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Thread: Jat- the term origins, history, etymology etc

  1. #41

    Jat- the term origins,history,etymology, etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Milu View Post
    Please don't give up so easily! A valid point will eventually prevail.


    Urmila ji,

    Thanks a lot for noticing my disappointment and ading your kind words.Iwould like to assure you and other friends that I did not join the forum to prevail (in any manner). My earnest desire was to share new information or what was hitherto not commonly available to the friends here.Having been a teacher of Sanskrit for over forty years and lately a zealous student of Jat history it slowly became difficult for me to helplessly watch the painful spectacle of being confronted with the stereotypes of views which had outlived their validity for the simple reasons that in some cases they were based merely on imagination, (fanciful (if I could be allowed to say that) and arbitrary constructons , especially of Sanskrit texts. In other words one could reasonably call them monologues from a power house of speech. I am of the opinion that in a forum no one person could claim appropriation of all the wisdom on any subject. I would very much like to follow this principle myself. But I would certainly feel inclined to get affirmation if any point (and a crucial one for that matter) made by me if it was valid and acceptable.
    I find a good lot of material on Wikipedia which cries for radical revision in light of new researches and incontrovertible findings of scholars. Many of such spots are found to be edit proof. Is it not a matter to feel disappointed about and getting dismayed? One can't help but speak in anguish when the same Wiki text is quoted as evidence to refute a point made on the basis of latest authentic material.
    Any way, I once again thank you for your kindness.

  2. #42
    Rana Saheb,

    I would like to clear it here that Wikipedia is a different site edited and improved by world all over. I have quoted some topics above from Wikipedia and not from Jatland Wiki. Jatland Wiki has not created as yet any page on Sanskrit or Prakrat languages. If in our discussions we get some useful informations about Jats in Sanskrit or Prakrat languages we can add these contents to Jatland Wiki.

    Wiki media has to depend on verifiable published sources. Here in this discussion forum we can discuss every thing.

    We have to understand the limitation of Wiki media.

    Your suggestions and contributions are most welcome.

    Your addition of Acedemician link today helped to create a new Category The Academicians

    This is how wiki expands with contribution of all members. Here we do not discuss to win but to help our society to find new content,

    Regards,
    Laxman Burdak

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambijat View Post
    The syllable theory is a good reference to model out the linkages. The quest is that how this four piece puzzle that one has matched gets into larger fitting. Thus, solving puzzle in parts itself would not foresee the whole picture. The whole picture is more than the sum of the parts.

    Therefore, if one believes in 'one to many' and 'many into one' as one of the frequent processes in caste formulation then perhaps we need to look into gujars, yadavs, rajputs and see how Nagas or any other ruling clans are related to their pasts. I hope it would validate the aforesaid claims by Burdak ji and others.

    To put it simple I would not like to claim any exclusive past of the Jats. The ancient clans must have served as primordial raw material for horizontal and vertical social stratification.

    rgs!
    ************************************************** *
    Ambarishji,

    We need to study Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas – The Ancient Rulers of India, Their Origins and History. This author is not oriented towards Jats or Jat clans. To find Jats or its clans we need an effort like churning the ocean of milk. As regards to Dhaka authentication he has written more about it and proves Dhaka word's origin from Taka as under:


    Dhaka is also the name of capital of Bangladesh. It is named after Dhakeshwari i.e. the goddess of Dhakas. According to Dr Naval Viyogi [1] In a period of third century AD many hoards of Taka coins have been recovered from Nagpur region,[2] which were introduced by the Taka Nagas of North-West. Linguists have informed that these Taka people reached and ruled in the region of Dhaka of Bangla Desh, since the word ' Dhaka' is a linguistic (Pali) variation of Taka. [3] In the second act of Sanskrit play mrcchakatika a dialect has been used by author, known as Takki. Taki, Takka or Dhakka is the Prakrit dialect which has been called by Pischal language of East Bengal spoken around Dhaka, but there is another interpretation too, since word 'Ta' has been changed to 'Dha' due to the tendency of change from Sanskrit to Pali or Prakrit as cited above, hence the original word is Taka from which Dhaka has been derived.[4][5]
    References
    ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas – The Ancient Rulers of India, Their Origins and History (The History of the Indigenous people of India Vol. 2), Published by Originals (an imprint of Low Price Publications), Delhi, 2002, ISBN 81-7536-287-1
    ↑ Gupta Chandra Shekhar "Foreign Denomination of early Indian Coins" VIJ (1978) Vol 16 Part 1-2 pp 92-93
    ↑ Bulletin of the Deccan Research Institute, Vol I (1939-40) p.192
    ↑ Mehendale M.A. "Takki or Dhakki" , Bulletin of the Deccan College research Institute Vol I (1939-40) p.189-92
    ↑ Dr Naval Viyogi: Nagas – The Ancient Rulers of India, Their Origins and History (The History of the Indigenous people of India Vol. 2), Published by Originals (an imprint of Low Price Publications), Delhi, 2002, ISBN 81-7536-287-1. pp-22,25,156
    Laxman Burdak

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post

    Urmila ji,

    Thanks a lot for noticing my disappointment and ading your kind words.Iwould like to assure you and other friends that I did not join the forum to prevail (in any manner). My earnest desire was to share new information or what was hitherto not commonly available to the friends here.Having been a teacher of Sanskrit for over forty years and lately a zealous student of Jat history it slowly became difficult for me to helplessly watch the painful spectacle of being confronted with the stereotypes of views which had outlived their validity for the simple reasons that in some cases they were based merely on imagination, (fanciful (if I could be allowed to say that) and arbitrary constructons , especially of Sanskrit texts. In other words one could reasonably call them monologues from a power house of speech. I am of the opinion that in a forum no one person could claim appropriation of all the wisdom on any subject. I would very much like to follow this principle myself. But I would certainly feel inclined to get affirmation if any point (and a crucial one for that matter) made by me if it was valid and acceptable.
    I find a good lot of material on Wikipedia which cries for radical revision in light of new researches and incontrovertible findings of scholars. Many of such spots are found to be edit proof. Is it not a matter to feel disappointed about and getting dismayed? One can't help but speak in anguish when the same Wiki text is quoted as evidence to refute a point made on the basis of latest authentic material.
    Any way, I once again thank you for your kindness.


    Rana sahib

    We all share your frustrations and feel the same way.

    As more and more like minded people get involved, we will make progress.


    Some time ago, we were succesful in getting on Hindu Site to stop blaming Jats for the mahratta debacle at Panipat, and also to stop making claims that the Mahrattas stopped the Jats from looting Delhi.

    Now that took the better part of an year, and succeeded only because the web master was a true patriot

    We do not always have such luck

    All we can do is to soldier on


    Ravii Chaudhary

  5. #45
    Referring to Takka or Dhakka debate:
    I see this logical construct worth sustaining, my only subsequent query is that "What we make out from this even if this true?" Because it it not going to give us any model of generalisation unless we find a dozen such facts of similar domain. And, how does it fits into other instances of origins of gotras.
    My questions are:
    1. All Jat gotras did not originate in the same time? Yes or No.

    2. Why there are same gotras in different castes? eg Dahiya or Johiya in Jats and Rajputs

    3. Why the jats fail to retain the same social status (or the class) in different regions? this might give the wider options to model out the origin of Jats.

    4. The core-periphery model should also be considered for making out the origin of Jats.

    See, we cannot get history for every thing some facts are extinct for ever and the sole path of knowing cannot be historical only. It has to take a mix of scientific and sociological themes.

    The tragedy is that we all are good in our domains and we are failing to link each other so it is the same old classic of 5 blind scholars and the elephant.
    rgs!
    Keep a bigger heart than than what you had yesterday!

