are one of the most conservative society. These honor killings clearly demonstrate the fact. Just by having some blind belief, doesnt not mean that it is correct. And I am not trying to change the belief here, but to not to insult jats and humanity in the name of culture.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by nitindev View Post
    Thanks Richa for expressing your concern and support.

    Vijay bhaisahab, aapne bahut hee manjhi hui aur sahi baat kahi hai, jab apne par aati hai tab hee ahesaas hota hai and thanks for sharing the updates.

    Rakesh - I wonder jaato ne jaan lene ka kanoon kab banaya. aazadi aur itihaas ke jitne bhi kisse hain, bahut debatable hai aur usme sab jaatiyo ka loha maana jaata tha. hume aaj mein rehena chahiye.

    rajesh - chaliye aapne itna to maana ki jaan lena bahut galat tha. Aur agar kutch galat hai to uska sudhar badi galti se nahi ho sakta. Samaaj ka banttadhar, unn bacho ne itna nahi kiya jitna samaj ke thekedaaro ne kiya. Jo apne gair kanooni kanoon khud banate hain, shayad unhi ko hee talibaan kehete hain.

    Jagmohan Sir - no one is questioning the matter of same gotra here but issue here is the heinous manner in which our community addressed the so called cultural offence. And I am sorry but I was not able to understand the point you were trying to make in your last para. I would also like to mention that contrasting such heinous actions with talibanism is just to address the disrespect towards humanity. it is purely symbolic.

    Neha - Thanks for sharing the info in your first para, but that is out of the scope of discussion. It is not about justification of gotra or non gotra marriage, it is about punishing the cultural culprits through extreme measures, in talibanic ways. In some other genetic forum i would love to express my opinions on the genetic mixing and evolution. Your second para is illogically distasteful. You mean to say that if i make a choice to harm others then I am justified?

    Ravinder - Just want to say that jats are not liberal, on the contrary we are one of the most conservative society. These honor killings clearly demonstrate the fact. Just by having some blind belief, doesnt not mean that it is correct. And I am not trying to change the belief here, but to not to insult jats and humanity in the name of culture.
    Dear Nitin
    I don't know why are you so restless.
    Do you know whole history of your village?
    Do you know something about brotherhood of gotras?
    Do you know why and when this rule was made?
    Do you know anything about jats?
    Be liberal and marry your cousin or let your sister do that .
    Some system was made and it was not on blind faith it got some reasons behind it. Every girl and boy of same village and same gotra are brother and sisters. Not even the girls of our mother's gotra is our sister but girls from our grandmother's gotra is also our sister. This is our culture.
    We are not muslims we are not christians.
    Do you know what is the meaning of advanced?
    Learn advanced techniques and do something better for society . How can you say that this all traditions are bad?
    Have you done anything for your country? society? Humankind?
    We are not saying that we don't want to get educated. We are getting educated. We are improving our shortcomings. But that doesn't give us any right to sleep with our sisters.
    If that is advancement then we congratulate you for being advanced. And we aare very happy that we are not that advanced
    Dream is not what you see while sleeping. Dream is that which won't let you sleep

