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Thread: Rural under-development- An analysis

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by brahmtewatia View Post
    samar, i rate your post # 9 as excellent, as seen by me for quite some time. though, this also holds true that VP has a very viable reasoning in his counter post.

    honestly, i would appreciate your further discussion rather than renouncing from the discussion at this stage. please do participate. i do not want this (turning good) discussion meet the same foreordained fate. hope you will oblige.
    Sir Brahm, Not an issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by vpsingh59 View Post
    Kapil and others,

    But, you would agree that dynamics of economy of any particular society are supposed to be determined and controlled by the political forces, not by a common man. Therefore the epicenter of all discussions on underdevelopment, which is an outcome of the flawed politico-economic formulations and crude vision of our unduly honoured politicians --thanks to our lower esteem. Now the question arises what prompts the political powers to formulate such flawed economic policies detrimental to rural development. . Present economy is illegitimate and physically challenged child of the wealthy industrialists , traders and other mafia who keep switching over their loyalties even ditching their political allies whenever they venture to bring some rural oriented legislation once in a blue moon.

    To avoid further digression whole gamut of economic issues need to be discussed in length and breadth under a different thread in due course, I think.
    Mr Singh, I would try to take it a bit further. Like you have started your incipient post with independence story. A generation or nearly a generation has passed since then.


    It is a kind of fashion among youth nowadays to blame Nehru/Gandhi with piquant and risible anecdotes for everything [read everything ] what we are countering presently . May be it helps in easing out our current social and economical responsblity arisen due to past inablity of leaders of that epoch. But for a moment, lets pause and reflect calmly that what was the vision held by other contemporary leaders of Nehru/Gandhi era.? Any Idea.? Any hint. Answer to this is that almost all of them had same vision about development. Any person born in that era would have thought the same things most likely. Lets suppose you are JL Nehru. What options had you had to put in to a naive nation's growth. Possibly, something which was going in the world and what was going in the world in those times.? Soviet Russia's Socialism Philosophy and USA's Capitalism. Right ? In 1947 , World had already witnessed WW2 and a great depression. So What would have prompted You as JL Nehru to adopt? An already sunk Capitalism in the abyss of depression OR Depression immune Soviet's Socialism. To explain it further , I will be shamelessly quoting Aris Hobsbawn from his work Age of Extremes . He proposes two kind of models to be adopted at that time as :-


    Model A:


    1.These countries, which embraced A , had their economy stagnant during the periods between 1914 and 1939.

    2. The industrial production fell by about ONE-THIRD between 1929 and 1931.


    3. During 1929 and 1938 their share of world’s manufactured goods decreased.


    4. The unemployment was between 10% and 18% during 1920s. And during Great Depression it was between 22% and 44%.


    5. The inflation rate was explosive sometimes reaching levels where one person’s life savings would only fetch a 'drink in a café'.

    Model B


    1. These countries, which embraced B, had a robust economy during the pervious 30 years.


    2. In these countries the industrial production TRIPLED from 1929 to 1940.


    3. Their share of worlds manufactured goods almost QUADRUPLED.


    4. There was virtually NO unemployment.


    5. There was virtually NO inflation even during the Great Depression.


    6. These countries completely escaped Great Depression of 30s.


    Now, me as a JL Nehru as the head of a newly founded state would have choosen the model B and in my opinion, you too. Correct me?

    Model A represent Capitalism while model B represent Socialism. Best these seems the torrent at those time but not in 2010 at all. Socialism has failed in its own home as it was doomed to because of its unnatural proclivity.

    So that is the root. Borrowing the models from outside always fail. Sooner or later Capitalism too will be in same place. So Sir Brahm now found a new way to shift blame from desi politicians to international one. Karl Marx hmm? Today what are we and how are we is the direct ramification of model B. But gents, that was gold according to that world situations. Now it is a ''buyer's regret''.

    As far as lower-self esteem is concerned, we have it because of our ''Grandfather of Independent Nation'' - Lord Mclaay . He instilled in our already slave mind that everything non-British is inferior. And anything inferior causes low- self esteem. It engulfs confidence and independency of minds and thoughts which was the goal of Grandfather. He plundered everything with the curriculam of english alzebra. Till today we would appreciate that - Angrez kitne aandy sai, dekh, yo kar diya, wo kar diya. Sooner we burn the hobgoblin of grandfather, faster we would move ahead in genuine way and in our style.

    So your current generation of politicians are merely the upgradation [ or downgradation ] of British era. Colonial hangover would still take decades to be washed but when whole world is now being westernised culturly and economicaly, so no salvation apparantly unless we devise a system of development which purely would be in nature of our ethnicity. For example:- Mohammad Yunus, The Noble Awardee from Bangladesh.

    Moving further , realising the importance of Indian population as a big investment asset , paleolithic way of strengthening the agricultural, dairy products, rural tourism , could be a few but strong innovative ventures to help the rural sector without urbanising it unneccessarily . Urban population is hughely dependent on rural sector for milk, vegetables and grains. Government may be cold but people of rural area always have this opporutnity open. Don't expect government to baby feed the progress in to your hungary stomach. You will have to vouch for your hunger. Enterpreneuring of our blood professions are the ways and quiet easiest ways.

    Rural folks are deft in these basic professions for centuaries. So why to look at outside and seek service industeries to knock at door step to acquire their land. As I said earlier, they only lack in guidance.

    Corruption , it would not take more than five minutes to understand and accept that every human group of any kind is doomed to corrupt. It is one of the inherent quality of humanity. Our Cro-Magnan and Neanderthal - chimp fathers were corrupt too. They had stolen food from their brothers. But to live and function harmoniusly we are expected to practise the lately induced rules[ like 10,000years back] of society, governance. But alas! inherent,innate base qualities/motivations in our genome always trumps the newly induced codes of behaviour. As we have evolved past the survival , we tend to behave more socially and for this to appear practise there MUST be a homogenius enviornment of culture, values, ethics. Indians, overall firmly and dedicatively believe in easy forgving, forgetting and classic '' Sab Kuch Chalta Hai Yaar, Aisi Taisi Karaye Duniya, Apne ko Kya''. Without proper and suffice checks in any governance system development remains down-played. May be it is true that we better understand and behave onto the aria of flagellation better than following rules. But who will whip our lazy asses? I leave you here with the question of the millenium.
    Last edited by Samarkadian; March 14th, 2010 at 04:36 PM.
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Samarkadian For This Useful Post:

    singhvp (January 18th, 2011)

  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Samarkadian View Post
    Sir Brahm, Not an issue.



    Mr Singh, I would try to take it a bit further. Like you have started your incipient post with independence story. A generation or nearly a generation has passed since then.


