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Thread: Khap Panchayat and Indian Judicial System

  1. #61

    A few questions to begin with....

    Respected members,
    Pardon my ignorance, however I failed to comprehend the Khap Panchayats vis-a-vis the Indian Judicial System. I have a few queries-

    1) Is there a way to ensure that the khap passes unbiased decisions?
    2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?
    3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?
    4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?
    5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?
    6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?......

    Regards
    Last edited by annch; August 19th, 2009 at 03:33 AM.

  2. #62
    Ravi ji,
    What is a "jat law"? the law of men and muscle?
    Regards
    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
    This is exactly the question- whose law shall prevail- British law, or Jat law?

  3. #63

    A case for the Khap!!!

    I would like to present a case to the members, and invite their views.
    Case:
    There are three brothers in a joint family.All married and with sons and daughters. The means of livelihood- Agriculture.
    The second brother has one son who is 5 years old. This brother passes away. The wife and son are mistreated by the rest of the family. The wife's family is unable to bear it, and takes her and her son to stay with them.
    Years pass by. The remaining two brothers divide the property between themselves.
    The wife of the second brother returns with her 16 year old son and asks for share of her husband in the property. The two brothers refuse to give her the share, saying that she gave up her and her son's right when she left the husbands' family for her own family.
    The wife goes to the Khap Panchayat for justice.

    Questions for the members:

    1) Would Khap handle this case?
    2) What do you think may be the decision of the Khap Panchayat? Whom does it favor?

    Regards
    Last edited by annch; August 19th, 2009 at 08:30 AM.

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
    Todd's work was to glorify the Rajputs, and in that context you need to rethink your approach and conclusions.

    Towards glorifying them he negated Jat History and appropriated it to the Rajputs.
    Ravi Ji,

    We question Bhim Singh Dahiya, Todd and Hawa Singh Sangwan Ji. So this way we nearly decline each theory about jat history .... where to start believing, am confused.

    If nothing is ok about we jats then why we always use to mention some book or other in history section.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ARVINDJANGU View Post
    मैंने चौधरी साहब की शादी के बारे में लिखा था जो के डिलीट कर दिया गया | शायद किसी mod को ये बात अखर गई हो | मैं सिर्फ इतना बताना चाहता था की सिरसा की तरफ के बागडी जाटों में अपने गाँव में शादी करने का रिवाज हैं व बागड़ी जाटों में खाप प्रणाली नहीं हैं जबकि हमारे देशवाली जाटों में खाप प्रणाली होती हैं | शादी के वक़्त हमे इन खापों के गाँव भाईचारे के तहत छोड़ने होते हैं | चौधरी साहब का खाप प्रणाली का विरोध लाजमी हैं , उनकी तरफ खुद के गाँव में ही शादी पर कोई ऐतराज नहीं होता और न ही उनकी तरफ खाप प्रणाली हैं |
    It is also evident from the replies of members on this forum itself. Where some members who are not from this area even criticised the basics followed by other area people.

    I also feel that a person view point is largely influenced by his family/locality followings. It is obvious that if someone belongs to a village where they can marry in same village will favour that and others not. Its human behaviour.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by anjoo View Post
    The wife goes to the Khap Panchayat for justice.

    Questions for the members:

    1) Would Khap handle this case?
    2) What do you think may be the decision of the Khap Panchayat? Whom does it favor?

    Regards
    My views
    1) Yes, Khap will handle this case. You have mentioned that wife goes to khap panchayat for justice, then I feel they will definatly respond.

    2) Decision of the khap panchayat would be to provide jameen and haq to the boy. Panchayat would favour Wife and her boy.

    Now I have seen many cases where individuals dont obey panchayats and they move to court. In this case too this will happen. But interesting thing is that in this case perhaps khap panchayats will not give a Samajik bahishkar to the culprits.

  7. #67
    Could you please try to answer the same questions with respect to present judiciary system in India leaving behind panchayats/khaps.