  6. #66
    This is exactly what Richa tried to point out earlier in her response, that people over here tend to sway away from topic and give it a different direction, egoistic one. you are inviting me to get into a personal war of words with you based on your personal statements towards me, but I really dont have the time to waste on non-productive discussions here. If you can't stick to the scope of the discussion here then please feel free to start a new thread.
    Last edited by nitindev; July 25th, 2009 at 04:53 PM.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by rakeshsehrawat View Post
    Dear Nitin
    I don't know why are you so restless.
    Do you know whole history of your village?
    Do you know something about brotherhood of gotras?
    Do you know why and when this rule was made?
    Do you know anything about jats?
    Be liberal and marry your cousin or let your sister do that .
    Some system was made and it was not on blind faith it got some reasons behind it. Every girl and boy of same village and same gotra are brother and sisters. Not even the girls of our mother's gotra is our sister but girls from our grandmother's gotra is also our sister. This is our culture.
    We are not muslims we are not christians.
    Do you know what is the meaning of advanced?
    Learn advanced techniques and do something better for society . How can you say that this all traditions are bad?
    Have you done anything for your country? society? Humankind?
    We are not saying that we don't want to get educated. We are getting educated. We are improving our shortcomings. But that doesn't give us any right to sleep with our sisters.
    If that is advancement then we congratulate you for being advanced. And we aare very happy that we are not that advanced
    u r deviating from the topic mate. nitin is not in favour of same gotra marriage. he is just raising his concern against the killing. its a harsh punishment and non justifiable. hum kab keh rahe hai ki same gotra main marriage honi chahiye ya apni cousins k sath honi chahiye.
    but tell me if if it was ur brother or sister killed by these khaap punishments, what wud ur reaction b? would u still b justifying them? nahi na....bas baat yahi khatam ho jaati hai

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by arvind1069 View Post
    u r deviating from the topic mate. nitin is not in favour of same gotra marriage. he is just raising his concern against the killing. its a harsh punishment and non justifiable. hum kab keh rahe hai ki same gotra main marriage honi chahiye ya apni cousins k sath honi chahiye.
    but tell me if if it was ur brother or sister killed by these khaap punishments, what wud ur reaction b? would u still b justifying them? nahi na....bas baat yahi khatam ho jaati hai
    If My brother or sister had done that i would have killed him/her with my own hands.
    Dream is not what you see while sleeping. Dream is that which won't let you sleep

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by rakeshsehrawat View Post
    If My brother or sister had done that i would have killed him/her with my own hands.
    so u mean to say that KILLING IS THE APPROPRIATE PUNISHMENT FOR MARRYING IN SAME GOTRA?
    OR SOME OTHER FORM OF PUNISHMENT IS FINE?

  10. #70
    I personally think that..this matter should have been left to their families themselve.
    Their families could have handled it the way they want.
    They also have the equal knowledge of society as anybody has & they have the right also.
    FIGHT FOR A BRIGHTER INDIA

  11. #71
    i hope u're never tested to take back ur words.
    Quote Originally Posted by rakeshsehrawat View Post
    If My brother or sister had done that i would have killed him/her with my own hands.
    Of all the things that tax a man's patience, there's nothing to compare with a stuck zipper.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by rakeshsehrawat View Post
    If My brother or sister had done that i would have killed him/her with my own hands.
    Would you then drink their blood?
    Hey if you kill them, you might as well use the meat to make tikkas.
    Dude, get a grip on your hate. You sound like a psychopath.
    Last edited by sidchhikara; July 26th, 2009 at 01:52 AM.

  13. #73
    Jaago brother. Kaun si sadi mein jee rahe ho. Dunia bahut aage pahuch chuki hai, aur hum log abhi bhi puraane ghise pite kabile wale riri rivajon mein uljhe hue haain. Apne aaspas najar dodao aur dekho dunia kahan hai. Do tarah se sukhi reh sakte ho ya to dunia ko apne tarike se chalo ya apne aap ko dunia ke tarike se mold kar lo. Pehle wala kaam impossible hai to dusra tarika dopt kar lo. Come onnnn. Jagooooooooooooooooooooo.
    Sandeep Nain,\nLecturer,\nAsia Pacific Institute Of Information Technology,\nPanipat

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by jagmohan View Post
    Tomorrow, if the Supreme Court rules that there is nothing wrong in same gotra marriage, do you expect JATS to say “Thank you, lordship, we will change our traditions and culture”. I think there will be a revolt.
    Jagmohan Ji,

    I think its already there. SC finds nothing wrong in same gotra marriage too.

    Killing is not the solution. These are social norms and a person violating must be cut apart socially and not physically. Also we need panchayat's to be held time to time and come up with concrete realisation as to what needs to carry on forward and what needs to be shed off or made optional in terms of these social norms. It is hard to obey all of the rules that we had in past and so society needs timely overhaulling.

