:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:Your first line may be true, but your second line is just logicless and if not then can you please put any link for any of Punjab city as I am putting here about Ghaziabad:Originally Posted by vijay123
http://propertybytes.indiaproperty.c...ty-of-tomorrow
http://www.citymayors.com/statistics/urban_growth1.html
Last edited by upendersingh; March 12th, 2010 at 03:04 AM.
No, you dont compare cities like Chandigarh, Mohali with Gaziabad or Noida. Just compare normal cities like Jalandhar, Ludhiana, Amritsar with cities like Meerut, Allahabad, Kanpur. You will see the difference. One point is that people from UP, Bihar and Orissa go to Punjab for emplyment and not vice versa.
Vijay ji, Netas are the mother of corruption. Corruption and nepotism takes birth at high places and power centres percolating down to the lower strata. Right from allocation of party tickets before Assembly/Parliament elections, it manifests itself in recruitment for government posts viz. Tehsildar, Provincial Services (HCS/RAS etc.), DSPs, Teachers, clerks and peons etc. Isn't it an open secret that governments jobs are sold out in auction or given to the relatives of influential politicians depriving common man who do not have any political godfather or purchasing power making them to suffer in silence. I know some HCS officers in Haryana (my contemporaries) already inducted into IAS by now who got recruited to their post by virtue of their political links. Isn't it the liability of politicians in power to eliminate this cancerous malaise. It is also true that we, the people, have to share the blame for electing corrupt, dishonest and inefficient candidates imposed upon us by the "Uncrowned Tribal Kings" /feudal lords and the Khaps which continue to get undeserved reverence from their respective communities.
It is high time, the unemployed youth and those suffering in silence should get polarized and rise in rebellion against the unfair practices in recruitment and against other social maladies.
VP Singhji, Brahm, All,
Thanks for comments, ideas and criticism. My previous posts were trying to focus on the diagnosis and causes of rural backwardness. One of my assertions was that urbanization has to happen, given the huge inequilibrium between rural and urban economies. It will happen (as it is happening now) whether you plan for it or not. So better plan for it.
As such, the "ideas" for development that I was putting forth were very general and not a "plan" that could be followed. It is easy to find problems with such ideas and it should be done till the idea gets shaped into an implementable solution.
I'd like to make a few more points based on the discussion:
1. The urbanization need not happen to the extent of Western countries. Probably 20% rural population is the right answer for India (compared to 2% in US). 20% population contributing to 20% of GDP. Maybe more, maybe less. It is a democracy. Govt. can't force people to ruralize or urbanize. Urbanization is happening as a result of the huge inequilibrium. It would cease when a balance is achieved, when rural incomes/lifestyles are high enough to sustain the population that wants to live a rural lifestyle.
2. The equilibrium won't be achieved overnight. Say the magic no. is 20%. That still means urbanization of 50% of population- that is a huge number. We are looking at 5 decades at the least. Again, please note that the solution is not to force people to live in cities. Just living in cities is not going to change anything. You first need the rural population to have skills apart from agriculture. You then need employment opportunities for them. The marriage of these two requirements can happen on an economically sustainable scale only in a town/city--> please note this, the urbanization needs to follow these two conditions, it can't precede it.
3. I agree with Brahm that building 500/600 new cities/towns from scratch would create havoc. Again, the idea is not to build concrete islands in middle of nowhere. For 70-80% of India to "urbanize", existing cities would have to become bigger, many towns would have to become cities, many villages would have to become towns. And you don't pick and choose today on who becomes what. It happens gradually with time. You create the right conditions (stress again- skill sets and opportunities) and rest follows it. There would be room for many new cities/towns as well. I dont have a number for it and there is no need to chase a number. How many ports do we have right now and how many should we have for a country of our size. How many industrial towns do we have and how many should we have?
4. None of this means that you ignore the existing villages. There is no argument that the existing infrastructure needs to be augmented by leaps and bounds as has been discussed in the thread already. The emphasis should be on education, on equipping the new generation, that has just enrolled in primary schools, with the right skill set.
singhvp (January 18th, 2011)
Corruption of Netas or of general public is a sick reality. There are no ifs and buts about it. But there is something wrong about how every debate on any issue leads to lamenting corruption, politicians- the usual suspects. My argument is not to ignore corruption or inefficiency of the political class. But to not simplify every issue to that dead end.
Let me ask this. Consider India was a corruption less country. Would that have meant high standard of living in rural areas and no poverty, had everything else remained the same? The answer is no. There was much that was wrong with the policies of the past. The situation would have been better, but much would still have been bad.
Much has happened despite corruption/politicians. Politicians all over the world are inherently the same. They are just interested in power. Even the leaders of developed countries take their nations on warpath just for their political survival. The scope for corruption/inefficiency in Indian system is more given the screwed up policies. So it is important to realize that there is much more benefit in attacking a wrong policy than in attacking a wrong person (politician/bureaucrat). Again, doesn't mean you let go the wrong guy. Demand accountability by all means. But don't lose the bigger picture.
Mobile revolution finished the corruption involved in getting a new connection or a dead line activated. Food for thought....
singhvp (January 18th, 2011)
In a democracy, people get the government they deserve- Jefferson.
After elections, people can still hold their elected reps responsible/ accountable, if they want to. There is a protest going on in US- Tea Party Movement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Party_movement
In line with the topic of discussion, I would be keen to know about the initiatives taken by rural population itself.
singhvp (January 18th, 2011)
Dear Kapil, Anju ji, Braham and other honourable participants,
True that given a huge gap in terms of density of population, level of industrialization and per capita income, it would be utopian to imagine levelling our rural infrastructure to the extent of that in Western bloc. Also, it would be imprudent and hypothetical to ape the economic module of “laissez faire” practiced in the EU Block and other developed societies. Our material conditions and ground realities are diametrically opposed to ones prevalent in those societies. (I don’t need to elaborate on this as many of you know better than me). Hence our economic formulations have to be envisioned in a different perspective. But, my contention is that the whopping gap could have been minimised considerably, if intention and efforts were there, which did not happen due to lack of good intention, poor vision and reasons mentioned in the initial write-up. Therefore, the policy makers are main culprits in my opinion. An initiative has to be there to solve any problem which was not taken in right earnest. I agree, urbanisation will not come overnight. It is an evolving process but needs a right direction, clear vision and proper implementation which were missing in case of our rural development. Most of the plans for rural development were either ill-conceived, getting bogged down in bureaucratic red tap or mired into economic doldrums at embryonic stage. Who is the culprit?
Incidentally, I would like to give an example of Haryana. Except for the first two tenures of Chaudhary Bansi lal (I think 1969-1977) when Haryana progressed leaps and bounds, no serious effort to develop rural side were ever made by the successive Chief Ministers except for their respective constituencies. The districts, other than Sirsa, Hissar , remained grossly neglected like orphans and the infrastructure created by Ch. Bansi lal could not be expanded further. (Inspite of my divergence in certain matters, I would like to pay my sincere tributes to him - Nahin to hum nire Bagri ke bagri rahte Rohtak Sonepat walon ki Nigah mein-... joking). There was rather a degradation of the infrastructure due to poor maintenance viz. roads, canals, educational institutions and electricity generation etc. The successive governments, however, excelled in corruption, sale-purchase of government posts, political vendetta and in flaunting their “Sukki Chaudharahat” going down the roads in caravan of luxury vehicles/Hummers flanked by their gun-totting sycophants and cronies . The status was being maintained till recently. How efficiently, Hooda Sahab, who enjoyes a much better image, moves in this direction is a matter of conjecture. Rohtak, of course is shining. Let us wait and watch for the report card.
Corruption: I agree, it is a universal phenomenon but its magnitude in our country is considerably high. As per the report of Transparency International (last year), even some African States which are considered epitome of corruption have better ranking than us. Botswana is an example which stood at Number 3 whereas India was having a rank more than 100. So it cannot be denied. It is a major impediment in development and need to be taken seriously.
Recall of Elected Representative (Anju Ji): Well, Anju ji, unfortunately, the provision of plebiscite or referendum giving right of recall was not enshrined in our constitution by our most revered visionaries who drafted this statute-book, unlike in some countries. An amendment will be required, I think
Last edited by singhvp; March 12th, 2010 at 10:08 AM.
Despite of so much migration indian sensus still shows more than 70%, I doubt.
Interesting read on migration in Europe
http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/history.../chapter3.html
i go back to the point of contention from where i started – rural development, though keeping the broader picture of ‘shining india’ in perspective.
one cannot but come to grief if disregards reality for a sufficiently long time. under-development, and its child “poverty”, is the result of a prolonged disregard for the laws governing the universe and more specifically - india. what we see around us are the children of poverty, the grandchildren of under-development (and/or haphazard development), hatred, ignorance, illiteracy, malnutrition, disease, and so on. one will have to wake up pretty early in the morning if one had to tackle a problem by painfully addressing each of its symptoms.
i woke up early this morning and this is what i’ve to say…
we assume, that we are talking here of 70% of indian population that has to fixed. kapil puts the magic no. at 20% to remain in agriculture and contribute 20% towards gdp. i would say that we must strive and make in serious efforts with proper implementation of policies to pull up (say for example) up to 35% (though not an easy task nd pardon my ignorance on economies here… kapil can correct me). and mind you when i say 35%, i haven’t arrived at this figure out of the blue… with the recent focus on organic food and related products, the trends are changing. also, while developing the entrepreneurship in rural areas, we must also focus as well on agriculture related industries to be located within the rural. that being done, we still have 50% of the population to be fixed. now this 50% of the population don’t have to run to cities and stamp themselves as ‘urbanized’, cos we have lucrative rural sector giving 35% to the gdp… just my thoughts, subject to criticism and/or amendments.
now how this can be achieved ?
before i answer that… let me reiterate, once again that agriculture sector in india has performed poorly and eventually we have to recognize that the control was malevolent in its effect, if not in intent. as pointed out by economists and reiterated by members here, urbanization and economic prosperity are bi-directionally related to cause(s) and consequences. to a significant extent, the poverty of india is directly a consequence of the neglect of earlier rural and now haphazard urban growth. gandhi and nehru (kapil, pls excuse me here) as they’ve usually done/doing - get the wrong end of the stick and india suffers.
most of all, must remember that governmental control is exercised by a bureaucracy. it is in the interests of bureaucrats to increase their power by controlling even more severely whatever they can. bureaucrats are only human. and like all humans have an ingrained lust for power… couple that with bounded rationality and imperfect foresight, and give allowances for the operation of the law of unintended consequences… and we have the perfect recipe for disastrous failures, as has been the case in the past.
so, without pointing any fingers this time >>> i would emphasize (... though with very less hope) on the paradigm shift of power from the (widely recognized as corrupt) politicians and bureaucrats to thoughtful people who are visionary, can create wealth and actually help in social welfare.
p.s. : look, and mark my words, of which I’ve said on this portal earlier as well… that agriculture is going to come-up in a very big way in the next decade or so.
! ... be BOLD in what you stand for !
Though it is bit different but related somehow to this subject.
Was Green Revolution a success or unplanned race sponsored by fertilizer/pesticide companies from UK/US whose consequences we are now facing in rural India?
Kapil's statistics are convincing and seems logical. But Brahm's idea of increasing agri sector itself first seems more practical.
jitender bhaisahab, you too are very much associated with the soil. please give us your opinion on your own question to make the discussion more meaningful.
now the buzz word is 'organic'... if i assume (<<< only assuming) that those fertilizer/pesticide cos. brought disaster in india... then what about this new 'buzz', i mean organic ? what about its success in india ?... knowing the fact that the harmful effects of pesticides and fertilizers have reached in पाताल in our soil ?
gains in agriculture will definitely help in rural development... so my assertion that 'agriculture will come up in big way' holds good... correct ?
Last edited by brahmtewatia; March 12th, 2010 at 03:35 PM.
Brahm ji, pardon me for jumping in between..Just wondering..What does this conclusion suggest..Does it suggest to get rid of Democracy, or Keeping democracy in place but but get rid of corrupt officials and politicians. And how this paradigm shift of power can be achieved i.e getting rid of corruption..
honestly speaking atish, i have no clue to that. i tried to wash my hands by blaming the politicians, but kapil and others dragged me back into the discussion.
so, here i am... making that wishful assumption, but with the disclaimer in the post picked up by you >> (... though with very less hope). i didn't want myself, again to be muddled in between throwing blame here and there... guess, no harm in wishful thinking ?
we cannot get rid of democracy, neither the corrupt officials... they are the biggest sore to our democracy and the sick-reality... and off-course, the biggest reason for india's institutional failure.
but, still all hopes are not lost. if we can find person(s) like sreedharan of dmrc (delhi metro) that can bring back almost 'going dead' city of delhi on tracks, then i've all the reasons to be optimistic about... also i dont want myself to be labeled as hypocrite nri doing bakar bakar from outside india... ahahha.
off recently, happened to go through few of nandan nilkeni's (co-founder of Infosys) blogs on "imagining india" (<<< google that) where he made an excellent case why indian cities need to have local control rather than being controlled by state or central government agencies. i am sure that their are few think-tanks, working behind the scenes... hence the reason of my optimism and my assumption.
hope that clarifies :-)
Last edited by brahmtewatia; March 12th, 2010 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Corrected spelling
Thanks Brahm ji for your reply and time..and i think debate is required over state and center government role in the development in a country.
Last edited by vicky84; March 12th, 2010 at 06:38 PM.
Reason for all these problems are:
We are work shirker,selfish and clueless. we are who get choose we are bureaucrats and we are executive. We are govt, and we indian are corrupt and all the thing we are saying to our politician. And we have to change and take responsibility. So I am at fault, any body there who is not in fault.
The major factor of negligence of country side is insufficient funds.That is what this fact justifies."India has said it needs investment of $500 billion in infrastructure during the five years to 2012 and has recently made a renewed push to develop roads with a target of building 20 kilometres (12 miles) per day." Now it depends upon state government and central government. If a state government does not have enough money to spend then it would either seek money from central Government or from World Bank. A Government needs to justify, why it is spending money and what are the possible outcomes from this. For an example, when a new road is built, would it reduce the transport cost for industry by cutting travel times and fuel costs? Will the government be able to generate enough out of the money invested? Problem is that State Government is not able to generate tax revenues out of it policies or because of high subsidies which left a very little room for spending upon infrastructure. To generate higher revenues, a Government would require private investment that is open doors for private firms to jump in its projects. That is Government would require liberalization of its business. For example with the recent liberalization airline business has introduced new low cost carriers to spring up. Jet Airways, Kingfishers and Deccan, cutting the cost of domestic air transport dramatically. Same is with other business.
As author of this thread has questioned that even after 62 years of independence, why the pace of development is so slow and lop-sided?
The answer to that is one should look into number of factors. During the three decades that followed by independence, India's annual average rate of real GDP growth was a mere 3.5 % a year. A throttling system of Government licensing and quotas, which was set up by Nehru, was refined by his daughter, Indira Gandhi to the point where it became virtually impossible for companies to produce anything. The liberalization of this system known as 'the licence raj'; began in 1980's helping real GDP growth to accelerate to an annual average of 6 % per year in that decade. Further extension to this, after financial crisis in 1991, India's second spate of liberalization took place when Dr. Manmohan Singh was finance minister. This liberalization was quite radical, with cuts in taxes and tariffs and the virtual abandonment of licensing and quotas. For more information on this policy please refer to this link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence_Raj. And go through the consequences of this policy.
Here is the snippet from the above link : The Licence Raj is considered to have been significantly reduced in 1991 when India had only two weeks of dollars left: "In return for an IMF bailout, Gold bullion was transferred to London as collateral, the Rupee devalued and economic reforms were forced upon India."[8] The federal government, with Dr Manmohan Singh as finance minister, reduced licensing regulations; lowered tariffs, duties and taxes; and opened up to international trade and investment.[8]
When the main phase of economic liberalization began in 1991, peak import tariffs on non-agricultural goods were 300% and many import tariffs were subject to quantities controls; in 2006-7, the peak tariff was down to 12.5% which is still higher than China's equivalent tariff of about 5 %.
Samar in his one his post raised a very good point about Sez, its significance and what are major barrier to this policy of central government. Sez are essentially a way to introduce new rules favourable for business in specially designated areas but not a country as whole. This facilitate in attracting multinationals to locate their factories, so when the government announced in 2005 that it planned to boost the incentives available in special zones it looked like a way for India to sidestep some of the obstacles to its growth. Companies would exempt from corporate income tax for five years, with further concessions for another ten, and from all customs duties, as well as enjoying faster Sez are approved by central government, land acquisition for the zones is handled locally(State Government). And in many cases rather than leaving investors to negotiate directly with the existing landowners, state government have been acting intermediator. So this policy has put forward by central Government and leaving state government to negotiate with the private owners for acquisition of a land. The failure of state government in the land acquisition could cause private firm to withdraw from its project. For an example, SEZ planned at Nandigram for a chemical plant that was to be built by an Indonesian conglomerate, the Salim group, and a new car factory at Singrur (though not an sez) for tata motors, India's biggest car maker. Another example is when Laxmi Mittal threatens to exit its 20 billion steel projects in Orissa and J'khand because of delays in land acquisition. Although Firm was supposed to look after the acquisition but a state government should facilitate it. In that case either firm has to look for some other state in India, or just withdraw its project and look for some other countries to invest in. If a state looses such projects that means that will create an imbalance of growth in a country leading to some states are very far better than others. That means people will be unemployed and poor infrastructure on top of that will also reduce a state economic performance. West Bengal is a very good example where Naxalities are able to hire more and more unemployed people and leaving a country to face internal security threats. That means Government will need to spend more and more money to tackle with such issues and will be left with no money to spend upon infrastructure. That's why our prime minister has described it as a single biggest internal security challenge ever faced by the government.
The major hurlde for a private firm to start a business in India faces infrastructure bottlenecks which is a result of red tape, difficulties of land acquisition. Infrastructure and growth of a country are interrelated. It’s a government responsibility to understand its significance and to cleverly find ways to deal with it. It depends upon Government policies to make it easier for private firm to jump into major projects and make it easier for them to invest in. For example, Roads, railways, ports and the Airports have been outdated and grossly insufficient, adding to the cost of any firm wanting to import components, export finished goods or simply ship their goods to Indian buyers. The electrical supply has been unreliable, forcing firms to take on the cost of producing their own power, which leaves them with a lot of wasted capacity. Complex labour laws make it very difficult for a firm to start a business in India.
More and more private investment (Foreign,Domestic) would not only fill the Government reserves, but will also facilitate in raising employment, more infrastructure development and eventually would lift the GDP of a country which will lead us to a Developed country.
Last edited by vicky84; March 14th, 2010 at 09:22 AM.
singhvp (January 18th, 2011)
Kapil and others,
There can be no argument this issue should not be oversimplified to the dead end of corrupt politics. But, you would agree that dynamics of economy of any particular society are supposed to be determined and controlled by the political forces, not by a common man. Therefore the epicenter of all discussions on underdevelopment, which is an outcome of the flawed politico-economic formulations and crude vision of our unduly honoured politicians – thanks to our lower esteem. Now the question arises what prompts the political powers to formulate such flawed economic policies detrimental to rural development. It is a matter of long debate bringing into its ambit multiple factors which might lead to a little digression. Therefore in a nutshell, I would like to add that contours of our economy are being decided by captains of market & industry thereby ruling the country by proxy - by generously sharing their dividends with corrupt and highly selfish politicians overtly or covertly in the guise of ‘Party Donation’, offering them lavish hospitalities during their foreign sojourns (where they keep going for convalescing in the name of orientation tours or for signing the MOUs which is very easy to accomplish in their their posh cabins in India with the advent of Internet). For obvious reasons, the captains of Indian business and industry do not have any interest in rural development until the time it becomes beneficial to their business empires and divert the conduit of nation’s wealth towards development of places of their interest only. Political parties are just an offshoot of wealthy business mafia and play subservient to them for their vested interest. Present economy is illegitimate and physically challenged child of the wealthy industrialists , traders and other mafia who keep switching over their loyalties even ditching their political allies whenever they venture to bring some rural oriented legislation once in a blue moon.
Mobile revolution is a reality and need to be acknowledged.
To avoid further digression whole gamut of economic issues need to be discussed in length and breadth under a different thread in due course, I think.
Last edited by singhvp; March 14th, 2010 at 09:46 AM.
VP Singh ji,
I beg to differ. Rural Development is ignored due to the fact that a Government does not have enough money to support it. Not even in some developed cities. Gurgaon is a very good example of that. we need to think about the past development, what were the loopholes in the system. Whether the economic reform required for a cash flow in a country was enough to support any development. You have been stressing on rural development. How many projects in all a Government can support on its own. State Government like Haryana does not have enough funds in its reserves to support major projects. You are blaming wealthy industrialist for ignorance. Mukesh Ambani and his side of Reliance are engaged in India's most ambitious urban development project yet. It requires lot of funding to support such projects. One of his project in Haryana, to develop Sez will not only benefits in Urban Development but also would create a lot of jobs in the state. Unfortunately due to global recession that project has been put on hold but land acquisition has already been done. At present our Government cannot support such initiatives on its own and thus would require hands of these wealthiest industrialist.
Atish ji,
Thanks for your thoughtful analysis. After having received similar objective assessments from some other distinguished members I seem to have been exhausted all weapons in my arsenal at present for defence of my post. It has helped me in a great way to refine my understanding on the subject. But I still beg to differ on certain points, especially location of SEZ and shortage of money in State's coffers and acquittal of the politician or State for that matter. Will revert with facts and figures in due course. After having acknowledged existence of the problem by majority of viewers - there are conflicting views about the causes. More comments on causes and remedies will be welcome. Meanwhile, I cannot help admire your deep knowledge and grasp on the subject and a very soft and refined texture of post.
Last edited by singhvp; March 14th, 2010 at 02:56 PM.
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