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Thread: Lucky Lad Dhoni Lucky No More?

  1. #21
    No deepak. i wud say tht any way a player plays is natural. going by the last line in ur post, one can never play naturally.
    Quote Originally Posted by malikdeepak1 View Post
    No Abhimanyu. Natural game is the one which a player plays irrespective of circumstances or varying conditions. Its the one which you have always played without fearing any bowler. Sehwag's natural game is attack whereas Dravid is bit defensive by nature.
    If you ask Sehwag to defend he will certainly get out quickly bcoz it doesn't suit his style at all. For me a player should be a blend of Sehwag and Dravid. he should be able to play according to all situations, just like Ponting. He adjusts so quickly according to the situation. You can count Lara too in this category.

    For bowlers too same thing applies. Like Parveen Kumar is good when bowl swings. he is hard to get away that time since he is good at swing bowling. But if you give him a flat pitch he will definitely struggle since his natural style is swing bowling which requires bowlers to pitch the bowl up. He will try to bowl line and length deliveries but won't succeed 4 out of 6 times.
    The style of batting and bowling comes naturally. Its pure talent. It will take years if you want to change it.

    So a player's natural game is what he loves to bat like or bowl like no matter what the conditions are!!
    Of all the things that tax a man's patience, there's nothing to compare with a stuck zipper.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by singhabhimanyu View Post
    No deepak. i wud say tht any way a player plays is natural. going by the last line in ur post, one can never play naturally.
    Abhimanyu a player is judged by this capability only. I wuld like to give xample of Jayasuriya here. He always plays his natural game, batting first or second doesn't matter for him. He never diverts from his attacking skills. Thats what natural game is. You don't change your game under pressure. Jayasuriya likes to attack and he attacks. At age of 40 he still plays like a young gun.
    A350Xwb - Shaping Efficiency!

  3. #23
    copypasting from post 18 "even if a swashbuckling batsman is subdued with fear of some superfast express bowler and gets on the defensive then his fear is also natural and very much part of his batting style. Batting is not what with you do with ur bat but also what u do with ur mind. same applies to bowling. even if someone goes into a custodial shell or bursts out of thundering clouds, its all natural. One's game is always natural"

    What u r saying is "preference", an ardent liking.

    note- its my view on being 'natural'.
    Quote Originally Posted by malikdeepak1 View Post
    Abhimanyu a player is judged by this capability only. I wuld like to give xample of Jayasuriya here. He always plays his natural game, batting first or second doesn't matter for him. He never diverts from his attacking skills. Thats what natural game is. You don't change your game under pressure. Jayasuriya likes to attack and he attacks. At age of 40 he still plays like a young gun.
    Last edited by singhabhimanyu; October 7th, 2009 at 07:29 PM.
    Of all the things that tax a man's patience, there's nothing to compare with a stuck zipper.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by singhabhimanyu View Post
    copypasting from post 18 "even if a swashbuckling batsman is subdued with fear of some superfast express bowler and gets on the defensive then his fear is also natural and very much part of his batting style. Batting is not what with you do with ur bat but also what u do with ur mind. same applies to bowling. even if someone goes into a custodial shell or bursts out of thundering clouds, its all natural. One's game is always natural"

    What u r saying is "preference", an ardent liking.

    note- its my view on being 'natural'.
    Preference is determined by circumstances. If your team is 5 wickets down and still 25 overs are remaining You have to give preference to defensive shots. You will curb down your attacking instincts.
    You will not play the way you are always known for. Thats where circumstances prevail over your natural game.
    I'll still say that natural game is what you play irrespective of circumstances. You can bowl to Dravid for whole of the day and he will keep on defending, but if you ask him to play briskly and hit boundaries he is surely bound to get out quickly becoz he has to come out of skin to play those attacking shots. And thats where his mental strength becomes feeble and he looses his concentration. He doesn't have that capability to come out blazing at every delivery.

    Some players love to be attacking and some are defensive by nature. This thing comes naturally to everyone. Its a God gift. Everyone can't be a Warne or Murali who can spin the ball miles even on a flat track. Thats natural talent. If you will ask Kumble to spin that much he will fail to come up to expectations, coz his nature is to keep the bowl on line and length, not spinning it much.

    And one's game can not be natural always. After all we all are humans and tend to get circumspects. Natural game allows you to play freely your shots, whether defensive or attacking. When your team is in trouble and you go down to defensive shots its circumspection, not your natural game.

    Everyone has different opinion on different things. Its good to have little discussion to know what others think of.
    Last edited by malikdeepak1; October 8th, 2009 at 08:32 AM.
    A350Xwb - Shaping Efficiency!

  5. #25
    क्यूँ दुखी हो रहे सो, वे आप खेल लें गे जिन ने खेलना होगा ......नैचुरल हो चाहे अन नैचुरल .....टीम जीतनी चाहिए बस .
    और के सारी हन क्रिकेट की बतलाये जाओ सो .........किसे ने बेरा से हॉकी टीम का कॅप्टन कौन से ???

    What do you think Indian team is living up to this new opportunity in world criket?

    No India is not living up to standards of world Cricket. We always rely on one player performence. We have poor physical fitness as compare to other teams. Inadequate bench strength.Bowlers are loosing pace and swing.Too many problems.

    Who's next man in line to wear the cap?

    I won't go with yuvraj, he is too arrogant. Gambhir is too shy. Viru is good option but he is getting old and injury prone. We should look towards new blood like Raina or Rohit sharma.

    But before that is it time for selectors to look beyond MS Dhoni?

    Yes, this is the right time to look beyond Dhoni. Not much time left for world cup 2011,we should look for his backup. BCCI should give young players more exposure and keep resting the senior players to keep them fit for bigger tournaments.
    The word "EQUAL" has no meaning in human life

  6. #26
    with all due respect, i think otherwise. u r fixating a natural game to liking of a player. what im saying is "capability + preference + mind + settings = natural game". for instance, if Warne has to bowl a flipper all of a sudden according to the circumstances then it is natural of him to do so. generally, balling leg-spinners is his preference over the other magical tricks he has in his fingers. balling genuine leg-spinners is only a part of his natural game.

    concluding from the above equation, one's game is always natural.

    Quote Originally Posted by malikdeepak1 View Post
    Preference is determined by circumstances.
    And one's game can not be natural always.
    Everyone has different opinion on different things. Its good to have little discussion to know what others think of.
    Of all the things that tax a man's patience, there's nothing to compare with a stuck zipper.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by singhabhimanyu View Post
    concluding from the above equation, one's game is always natural.
    Discussion khatam nahi hoya er tane CONCLUDE bhi kar diya :D:p
    sahi se:rock
    A350Xwb - Shaping Efficiency!

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by akshaymalik84 View Post
    क्यूँ दुखी हो रहे सो, वे आप खेल लें गे जिन ने खेलना होगा ......नैचुरल हो चाहे अन नैचुरल .....टीम जीतनी चाहिए बस .
    और के सारी हन क्रिकेट की बतलाये जाओ सो .........किसे ने बेरा से हॉकी टीम का कॅप्टन कौन से ???

    what do you think indian team is living up to this new opportunity in world criket?

    no india is not living up to standards of world cricket. We always rely on one player performence. We have poor physical fitness as compare to other teams. Inadequate bench strength.bowlers are loosing pace and swing.too many problems.

    who's next man in line to wear the cap?

    i won't go with yuvraj, he is too arrogant. Gambhir is too shy. Viru is good option but he is getting old and injury prone. We should look towards new blood like raina or rohit sharma.

    but before that is it time for selectors to look beyond ms dhoni?

    yes, this is the right time to look beyond dhoni. Not much time left for world cup 2011,we should look for his backup. Bcci should give young players more exposure and keep resting the senior players to keep them fit for bigger tournaments.
    अक्षय , भारतीय होकी टीम भारतीय क्रिकेट की तरह दुधारू गाय नहीं है. छह घंटे के खेल में अथाह पैसा आता है बोर्ड के पास. ये सबसे बड़ी विडम्बना है होकी की भी और भारतीय मानसिकता की भी. चाहे भारतीय होकी का कपटेन प्रधान मंत्री स्वयम क्यों न हो हम लोग क्रिकेट को ही तवज्जो देंगे. अब तो गाँव क्या और शहर क्या सब क्रिकेट के मोहपाश में हैं. मेरा चचेरा भाई कहता है की बस एक आई पी ल का मैच खेल लूं फिर देखना. क्रिकेट के लिए अच्छा है ये और बाकी खेलो के लिए शायद अच्छा नहीं. और शायद ऐसी स्थिअती पश्चिम देसों में फुटबॉल, बसेबाल को लेकर है.

    कपिल ने सही कहा की परसाद बोलिंग कोच की भूमिका शायद अब निभा चूका है. अब शायद आक्रामक बोलिंग कोच की आवश्यकता है भारतीय टीम को.यही बात फील्डिंग कोच रोबिन सिंह पर लागू होती है. शायद किसी अच्छे दिन वो आशीष नेहरा को कैच थामना और हरभजन सिंह को डाईव करना सिखा ही देंगे .



    रोहित शर्मा और सुरेश रैना में अभी भी मैच खेलने की परिपक्वता नहीं है. कप्तानी की बात तो बहुत दूर है.

    मेरा मानना ये है की धोनी को ट२० और एक दिवसीय का कप्तान रखा जाये ताकि ज्यादा बोझ न रहे और उसका 'कुदरती' खेल प्रभावित न हो.

    २०११ के वर्ल्ड कप के लिए जूनियर लेवल के खिलाडियों का विदेशी दौरा महत्वपूर्ण है. अन्यथा ये नए खिलाडी रास्ट्रीय टीम में सिर्फ पानी पकडाते ही नज़र आयेंगे.

    कप्तान के तौर पैर चयनकर्ताओ के पास ज्यादा विकल्प मौजूद नहीं है.सहवाग ने दिल्ली आई पी ल की कप्तानी से मन किया है न की रास्ट्रीय टीम के लिए. इस समय तो सहवाग ही सबसे अच्छा विकल्प नज़र आता है.

    मेरे हिसाब से गेंदबाजी में कुछ नए चेहरे जो की आई पी ल में नज़र आये थे उनको मौका दिया जाना चाहिए. वर्ल्ड कप के समय तक भारतीय टीम के पास कम से कम पांच तेज गेंदबाज रिज़र्व में रहने चाहिए. स्पिन विभाग में अमित मिश्र एक अच्छी प्रतिभा है, टेस्ट टीम में हरभजन का अच्छा विकल्प साबित होगा.

    हाल के मैच में दूसरा बैटिंग पॉवर प्ले लेने पैर के आप लोगो की क्या राय है? कितने ओवर और कितने विकेट के बाद ये लेना तार्किक तौर पैर फायदेमंद है ?
    Last edited by Samarkadian; October 8th, 2009 at 12:53 PM.
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samarkadian View Post
    मेरा मानना ये है की धोनी को ट२० और एक दिवसीय का कप्तान रखा जाये ताकि ज्यादा बोझ न रहे और उसका 'कुदरती' खेल प्रभावित न हो.

    २०११ के वर्ल्ड कप के लिए जूनियर लेवल के खिलाडियों का विदेशी दौरा महत्वपूर्ण है. अन्यथा ये नए खिलाडी रास्ट्रीय टीम में सिर्फ पानी पकडाते ही नज़र आयेंगे.

    कप्तान के तौर पैर चयनकर्ताओ के पास ज्यादा विकल्प मौजूद नहीं है.सहवाग ने दिल्ली आई पी ल की कप्तानी से मन किया है न की रास्ट्रीय टीम के लिए. इस समय तो सहवाग ही सबसे अच्छा विकल्प नज़र आता है.

    मेरे हिसाब से गेंदबाजी में कुछ नए चेहरे जो की आई पी ल में नज़र आये थे उनको मौका दिया जाना चाहिए. वर्ल्ड कप के समय तक भारतीय टीम के पास कम से कम पांच तेज गेंदबाज रिज़र्व में रहने चाहिए. स्पिन विभाग में अमित मिश्र एक अच्छी प्रतिभा है, टेस्ट टीम में हरभजन का अच्छा विकल्प साबित होगा.

    हाल के मैच में दूसरा बैटिंग पॉवर प्ले लेने पैर के आप लोगो की क्या राय है? कितने ओवर और कितने विकेट के बाद ये लेना तार्किक तौर पैर फायदेमंद है ?

    So much so on the natural game.

    For the boiis who are debating this , this is very much subjetive , once can argue for and against at the same time.

    My take is this: If tomorrow Sehwag starts playing like Dravid , he is not playing his natural game.
    Or if Dravid starts taking aerial route on every 3rd ball he is not playing his natural game.
    When players play for a long enough time , there are certain pre-defined notions about him, we all have a image of dhoni where he can hit those magical sixes with 360 degree bat movement !
    He is certainly not playing per that , with responsibilities he has cut down on his aggression.


    Certainly i do not agree that Dhoni should be removed from captaincy , may be he comes out of this much stronger.

    On Mishra , I think he is a talent. I would any day prefer a quality spinner over an ordinary fast bowler. So to me it makes less of sense to keep out Mishra because you need to play 3 fast bowlers. I still do not rate Murali that highly becasue (till the time I used to watch cricket) he was not comfortable bowling within the powerplays. Dharamsena , Jayasurya and others used to come before him to bowl with field up , that is crap to me.
    Take Warne , Kumble and a couple of other greats , they can bowl anytime , no harm in even getting them the new bowl.
    I guess we need to give Irfan another shot , he will be the t hird medium pacer and the extra batsmen India need. Yususf is not doing justice to his role. What I also do not get is why do you need to give Irfan the new ball and the batsmen thrash him all over and dent his confidence. Get him in with first or second change with cover and then build his confidence.
    I would go with Mishra , Bhajji , Pathan and 2 seamers as the bowling power.


    On the powerplay , it is a bit tricky , on one hand it does not make sense to delay it till 45 because in the last 5 ovrs you are already slogging. And on the other it does not go well with two batsmen well set , taking off 5-6 an over and then taking powerplay and getting one of them out while trying to slog. Surely there should be some thought that needs to be put into it and the team composition should also be kept in mind.
    How about having a batsmen who is given the role of powerplay slogger and specifically given training and practise and mindset for it? Lets say someone like Yuvraj and he is told that do not slog each ball , but with your power and skills , we should be good with 50 off 5! I think powerplay should really be taken tactially , I am sure if India would have taken the powerplay against pakistan just after Raina slogged Malik in that 14 run over , and played normal cricket for 5 overs even managing 35 off 5 , we would have won.
    sometime it makes sense to me to take a powerplay and play very normal cricket , no facy shots etc and just get 30 off 5 and take the game 5 overs forward and then judge the situation. Take it this way , powerplay , batting powerplay ( smells like somthing good for the batting team ) --> mean the bowling team is on disadvantge and on defensive , play with their minds , their efforts are down to take the wicket , rather they are looking to control you and the runs , play out 5 overs with 30 and you have got 30 close to the target and 5 overs less , and the same number of wickets and then you can plan accordingly.

    Lets take an example:

    India were 199/4 after 33 overs against pakistan when Raina slogged Malik.
    104 required from 17 with 6 wickets in hand.

    Take a batting powerplay.

    get 25-30 from 5.(probably the worst case scenario , but lets take that only)

    So you need , ~ 75 from 12 , 6 an over and 6 wickets in hand , I think you will fancy a shot at target aith Dravid and Raina at the wicket and Pathan to come.

    The trick is that you never know when you can loose a wicket , when there can be on good ball and you are gone. So make the opposition divert their attention and change their plans. Also they are bound to get their good bowlers back now and weaker bowlers will then remain for the last overs , so even if you get out , you tail gets to face the less quality bowlers?


    Pheww! So much so for the powerplay planning!

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by anilsinghd View Post

    Certainly i do not agree that Dhoni should be removed from captaincy , may be he comes out of this much stronger.

    On Mishra , I think he is a talent. I would any day prefer a quality spinner over an ordinary fast bowler. So to me it makes less of sense to keep out Mishra because you need to play 3 fast bowlers. I still do not rate Murali that highly becasue (till the time I used to watch cricket) he was not comfortable bowling within the powerplays. Dharamsena , Jayasurya and others used to come before him to bowl with field up , that is crap to me.
    Take Warne , Kumble and a couple of other greats , they can bowl anytime , no harm in even getting them the new bowl.
    I guess we need to give Irfan another shot , he will be the t hird medium pacer and the extra batsmen India need. Yususf is not doing justice to his role. What I also do not get is why do you need to give Irfan the new ball and the batsmen thrash him all over and dent his confidence. Get him in with first or second change with cover and then build his confidence.
    I would go with Mishra , Bhajji , Pathan and 2 seamers as the bowling power.
    You took my words bro. Totally in agreement with you.

    Powerplay is really tricky. But its waste if you take it in last five overs if you are batting first. Batting second will give you an advantage if you need some 40 of last 5 overs.
    My take is it should not be taken in last 5 overs. If your set batsman gets out in last ten overs, the next batsman doesn't get enough time to build up momentum. You may loose the hold on situation if this happens. It should be idle to take between 30-38 overs if your team is 2 or 3 wickets down. If you are 5 down by 40th over then delay it to 42nd-43rd over not beyond that. It all depends on what situation you are in.
    I remember against england Dhoni took powerplay immediately when Yuvraj came out to bat. It was a bad mistake which costed Yuvi's wicket. A player can not start hitting straight away.
    My opinion is not to delay it till the last five overs.

    One more thing i would again like to stress is that a player should not be given more than 15 chances at international level at a stretch. 15 continuous chances are sufficeint to judge a player at international level. Wo player FORM me hota hai isiliye team me aata hai. Many players perform at national level but fail at higher levels. Don't keep on carrying these players. They become a burden on team. Kick them once and they will definitely come back strongly if they have metal to reach those levels again like Dada, Zak and Yuvi did.
    Last edited by malikdeepak1; October 9th, 2009 at 11:06 AM.
    A350Xwb - Shaping Efficiency!

  11. #31
    Timing of Champions League T20 is bad enough due to festival around. It is rarely attractive to masses like it was supposed to. Same is with Salve Challanger Trophy. Too much cricket is bad for everyone's taste. Seems like sponsors want to extract maximum out of T20 format.
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by kapil.dalal View Post
    Venkatesh Prasad ka role bhi investigate karna chaahiye. He seems to be the graveyard of all Indian pace bowlers. Sab 140+ pe start karte hain, and then they come down to 125. Prasad is the bowling coach. He is known for nothing else but his humungous variety of slow, slower and slowest bowls. I am sure he is teaching all that jazz to his "students".
    Kapil bhai
    Yo suthra kaam to kar diya BCCI ne

    http://www.cricinfo.com/india/content/current/story/429676.html :rock
    A350Xwb - Shaping Efficiency!

  13. #33
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    Awesome Crap?

    Rahul Dravid, brought in to shore up the middle order in bowler-friendly conditions in South Africa, has been dropped for the first two ODIs against Australia, a home series expected to be played on flat tracks.

    Since his comeback, he has scored 14, 47, 39, 76 and 4 in five innings; the 39 came in a crucial 95-run opening stand in the final of the tri-series in Sri Lanka.

    =============================

    This is total nonsense , you cannot treat a senior player like this! Dravid was decent and did his bit andd did not deserve to be dropped , if at all he is dropped now , he did not deserve to be called at all. I thought cricket is a gentlemen's game ?

    If any of those *stars* (Gambhir, Dhoni , Kohli, Pathan ) had shown a bit more application and stood by Dravid against Pak in Champions trophy we might have cracked that game !
    I just hate this , it is so disappointing. Here is a guy with 11k Test Runs , 11k ODI runs , 38 International centuries and you treat him like this?

  14. #34
    Anil, selecton committe now has K.Srikant as head who used to bash selectors over Ganguly- Chappel-Zaheer issue and clearly stood for Ganguly.
    In subcontinent they want to make stars out of Rohit, Virat, Jadeja etc but outside they know these boys don't work. They would make good 50s at home and 5s in foreign. Yusuf Pathan is a good talent but his batting order makes him on toes always. Few failures outsed him. Now selection committe wants to have their cake and eat it too when it comes to young and experienced players. This was more of an insult to Dravid than a re-chance to few new faces. What is the use of Ishant, I don't understand. He is a test bowler and I am sure selectors would leave him for nothing after few matches instead of giving hi time to groom in domestic and junior teams. Only Tendulkar seems immune to all this. Selectors know that they can't touch him anyway. Dhoni himself lacks some backbone to show some respect to people like Dravid who helped Indian criket in batting world. This would surely shake Dravid's confidence. In my opinion , Dravid shall keep on playing T20 and say adieu to One Dayers to avoid such a disrespect. It would have been good had they change the captain for initial two one dayers. Dhoni would have come out of comfort zone.
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

  15. #35
    Lucky Lad lead India to no.1 position in test cricket.
    The word "EQUAL" has no meaning in human life

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Samarkadian View Post


    In my opinion, Dhoni should not be the leading in all formats. He has lost his natural game of hitting evidently. He is good for T20. There is need to be decentralisation of captaincy for the healthy performances in upcoming times.

    Dhoni has recently hit 2 test centuries. He is the best finisher in one day game in Indian team probably in the world now. I prefer this changed Dhoni who play more responcibly as a captain should always do. He is technically not so sound but within his limitations he always give the best.
    जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।

    दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे

  17. #37

    Venky

    Regarding Venky, Zaheer has become a better bowler under venky. A good coach doesnt has to be a best player. Just my 2 paise!
    जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।

    दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by vipin80 View Post
    Dhoni has recently hit 2 test centuries. He is the best finisher in one day game in Indian team probably in the world now. I prefer this changed Dhoni who play more responcibly as a captain should always do. He is technically not so sound but within his limitations he always give the best.
    Disagree, India would not be out of ICC world T-20 if Dhoni would have played better. Ms Dhoni....30(20) and Y Pathan ...33(17) ...India 150 lost by 3 runs.

    3rd ODI b/w Aus and India... Dhoni 6(15)....India lost by 3 run to Aus. .....Sachin played an Epic in that one.

    Ist ODI b/w Aus and India...Dhoni 34(46) .....India lost by 4 runs.

    He is good but not the best. Best till now is Micheal Bevan.
    The word "EQUAL" has no meaning in human life

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by akshaymalik84 View Post

    He is good but not the best. Best till now is Micheal Bevan.
    Michael bevan is retired and I wasnt talking about all time great. I said "IS". You can compare Dhoni with Bevan when he retires. To have an average of more than 50 demands something.
    Last edited by VirJ; December 7th, 2009 at 07:25 AM.
    जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।

    दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by vipin80 View Post
    Michael bevan is retired and I wasnt talking about all time great. I said "IS". You can compare Dhoni with Bevan when he retires. To have an average of more than 50 demands something.
    So is Don Bradman but people still compare him with Sachin.

    Currently, Mike Hussey is far ahead than Dhoni.

    http://cricketnext.in.com/news/dhoni.../44923-32.html
    Last edited by akshaymalik84; December 7th, 2009 at 07:34 AM.
    The word "EQUAL" has no meaning in human life

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