    Quote Originally Posted by anjoo View Post
    Respected members,
    Pardon my ignorance, however I failed to comprehend the Khap Panchayats vis-a-vis the Indian Judicial System. I have a few queries-

    1) Is there a way to ensure that the khap passes unbiased decisions?
    - I feel that this all is depreciating with the depreciation of human values and with no rights to khaps/panchayats. You cant say that panchayats decisions are always unbiased but in majority they are.

    2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?
    - Its by majority and by people of both parties. I have seen that panchayats mostly take decisions in-between right and wrong. They are more right but not precisely. Beech-bachav ka rasta dekh ke nirnaya hota hai. At first look it seems wrong but if one see in long run then its good.
    a) The parties have saved their transportation, advocate fees, lots of photocopies etc etc.
    b) Also they didnt get bitter relations as much they will get during police-court proceedings.
    c) In court and police both parties leave the original matters behind and run with false accuses and then go to any heights to prove them.
    d) But in case of panchayats everything is visible and its fact that these panchayats have few such nice and sage guys that you will not find that much wisery in judges too.

    3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?
    - I feel that in present day the panchayats are bodies with no hands and only they are at receiving end. I have seen few panchayats where any of the party (mostly the culprits) didnt obeyed the decision and they have gone to court as they knew the proceedings of courts and loopholes available. Instead in panchayats there is lot of be-ijjati for the worng doer in front of their own people. Instead in courts the culprit and influencial person can swing things.

    4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?
    - There is a hierarchy for the panchayats too. Initial village level, then 4 gaama - bahra ki panchayat, then khap panchayat and then kae khap panchayat and then sarv khap panchayat.

    5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?
    -This needs to be addressed.

    6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?......
    -Here I wish to ask a question in response ... Have you any evidence where the khap have issued a fatwa for KILLING? I have heard that they never did so, if the individual family is taking some step then should we put that too on shoulders of KHAP panchayat?

    Haan we may disagree with their decisions of forcing the guy-girl (couple) to be bro-sister after marriage but putting killing blaim is injustice to them.

    Now what is their achievements in recent years -
    a) Also many a land related and hindu marriage act issues in Haryana are resolved by panchayats later on when both the parties have been fed up with the court proceedings and costs involved. A land case of one of my known one was resolved by force and panchayat after 33 years of court proceedings and all wins. (1972-2003).

    b) Also you can find how much marriages have been re-settled by courts since HMA. Delhi police and others are now taking help of legal-panchayats to solve these out. As with a single spark in between relations both parties use such blames on each other that their marriage become impossible to re-sume. Girls will file dowry case and other false allegations and so is boys side who will put character blame over the gal. Advocates will enjoy and both parties will be the loosers for ever. But many a cases have been daily resolved by panchayats .... beshak unke decisions beech-bachav ke rahete hon aur kisi ek party ko thoda bahut samjhota karna padta ho but still they enjoy it in long run.

    c) Kae jegah salon ki parivarik-dushmaniyan jinmein kae kae jane ja chuki hein dono side se ... court-police-jail se tang aake panchayaton mein faisle hue hein ... that too recently.

    Regards
    Overall this system was indeed a good system and needs to be carried forward but in present scenerio needs lots of improvements with some legal put also.

    I would say Anjoo's questions have substance and I responded only to defend the fact that these panchayats are for good and we shouldnt portray them as villians. Instead we can improve them every day and they can prove (are proving) load sharers for Indian judicial system which is having very less efficiency with so much backlog and loopholes.
    Last edited by jitendershooda; August 19th, 2009 at 01:07 PM. Reason: Grammatical

  8. #68

    Great Contribution To the POST!!

    I was just want this kind of Contribution. And I Like the way Hooda Sahab Gave Answer to Anju's Questions.

    I find one question unanswered.
    Q. 5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?

    This is all most ZERO. And reason is that women are not suitable for that kind of situations. Because situation is always tense in these kind of panchayats. there are many cases when the village put PUNCHs in hostage.And I dont think that this is neccessary to women get any representation in Khap Panchayat. This is not the case that Man cant Handle Woman's Related case. if needed then woman can also be there. But decisions are taken as whole society,human being and natural law. Not the male, female and powerful or poor discrimination are there .

    And the issue of Biasing and all are not there in Panchayats. As Judicial System is totaly based on Witness,Presentation and Rule Book. But Panchyat is About a solution to a problem and a Rightly said in earlier replies, EK BICH KA RASTA FOR ALL PARTIES. Not like Judicial system that gives a Punitive action for one. Panchayats gives Good for all verdict. Punch are having much load on their shoulders for right decision. they do a lot of discussion and then pass the decision.

    Some time Panchayats also do some mistake but there is always a method to rectify by taking Bigger Panchayat or re-assembling at different time. The Governments or these so Called Judges - Made our this system in such a bad shape that now Panchayat are non existence.

    Judicial System is based on Individualilsm and Privatism. But Panchayats are for Socialistic view which is best suits for longer run.
    Last edited by dskadyan; August 19th, 2009 at 01:38 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by anjoo View Post
    Ravi ji,
    What is a "jat law"? the law of men and muscle?
    Regards
    I have moved my response and further discussion to the History section;


    http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?t=28276


    Much matter overlaps.

    Here we are trying to discuss the current situation. Detailed Historical aspect should be in History section.

    Please try and post in relevant sections

    Thank you all for the patience


    Ravi Chaudhary

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by jitendershooda View Post
    Ravi Ji,

    We question Bhim Singh Dahiya, Todd and Hawa Singh Sangwan Ji. So this way we nearly decline each theory about jat history .... where to start believing, am confused.

    If nothing is ok about we jats then why we always use to mention some book or other in history section.
    Jitender

    History is not a perfect science.

    We still need to study it, to guide out present and future.

    We cannot study something without a spirit of enquiry and questioning.

    Let us keep tryiing



    Ravi

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by anjoo View Post
    Respected members,
    Pardon my ignorance, however I failed to comprehend the Khap Panchayats vis-a-vis the Indian Judicial System. I have a few queries-

    1) Is there a way to ensure that the khap passes unbiased decisions?
    2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?
    3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?
    4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?
    5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayats?
    6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?......

    Regards

    Jitender Hooda Sahib has given some very insightful explanations. I agree with him.

    Some more thoughts:


    1) Is there a way to ensure that the Khap passes unbiased decisions?

    Response: No there is no way to know that the decision is not biased. That also happened with any judicial system. It is well known how corrupt the Indian Judicial system is, and judges are bought with money in routine.

    Since it is direct democracy, the Khap Panchayat cannot get away with a biased decision, they have live with the rest, day in and day out.


    2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?

    Response: as usual time tells

    3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?

    Response; Enforcement was by consensus. A person living in the ‘same;’ had to follow the rules and norms of the Samaj- society. Fines were levied, Ostracization was one extreme punishment.

    4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?

    Yes, one could go to the higher Khap, or to the Sarv Khap which acted as the Supreme Court,


    5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayat?

    Difficult question.

    If you are talking about women’s empowerment, historically we have evidence that women also participated in the Panchayat, as for example when the Khap Panchayat was meeting and debating responses to the Khiljis, or the Mughals or to Timur.

    On a day to day basis I cannot say.

    The Jats have been a patriarchal society historically, and I suspect that the Panchayat did not in routine give women a vote. Were they heard – I would say yes.

    The saying was “I speak at home; you speak for me at the Panchayat.”

    Does this need to change ?- obviously. Women should have full participation.

    Let us also keep in mind, that women is England received voting rights only in 1928. In contrast Jat women were part of the Panchayat meetings in 1398. some five hundred years earlier.

    The position of the lady was probably the best in Jat society, whether it was re marriage, rights in the family etc, she held a position of honor.

    If some one wishes, we can discuss this; I will post a paper on the History section.
    .

    6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?

    There is NO, repeat NO, honor in killing.

    Jats are not violent by nature. They are conservative, may be quick to anger, but their culture does not lead them to casual and easy violence.

    When a loved one gets killed, it creates a vacuum in the family, an emptiness that is impossible to replace.

    Again we can discuss this on a separate thread, but I suspect these killing were more ‘crimes of passion,’ and ‘temporary insanity’, than cold blooded killings for gain.

    I cannot see the Panchayats issuing such an order to kill .

    I can see individuals, going out of their minds, and taking acts that they later regret.

    Jats have a culture of tolerance for all, and are very civilized by nature as their history shows.

    As to major decisions they have taken recently.

    Their political and judicial power was crushed in 1857. It is only in that 25 years or so, that there has been a ground swell ,and the common village people are reviving these bodies , as they can get no satisfaction of from the Judicial- police- political nexus.

    Their movements have improved the rights of rural people , through a constant ongoing interaction with administration and politicians


    Other view are welcome

    Ravi Chaudhary
    Last edited by ravichaudhary; August 20th, 2009 at 02:13 AM.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by jitendershooda View Post
    My views
    1) Yes, Khap will handle this case. You have mentioned that wife goes to khap panchayat for justice, then I feel they will definatly respond.

    2) Decision of the khap panchayat would be to provide jameen and haq to the boy. Panchayat would favour Wife and her boy.

    Now I have seen many cases where individuals dont obey panchayats and they move to court. In this case too this will happen. But interesting thing is that in this case perhaps khap panchayats will not give a Samajik bahishkar to the culprits.
    I agree with Jitender.

    The Khap would provide Justice

    Ravi

  13. #73

    A bite without teeth!!!

    Jitender, Ravi ji,
    Thank you for your thoughts.
    The reality- Khap Panchayat told the brothers to give the woman and her son a share in the property. The brothers refused to follow the decision of the Panchayat. The woman and her family could not afford to fight for their right in the courts. So, she had no choice but to go back to her family, empty handed.
    As Jitender pointed out, why didn't the Khap Panchayat stop the hukka-paani of the errant brothers?
    Regards

    Quote Originally Posted by jitendershooda View Post
    My views
    1) Yes, Khap will handle this case. You have mentioned that wife goes to khap panchayat for justice, then I feel they will definatly respond.

    2) Decision of the khap panchayat would be to provide jameen and haq to the boy. Panchayat would favour Wife and her boy.

    Now I have seen many cases where individuals dont obey panchayats and they move to court. In this case too this will happen. But interesting thing is that in this case perhaps khap panchayats will not give a Samajik bahishkar to the culprits.

  14. #74
    Ravi jee

    With due respect the panchayat bend against powerful and everyone living in the village knows that. The only concensus they might have have is to punish a Girl (of course not BOY) if she has done something wrong.

    In this scenario also they gave there decisions but what about implementation.

    In my opinion they must have a say in court ...like recommending their decision to court and getting it stamped.

    Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
    I agree with Jitender.

    The Khap would provide Justice

    Ravi
    -Virender M.

  15. #75
    Great proposal!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by mann123 View Post
    Ravi jee
    In my opinion they must have a say in court ...like recommending their decision to court and getting it stamped.

    Thanks

  16. #76
    Jitender,
    Appreciate your revert to my questions, thanks. I do favor the khap panchayats, but not in their current form of dark ages. It would be a long wait before khaps grow into institutions to run parallel to judiciary.

    #The judiciary system is very well documented, and well supported by other institutions. To compare Khaps with Judiciary would be inappropriate. I guess the judiciary system is more evolved form of the Khaps.

    #Yes, khaps can support the judiciary in expediting cases, but what would be the nature of these cases? only the petty ones that need quick resolutions or where a petitioner cannot afford a lawyer? Correct me if I am wrong here, but khaps do not have calibre to handle issues involving high stakes (now that land is a commodity) or complex political gameplans. Villagers killed the couple who flouted the acceptable norms. Will khap exonerate the villagers involved in this murder justified by social norms?

    #How influential a khap can be? We have an example of Mahender Singh Tikait, a khap chaudhary who rose to be the president of Bhartiya Kisan Union.Correct me if I am wrong, this is the strongest a khap can grow in its current structure. What impact has he/khap had so far in his/its sphere of influence?

    #Could role of Khaps stretch further than the social norms (match-making and match-breaking) and into the political and economic domain of the villages? Not just to improve the "values" but also the economic conditions?

    Regards,
    Anju
    Quote Originally Posted by jitendershooda View Post
    Could you please try to answer the same questions with respect to present judiciary system in India leaving behind panchayats/khaps.



    Overall this system was indeed a good system and needs to be carried forward but in present scenerio needs lots of improvements with some legal put also.

    I would say Anjoo's questions have substance and I responded only to defend the fact that these panchayats are for good and we shouldnt portray them as villians. Instead we can improve them every day and they can prove (are proving) load sharers for Indian judicial system which is having very less efficiency with so much backlog and loopholes.

  17. #77
    Ravi ji,
    You have added meat to Jitender's arguement in favor of the khap panchayats.
    However, I differ from your stand in a few aspects, that i would elaborate in my future post soon.
    Regards
    Anju
    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
    Jitender Hooda Sahib has given some very insightful explanations. I agree with him.

    Some more thoughts:


    1) Is there a way to ensure that the Khap passes unbiased decisions?

    Response: No there is no way to know that the decision is not biased. That also happened with any judicial system. It is well known how corrupt the Indian Judicial system is, and judges are bought with money in routine.

    Since it is direct democracy, the Khap Panchayat cannot get away with a biased decision, they have live with the rest, day in and day out.


    2) How is it proved that decision taken is right?

    Response: as usual time tells

    3) Any way to enforce the implementation of the decision?

    Response; Enforcement was by consensus. A person living in the ‘same;’ had to follow the rules and norms of the Samaj- society. Fines were levied, Ostracization was one extreme punishment.

    4) Any way to challenge the decision? Who does one go to if the decision is not acceptable?

    Yes, one could go to the higher Khap, or to the Sarv Khap which acted as the Supreme Court,


    5) How many women are currently represented/ involved in Khap Panchayat?

    Difficult question.

    If you are talking about women’s empowerment, historically we have evidence that women also participated in the Panchayat, as for example when the Khap Panchayat was meeting and debating responses to the Khiljis, or the Mughals or to Timur.

    On a day to day basis I cannot say.

    The Jats have been a patriarchal society historically, and I suspect that the Panchayat did not in routine give women a vote. Were they heard – I would say yes.

    The saying was “I speak at home; you speak for me at the Panchayat.”

    Does this need to change ?- obviously. Women should have full participation.

    Let us also keep in mind, that women is England received voting rights only in 1928. In contrast Jat women were part of the Panchayat meetings in 1398. some five hundred years earlier.

    The position of the lady was probably the best in Jat society, whether it was re marriage, rights in the family etc, she held a position of honor.

    If some one wishes, we can discuss this; I will post a paper on the History section.
    .

    6) Can anybody give a recent achievement of Khap Panchayat, besides the honor killings?

    There is NO, repeat NO, honor in killing.

    Jats are not violent by nature. They are conservative, may be quick to anger, but their culture does not lead them to casual and easy violence.

    When a loved one gets killed, it creates a vacuum in the family, an emptiness that is impossible to replace.