  6. #46
    Regarding the Dhakeshwari and Dhaka,

    There is another version which I had from Bangladeshi Professor's.
    They said that an Afghan subedar Islam Khan had actually chosen a site for settling and he asked his drummer to stand on a mound and beat the drum. So far as the sound of the drum Dhak is audible, that would constitute the limits of the settlement. So came the settlement of Dhaka.
    I know these are contestations, but how to challenge is this?
    The Dhaki is surname in Assam also know as Kamrup and in Afghanistan the village Dhaka is in the province that is known as Kamdesh.
    Now to make a sense out of this....?
    I think the biggest missing link is the Jats of Pakistan.
    rgs!
    Keep a bigger heart than than what you had yesterday!

  7. #47
    Ambrishji,

    This is the kind of history our bards are telling us so can not rely on it. There has to be some evidence. We should find more about Dhakeshwari goddess.

    Regards,
    Laxman Burdak

  8. #48

    About Dhaka Gotra

    Sab Bhaio ko Ram-2,
    Bhaio kuch maine maharastra ki ek site se liya tha jo nimanlikhit hai.

    Dhamale/Dhaka/Dhake

    Lineage: ''Brahmavansha'' alias ''Yaduvansha'' alias ''Harivansha'' alias “Nagvansha.

    Kingdom: Dwarkapattan (Dwarka in Gujarat), Vidarbha (Maharastra), Burhanpur (Madhya Pradesh),Hoshiarpur (Punjab)

    Colour of throne, canopy, sign (''Nishan''), and Horse (''Varu''): Red
    Heraldic sign (''Nishan''): Rudra on flagpole
    Clan god (''Kuladaivat''): VishnuNarayan

    Clan object (''Devak''): Kadamb Tree (Anthocephalus indicus Tree)
    Guru: Munjalmuni
    Gotra: 'Chandale' (For this See also Chandela )
    Veda: Yajurveda
    Mantra: Gayatri mantra

    'Surnames:-' Ajmate, Aale, Uchle, Umbrde, Kathore, Karodikar, Khagol, Khandal, Kharane, Kharag, Khilate, Ganeem, Gane, Gandhe, Gande, Chandrabal, Chitod, Chokhad, Jawre, Jasood, Dhake, Talekar, Dandle, Dandale, Daleem, Nawre, Nigedhe, Pakhare, Bakte, Bakeekar, Bapgare, Burbhe, Bhanwell, Yawle, Dewale, Lande, Waket, Waldkar, Vasand, Shirgadkar, Hirpe, Bakre. (Total 43)

    'Shri. Sharad Dhamale' MLA from Mulshi


    Thanks,

    Rakesh Dhaka
    It is better to remain silent at the risk of being thought a fool,
    Than to talk and remove all doubt of it .

    For success, attitude is equally as important as ability .

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Ambijat View Post
    Regarding the Dhakeshwari and Dhaka,
    So far as the sound of the drum Dhak is audible, that would constitute the limits of the settlement. So came the settlement of Dhaka.

    rgs!
    One more line of action in search of Dhaka clan can be as under:
    We know from above version that Dhaka has originated from Nagavansha. Nagavansha had system of plant or animal Totem. If some casters or tribes or a group of families living together accept animal or a plant as their totem, it is called the totem of that caste or tribe. There is a plant called Palasa in sanskrit and Dhak in prakrat. Its botanical name is Butea monosperma. It is possible that Dhaka derives from Dhak tree. This tree is mentioned in both Ramayana and Mahabharata.

    We have many other nagavanshi clans derived from plants such as Dudi from Dudhi plant, Burdak from Burdock plant, Pilania from Pilwan or Pilu tree. Area of distribution of these trees is same as that of these clans.


    Similarly Gotras from animals. The Vanara described in Ramayana was not the monkey tribe but the tribe with monkey as their totem. Jatayu was not the vulture. Sugriva was not boar. Similarly the Mor, Titar etc. tribe name origin can also be explained.

    Most of the Nagavanshi tribes who merged into the Jat-sangha had this system of Totemism , which explains their gotras based after the plants and the animals.
    Laxman Burdak

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Ambrishji,

    This is the kind of history our bards are telling us so can not rely on it. There has to be some evidence. We should find more about Dhakeshwari goddess.

    Regards,
    Well the bards are not the case here. It is being sourced from the Professor's of Dhaka University, who cited both the versions. Islam Khan came in 15th century.
    We are again floating on the wooden planks (stray logical pieces) of the broken giant ship and how to make out the picture of that giant ship is an herculean task.
    Plants may be a source, but the migration has been an important fact and gotras for their maximum part reveal some geographical identities. I believe the genealogical evidences of these migration patterns can throw some light on these historical formations.

    I wish if somebody can put one theoretical structure that OK! in so and so century BC or AD a conglomerate group came to be known as Jats. Unless such clear cut hypothesis is verified I believe we will not be satiating the quest for our identity.
    tks!
    Last edited by Ambijat; November 22nd, 2009 at 11:03 PM.
    Keep a bigger heart than than what you had yesterday!

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    One more line of action in search of Dhaka clan can be as under:

    Similarly Gotras from animals. The Vanara described in Ramayana was not the monkey tribe but the tribe with monkey as their totem. Jatayu was not the vulture. Sugriva was not boar. Similarly the Mor, Titar etc. tribe name origin can also be explained.

    Most of the Nagavanshi tribes who merged into the Jat-sangha had this system of Totemism , which explains their gotras based after the plants and the animals.
    I can accept this proposition but it has to come through certain tests. There are cultural traits and evidences in other parts of the world where the symbols of plants and animals have been used by tribal societies. If we could corroborate the cultural evidences of these tribes from yesteryears in terms of societal attributes say, the kinship ties and customs relating to birth and death and beliefs then perhaps some satisfaction could be drawn from above hypothesis. Some Siberian tribes in Russia take animals as symbols eg Tiger is taken as God Amba in Northern Kazakhstan.

    tks!
    Keep a bigger heart than than what you had yesterday!

  12. #52
    Rigveda (X.27.1), (III.15.5), (VIII.100.4) mention about a tribe Jarita (जरित) in following verses:

    असत सु मे जरितः साभिवेगो यत सुन्वते यजमनय शिक्षम |
    अनाशीर्दामहमस्मि परहन्ता सत्यध्व्र्तं वर्जिनायन्तमाभुम || Rigveda (X.27.1)[9]


    अछिद्रा शर्म जरितः पुरूणि देवानछा दीद्यानः सुमेधाः |
    रथो न सस्निरभि वक्षि वाजमगने तवं रोदसीनः सुमेके || Rigveda (III.15.5)


    अयमस्मि जरितः पश्य मेह विश्वा जातान्यभ्यस्मि मह्ना |
    रतस्य मा परदिशो वर्धयन्त्यादर्दिरो भुवना दर्दरीमि || Rigveda (VIII.100.4)

    We need to translate these verses in English to know what this Jarita tribe was !

    Ranasaheb is requested to do a favour in the matter.
    Laxman Burdak

  13. #53
    Search on internet shows that जरित has following meaning in Hindi dictionary:

    जरित वि. [सं.जरा+इतच्.] बुड्ढा। वि. =जटित। (see - http://pustak.org:4300/bs/home.php?mean=32031)

    The word जरित appears in - रामचरितमानस:बालकाण्ड 7

    भूप बचन सुनि सहज सुहाए। जरित कनक मनि पलँग डसाए॥

    We have some information about this tribe from Mahabharata:

    Jarita (Sanskrit: जरित) was a certain female bird of the species called Sarngika, whose story is told in the Mahabharata. The saint Mandapala, who returned from the shades because he had no son, assumed the form of a male bird, and by her had four sons. He then abandoned her. In the conflagration of the Khandava Forest she showed great devotion in the protection of her children, and they were eventually saved through the influence of Mandapala over the god of fire. Their names were Jaritari, Sarisrikta, Stambamitra, and Drona. They were "interpreters of the Vedas;" and there are hymns of the Rigveda bearing the names of the second and the third.

    **********************************
    It is important to search about Jarita and Saint Mandapala
    Laxman Burdak

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by rakeshdhaka View Post
    Sab Bhaio ko Ram-2,
    Bhaio kuch maine maharastra ki ek site se liya tha jo nimanlikhit hai.

    Dhamale/Dhaka/Dhake

    Lineage: ''Brahmavansha'' alias ''Yaduvansha'' alias ''Harivansha'' alias “Nagvansha.

    Kingdom: Dwarkapattan (Dwarka in Gujarat), Vidarbha (Maharastra), Burhanpur (Madhya Pradesh),Hoshiarpur (Punjab)

    Colour of throne, canopy, sign (''Nishan''), and Horse (''Varu''): Red
    Heraldic sign (''Nishan''): Rudra on flagpole
    Clan god (''Kuladaivat''): VishnuNarayan

    Clan object (''Devak''): Kadamb Tree (Anthocephalus indicus Tree)
    Guru: Munjalmuni
    Gotra: 'Chandale' (For this See also Chandela )
    Veda: Yajurveda
    Mantra: Gayatri mantra

    'Surnames:-' Ajmate, Aale, Uchle, Umbrde, Kathore, Karodikar, Khagol, Khandal, Kharane, Kharag, Khilate, Ganeem, Gane, Gandhe, Gande, Chandrabal, Chitod, Chokhad, Jawre, Jasood, Dhake, Talekar, Dandle, Dandale, Daleem, Nawre, Nigedhe, Pakhare, Bakte, Bakeekar, Bapgare, Burbhe, Bhanwell, Yawle, Dewale, Lande, Waket, Waldkar, Vasand, Shirgadkar, Hirpe, Bakre. (Total 43)

    'Shri. Sharad Dhamale' MLA from Mulshi


    Thanks,

    Rakesh Dhaka
    Rakeshji,

    Dhake word here is Maharashtrian. Can we know distribution of Dhake in Maharashtra?

    Regards,
    Laxman Burdak

  15. #55

    Jat- the term origins, history, etymology etc.

    Subject of the thread

    While I consider every topic concerning the identity and life of the Jats important, I would prefer if we concentrate on the subject of the thread as far as possible. I find that sometimes the topic under discussion gets burried under posts, which though valiable in their own place, through no direct or indirect light on the issue under discussion. To revert to the topic I wish to submit that in my opinion the term 'Jat' or 'jATa' (to use the transliterated form of the term as we write it in Sanskrit) and its history and antiquity, should be examined independently of the antiquity and identit of the people who are called and call themselves 'Jats' today. I think there is very little disagreement on the vedic Aryan connecton of these people.Right from the age of the Samhitas down to milleniums of our literary tradition, including technical works in Sanskrit on various subjects like gramar, maths, asronomy and , we come across references which can be unquestioably construed to be connected with these very people. No doubt, the most important tool for tracing this link is a patient and historically valid study of the clans, a feature so very integral to the life of the Jats till this day.For the present I would like to focus on the term 'Jat'.
    Jaatya : Yaska (circa 800 B.C.E), The celebrated author of Nirukta (the science of vedic etymology) includes the term jaatya' in the list of vedic words whose meaning had become obscure. Then he explains it as- 'jaatya aatnaaro(aatnaarah) bhavati'. It means jaatya is a roaming mendicant with long locks of hair. Evidently Yaska reaches at the basic word jataa to which the suffix ya is added.
    Hukam Singh Pawaria (Pawar) in his volumnous work on Jats has tried to
    trace the term Jat here by a very laboriousprocess. He proposes that the explanation aatnaaro(rah) by Yaska should be taken to efer to the aatan i.e. skin folds that the jat gets on his heels by working hard in the fields.I am afraid such a construction of meaning does not stand before any reasonable scrutiny.We need not go much beyond the simple explanation offered by Yaska. Till very recently we could see the common phenomina of mendicants with long locks of hair going about the country side.
    Regretably Dahiya has changed the very text of Yaska from aatnaro to jaatnaaro. I think such convenience is not permissible in scholarly circles.No further comments are required as far as Dahiy'a comments in this context are concerned.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by drssrana2003 View Post
    aatan i.e. skin folds that the jat gets on his heels
    Aatan = Blister
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

  17. #57
    Jaatya (जाटया) in Rajasthani is a word used for Jat in down grading sense. There is a market in Sikar known as Jatya Bajar. It was founded by a Jat so the Jagirdars started calling it Jatya Bajar.

    B S Dahiya on Page 385 has given meaning to this:

    Jatya Atnaro thus becomes easily intelligible as meaning "nomads like Jats or belonging to Jat(s)".

    What looks to me is that Jatya Atnaro is adopted from Prakrat Rajasthani particularly from Braj area which specifies आटण वारो जाट means Jat with a blister.

    Rana Saheb what can be exact translation of jaatya aatnaaro ?

    Regards,
    Last edited by lrburdak; December 1st, 2009 at 10:03 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

  18. #58

    Jat- the term origins, history, etymology etc

    Quote Originally Posted by Milu View Post
    Aatan = Blister


    Atan= blister

    Yes, but after it has been cured and the skin has hardened.

  19. #59
    We have complete Yaska's Nirukta ed. by L. Sarup at URL:

    http://tiger.bun.kyoto-u.ac.jp/mtoku..._texts/nir.txt

    I reproduce from this URL the phrase we are discussing जाटय आटनारो:

    1,14.yatho.etad.yathaa.ca.api.pratiita.arthaani.syus.ta thaa.enaany.aacakSiirann.iti.

    1,14.santy.alpa.prayogaah.kRto.apy.aikapadikaa.yathaa. vratatir.damuunaa.jaaTya.aaTNaaro.jaagaruuko.darvihomii.iti

    1,7.jaritaa.garitaa

    We have one more source available about this phrase at URL:

    http://vedavid.org/nirukta/N1.html

    etenaivottaraH pratyuktaH |

    yatho etad.h yathaa chaapi pratiitaarthaani syustatheinaanyaachakshiiranniti santyalpaprayogaaH kR^ito'pyaikapadikaa yathaa vratatirdamuunaa jaaTya aaTNaaro jaagaruuko darvihomiiti |
    Last edited by lrburdak; December 1st, 2009 at 10:18 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

  20. #60

    Jat - the term origins, history, etymology etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Jaatya (जाटया) in Rajasthani is a word used for Jat in down grading sense. There is a market in Sikar known as Jatya Bajar. It was founded by a Jat so the Jagirdars started calling it Jatya Bajar.
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post

    Rana Saheb what can be exact translation of jaatya aatnaaro ?

    Regards,
    ALaxman ji,

    The term I have quoted from Yaska's Nirukta is jATya ( the first 'A' long and the second 'a' short and hard 'T' in the middle). Independently without 'sandhi' it would stand alone as 'jATyah'. Immediately Followed by the long 'A' in ATnAro the 'h' representing the visargas ( is elited .Yaska explains that the term jATya stands for a wandering monk with long hair lock. Obviously Yaska reaches at the root word 'jaTA' with the derivative suffix 'ya, being quite visible here.
    As Icould understand you are referring to the term 'jaTiyA' which is quite different in age and meaning. Surely this later day term, as rightly pointed out by you, is used in a downgrading (pejorative) sense. And we are not unaware of the historical westward tradition of the term 'jATa' getting a raw deal. Incidentally in this 'bias' lies the key to understand the source and the people who first used it in that sense and why. We have to look west-towards the Arabs, the Turks and the persians. We can ask ourselves the questions 'did the Brahmanical tradition black us out as they failed to recognise us byour current caste lable,e.g. JAT? Has not the same tradition delved on our clans throughout the several milleniums?

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