    I found Politicians talking only for votes and nobody has been come out with strong words. Though I heard Deepender talking of understanding the social norms but we need peacetime efforts to raise such concerns. We can understand that they dont want themselves to be read wrong and loose votes but I think peacetime state sponsored panchayats under legal supervision could have made them hero in society. They should try this.

    According to me ... the following should be covered by law either by making JAT act for haryana or so....

    Must
    1) Cant marry same gotr
    2) Cant marry mother's gotr
    3) Cant marry in the same village

    These should be covered by law for we Jats. Duniya to humari aachi cheejen apna rahi hai ... hum apni aachi rivajon ko hi khone par amada hein. Like one have told that in UK first cousin marriages among muslims have been discouraged due to increase in retardation cases.

    Optional
    4) Shouldnt marry the other gotr residing in the same village if there is some bhai chara in that village among those gotra's. Like Kapil have said how to make it clear whether bhaichara is there or not .... needs discussion ....

    Also if some bhaichara was there and they marry ... then the couple should leave the village and not the parents.

    It is going harder and harder to follow these bhaichara things ... e.g. Loharehdi, jhesorkhedi ... have bhaichara with Kharhar ... they cant marry in kharhar but can in other rahtee's .... they cant marry in Deeghal but can marry in other ahlawats .... similarly man, sehwag, deshwal, dalal ....

    So social norms should be relaxed to make them more attractive to follow and not too much strong that one start hating them.

    Ek taraf to hum bihar se leke aa rahe hein ... doosri taraf hum in bhaicharon mein phanse hue hein ... wa kum te kum jatni to se ...

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by rakeshsehrawat View Post
    If My brother or sister had done that i would have killed him/her with my own hands.
    wah wah..kyaa khoob kahi. maan gaye mughal-e-aazam. kasuuti ae baat kah di tanne :tamatar

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by vpannu View Post
    wah wah..kyaa khoob kahi. Maan gaye mughal-e-aazam. Kasuuti ae baat kah di tanne :tamatar

    lol..........

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by jitendershooda View Post
    Jagmohan Ji,

    I think its already there. SC finds nothing wrong in same gotra marriage too.

    Killing is not the solution. These are social norms and a person violating must be cut apart socially and not physically. Also we need panchayat's to be held time to time and come up with concrete realisation as to what needs to carry on forward and what needs to be shed off or made optional in terms of these social norms. It is hard to obey all of the rules that we had in past and so society needs timely overhaulling.

    I found Politicians talking only for votes and nobody has been come out with strong words. Though I heard Deepender talking of understanding the social norms but we need peacetime efforts to raise such concerns. We can understand that they dont want themselves to be read wrong and loose votes but I think peacetime state sponsored panchayats under legal supervision could have made them hero in society. They should try this.

    According to me ... the following should be covered by law either by making JAT act for haryana or so....

    Must
    1) Cant marry same gotr
    2) Cant marry mother's gotr
    3) Cant marry in the same village

    These should be covered by law for we Jats. Duniya to humari aachi cheejen apna rahi hai ... hum apni aachi rivajon ko hi khone par amada hein. Like one have told that in UK first cousin marriages among muslims have been discouraged due to increase in retardation cases.

    Optional
    4) Shouldnt marry the other gotr residing in the same village if there is some bhai chara in that village among those gotra's. Like Kapil have said how to make it clear whether bhaichara is there or not .... needs discussion ....

    Also if some bhaichara was there and they marry ... then the couple should leave the village and not the parents.

    It is going harder and harder to follow these bhaichara things ... e.g. Loharehdi, jhesorkhedi ... have bhaichara with Kharhar ... they cant marry in kharhar but can in other rahtee's .... they cant marry in Deeghal but can marry in other ahlawats .... similarly man, sehwag, deshwal, dalal ....

    So social norms should be relaxed to make them more attractive to follow and not too much strong that one start hating them.