    Again we can discuss this on a separate thread, but I suspect these killing were more ‘crimes of passion,’ and ‘temporary insanity’, than cold blooded killings for gain.

    I cannot see the Panchayats issuing such an order to kill .

    I can see individuals, going out of their minds, and taking acts that they later regret.

    Jats have a culture of tolerance for all, and are very civilized by nature as their history shows.

    As to major decisions they have taken recently.

    Their political and judicial power was crushed in 1857. It is only in that 25 years or so, that there has been a ground swell ,and the common village people are reviving these bodies , as they can get no satisfaction of from the Judicial- police- political nexus.

    Their movements have improved the rights of rural people , through a constant ongoing interaction with administration and politicians


    Other view are welcome

    Ravi Chaudhary

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by anjoo View Post
    Ravi ji,
    You have added meat to Jitender's arguement in favor of the khap panchayats.
    However, I differ from your stand in a few aspects, that i would elaborate in my future post soon.
    Regards
    Anju
    Anju

    Please do.

    I hope other members will also take advantage of this and contribute their thoughts.

    Nothing is cast in stone.

    We must evolve and adapt to meet current challenges


    Ravi Chaudhary

  19. #79

    Its Without Rule books so its better!!

    Quote Originally Posted by anjoo View Post
    Jitender,
    Appreciate your revert to my questions, thanks. I do favor the khap panchayats, but not in their current form of dark ages. It would be a long wait before khaps grow into institutions to run parallel to judiciary.

    #The judiciary system is very well documented, and well supported by other institutions. To compare Khaps with Judiciary would be inappropriate. I guess the judiciary system is more evolved form of the Khaps.
    Here I would like to tell you this Written rules are problems. what are those
    1. They are rigid.
    2. Lawyer Plays with wording in rule. Sky is limit for word plays as there is pools of rule books.
    3. Khap Panchayat is not in dark age. You can say its evolved and tested method. Jury and Supreme court with 3 and 5 judges are imitation of the Panchayats. Only there is so much red tapes,alienation and overcrowded they are not as use full as panchayats.
    4. And yes you can say there is so much difference in Verdict that they seems cruel some time. But getting 7-10 years term for some thing that should be overlooked. Like accidental deaths and many such cases.

    Still i want to improove our khap panchayats and it should start with judidcial system gives verdict against Panchayats and members.

    Aur jo yeh Honour Killing ki baat karte hai ki galat hai, they should put themselves at their position. You also would kill at those situation. Killing man dont give them any pleasure or some thing.
    And I dont think any JAT will give reward here to the person.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by dskadyan View Post
    Here I would like to tell you this Written rules are problems. what are those
    1. They are rigid.
    2. Lawyer Plays with wording in rule. Sky is limit for word plays as there is pools of rule books.
    3. Khap Panchayat is not in dark age. You can say its evolved and tested method. Jury and Supreme court with 3 and 5 judges are imitation of the Panchayats. Only there is so much red tapes,alienation and overcrowded they are not as use full as panchayats.
    4. And yes you can say there is so much difference in Verdict that they seems cruel some time. But getting 7-10 years term for some thing that should be overlooked. Like accidental deaths and many such cases.

    Still i want to improove our khap panchayats and it should start with judidcial system gives verdict against Panchayats and members.

    Aur jo yeh Honour Killing ki baat karte hai ki galat hai, they should put themselves at their position. You also would kill at those situation. Killing man dont give them any pleasure or some thing.
    And I dont think any JAT will give reward here to the person.
    I also think murder is A-OK as long as the murderer does not receive any gifts. In case someone gives the murderer a gift, he should straightaway turn it down and chastize the gift-giver by laying down the rule about gift-less honor killings.
    As regards to pleasure, what if the murderer has a pleasing personality? So Khaat panchayat should come up with a rule for banning murderers with pleasing personalities. All this projection is now making my head hurt.
    Last edited by sidchhikara; August 22nd, 2009 at 01:31 AM.

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