    It is a kind of fashion among youth nowadays to blame Nehru/Gandhi with piquant and risible anecdotes for everything [read everything ] what we are countering presently . May be it helps in easing out our current social and economical responsblity arisen due to past inablity of leaders of that epoch. But for a moment, lets pause and reflect calmly that what was the vision held by other contemporary leaders of Nehru/Gandhi era.? Any Idea.? Any hint. Answer to this is that almost all of them had same vision about development. Any person born in that era would have thought the same things most likely. Lets suppose you are JL Nehru. What options had you had to put in to a naive nation's growth. Possibly, something which was going in the world and what was going in the world in those times.? Soviet Russia's Socialism Philosophy and USA's Capitalism. Right ? In 1947 , World had already witnessed WW2 and a great depression. So What would have prompted You as JL Nehru to adopt? An already sunk Capitalism in the abyss of depression OR Depression immune Soviet's Socialism. To explain it further , I will be shamelessly quoting Aris Hobsbawn from his work Age of Extremes . He proposes two kind of models to be adopted at that time as :-


    Model A:


    1.These countries, which embraced A , had their economy stagnant during the periods between 1914 and 1939.

    2. The industrial production fell by about ONE-THIRD between 1929 and 1931.


    3. During 1929 and 1938 their share of world’s manufactured goods decreased.


    4. The unemployment was between 10% and 18% during 1920s. And during Great Depression it was between 22% and 44%.


    5. The inflation rate was explosive sometimes reaching levels where one person’s life savings would only fetch a 'drink in a café'.

    Model B


    1. These countries, which embraced B, had a robust economy during the pervious 30 years.


    2. In these countries the industrial production TRIPLED from 1929 to 1940.


    3. Their share of worlds manufactured goods almost QUADRUPLED.


    4. There was virtually NO unemployment.


    5. There was virtually NO inflation even during the Great Depression.


    6. These countries completely escaped Great Depression of 30s.


    Now, me as a JL Nehru as the head of a newly founded state would have choosen the model B and in my opinion, you too. Correct me?

    Model A represent Capitalism while model B represent Socialism. Best these seems the torrent at those time but not in 2010 at all. Socialism has failed in its own home as it was doomed to because of its unnatural proclivity.

    So that is the root. Borrowing the models from outside always fail. Sooner or later Capitalism too will be in same place. So Sir Brahm now found a new way to shift blame from desi politicians to international one. Karl Marx hmm? Today what are we and how are we is the direct ramification of model B. But gents, that was gold according to that world situations. Now it is a ''buyer's regret''.

    As far as lower-self esteem is concerned, we have it because of our ''Grandfather of Independent Nation'' - Lord Mclaay . He instilled in our already slave mind that everything non-British is inferior. And anything inferior causes low- self esteem. It engulfs confidence and independency of minds and thoughts which was the goal of Grandfather. He plundered everything with the curriculam of english alzebra. Till today we would appreciate that - Angrez kitne aandy sai, dekh, yo kar diya, wo kar diya. Sooner we burn the hobgoblin of grandfather, faster we would move ahead in genuine way and in our style.

    So your current generation of politicians are merely the upgradation [ or downgradation ] of British era. Colonial hangover would still take decades to be washed but when whole world is now being westernised culturly and economicaly, so no salvation apparantly unless we devise a system of development which purely would be in nature of our ethnicity. For example:- Mohammad Yunus, The Noble Awardee from Bangladesh.

    Moving further , realising the importance of Indian population as a big investment asset , paleolithic way of strengthening agriculture , dairy products and rural tourism could be a few but strong innovative ventures to help the rural sector without urbanising it unneccessarily . Urban population is hughely dependent on rural sector for milk, vegetables and grains. Government may be cold but people of rural area always have this opporutnity open. Don't expect government to baby feed the progress in to your hungary stomach. You will have to vouch for your hunger. Enterpreneuring of our blood professions are the ways and quiet easiest ways.

    Rural folks are deft in these basic professions for centuaries. So why to look at outside and seek service industeries to knock at door step to acquire their land. As I said earlier, they only lack in guidance.

    Corruption , it would not take more than five minutes to understand and accept that every human group of any kind is doomed to corrupt. It is one of the inherent quality of humanity. Our Cro-Magnan and Neanderthal - chimp fathers were corrupt too. They had stolen food from their brothers. But to live and function harmoniusly we are expected to practise the lately induced rules[ like 10,000years back] of society, governance. But alas! inherent,innate base qualities/motivations in our genome always trumps the newly induced codes of behaviour. As we have evolved past the survival , we tend to behave more socially and for this to appear practise there MUST be a homogenius enviornment of culture, values, ethics. Indians, overall firmly and dedicatively believe in easy forgving, forgetting and classic '' Sab Kuch Chalta Hai Yaar, Aisi Taisi Karaye Duniya, Apne ko Kya''. Without proper and suffice checks in any governance system development remains down-played. May be it is true that we better understand and behave onto the aria of flagellation better than following rules. But who will whip our lazy asses? I leave you here with the question of the millenium.
    Dear Samar,

    First of all thanks for your comments which are very clear to me this time. A great & deep analysis which I really admire from the core of my hearth and not just a rhetoric.

    Definitely If I were JL Nehru I would have gone for Model B which was most suitable for India given the prevalent state of affairs. Having said that I have my reservations about Pandit Nehru's intentions behind adopting the so-called 'Nehruvian Socialism" an indigenous name for soviet brand communism. For one, the public mood was against anything associated with imperialism and capitalism was considered a bourgeois concept propounded by the colonial masters they had just overthrown. Nehru was wise enough to gauge public mood and aspirations. Second, before independence there was one section of left oriented freedom fighters (including Bhagat Singh) with radical agenda led by Marxists and social democrats who were for socio-economic transformation on the line of Soviet socialism after independence. To preempt any socialist movement by the erstwhile home grown communists Nehru thougt it proper to follow the Soviet Module. I doubt Nehru's credentials as a socialist. It was out of these two political compulsions in my opinion which may be subjected to free and fair criticism. Inspite of Nehru's claims of following Soviet module in the form of 5-year plans, I do not think it was followed in toto. Soviet module was followed as far as making heavy infrastructure like setting up steel plants (Bhilai, Bokaro), dams (like Bhakhra) with an eye on Soviet collaboration. So we did not adopt the totalitarian economy but preferred a mixed one leaving space for private players. But, I do not think it was a wrong decision. Why we could not achieve that level of development which was witnessed in Soviet Union is a matter of discussion.

    Your idea of Paleolithic way of strengthening the agriculture, dairy products, rural tourism makes great sense in my view. Let other send their comments.
    Last edited by singhvp; March 14th, 2010 at 06:26 PM.

  4. #63
    shaded blue:
    samar, what your entire write-up (though written excellent) has to do with development and/or non-development ? what do you want to say ?... that we (nehru) followed socialistic set-up (model-B) that is why we are developed/under-developed ? (... also answered by mr. vp singh in actual context)

    or, we didn't followed capitalist set-up (model-A)
    that is why we are developed/under-developed ?

    even your write-up after blue doesn't clarify that. i would like to give the title of your previous post # 9 as india shining aka bjp style... where you have given a rosy picture of development in and around delhi or major haryana cities. i am in a fix whether you are speaking for or against the motion. combine both your posts in the 'extracted meaning'... and i find a total chaos of thoughts.


    shaded red:
    this makes sense !... same as suggested by me and other members in the previous posts.


    Quote Originally Posted by samarkadian
    It is a kind of fashion among youth nowadays to blame Nehru/Gandhi with piquant and risible anecdotes for everything [read everything ] what we are countering presently . May be it helps in easing out our current social and economical responsblity arisen due to past inablity of leaders of that epoch. But for a moment, lets pause and reflect calmly that what was the vision held by other contemporary leaders of Nehru/Gandhi era.? Any Idea.? Any hint. Answer to this is that almost all of them had same vision about development. Any person born in that era would have thought the same things most likely. Lets suppose you are JL Nehru. What options had you had to put in to a naive nation's growth. Possibly, something which was going in the world and what was going in the world in those times.? Soviet Russia's Socialism Philosophy and USA's Capitalism. Right ? In 1947 , World had already witnessed WW2 and a great depression. So What would have prompted You as JL Nehru to adopt? An already sunk Capitalism in the abyss of depression OR Depression immune Soviet's Socialism. To explain it further , I will be shamelessly quoting Aris Hobsbawn from his work Age of Extremes . He proposes two kind of models to be adopted at that time as :-

    Model A:


    1.These countries, which embraced A , had their economy stagnant during the periods between 1914 and 1939.


    2. The industrial production fell by about ONE-THIRD between 1929 and 1931.


    3. During 1929 and 1938 their share of world’s manufactured goods decreased.


    4. The unemployment was between 10% and 18% during 1920s. And during Great Depression it was between 22% and 44%.


    5. The inflation rate was explosive sometimes reaching levels where one person’s life savings would only fetch a 'drink in a café'.


    Model B


    1. These countries, which embraced B, had a robust economy during the pervious 30 years.


    2. In these countries the industrial production TRIPLED from 1929 to 1940.


    3. Their share of worlds manufactured goods almost QUADRUPLED.


    4. There was virtually NO unemployment.


    5. There was virtually NO inflation even during the Great Depression.


    6. These countries completely escaped Great Depression of 30s.


    Now, me as a JL Nehru as the head of a newly founded state would have choosen the model B and in my opinion, you too. Correct me?


    Model A represent Capitalism while model B represent Socialism. Best these seems the torrent at those time but not in 2010 at all. Socialism has failed in its own home as it was doomed to because of its unnatural proclivity.


    So that is the root. Borrowing the models from outside always fail. Sooner or later Capitalism too will be in same place. So Sir Brahm now found a new way to shift blame from desi politicians to international one. Karl Marx hmm? Today what are we and how are we is the direct ramification of model B. But gents, that was gold according to that world situations. Now it is a ''buyer's regret''.

    As far as lower-self esteem is concerned, we have it because of our ''Grandfather of Independent Nation'' - Lord Mclaay . He instilled in our already slave mind that everything non-British is inferior. And anything inferior causes low- self esteem. It engulfs confidence and independency of minds and thoughts which was the goal of Grandfather. He plundered everything with the curriculam of english alzebra. Till today we would appreciate that - Angrez kitne aandy sai, dekh, yo kar diya, wo kar diya. Sooner we burn the hobgoblin of grandfather, faster we would move ahead in genuine way and in our style.

    So your current generation of politicians are merely the upgradation [ or downgradation ] of British era. Colonial hangover would still take decades to be washed but when whole world is now being westernised culturly and economicaly, so no salvation apparantly unless we devise a system of development which purely would be in nature of our ethnicity. For example:- Mohammad Yunus, The Noble Awardee from Bangladesh.

    Moving further , realising the importance of Indian population as a big investment asset , paleolithic way of strengthening the agricultural, dairy products, rural tourism , could be a few but strong innovative ventures to help the rural sector without urbanising it unneccessarily . Urban population is hughely dependent on rural sector for milk, vegetables and grains. Government may be cold but people of rural area always have this opporutnity open. Don't expect government to baby feed the progress in to your hungary stomach. You will have to vouch for your hunger. Enterpreneuring of our blood professions are the ways and quiet easiest ways.

    Rural folks are deft in these basic professions for centuaries. So why to look at outside and seek service industeries to knock at door step to acquire their land. As I said earlier, they only lack in guidance.


    Corruption , it would not take more than five minutes to understand and accept that every human group of any kind is doomed to corrupt. It is one of the inherent quality of humanity. Our Cro-Magnan and Neanderthal - chimp fathers were corrupt too. They had stolen food from their brothers. But to live and function harmoniusly we are expected to practise the lately induced rules[ like 10,000years back] of society, governance. But alas! inherent,innate base qualities/motivations in our genome always trumps the newly induced codes of behaviour. As we have evolved past the survival , we tend to behave more socially and for this to appear practise there MUST be a homogenius enviornment of culture, values, ethics. Indians, overall firmly and dedicatively believe in easy forgving, forgetting and classic '' Sab Kuch Chalta Hai Yaar, Aisi Taisi Karaye Duniya, Apne ko Kya''. Without proper and suffice checks in any governance system development remains down-played. May be it is true that we better understand and behave onto the aria of flagellation better than following rules. But who will whip our lazy asses? I leave you here with the question of the millenium.
    Last edited by brahmtewatia; March 14th, 2010 at 10:38 PM.
    ! ... be BOLD in what you stand for !
    !! ... i've the simplest tastes, i'm always satisfied with the best !!
    !!! ... be yourself, everyone else is already taken !!!

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by samarkadian
    So that is the root. Borrowing the models from outside always fail. Sooner or later Capitalism too will be in same place. So Sir Brahm now found a new way to shift blame from desi politicians to international one. Karl Marx hmm?
    karl marx !!! who is karl marx ???

    when did i shift my blame from desi politicians to international one's ?

    instead, in my previous post addressed to atish, i even withdrew my pointing fingers from desi politicians and talked of my suggestions under the assumption of a utopian set-up.


    Quote Originally Posted by brahmtewatia
    so, without pointing any fingers this time >>> i would emphasize (... though with very less hope) on the paradigm shift of power from the (widely recognized as corrupt) politicians and bureaucrats to thoughtful people who are visionary, can create wealth and actually help in social welfare.
    ! ... be BOLD in what you stand for !
    !! ... i've the simplest tastes, i'm always satisfied with the best !!
    !!! ... be yourself, everyone else is already taken !!!

  6. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by vpsingh59 View Post
    The plight of rural poor continues unabated. Majority of villages in India, including Haryana, UP, MP or Rajasthan which are focus of our attention on this forum, still remain without basic civic amenities viz. road, rail/bus service, education, health services, telephone, playgrounds, not to speak of cyber café , pub or discotheque which are still considered as ingredients of alien culture.


    Now the question is, even after 62 years of independence, why the pace of development is so slow and lop-sided? Why the developmental activities are centered round the big/metropolitan cities only? In my perception the underdevelopment and backwardness of villages is due to a cumulative effect to the following factors:

    (a) Dynastic politics:

    (b) Indifferent attitude of educated youth towards politics and development of their area:

    (c) Lack of political awareness among the villagers:

    (d) Malpractices in election:

    (e) Gotra Factor in election :
    -------------
    Dear OP,

    Thanks for this excellent post. But my little brain fails to comprehend the exact meaning . Are you trying to say that all the above underlined problems are rural specific and are solely/vastly responcible for the under development of the rural areas. Arent these problems equally relevant to urban as well and if they are than how come they differenciate between urban and rural. If you could explain, please. I agree with Samar that its too much of generalisation and the post somewhere fails to explain (people with little knowledge like me) how these are related to the rural specific perspective which the post is about.

    Also could you please also tell me that whether a city like Sirsa is urban in ur dictionary or rural.

    I didnt go through all the posts so if this is already addressed, apologies.
    Thanks
    Last edited by VirJ; March 15th, 2010 at 06:55 AM. Reason: How misspelled
    जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।

    दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे

  7. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by vipin80 View Post
    Dear VP,

    Thanks for this excellent post. But my little brain fails to comprehend the exact meaning . Are you trying to say that all the above underlined problems are rural specific and are solely/vastly responcible for the under development of the rural areas. Arent these problems equally relevant to urban as well and if they are than how come they differenciate between urban and rural. If you could explain, please. I agree with Samar that its too much of generalisation and the post somewhere fails to explain (people with little knowledge like me) how these are related to the rural specific perspective which the post is about.

    Also could you please also tell me that whether a city like Sirsa is urban in ur dictionary or rural.

    I didnt go through all the posts so if this is already addressed, apologies.
    Thanks
    Dear Vipin,


    Thanks for your participation, albeit a little late. As far as your realisation about your brain is considered, I do not seem be agreeable because going by your profile you seem to have quite a reasonable exposure to the outside world. Moreover, there are no fixed parameters for judging the brain or its offspring - the intellect. Also the area you hail from is no more a pure “Bagar” and is much more advanced than my desolate hamlet. I think we all are in the same boat, with different perceptions which are determined by our environs and opportunities available to us. Anyway I appreciate your humility and without delving into linguistic and philosophical nuances, come to your query.


    There is no denying the fact that the malaise of under-development is afflicting cities also including your own city Sirsa. But, I hope you would agree the dimensions and magnitude differ. Hence, I thought is proper to discuss in a different format separately once this topic is over. I have equal concern about our brothers in cities as well who had to migrate to cities due to various reasons – inadequacies of rural areas being the one - as already discussed. You may like to go through some very valuable posts by some of our learned participants. (There will not be any exaggeration if I call some of them as crème de la crème).

    Another important guiding principle behind the post being rural-specific was my assumption, which may not be correct, that this forum is Jat Centric and main thrust of Jat community being in rural side I preferred to touch only the rural aspect/side of the issue. Members are, however, free to expand the horizon of this discussion and can take to any heights by bringing into its ambit the developmental problems afflicting cities also.

    By virtue of its Being a district headquarters, Sirsa falls under the category of a city in my opinion.
    Last edited by singhvp; March 15th, 2010 at 08:56 AM.

  8. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by brahmtewatia View Post
    karl marx !!! who is karl marx ???

    when did i shift my blame from desi politicians to international one's ?

    instead, in my previous post addressed to atish, i even withdrew my pointing fingers from desi politicians and talked of my suggestions under the assumption of a utopian set-up.






    Braham, don't play ignorance. You know Marx better than anyone else. Incidentally, I would like to add that inspite of crass failure of our indigenous comrades to make inroads in major parts of India except for the three States Bengal, Tripura and Kerala, I consider Marx a great philosopher mankind has ever seen. It is not his philosophy which has failed, it the leadership in different countries including in India which failed Marx. But the contribution of this great philosopher in revolutionizing 1/3 of the world cannot be undermined, if we undertake a disinterested study of history.

    Disclaimer: I dissociate myself with any particular ideological school of thought when I am on this forum. So please do not read between the lines. I will try my best to be highly apolitical on this forum.

  9. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by vpsingh59 View Post
    Dear Vipin,


    Thanks for your participation, albeit a little late.
    Vijay,

    My whole point basically was your post/s failed to link the problems you stated to the condition of the rural land. You yourself have agreed to the fact that urban india faced similar problems. You says it differ in magnitude. Well that needs to be argued.

    You stated lot of problems and facts but how are they responcible for the rural undevelopment. These are general problems pervalent in India and thats why Samar( I believe) has questioned that. You says politics is a problem but how? If rural and urban face the same problem/s than why they develop( as you say) urban and not rural. I am not saying the facts you stated are responcible or not but want to see how and how much they are directly/indirectly connected to the rural "development" problem.

    Your all ( and of all fellow members) posts are nevertheless Great but for a post which says "an Analysis" i expected a detailed study.

    I think we are responsilble for our current state not the politicians

    P.S I refer OP as original poster who are u in this case, that wasnt mis-spelled.
    Last edited by VirJ; March 15th, 2010 at 03:19 PM.
    जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।

    दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे

  10. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by vipin80 View Post
    Vijay,


    Your all ( and of all fellow members) posts are nevertheless Great but for a post which says "an Analysis" so i expected a detailed study.

    I think we are responsilble for our current state not the politicians

    .
    Vipin. Thanks for the comments. Will stay in touch.

    Oh about that OP, I thought it to be a spelling mistake. Thanks for correcting me.

  11. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by atishmohan View Post
    VP Singh ji,

    I beg to differ. Rural Development is ignored due to the fact that a Government does not have enough money to support it. Not even in some developed cities. Gurgaon is a very good example of that. we need to think about the past development, what were the loopholes in the system. Whether the economic reform required for a cash flow in a country was enough to support any development. You have been stressing on rural development. How many projects in all a Government can support on its own. State Government like Haryana does not have enough funds in its reserves to support major projects. You are blaming wealthy industrialist for ignorance. Mukesh Ambani and his side of Reliance are engaged in India's most ambitious urban development project yet. It requires lot of funding to support such projects. One of his project in Haryana, to develop Sez will not only benefits in Urban Development but also would create a lot of jobs in the state. Unfortunately due to global recession that project has been put on hold but land acquisition has already been done. At present our Government cannot support such initiatives on its own and thus would require hands of these wealthiest industrialist.

    Going by revelations of Baba Ramdev, wealth worth billions of Rupees is stashed away by the corrupt politicians, industrialists and bureaucrats which is kept either in Swiss or Luxembourg banks or wasted in pleasurable activities. That money could be utilized in making better roads, hospitals, educational institutions and other welfare activities in the impoverished rural areas. Mayawat's garland is one example of ill-gotten money possessed by politicians in the name of Party Fund. I do not think there is dearth of money. Allocation of funds at the budgetary stage need to be revamped cutting down the infructuous non-plan expenditure. There is a need to curb the unwarranted, unfruitful and so frequent foreign jaunts by the bureaucrats and politicians which entails huge expenditure towards their stay in luxurious hotels, DA, and transport etc. Majority of them go abroad just for sight seeing, gambling in Casinos or visiting erotic massage parlours. There is hardly any output . Except for a few VVIP visits which are required by the protocol of reciprocity, most of such foreign tours can be stopped/banned altogether. All the deals can be negotiated by our foreign Missions abroad or by video conferencing. Similarly, back home we need to restrain our politicians and bureaucrats to indulge in extravagant activities involving heavy expenditures incurred on local tours, organising seminars and conference in 5-Star hotels dining and wining with rich and famous. All the corrupt bureaucrats found guilty of graft charges should be dismissed with summary/fast track trails and money so recovered should be put in development funds.

    There are so many ways to generate and unearth sufficient funds for development. If that is not enough flood-gates for FDI need to be opened for tapping the huge potential in rural development. You mentioned about SEZ by Ambanis. I know it is proposed to be developed somewhere near Jhajjar which is not very far from Delhi. It will again increase population pressure in NCR creating in equilibrium already discussed. Ideally, its location should have been in a relatively more backward and far flung area like semi-desert areas of Bhiwani Mahendergarh or remote areas of Rajasthan like Churu District etc. giving these areas an opportunity to keep pace with the developing India. Of course by doing so the element of profit to Ambanis would have substantially decreased but their respect in the hearths of lakhs and lakhs of 'have nots' would have increased treating them as true patriots who want to be equal partners in the development of this country.
    Last edited by singhvp; March 21st, 2010 at 01:13 PM.

  12. #71
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    More than money rural development needs determined people like http://www.google.co.in/imgres?imgur...ed=0CBMQ9QEwBQ
    "All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"

    As I shall imagine, so shall I become.

  13. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Samarkadian View Post
    More than money rural development needs determined people like]
    No doubt our society needs people like Sant Balbir Singh Seenchewal who has done wonderful job by cleansing the rivulet with the help of local people, where State fails to deliver. The similar cleansing is needed for the streams of our politics which have been clogged by the weeds of corruption, nepotism and inefficiency. Hope the message of Sant Balbir Singh will reach millions of people who have been waiting in vain for the politicians for a change in their lives. An awakening is really needed.

  14. #73
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    You got to be kidding me to assume that I read all the posts , I read few with concentrations , I stumbled over a few and then I skipped some as well.

    Hopefully that was enough to give me some understanding of what the discussion over here focuses on. Though probably Kapil has said all that I could have but still no harm in repeating the rhetoric ( as already there have been some on the thread itself!).

    Apologies before I start if any body believes I am too late to enter over here. Brahm "Sir" , let me know if i am allowed to enter into the class.

    Ok , so we are talking about rural under development here. And I read that the emphasis is on analysis. First thing , we need to set up a benchmark. You can choose that to be other countries today or India as of 1947 ( let !, ps : hope , using let is not being mathematical ). Now , no matter how hard one tries , setting up a benchmark independent of the contemporary western countries( or for that matter , even the india cities ) is impossible. Reason being that we have seen good quality roads , facilities , electricity supplies etc etc so when we see the other side in the rural india , we get bewildered. The flaw in doing such an comparison is that we tend to stretch too far and also downplay the actual development.
    Let's stop for a moment and look at the chart : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BPL_Data_GOI.png , let's not go into the discussion of the definition of poverty line and blah blah , but rather let's be objective at things. Things have moved , have not they?
    If you stretch the chart to 1947 on left and 2010 on right , the effet might be more pronounced. So any assumption that things have not happened is wrong , things have certainly moved on.
    Okay , so we all agree that there has been some development , now let's try and answer whether that's enough or not (in context of the resources we had and the initial conditions we were in)?
    Let me try and take an example ( no one else that myself). So my father was the only sibling that went out of village and did a job, I can distinctly remember situation in Palam Colony (Kapil should as well!) 15 years ago. (Note :for those who do not know ,Palam Colony is in New Delhi and is close to Dwarka). Norm was the Power cuts upto 3 days , water logging everywhere even in scant rains , landlines phones were few and far(I used to go to my neighbours to attend calls at times), electricity naked wires all over (illegal) , people doing double face of electricity (to up the dim power to run motors , pumps , fridges etc) ( I once did a double face when the power was normal and only brought down my fridge , TV etc only to recieve my first lesson of electricity -- a tight slap on my face by my father :-| , electricity is dangerous)! Today some of those thing remain but it has improved a lot! If i can correctly recall , the cousins back in my village were so casual(and ok) with the things that we used to face , for them "those" were never a issue, but today , it is. I can see them going through the same phase that i had 10 years back.
    The point I am trying to make is that things percolate , they will trickle down , you cannot expect things to be done in a day, Brahm is a fan of "Rome was not built ... " :p .

    I agree that if we be systematic and sincere and put all our efforts in synchrositaion , things can be better. But I certainly do not like the undue negative rehtoric which is wrong and is uncalled for. I appreciate that we have identified the issues, but then emphasis is on solutions going forward.

    Next , regarding the evergreen topic of corruption , politics , politicians , this is a catch 22 situation for me , are we corrupt and then make decisions which get us the corrupt politicians or are politicans corrupt and give us a system which is corrupt and then attracts us to corruption? I was reading the Mayawati ki Maya and something came to my mind which is as follows: I remember one of my friend did his engineering from Agra and you can possibly guess the students/hostels culture there. I used to visit him often and once had a chat with one of his friends who was the kind of leader of the students. He told me that their methods of using the powers are also seasonal/govt. based. They would play the "bhaiya" card when Mulayam is in power and the "behanji" game when Mayawati is. And the way it works is that if you get into trouble (like a policemen catching you for something illegal) , you call a guy and then he calls another and if it is not resolved it is escalated to local mla etc and ultimately it would get done. Now look at the system we are developing , apart from the guy at the TOP , the MP's , MLA's , CM's , PM's , the whole chain is responsible , is not it? And where does it start from , from the very beginning of life that is college. What do you expect when these folks get old? Old habits die hard they say. We live in a state of being "jugaadu" about things. Going right way is going for the most difficult thing it seems. Now do not ask me for a solution because I do not have but certainly bashing the politicians in isolation is not going to get us anywhere.
    Anjoo , you raised a point of people doing something about this similar to the protests that happen in the west , I will say its much more difficult in Indian context because of the sheer size of things here. More size leads to more diverse interests as well. We see similar on JL as well , no? Some like Ajit , some don't.

    I would go with Kapil on the solution side of things , I think educating folks and giving them opportunities would be the way to go. Each generation learns from the experiences of past. We are at a stage where the educated folks are getting "westernised" at a rapid rate , I can easily see them finding solace in accumulating wealth as of now but I have a strange feeling that at some point of time in future they will get bored of this. Going by human nature they would start becoming dissatisfied of that alone. Their marginal utility in getting more money , getting a better job , getting the comfy life will decrease with time. What I am hoping is that they will start getting more awake about the past , present and future of India and would work towards a better system.
    Note that I already think that in some way we are also doing the same , the thinking process has already begun , the discussions that we have which are pages long are a testimony of the process starting to develop , just that we are still far from the critical threshold for a upshoot!

    May the hope prevail.
    Last edited by anilsinghd; March 22nd, 2010 at 05:15 PM.

  15. #74

    Solutions - Rural Development

    a more meaningful change would be to work towards a better model of local self government, with the taxes collected in a village/town/city primarily spent on that area, and a fixed percentage going to the levels above (district/state/union). the current model of most revenues going to the union, followed by the state, leaves cities, districts and small towns/villages at the mercy of the politicians and bureaucrats. even 63 years after the brits left, we still see our villagers go with a begging bowl to the DC or to the local politician... imo, this concept, if implemented properly can bring amazing results towards rural development.
    ! ... be BOLD in what you stand for !
    !! ... i've the simplest tastes, i'm always satisfied with the best !!
    !!! ... be yourself, everyone else is already taken !!!

  16. #75
    samar,

    some time back, you talked of 'swaraj - local self-governance' >>> http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...ghlight=swaraj

    what are your views if you adopt that concept to rural development ?... and how that can be achieved through gram sabha or any other local body and related difficulties in its practical implementation ?... any thoughts ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Samarkadian View Post
    Boys, you can always whin and can always be a part of change provided you are not pessmistic. Any mundane arguments can be countered with another superior or inferior argument. Thats not my problem, I am optimimistic and that too up to dangerous level. You waste your energy in whinning or can or wait for some aliens to come down and take away all miseries. I choose to seek answers in real and don't wait opposition party or ruling party to consider it . I make use of RTI and results are termendous with a 10 rupees form.

    Dristi sudharo Dristikon sudhrega. Iski outsourcing nahi ho sakti, sadly.
    Swarg paane ke liye padosi ko nahi khud ko marna padta hai.
    ::: Swaraj in modern-day India

    •Swaraj is about giving direct control of funds, functions and functionaries to people’s assemblies – Mohalla sabhas in urban areas and Gram Sabhas in rural areas.
    •These assemblies should meet every month and take decisions regarding all issues in their area.
    •Decisions taken by these assemblies shall be implemented by their elected representative (Mohalla sabha representative in urban areas and Gram Sabha members in rural areas)
    •If elected representatives act against the will of the people, the people’s assemblies should have the power to recall them.
    In short, the people, through people’s assemblies shall directly manage all affairs of their area, which can be managed at their level. Only such issues, which cannot be managed at their level will go to higher levels of government. If majority of Gram Sabhas and Mohalla sabhas in a state vote for a particular issue, the state government shall implement it or enact necessary law or amend existing law.

    That would be true democracy – government by the people.
    This is swaraj. This is self-rule. This is Lok Raj.
    ! ... be BOLD in what you stand for !
    !! ... i've the simplest tastes, i'm always satisfied with the best !!
    !!! ... be yourself, everyone else is already taken !!!

  17. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by anilsinghd View Post
    Though probably Kapil has said all that I could have but still no harm in repeating the rhetoric ( as already there have been some on the thread itself!).

    First thing , we need to set up a benchmark. You can choose that to be other countries today or India as of 1947 ( let !, ps : hope , using let is not being mathematical ). Now , no matter how hard one tries , setting up a benchmark independent of the contemporary western countries.

    The flaw in doing such an comparison is that we tend to stretch too far and also downplay the actual development.
    Let's stop for a moment and look at the chart : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BPL_Data_GOI.png


    I agree that if we be systematic and sincere and put all our efforts in synchrositaion , things can be better. But I certainly do not like the undue negative rehtoric which is wrong and is uncalled for. I appreciate that we have identified the issues, but then emphasis is on solutions going forward.
    I used to visit him often and once had a chat with one of his friends who was the kind of leader of the students. He told me that their methods of using the powers are also seasonal/govt. based. They would play the "bhaiya" card when Mulayam is in power and the "behanji" game when Mayawati is. And the way it works is that if you get into trouble (like a policemen catching you for something illegal) , you call a guy and then he calls another and if it is not resolved it is escalated to local mla etc and ultimately it would get done. Now look at the system we are developing , apart from the guy at the TOP , the MP's , MLA's , CM's , PM's , the whole chain is responsible , is not it? And where does it start from , from the very beginning of life that

    I would go with Kapil on the solution side of things , I think educating folks and giving them opportunities would be the way to go.

    If you repeat a lie 99 times it will become a truth the 100th time……Goebbels, perhaps.

    If you repeat a truth even 100 times it will remain a truth without being any negative rhetoric.,....said by none other than me.

    The problem will surface again and again unless it is addressed to in right earnest. It seems difficult to smother this sick reality by us the cyber savvy digital-haves by downloading economic graphs/statistics from the web-sites like Wikipedia or the Brettonwood institutions as the majority of the rural have-nots do not have access to the Internet tools. They see the problem from different prism and so do I, being a villageois. Baba Ramdev’s pronouncements to jump into the political fray vindicates the fact that desperation is there. I have already narrated a picture of my village and surrounding areas in reply to Samar's post. You must read. I am sure you will not be kidding if you go through all my posts. The incremental Naxal movement or insurgency is another testimony to the desperate situation in rural belts of India.


    As I said in my earlier posts, development is an evolutionary process which keeps happening in all phases of time. Even now it is happening. But the pace has not been upto the mark. With whatever resources at our disposal, we could have achieved much more, if there was a sincere will, clean & corruption free politic/bureaucracy and proper planning If we are talking about benchmark, we at least could have kept pace with our Asian brothers, if not the West. The countries like Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia or China have better rural & urban infrastructure than us - some of them earning the nickname of Asian Tigers.

    As far as solution is concerned, you have rightly quoted Braham “Rome was not built in a day”. Problem is there but not insurmountable. You have rightly suggested educating folks and giving them opportunities will go a long way. and for that we need quality educational institutions comparable to the ones available to the urban elites. (Matter again starts revolving around better infrastructure for rural folks) The illuminated and enlightened youth like you, and others will have to come out of their cyber rooms and share the responsibility by actively participating in the political process inculcating a sense of rebellion in the minds of gullible masses who seem to have reconciled to their destiny, lest the undercurrent of resentment among rural mass of people should be hijacked by any extremist ideology like Naxalism, which would be suicidal. Future belongs to them. The need is to speed up the pace of development at a much faster trajectory.
    Last edited by singhvp; March 23rd, 2010 at 05:32 AM.

  18. #77
    A very good topic indeed and heading in the right direction. Most of the thread leads to digression and finger pointing.
    As most of us still finding our roots in the rural India, I can understand how sensitive and emotional it could be to us when we see our brothers back in the villagesstill going thru the hardships of life which could have been eased their life with the proper utilization of technology and development.
    Going thru the post of learned and educated members on this forum my conclusion is that there has been development in villages and technology has simplifed hardships like Dhood Bilona to Haal Bhanna with the use of electric madhani and tractors. But a lot can be done still.
    Well blaming politicians or bueracrats for everything is not right either because they are also the part of same society they have not come from distant land like Britisher they are the people who get elected or selected among us. They are just the reflection of our society.
    Lets say if today CM hooda calls a Tau from your village and ask him what he wants I am sure he will ask a government job either for his son or son-in-law. He wonts say our village needs cemented road or a secondry school or something for the welfare of whole village. Since we are selfship so are our politicians as they are one of us.
    But how can we change this thinking.... I think its only answer is quality education teaching young ones of character building and recognising selfless leader like Bhagat Singh, Neetaji and Ram Prasad Bismil naming schools, roads and hospitals after there name than Rajiv Ghandi, Mulayam, Mayawati or Chautala.

  19. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by vpsingh View Post
    Going by revelations of Baba Ramdev, wealth worth billions of Rupees is stashed away by the corrupt politicians, industrialists and bureaucrats which is kept either in Swiss or Luxembourg banks or wasted in pleasurable activities. That money could be utilized in making better roads, hospitals, educational institutions and other welfare activities in the impoverished rural areas. Mayawat's garland is one example of ill-gotten money possessed by politicians in the name of Party Fund. I do not think there is dearth of money. Allocation of funds at the budgetary stage need to be revamped cutting down the infructuous non-plan expenditure. There is a need to curb the unwarranted, unfruitful and so frequent foreign jaunts by the bureaucrats and politicians which entails huge expenditure towards their stay in luxurious hotels, DA, and transport etc. Majority of them go abroad just for sight seeing, gambling in Casinos or visiting erotic massage parlours. There is hardly any output . Except for a few VVIP visits which are required by the protocol of reciprocity, most of such foreign tours can be stopped/banned altogether. All the deals can be negotiated by our foreign Missions abroad or by video conferencing. Similarly, back home we need to restrain our politicians and bureaucrats to indulge in extravagant activities involving heavy expenditures incurred on local tours, organising seminars and conference in 5-Star hotels dining and wining with rich and famous. All the corrupt bureaucrats found guilty of graft charges should be dismissed with summary/fast track trails and money so recovered should be put in development funds.

    There are so many ways to generate and unearth sufficient funds for development. If that is not enough flood-gates for FDI need to be opened for tapping the huge potential in rural development. You mentioned about SEZ by Ambanis. I know it is proposed to be developed somewhere near Jhajjar which is not very far from Delhi. It will again increase population pressure in NCR creating in equilibrium already discussed. Ideally, its location should have been in a relatively more backward and far flung area like semi-desert areas of Bhiwani Mahendergarh or remote areas of Rajasthan like Churu District etc. giving these areas an opportunity to keep pace with the developing India. Of course by doing so the element of profit to Ambanis would have substantially decreased but their respect in the hearths of lakhs and lakhs of 'have nots' would have increased treating them as true patriots who want to be equal partners in the development of this country.


    I am not saying that corruption does not play any role in negligence of rural areas. Yes it is endemic in India as well as in other developing countries like China. But we should also look at the other factors which impede the economic growth and main reason of evolution of corruption. Everyone knows that corruption is a root cause of all problems but emphasis has to be on curbing it. The corruption evolved in our system was due to bad practices, policies by the Government which left the country with a slow growth. And that would eventually lead a Government with insufficient funds. Yes if we can bring the stashed money back in home, our government would have sufficient in its reserve to support major projects. But we should still focus on our current economic reforms in order make our economy competitive and resilient. If we have to compete with some strong economies like China, our focus has to be on our economic reforms. I have already discussed about the liberalization of government business in my first post. The old Government policies were largely responsible for our creeping economic growth as well as for the corruption. The dismantling of old Government policies has brought the recent growth in our economy which started back in 1991. This dismantling of Government resistive policies has made it easier for businesses to grow, make their own decisions and has reduced the burden of regulations and bureaucratic inspection. That helped in reducing the corruption to some levels and also provided people with best services. Imagine if only BSNL holds the rights to distribute the mobile SIMS in Haryana. How painful it would be for a customer to get a mobile SIM card. The world class service of Delhi Metro is another example of private involvement in a Government Project. Imagine the services people would have availed if that project was carried out by Delhi Government. First Government had not enough money to support it. Second, if the Government had enough money to support it, was it possible for the Government to finish it on time and providing the best services to the people. The answer is no. The above lines are in response to your question: “Even after 62 years of independence, why the pace of development is so slow and lop-sided?”

    In order to provide more growth in rural areas, our industrial economy should be able to pull more people from agriculture. And emphasis should be on non- farm activities. I believe urbanization creates more opportunity for rural growth. As more and more people will be employed in industrial economy, the purchasing power of people will increase .That will increase more demand in retail sector. I think, the rural economy should not longer be limited to the agriculture. Opportunities in non- farm activities are other side of rural development. The urban development can lead to rural non -farm activities. More urban development would lead into more demands in food, housing, health, transport, education, clothing footwear, consumer durables etc.

    Coming back to Sez and its locations, the concept of Sez introduced in our country was to boost the economy by attracting FDI. That would allow more companies to invest in the country and would generate capital flows in the country. As I have mentioned in my last post, Sez is essentially a way to introduce new rules favourable for business in specially designated areas but not a country as a whole. I think Jhajjar is still a better place for Sez rather than far flung areas in Rajesthan. As Jhajjar is more close to major industrial locations like New Delhi and Gurgaon, companies would find it easy in doing business rather than in remote areas. In order to attract FDI, Sez should be at place where companies find it more profitable and comfortable to operate. Sez is not supposed to place anywhere in the country. Location must be very ideal for businesses like near coastal regions where companies can easily export and import their goods. In India, some of the approved Sez are not able to attract the FDI, because their location is not well suited for business. The semi desert areas are more suited for educational institutes, Government offices, etc. Again it depends upon a state Government to attract more business in a state by slashing taxes, easy to do business condition, simple incorporation, simple labor laws etc. This topic is too broad to discuss as it involves lot of factors like responsibilities, policies, economic reforms by a Government .
    Last edited by vicky84; March 23rd, 2010 at 03:09 PM.

  20. #79
    I am sure a man who joins the discussion at this stage will not be able to put the thoughts very clearly .Still i would relay some info thru a glance over expert comments posted here.
    Rural India is under developed . This should not be a topic for debate neither should it fetch the differences in thoughts. I feel the narrators here are all in same state of contemplations , the difference is the expression. It’s so simple to say India is not yet developed ( Be it Rural or urban ) . I can Conclude things in three lines
    Cause : laid up plans , even worse execution of these , worst resource handling and corrupt system.
    Effect : 20 years lag back, compared to developed nations , India : still an ignored entity at international stage.
    Cure : An utopian system of governance which is next to impossible.

  21. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpsingh View Post
    If you repeat a truth even 100 times it will remain a truth without being any negative rhetoric.,....said by none other than me.

    Let's try and re-iterate this with a cricket match context ( don't thrash me for being non-serious about this , i am very serious on this). First ball of the match and you drop a catch. 3rd over of the match you drop another one , cometh the 15th over , you have dropped 5 catches let's say. What would you do for the remaining part of the match ? Cribb over your dropped chances? Keep repenting on your dropped chances , on how the fielder did not manage to get under the ball , focus on it and blah blah? Yes, if their is flaw with the technique , that needs to be noted and worked on.
    Now I work with two assumptions here , one , you know cricket. Two , I thought that each one of us have discussed/thought about Development and if you want to be more specific the rural development in detail at some point of time. Not sure about you , but can bet some money on other folks , at least myself have done that. This is not to say that the topic is irrelevant. Topic for sure is important but what I would be interested in would be either to view the problem in an innovative way or to focus on solutions. Who denies the inherent corrruption in our system? Who denies that the situation of roads could have been better? Who denies that the number of poor people in India should be much less that what we have?
    You might believe in the "understanding the problem" first before thinking/proposing a solution , I also do ( recall that Einstein quote of if given an hour to solve a problem , he would spend 55 minutes on understanding the problem , or something similar!). But a topic like this is something that is discussed in every other conversation , be it with friends in college , with folks at office , or with people on internet portals. My whole point of categorising the repeated rhetoric as negative was to try and look for a different treatment to the topic. One must also keep in mind that start is important , also any start must factor in the available resources , and any start must be based on "realistic" assumptions.



    The problem will surface again and again unless it is addressed to in right earnest.

    No , the problem will not surface again and again. Since we are not solving the problem in the immedaite future , its a continous problem (in reality , in the virtual spaces of mind , yes it can resurface if one has a short memory), the solution ( any solution for that matter) is not a time bound solution , you cannot say with surity if we can solve all the problems addressed in the coming 5 , 10 , 15 , 20 years. Infact , as I said in my initial post , you will have to construct a benchmark first to compare the initial conditions against and then compare any performance improvements.

    It seems difficult to smother this sick reality by us the cyber savvy digital-haves by downloading economic graphs/statistics from the web-sites like Wikipedia or the Brettonwood institutions as the majority of the rural have-nots do not have access to the Internet tools. They see the problem from different prism and so do I, being a villageois.

    I find that surprising in a negative way. On one hand we agree that we want to modernise and educate folks and also give them the tools of analysis and on the other you are trying to deny the power of such tools and analysis techniques. I am not trying to play down anything here. I am also not trying to run away from the problem. What I am trying to give is a quantitative assessment of what has "happened". Qualitative assessment is good but is not something you can benchmark your performance/results against. Ultimately whichever solution path you embark upon you will have to set some quantitative milestones. Again i find an iota of revolving/stuck around the problem here rather than looking ahead and tackle the solution kind of attitude. Let's be practical and realistic than be emotional about things.

    Baba Ramdev’s pronouncements to jump into the political fray vindicates the fact that desperation is there.

    I do not understand the logic behing this statement. If all the "babas" jump into politics would that imply that we are on brink of default?

    I have already narrated a picture of my village and surrounding areas in reply to Samar's post. You must read.

    Yes , I had read that earlier as well.


    The incremental Naxal movement or insurgency is another testimony to the desperate situation in rural belts of India.


    Again something that I would say you just planted in to support your arguement(typical attitude to try and divert the attention to uncounsciously strengthen one's arguement) , I can remember that you started the thread by trying to focus on the northern belt of UP , Raj , Haryana , MP , guess naxals are not much problematic in these areas.


    As I said in my earlier posts, development is an evolutionary process which keeps happening in all phases of time. Even now it is happening. But the pace has not been upto the mark. With whatever resources at our disposal, we could have achieved much more, if there was a sincere will, clean & corruption free politic/bureaucracy and proper planning If we are talking about benchmark, we at least could have kept pace with our Asian brothers, if not the West. The countries like Thailand, Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia or China have better rural & urban infrastructure than us - some of them earning the nickname of Asian Tigers.

    If I really have to be counter to you , I would say can you come up with what we could have achieved if you would not have all these deficiencies as you mention. Do you strictly believe that a corruption free India would have its villages having the most modern amenities by now? I particularly do not like comparisons with the countries you mention or for that matter any other countries , you have to factor in the initial conditions , social and cultural context before trying to do a comparison.



    As far as solution is concerned, you have rightly quoted Braham “Rome was not built in a day”. Problem is there but not insurmountable. You have rightly suggested educating folks and giving them opportunities will go a long way. and for that we need quality educational institutions comparable to the ones available to the urban elites. (Matter again starts revolving around better infrastructure for rural folks) The illuminated and enlightened youth like you, and others will have to come out of their cyber rooms and share the responsibility by actively participating in the political process inculcating a sense of rebellion in the minds of gullible masses who seem to have reconciled to their destiny, lest the undercurrent of resentment among rural mass of people should be hijacked by any extremist ideology like Naxalism, which would be suicidal. Future belongs to them. The need is to speed up the pace of development at a much faster trajectory.

    Can you really come out with bullet points which are realistic and practical rather than suggesting qualitative measures? I mean the "how's" of solution?
    Let us try to be constructive. Bottom line we all realise that there is a long way to go before we can have all the folks of India to have all the facilities and really call ourselves as developed. There is no denying the issues that are at hand. As i think more and more on this and related topics , I also get a feeling that it might be that people really do not deserve this at the moment.
    How about this quote:
    It isn't that they can't see the solution. It's that they can't see the problem.

    As I also said in my previous post , people do seem to have different priorities than nation building at the moment, Me , you and others , we all seem to focus on things that have nothing to do with development of the country. If i have to give an example , I would say if I stand in the next parliamentary election ( to my credentials I am young , I have a post graduate degree from a premier institute, 7 years(at the time of next elections) of industry experience that includes management / technology / engineering work , international exposure , a sound head on my shoulders (Brahm might want to disagree ) , would that ensure that I get a win against a candidate that has tainted image , is old , has not done anything for the constituency (per you or some of the educated folks here)?

    A Holistic approach is put into the garbage bin(I can vividly remmber how Brahm thrashed this term of mine in the reservation context , no starting the same fun again please). I would say let the problem mature , let people really feel the pinch. Ofcourse if one wants to start , he/she is most welcome. But as you also said , sitting in the cosy rooms and punching keypads is not taking us anywhere and so is the repeating of the issues.
    Last edited by anilsinghd; March 23rd, 2010 at 05:16 PM. Reason: spell mistakes

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