    Ek taraf to hum bihar se leke aa rahe hein ... doosri taraf hum in bhaicharon mein phanse hue hein ... wa kum te kum jatni to se ...
    i agree with u. i think the 4th point should not be there in jat act, not even optional. ajkal ladki milna itna kathin ho gaya hai, to is bhaichaare wale rule ko relax kar dena chahiye. aur is rule k kaaran kisi ke personal rights ki bali nahi deni chahiye. yaar agar kisi ko kisi se pyaar ho jaaye aur vo sirf isliye shaadi na kar payen ki unke gotra main so called "bhaichara' hai, to aap hi aochiye unke upar kitni buri beetegi. aur bhaichaare wala kanoon sirf samajik hai, usme blood purity par b koi asar nahi parta, to isliye is rule ko to khatam ki kar dena chahiye. baki rule 1,2,3 theek hai
    so let these rules be simple and easy to follow.

  18. #78

    The Reactionary par Excellence

    The views expressed by Jat "intellectuals" in defence of the endogamy is an eye opener for they certainly would not be seen the same as by the Jats of Rajasthan (there is no khap system there) or MP or even Gujrat. This makes Jats of Haryana (esp. in the periphery of Delhi) a particular exclusive group that follows certain norms of exogamy. Their definition of brother and sister is far far extensive than the sociological kinship definition which stops at the first order cousins.
    Territorial brotherhood and blood relations defined in terms of territoriality makes these particular set of Jats already an exclusive group that is vulnerable to some features which reveal endogamous origins of this kind of exogamy. One simple evidence is the poor diversity index of Jat gotras in these regions. This itself points at the crises of territorial and blood endogamy and exogamy.
    The question here is not to bring down somebody's honour at this instance. The real issue is that how this localised community can outward orient oneself so that this situation can be addressed.
    So far as the Talibanisation is concerned. The fact originates from the lot of material resources devoted to muscle power and there by coercing the organs of community to follow the diktats. The time is not far when there is going to be internal unrest over these issues as the death at one instance might symbolise the establishment of an order, at the same brings revulsion into innovating a challenge against the aggression over the freedom of the rest of the others.
    Last edited by Ambijat; July 28th, 2009 at 11:29 AM.
    Keep a bigger heart than than what you had yesterday!

  19. #79

    Again a Gotra-Marriage Row!

    1. Yes there is need for awareness about marriage matters. Even our villagelife is become individualistic. Social interaction is on the decline. The village republics of yester years are in a dillema. The official Panchayts have only the assigned concerns i.e.activities under the law. The traditional Panchayats though not extinct, are in limbo in most places. They get activated only in times of a social crisis, especially concerning matrimony.
    2. As far as socially unacceptable actions are concerned ,it is the traditional Panchayat which should decide. In case of disagrement the higher level of panchayat (sarvakhap) should decide. Divorce is not the ideal solution. Change of place of residence is the least tricky solution. As long as the villages are not fragmented and made part of city life the Bhaichara norms would have to be followed. People not living in villages will not be able to appreciate the situation.The gap between the jats and the rest of the world shall remain till the former live in villages seeking a harmonious life governed by kinship norms. Otherwise it would be worse than death.
    3. Other issues are not so crucial for the day to day life in a village as these touch individuals. Matrimony and land alienation are the two issues which touch village life vitally. The Khap panchayats have to struggle hard indeed.
    s.s.rana

  20. #80
    Sangwan sahab , jo log same gotra mea shadi ki tarafdari kar rahe hea ya media is cheese ko uchal rahi hei , unhe gotra system ka pata hi nahi hea . hamarea gaon me kahavat hea dunia me 1.5 biradari hea ak JAT or 1/2 brahman , baki ka koi hisab nahi .

    mea jat land ke madham se sab jats ko bolna chahta hun ki is genetics difference se hi hum jats sab se alag he . hamari antamology sareshte hi . jis prakar ak hi prakar ke bar bar beez ropne se uski growth kharab hoti hea , usi prakr humen anamology par bhi lagu hoti hea .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •