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Thread: Justice of Khap Panchayats on within same gotra/village marriages, how far good/fair?

  1. #21
    I read u but think about those circumstances when a brother /father become ready to kill their own sister/daughter.
    in Manoj- Babli case u ll find the Babli s family was very supportive to their Daughter like for education and allowing her to play Kabaddi interstate, which indicate they were planning and caring about their beloved sister, but the mechanic/electrician of her own village/same gotra chase her every place who was not equally good looking and convince her for such kind of marriage, i consider u did not spend u r childhood in village when every child learn of village learn about social practice.
    I do not appreciate honor killing in any form but to teach the society to hang till death is very harsh decision of honorable court beacuse the stigma attached to the family does not go for after 3 generation also, they r victim of our social system(parents of girl/women) who take such kind of step.
    In my opinion it is the time to save their life and educate the daughters of Jat samaj dont surrender yourself to emotional flow of low profile guy atleast to whom your own parents(not khap panchayat) will not accept at any cost, educate them at a level where they can get a good job/ self dependent, what s the dream of Babli s parents also.
    I genuinly appreciate your anger against khap panchayats but dont ingnore these facts also.

  2. #22
    Sidarth & other friends.



    In fact the basic issue of honour killing has strayed too far and the secondary issue of marriage within the clan (gotra) seems to be taking recurrence in spite of the fact that not a single member has supported/demanded sanctity of such marriages. But, of course, majority of the participants in this discussion have clearly condemned murder in the name of honour. Alternative punishment viz. expulsion from village/ State etc. was also suggested by some and the participants were very much entitled to have their views on a subject which has been thrown for discussion on a public forum. The frustration shown by those favouring murder is quite absurd, uncalled for and unjustified. Therefore, it is pointless to rake up the issue of intra-clan marriage which should have been a dead subject by now. To be more precise, marriage within same clan supplants, dilutes and marginalises the prevailing instrument of custom and amounts to breach of universally acceptable societal convention which still needs to be preserved in my opinion given the level of our social evolution. But, I do not think this kind of marriage will take place very often and can easily be avoided by proper educating your kids. Though it was absolutely a breach of a healthy custom by Manoj & Babli, it was just a rarest of rare aberration/exception and should have been downplayed to avoid media hype and wide publicity which, perhaps, provoked the aggrieved family members to take the extreme step of killing the boy and the girl. Murder has definitely not earned any honour to the community; it has rather tarnished the image of the community. The situation got highlighted and aggravated more by frequent and huge congregations by the community leaders/Khaps.

    The current situation in the Jat society is characterized by a widening distrust between the educated, moderate and progressive young Jats, especially settled in cities or staying abroad, and those poor and innocent farmers residing in villages, buckling under pressure from their respective clan leaders for adherence to some outmoded customs. For want of internet and other media, these hapless farmers do not have access to the information on latest trends and fast changing social dynamics which are essential ingredients for progress of any community. They are victims of false propaganda unleashed by the self-seeking clan (Khap) leaders against the modern youth with progressive outlook branding them as bunch of characterless people who know nothing about the traditions and Jat culture. According to them the people who reside in cities or abroad indulge in all sort of murky behaviour. It smacks of their innocence due to lack of education which should take the topmost priority instead of these trivial issues of marriage/divorce etc. These issues should be left to the individuals. It is high time the Khaps must concentrate their energies on developmental issues like education, roads, internet, electricity, hospitals etc.

    Individually, I have nothing against the Khap leaders as they are not outsiders. They are after all our own Elder Brothers/Uncles/Taus or Grand-Fathers. I have all respect for them as individuals but do not endorse their approach in certain matters like inciting honour killings and it is my democratic right to differ with them on any subject. I do not want to be a blind follower of our ancestors. It becomes out duty to educate them and give them proper briefing through this portal. I do not see anything wrong in it. I do not believe in the formality and the rhetoric of saying yes to elders in every respect. If they are willing to modify their agenda by including the above-mentioned developmental issues, and start a movement, I will definitely join them.
    Last edited by singhvp; April 22nd, 2010 at 05:35 AM.

  3. #23

    Few points on Mr. D R Choudhary's article:

    Essence of Mr. Choudhary's article:

    1. Honor Killings are prevailing in areas with tribal hangover (Haryana, some part of UP, Pakistan and Yemen).

    2. Honor Killings are (solely) a product of institution called Khaps.

    3. Khaps leads to grotesque and barbarous manifestation of gender discrimination. And Skewed sex-ratio might be a by-product of Khaps.

    4. Khaps have no relevance today. (Though some UP Khaps are different as they are doing some good 'work'.)

    5. It is unimaginable that Khaps in Haryana can do any good work.

    6. Khaps are rigid (though later he contradict himself, giving examples of Khap's progressiveness).


    ===========================

    Nice international touch, i must say, in comparing the khaps with some of the worst Muslim countries! His 'agenda' behind this comparison becomes quite clear when he introduced the 'barbarous gender discrimination '. After all these muslim countries are famous for treating women as commodity (no education to girl, can't go outside without male from his family).

    I really wonder, when did all this started in Haryana? Last time (in Dec 2009) I checked in/around my village (not a Las-Vegas, i should declare), Girls were not being treated any worse than boys. At least 20 girls are doing Masters degree from my village, and even more Bachelor's. I see no Lathwal-Khap declaring any Fatwa against any of these girls.
    Skewed sex-ratio has of course many other reasons!!

    Girl and Dishonor: Not true, a boy marrying in his gotra bring equal dishonor. Author seems to be myopic (of course prejudiced); even in the recent much-publicized case it was the couple (which means, BOY along with girl) who got killed.

    But who cares... bring the allegation of gender discriminations along with neo-liberal thoughts (which resonances with people, who read these articles; who, BTW, do NOT have any idea about the actual situation/local traditions or rationale behind them) and you are a HIT.

    Not surprisingly he beats the Jat & Khaps with a recently invented stick--- Khap are Indian Taliban-- latest fashion in media (and among some intellectuals from our dear JL).

    ---------------------------------------

    Author seems to have a lot of knowledge about the honor killings in other countries too. Surprisingly he did NOT mention our own Indian states. I have repeated this many times at Jatland itself that Southern states are no better when it comes to honor killings . In my last five years in Bangalore, i have met many people from these states.. all kinds.. from the villages, town and cities and had good discussion with them. Every region have some traditions and people abide by them. e.g., one of my lab mates (from AP) told that they too don't marry in their own village. My persistent question what if someone does.. he yielded: Village as a whole will boycott them and it will be stigma to them forever, hence nobody does that. Further probing yielded: yes, there have been mysterious 'deaths' supposedly due to dishonor!!

    I don't understand, how author (and some people here at Jatland) absolve themselves, parents and society of Honor killings and put the whole blame on Khap as if there won't be any honor killings if Khaps cease to exist.

    Will you, me, your relatives or your friends or your local society become liberals (media sense) instantly if some magic button aborts Khaps??


    More on honor Killings: Sometime back there was news about 'honor killing' somewhere in Uk or Canada where NRI couple killed their daughter as she married to some firanga.

    Was it Khap's influence?? Was it the fear that they (NRI) might be oust of their 'village'??

    -------------------
    Author further elaborate (his sick fantasy) that sex is quite common nowadays in village; courtesy modern ways of communication. And hence intra-village and/or intra-gotra marriage should not be frowned upon. (and apparently 'Not frowning upon' means banning Khaps; though it's yet to see how govt or pseudo-intellects propose to BAN Khaps in practice).

    Quite surprising: if it is in the same village how modern communication gadget has increased the chances of sexual encounters. At least i never saw that girls were being accompanied by their brother/fathers/uncles everywhere. 10 years back they enjoyed the same liberty as they do now (at least in terms of moving in villages).

    Needless to say there are/(have been) some wayward kids who are blinded by the lust; take infatuation for pious love and make the life hell for their family.
    What kind of love is this?? When they know the social norms, they know the traditions.. they know the consequences of their actions.. What it does to their family.. what it make the life of their siblings and cousins. Still they go ahead with their lust. I, personally, do NOT see it any better than incestuous. Time, sex between siblings was forbidden, reason was not Genetics (no one knew genetic codes that time), it was so for social reasons.

    I can understand some 'Banagli' reporter who does not have any idea about our 'traditions' or someone who can not differentiate between the surname, gotra and/or lineage. I really don't care if my disapproval of incestuous relationship makes me 'uncivilized' or 'talibani' in the eyes of some high-society bawd. But it is painful is to see some esteemed members at Jatland 'glorifying' such couples, branding them as the 'winds of +ve change' in our society. What is going to be the next +ve +ve change?? marrying in same family as muslims do it ? marriage between siblings as some non- Homo sapiens do it?? to what end??
    I mean, do we really need to import some alien culture instantly?? Are we not changing with time? Do we really need to throw all our traditions because it is a globalized word? Do some stupid actions of 0.00001% of people dictate our collective reasoning?

    I don't see khaps any better or worse than myself or persons i know. May be I am in a bad company.
    Yes, khaps are not perfect… neither am I. Anyway, perfection had always been imaginary!!




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  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by sidarth View Post
    I read u but think about those circumstances when a brother /father become ready to kill their own sister/daughter.
    in Manoj- Babli case u ll find the Babli s family was very supportive to their Daughter like for education and allowing her to play Kabaddi interstate, which indicate they were planning and caring about their beloved sister, but the mechanic/electrician of her own village/same gotra chase her every place who was not equally good looking and convince her for such kind of marriage, i consider u did not spend u r childhood in village when every child learn of village learn about social practice.
    I do not appreciate honor killing in any form but to teach the society to hang till death is very harsh decision of honorable court beacuse the stigma attached to the family does not go for after 3 generation also, they r victim of our social system(parents of girl/women) who take such kind of step.
    In my opinion it is the time to save their life and educate the daughters of Jat samaj dont surrender yourself to emotional flow of low profile guy atleast to whom your own parents(not khap panchayat) will not accept at any cost, educate them at a level where they can get a good job/ self dependent, what s the dream of Babli s parents also.
    I genuinly appreciate your anger against khap panchayats but dont ingnore these facts also
    .
    I agree to you on above post.we should teach our daughters & let them become aware of JAT samaj & their rituals/traditions etc.in this way in their turn after marrying she will educate her children of JAT samaj, a chain reaction will set & we will able to preserve our JAT culture.
    But one more question WHAT ABOUT JAT BOYS who are after every biharan/bengalan? shouldn't JAT BOYS be equally responsible for preserving/carrying the JAT samaj.
    Today's JAT BOY Tomorrow's KHAP MEN.
    So final points is EDUCATE & TEACH you children about JAT culture also in addition to formal education.
    I wish to born & die again as JAT.

    तू छोड़ रहा है तो ख़ता इसमें तेरी क्या,
    हर शख़्स मेरा साथ निभा भी नहीं सकता।


  6. #25
    गोत्तर विवाद पर सभी की अपनी अपनी राय हैं नजरिया हैं | सब एक बात पर तो सहमत हैं की खुद और माँ के गोत्तर में ब्याह गलत हैं | चौधरी साहब जैसे लोग खाप की मुखालफत करते हैं खुद के गाँव खेड़े में ब्याह को जायज ठहराते हैं | खाप प्रणाली सिर्फ देशवाली जाटों में हैं पंजाबी जाटों में इसका रूप जत्थों ने ले लिया | बागड़ी जाटों की खाप प्रणाली रजवाड़े आने से खत्म हो गई | यही कारण हैं की खाप प्रणाली खत्म होने से बागड़ी जाट शारीरिक व मानसिक रूप से रजवाड़ो के अधीन हो कर रह गए उनकी सोच गुलाम हो कर रह गई अगर ये बागड़ी जाट अपनी खाप प्रणाली मजबूत रखते तो इनका राज ख़त्म नहीं होता | राजस्थान में जाटों की आबादी राजपूतों से कम नहीं हैं | आज अगर जाट का नाम आता हैं तो लोगो के जेहन में यही आता हैं के हरयाणा या पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश का होगा ना के राजस्थान का , राजस्थान का तो नाम आते ही रजवाड़ो की बू आती हैं | इसका कारण सिर्फ यहाँ की खाप प्रणाली हैं जो आज तक मजबूत हैं | चौधरी साहब कोई पहले या नए व्यक्ति नहीं हैं जो खाप के खिलाफ लिखते या बोलते हैं |
    कइयो का कहना हैं के खाप खामखा के मुद्दे उठाती हैं , गाँव में गलियों शिक्षा बिजली आदि का ख्याल नहीं करती | इस सब के लिए सरकार ने एक पंचायती राज बना रखा हैं जो अपना काम करता हैं , जिसका सदस्य किसी भी जाति वर्ग से हो सकता हैं | खाप का काम अपने समाज के संस्कार संस्कृति के मान सम्मान को बचाना होता हैं |
    दो चार दिन पहले NDTV पर एक प्रोग्राम में पचौरी साहब ने कहा के लोग 21vi सदी में जा लिए ये खाप वाले पता नहीं कहा जी रहे हैं , इनको तकनिकी विकास भी चाहिए और ऊपर से ये गोत्तर विवाह भी | कोई उससे पूछे की तकनिकी विकास चाहने के लिए क्या अब भाई को बहन से शादी करनी पड़ेगी ? यह लोग कैसे हमे मुर्ख बना रहे हैं कैसे हमे तोड़ रहे हैं यदि हम इनकी बातो में आ गए तो हमारी सोच इनकी गुलाम हो जाएगी हम खत्म हो जायेंगे |
    इतिहास उठकर देखे तो सबसे ज्यादा संत सूरमे जाट कौम में जन्मे हैं जिसका कारण हमारा यह गोत्तर प्रणाली ही हैं | अगर या टूंट गई तो जाटों में भी हिजड़ो की फ़ौज हो जाएगी |
    जैसा की खाप पंचायत ने अपने मसौदे में गोत्तर के साथ साथ गाँव खेड़े पडोसी गाँव छोड़ने की बात कही |
    रही बात honour killing की तो कोई खाप कभी किसी को नहीं मरवाती न ही मारने का आदेश देती | हर खाप पंचायत में ऐसी शादी करने वालो को सिर्फ गाँव छोड़ने का हुकुम सुनाती हैं | यदि हमारे कानून में संसोधन हो जाता हैं तो ऐसी शादियों पर काफी हद तक नकेल कस जाएगी अगर कोई करेगा भी तो गाँव में नहीं आएगा जिससे इन् "honour killing " में भी कमी आएगी |


    Think which become obvious in future

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  8. #26
    Hi friends,

    Today I am writing from two perspectives, on one hand will try to explain what I do whenever get the chance to go my native place for society under the influence of second perspective, which also is the today’s title of my discussion. So the title is:

    JAATDA (JAT) AUR KAATDA (INFANT OF BUFFALO) APNE KO HEE MAAREN

    Well getting motivated by the comment from Nitin (very first reply to my last writing in this chain) I thought it better to share about how I try to serve the society.

    Though I am studying abroad so not often get the chance to visit India but on an average once a year. Since the day I started earning, I give a fixed percentage of my earning in social services like helping the really financially poor and helpless needy people from so called all 36 casts. My father is not only my motivation behind such deeds but always support and guide me in such tasks. In fact I always leave it up to him to decide on where and how to invest that money because by this we both feel honor and proud in our father-son relation. Telling percentage and figures used in such tasks would be of no use here and moreover would rather be seen as boasting and diluting the real sense of serving the society. But such help includes helping poor people by distributing day to day needy stuff, instruments need to generate self-employment, medical helps etc. Baat tabiyat se ek pathar uchhaalne waali hai jitni tabiyat se uchhaloge aasmaan mein chhed utna hee bada hoga.

    Nitin, I am sure you must have been doing such works because a person who cares about the society so much as you, must be helping the society practically too. From your post I didn’t see any example which you practice yourself and could be of the kind of sharing with the like thinking people from this platform.

    Coming to main topic of today, from my last articles in this chain I simply have tried to make it feasible on how the involvement of Khap Panchayats can serve the society positively and bring them closer to hearts willingly not forcefully. And it can only be done with the equal support and involvement of old and new blood again (Khaps, you, me and us – traditional and modern).

    NOTE: Before proceeding ahead I thought it better to remind that I neither advocate nor criticize the Khaps but advocate to keep them alive, meaningful and as proudly and fresh as any recent new trend or custom for new generations and it can be done only through discussions and sharing ideas with a feeling of respect and honor to each other by sensitive talkings.

    Be remembered that to get the best quality of curd and butter (Makhkhan) from today’s bucket-full milk, our mothers and grand-mothers (on grand scale to say otherwise our sister-in-laws, wives of married among us and sisters or in some case gents too) always use the few milliliters of last day old curd or lassi. See here the ratio of the quantity of today’s milk to few drops taken of last day lassi or curd. So I am interested in those few powerful milliliters of curd or lassi which even being the older have the enough power to converge liters or bucket-full of milk in to new fresh curd, butter and lassi, which if was not there nobody knew or sure about the quality of going to be new curd from today’s fresh milk.

    I already have said in my very last articles of this chain that there are some drawbacks grown up with time in Khaps and they need to be revised and if necessary should be eliminated. And for tomorrow, we have to eliminate the bad, keep the good not only the current good but the new and modern but good traits too.

    The definition of Khaps: People from same Khaps lets say “Ghathwala” Khap is originating from “honorable shrine of Dada Ghasi Ram Ji” so if all Maliks within Jat Malik surname are said brothers and sisters, it is because our sub-clans or family branches ends at this one name and so for the other Khaps except any exception unknown to me.

    I am a kind of thinking tank that believes that our all Khaps, should establish a governing body like SGPC (Siromani Gurdwara Parbhandhak Committee) so that there should be one body governing all Khaps and formed by Khaps and obeyed by Khaps. We Jats have to organize ourselves under such a flagship. SGPC ke decisions ke against bolne se pahle Media bhi 10 baar sochta hai. So if our Jat brothers from Sikh community can do that why cant we Hindu Jats form such a serious committee whose decisions are not only accepted un-questioned but without any kind of disagreement. There is hardly a disagreement found in SGPC decisions because SGPC forms on the principles of revising and keep analyzing themselves. By this Media will give us more respect and if to launch then will launch maximum positive about us. The other most important advantage of this would be to limit Media to their limits and make thinking them before commenting useless about Jats. I see this as a solution to some concerns shown by some of us in various articles on Jat Land form itself. I am sorry for my knowledge on SGPC system if someone finds any contradiction on what I wrote here about SGPC but my ultimate goal to say is that we and our Khaps should unite under such one single shrine kind of flagship.

    In my last articles, I requested to bring some examples from other communities on viability of same Gotra-marriage system and have really seen some good examples introduced in this chain like one by Dear Jitender Singh. Dear Jitnedera taking your example of Arjuna and Subhadhra here. Yeah ok they were cousins but from different gotras at least. Their gotras were different and even were from different villages or you can say different dynasties, but today the major issue is of marrying in the same gotra, one’s own surname and same village in some cases. I don’t know if Arjuna-Subhadra were Jats but as their marriage was according to the law of out of same gotra-marriage rule so no issue in that. Can we have some examples from Hindu history where girl and boy were from same surname?

    Jats are launched or blamed as if we are against love marriages. I think we should communicate to other communities that we Jats are not against love marriages because where-ever love marriages in Jat community are made following the out of same gotra marriage rule, they are accepted and most of those couples are living a happy life, at least they dont face same-gotra marriage issues. I hardly find if anyone representer of/from our community (neither in TV shows like NDTV casted on Gotra and Khaps so called issues or through any kind of Khap Panchayats or other relevant body) saying that love marriages are not a crime in Jats if are made respecting minimum customs like out of same gotra-marriage rule.

    Someone may not like this rule-oriented mentality but if a Hindu is said Hindu and a Christian is said Christian then are they without any rule? In fact I will not say them as rule but as an identity of being a Hindu or a Muslim and same here for being a Jat. What our Khaps are demanding only to save this respected and most shouted customs of our community.So “Bhaai love karo but atleast thodi si to social responsibility and custom ko follow karke karo." This message should be communicated to our own and local young generation before that they start feeling as if they are totally blocked or banned from loving someone by their own elders and start considering their elders as their first enemy. So if Jats are rigid on out of same gotra marriage rule, it doesn’t mean that Jats are against Love marriages.

    Continued……read the second part in chain to complete article till end…)))

  9. #27
    JAATDA (JAT) AUR KAATDA (INFANT OF BUFFALO) APNE KO HEE MAAREN (Part 2)...continued...)))

    This is a side point to this topic if someone could clear my doubt. I myself still not sure if Arjuna was a Jat. We also claim for Lord Krishna that he was a Jat but he is equally claimed by Yadavas too, infect his surname is Yadav. I think Yadav surname is in Jats also then in that we Yadavs may also be Jat in one way. Thanks for clearing me on this with sound proofs, Proofs not with just simple writings but accepted by other might be question raising societies on this. One example of claiming Lord Krishna as a Jat, I have read from Wikipedia’s Jat People but is it equally accepted by Yadavas too who say that they are not Jats but Ahirs? So were Arjuna and Lord Krishna really Jats?

    I am living in France. People are so proud of their own customs, language and traditions that they don’t like to talk with you if you don’t speak in French on local and social places especially. You are considered as third/fourth or no party here if you speak in English. They also understand the importance of English too but never judge it over their own language/customs. I was working in GE Healthcare for last 2 years which is an English speaking US MNC/conglomerate and English is compulsory to get job in French subsidiaries of this company but French’s are so rigid or I would say proud of being themselves that even after being employee of US company, they prefer to talk in French and even organize the meetings and calls in French unless or until they are talking outside France like to any IT team from India or US counterparts.

    What is called as modernization, the top-notch things like fashion na? Is there any country other than France or any city other than Paris in the world who is boasted of and known for fashion? It is a common saying that “World wears what Paris wears”. So if one side they are rigid to their traditions/customs on the other side they are this much modern to be known for fashion and many other things like French Nuclear Advancement, Aerospace, Airline agencies, Infrasturcture, world fastest trains and their life style (it is not advocating French here but presenting an example). There would hardly be a young from India who doesn’t know or watch the famous mid-night Fashion show live from Paris. Well actually we have to exercise on our habits of not only following Paris or London fashions but guarding our customs and tradition with the same passion, respect and love as Paris and London do.

    It’s we only the Jats who are luckiest in this world, who can claim and boast of dual social systems, one for Vansawali (Khaps) and the second for RajaVanses like of Maharaja Surjamal Ji and 1857 Martyr great son of soil Raja Nahar Singh Tewatiya. Raja’s and their dynasties are either limited or abolished by governments (whether they were Jats, Rajputs or other casts). So if only is left that is like our Khap system and is really a matter of proud for us, which shows that we are driven under self-control but not lead by others so we should guard this system. We should advocate it proactively but not as a reaction in reactive or active way. Afterall society is made of all so called 36 casts but not just by Jats. So peace and harmony of others should also be taken care, which in fact we do, it is mentioned here just as a point to be practiced.

    If we have really to abolish or eliminate something from our community then it is this idiom "Jaatda (JAT) AUR Kaatda (INFANT OF BUFFALO) Apne Ko Hee Maaren". So let’s keep these khaps alive by continous and time to time reforming and restructuring them. What to re-think or reform, for example: One point emerging contradictory from Manoj-Babli case is that one side Khaps claim for never ordering to kill someone and on the other hand if they are so affirm with their never ordering to kill someone point then why to collect financial help to support the court’s decision victims. This point for me is just weakening their most important point of advocating for change in the Hindu marriage act. They are brining themselves on the ground of doubt. Perhaps the representatives of Khaps themselves were not aware of both side could be output of this decision and took this financial support decision in emotions.

    Roling Hukkas and playing cards and doing nothing, I don’t agree fully, first most of them do this in free time, second if we want to use their talent in reforms then we people from this Jatland (because I consider all of us who are on this platform at least this much updated and aware) have to tell or suggest them to use their time in creative and innovative activities with practical examples. It is just not blaming older, the main problem of our society is that transformation in our society is one way from older to younger or younger to older but hardly case where both agrees or tried to make agree. It is normal that sometimes if someone of us try to make them understand on changes happening in today’s world, we get push-backs and negative responses. It is because either our own way of saying or presenting our views were not in the way they accept or we miss to add real convincing facts in our efforts. In most of the case we lost the patience in few minutes on if few back-ups given to our suggestions by elders or illiterates. So we younger have to become more persistent to change them according to us and get change ourselves according to them. Wo kahte hain na ki "Kuchh tum badlo kuchh hum badlenge to sara jaha hi badal jayega, aage badh jayega." So communication and discussion should be dual but not just one way. We jats are emotional in most of the cases and if sometime we courage to put any point in society we are so passimistic or passionate that in case of a negative push back instead of analysing the could be weak points from our own side, we start blaming them (the push-backers) as superstidious.

    Dear Vivek, your point has a point. Yes it is true that we Jats not only provide best opportunities of education, sports and listening to our family girls like you explained in case of Babli but yes you are right, we have to make our girls aware of the cheap guys tactics and their mean purposes of burgling with their emotions on the name of fake love.

    Dear Satyeswar thanks for your point of talking seriously instead of commenting inter-personal or childish.

    I appreciate all the relevant and positive points brought under this discussion making the discussion further healthy and meaningful. I hope this new edition, a further addition to this chain will help in bringing maturity to discussion and will make it relevant and reference to interested



  10. #28
    Her Excellency, Smt. Pratibha Patil,
    The President of India,
    Rashter Pati Bhawan New Delhi
    Subject: Controversy regarding Gotra System as followed among
    Jat Community in India.
    Hon’ble Madam,
    I have the honour to write to you as under on the subject cited above and to request you for your kind perusal of the same with a view to help stop the vicious compaign in both electronic and print media in a planned and orchestrated manner against Jat Community and their customs that have been governing and regulating their behaviour and whole gamut of their social set up. I would like to draw your kind attention pointwise as detailed below:
    1. Gotra System: It is a fact of history and common knowledge that Gotra system and the traditions of lineage have remained sanctified inter and intra community in the Indian Cultural ethos since vedic period of our history, established by our Rishis with a view to streamline and facilitate the working of the Indian society on a correct authopological, sociological and biologically scientific basis. This system has really stood all tests of the times and has kept our society free from all kinds of conflicts and feuds. It is logical, therefore, that every Northern Indian is proud of this Gotra System.
    2. Gotra System is scientific based: Except for South India and some parts of North-East, the Gotra system is prevalent among all communities across the length and breadth of India. The system practised as such debars in every rural community the matrimonial relationship among same Gotra. This age-old and fool proof prescription is based on scientific principles that better and healthier progency can be ensured by making matrimonial alliances among people genetically diverse. Among the communities in which Intra-Gotra marriages take place, it has been noticed that procreative potency has decline to the extent that freaks are born out of such alliances. A solid example, in this regard, is that of the Parsi community in India in which the violation of the above genetic principle has shown adverse results. Their total population in India according to the 1991 census was 72634 which got reduced to 69241 in 2001 census. One more example in this case is that of a particular religion which

    constitute hardly 20% of India’s total population, whereas almost 70% are eunnuchs from this religion in India due to not following the Gotra system. Moreover the African Lions living in one herd have suffered drastic decline of their population as well as are suffering from various diseases. Secondly in the absence of Gotra system more disabilities are also growing. So the Gotra system as practised in India, particularly in Jat community is completely a scientific one and debarring of 2-3 gotras for marriage purposes in the community is not difficult because 4800 gotra are at hand with the Jats. Thus, Gotra system is culturally sacred and scientifically a correct and healthy practice.
    3. Gotra system and the Hindu marriage Act 1955: Throughout India people of different religious and castes follow different religious and social customs. But the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955 does not recognize such diversity of customs. It recognizes only 3 blood relations based on customary practices of South India. These are given in section 3 of the Act (i) Avoid total blood relation (ii) Avoid blood relation (iii) Avoid utereine blood relation. But this act does not recognize customary practices of North India and particularly of Jat community. In South India, particularly Brahamins have a custom to marry their sister’s children, father’s sister’s children and maternal uncle’s children. Whereas in North Indian, particularly in Jat community, these relations are treated equal to real brothers and sisters. It is clear that this Act was drafted by South Indian officers and detailed debate was not held on this Act in the parliament with the result that this Act is an incomplete Act. Before inceptioin of this Act, Gotra system was valid as per the existing laws.
    4. System of Khaps (¹æÂ) among Jats: Clusters of one Gotra villages or a group of different gotras of villages form a Khap. The literal meaning of the word Khap is kshatrap (ÿæ˜æÂ) which indicates a particular region of a khap which is based on ancient Indian tradition of demoractic republics. Thousand years back Rishi Panini has observed in his book. "Ashtadhayayi" (¥CUæŠææØè) ÁÅU ÛæÅU â´ƒææÌð - which means Jats organize themselves into federal republics without loss of time. The same system developed into Khap later on, which led to the birth of modern democracy. it was Jat king Harsha Vardhan Bains who consolidated these systems into Sarva Khap in the year 643 AD with its Headquarter at village Saurabha, Distt. Muzaffer Nagar (U.P.) where its complete old records are available. Scholars like Dr. M.C. Pardhan, Dr. Mon Fort, Dr. G.C. Dwivcdi, Dr. Bala Krishan Dabas among others, have conducted intensive research on the basis of this historical record and have produced several scholarly theses. Worthmentioning among these is Dr. M.C. Pradhan’s thesis “Political

  11. #29
    system of the Northern Indian Jats”. There are many other books on the basis of these records such as “âßü¹æ ´¿æØÌ ·¤æ ÚUæCþUèØ ÂÚUæ·ý¤×”.
    5. Adverse effect on the Jat Community due to Hindu Marriage Act 1955: It is well known that gotra system is the backbone of Jat community which form their social well being and it is only gotra system that weaves the whole fabric of their value system, the Samskaras (â´S·¤æÚU). As a result, the community has to avoid at least two gotras when matrimonial alliances take place. No Khap of a particular gortra can allow among itself as bride a girl belonging to a gotra within the Khap. Jat community recognize this to be very sacred and sanctified custom. Any attempt to violate these, customs, is opposed with all the strength of character. This social opposition bring the violaters (boys and girls of the same gotra) under tremendous psychological and social pressure so that in many cases they resort to the drastic step of committing suicide. As per the Jats’s traditions and culture these boys and girls are brothers and sisters who were blinded by the carnal passion for one another. But the media is projecting them as loving couples sordidly and thus encourages more and more boys and girls to fall in the same line of uncalled for. Moreover, the media has launched a well orchestrated compaign of branding the entire Jat community as Talibani. Whatever the media is doing in this context is only to malign the community, as there has never been any order issued or so called Fatwa by any Jat Khap within India. Therefore, I am enclosing an affidavit on behalf of Jat community in this connection. Kindly note that any self styled Pradhan can not be called Khap.
    The right to take action on such social crimes rests with Khaps to discard such persons from the community, in the same manner as its rests with the Sikh Panth against those working against Sikhism. For example, in 1986 Sardar Surjit Singh Barnala while being the Chief Minister of Punjab, was declared a TANKHAIYA and was punished with cleaning shoes and utensils in a Gurudwara.
    6. Is Jat a Hindu? The Hindu marriage Act 1955 has failed to accomodate the social traditions of Jat community with the result, the Jats have grudge against it. Otherwise about 80 Crore other Hindus have no complaint against this law. It means this Hindu Act suits other Hindus and was made for them only. The question therefore is, what is the religion of the Jats? The Hindu Granth Sakand Puran holds that the widow marriage was prevalent only among Sudras but Jas have been holding widow marriages as a solemon religious act since centuries. So according to such Hindu Granth the Jats are Sudra. But at the same time

    National Second Backward Class Commission (Mandal Commission) says that all the castes in Sudhra Varna have been given reservation. But the Jats were not included in the reservation by this Commission. This means that Jats are not in Sudhra Varna conflicting with the above quoted observations. During 1934, Lahore High Court declared Jats as Sudra. On the other hand Britishers have declared Jats as a Martial Race. Swami Daya Nand not only said that Jats are a martial community but took a step further callig them as God. There are many conflicting views in different Hindu Granths such as Padam Puran, Bhavisha Puran and Chachnama etc. So under these conflicting views it is incumbent upon powers to determine where really the Jats belong.
    7. Discriminations and injustice against Jats: From the above submissions, it is clear that partiality and discrimination has been practised against Jats both in Hindu literature and the media. The Govt. of India, right since 1947 has also been following the above line and no efforts were ever made to meet the aspirations of this community. This has all resulted into the rise of the feeling among Jat community that the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 does not belong to them as it fails to cover and incorporate their legitimate customary laws. It is an irony that the Act, instead of preserving the customary laws, leaves them outside its ambit only to be disregarded and ultimately broken by those bent upon pervailing social crimes. Customary laws are handed over from generation to generation in an oral manner much in the same way as the English Constitution which is still unwritten, and therefore, like the English Constitution they should also be made to hold ground and put in practice in India.
    UN Declaration of 18th December 1992-Quote: In order to strengthen the cause of the minorities, the United Nations promulgated the “Declaration on the Rights of Persons belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious and Linguistic Minorities” on 18th Decembe 1922 proclaiming that: “States shall protect the existence of the National or Ethnic, Culture, Religious and Linguistic identity of minorities within their respective territories and encourage conditions for the promotion of that identity.”
    Minority Commission has recognised Muslims, Christians, Sikhs, Buddhists, Jains and Prasees ............. than why not the Jats?
    8. The Role of Jats: It is a well-known fact that Jats have been making much more contributions than any other community in every field of life, be it sports, agriculture or during war. Moreover, they have played a great role in the preservation of India’s democratic system, Panchayati Raj System and Cultural heritage. The Jat community has always opposed

    to any kind of dogmatism and conservatism. Hence, it is requested that this patriotic community may not be pushed to the margin and left to nurse a grouse which may take an ugly turn. Jats inhabit very large tracts of the country, spanning from Barmer to Bijnaur, from Kathuwa to Gwalior. Moreover, this is the only tract which is free from any kind of disturbances witnessed elsewhere in India. So, justice needs to be done to this community whose sole responsibility lies with the Govt. of India. 21st Century and progressive country does not mean that we should forget our culture or change our relations like calling brothers and sisters as loving couples. To keep this country united, it is necessary to give due respect to every regional culture. For example in South India ‘DHOTI’ is being put without an under knot (Langger) whereas in the Jat culture, those wearing Dhoti without an under knot (Langger) are called uncivilised or Lafangas.
    9. Prayer: It is humbly prayed to do the needful for the community. It may be submitted that in no case would the Jat community tolerate marriages within the same Gotra. It is, therefore, prayed that necessary amendment in the Hindu Marriage Act 1955 may be brought about to preserve the Gotra/Khap system among Jats, as under:-
    The following paras may be included into section 3 after sub-clause-IV in the said Act.
    V) Jat Community has right to avoid at least two gotras (Self & Mother) for marrige alliances and it would be mandatory.
    VI) Jat Community has right to uphold tradiations of Khap wherever prevailing this system in Jat Living region.
    Thanking you in anticipation.
    Yours faithfully,
    Dated: 25-10-2009 Hawa Singh Sangwan (Ex. Comdt. C.R.P.F)Mob.- 09416056145
    Encl: An Affidavit President - Akhil Bharitia Jat Aarakshan

    Copy To:-
    National Women Commision
    Dated:-28-03-2010

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to dhayal120 For This Useful Post:

    sukhbirhooda (April 20th, 2012)

  13. #30

    Same gotra marriage and role of khap panchayat

    Hi all,

    I am new in Jatland and recently join the community. Saying now on Same gotra marriage and Role of khap panchayat in Jat community.

    Now a days, we are waching on TV channals about "Honour Killing" in north india or in Capital of India and NCR. I agree with love marriage, inter cast marriage instead of Same gotra, same village. In the others socity, religions why does not any one marriage with his blood sitser and has any parents allowed this type of marriage?

    This is our culture where we obey the rules of socity and saying all gotra and village persons are our brothers and sister. This one showing that we are in socity of India, where we repect our relation in comparision of money and parties example: Bangal, Kerla where politions rules on all the socity and make rules according. On comments of Arjun and Subdra, my comment : In our socity Mama's girl is not real sister as per our history.

    As per NDTV, honor killing is in North India not in South India, In south India, people sufix the name of his father not a Gotra which will change in 50 years of life of a person.

    I will submit others comments in others sections.

  14. #31
    Crime and criminals are common in all the world. What's that the khaps to do with. HARYANA is much far in these foul things as compared to states like UP,bengal ,bihar, maharashtra ,south india etc.Even khaps are social reformers and do good job in checking and eradicating these illicit things..It is totally the fault of our ministers and authorities that absurd topic against khaps are published in nationalised news papers.We people of haryana shold not take it lightly ,.,.after all it is a question of our dignity

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to gathwal For This Useful Post:

    phoolkumar (January 16th, 2012)

  16. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by satenderrose View Post
    Hi all,

    I am new in Jatland and recently join the community. Saying now on Same gotra marriage and Role of khap panchayat in Jat community.

    Now a days, we are waching on TV channals about "Honour Killing" in north india or in Capital of India and NCR. I agree with love marriage, inter cast marriage instead of Same gotra, same village. In the others socity, religions why does not any one marriage with his blood sitser and has any parents allowed this type of marriage?

    This is our culture where we obey the rules of socity and saying all gotra and village persons are our brothers and sister. This one showing that we are in socity of India, where we repect our relation in comparision of money and parties example: Bangal, Kerla where politions rules on all the socity and make rules according. On comments of Arjun and Subdra, my comment : In our socity Mama's girl is not real sister as per our history.

    As per NDTV, honor killing is in North India not in South India, In south India, people sufix the name of his father not a Gotra which will change in 50 years of life of a person.

    I will submit others comments in others sections.
    Kap pancayat ka kaam sai hai..........same village aur same gotra me sadi ni honi chahiye....... agar koi na mane in rules ko to pyar se samjhao aur fir bhi na mane to KHATAM.......
    aaj same gotra me sadi kar rahe hain ,kal ko padose me sadi karenge......ye sab rokne ki liye khap panchayat bilkul sahi kaam kar rahi hai.

    South side me like kerla aur chennai, same village me bhi shadi karte hain, yaha k rules alag hain aur apni side k alag, inke rules k according to shadi k liye ladka 27-28 k aas pass ka hota hai aur ladki 22 se upar......agar yaha ki humare yuva itni he nakal karte hain to itne din ruk k phir shadi karo.......mere batte 12 pass karte koni aur chori gail bhag ja se...... pache un ne pakadte raho......

    KHAP PANCHAYAT BILKUL SAHI KAAM KAR RAHI HAI APNI PARACHIN SANSKRITI KO BACHANE K LIYE.............
    Regards

    VIKAS DHANKHAR





    THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IN THE WORLD IS AN IDEA.:rolleyes:
    THE MOST DANGEROUS PERSON IN THE WORLD IS ONE WITH AN IDEA....!!!!!!
    :rolleyes:

  17. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by VivekGathwala View Post
    गोत्तर विवाद पर सभी की अपनी अपनी राय हैं नजरिया हैं | सब एक बात पर तो सहमत हैं की खुद और माँ के गोत्तर में ब्याह गलत हैं | चौधरी साहब जैसे लोग खाप की मुखालफत करते हैं खुद के गाँव खेड़े में ब्याह को जायज ठहराते हैं | खाप प्रणाली सिर्फ देशवाली जाटों में हैं पंजाबी जाटों में इसका रूप जत्थों ने ले लिया | बागड़ी जाटों की खाप प्रणाली रजवाड़े आने से खत्म हो गई | यही कारण हैं की खाप प्रणाली खत्म होने से बागड़ी जाट शारीरिक व मानसिक रूप से रजवाड़ो के अधीन हो कर रह गए उनकी सोच गुलाम हो कर रह गई अगर ये बागड़ी जाट अपनी खाप प्रणाली मजबूत रखते तो इनका राज ख़त्म नहीं होता | राजस्थान में जाटों की आबादी राजपूतों से कम नहीं हैं | आज अगर जाट का नाम आता हैं तो लोगो के जेहन में यही आता हैं के हरयाणा या पश्चिमी उत्तर प्रदेश का होगा ना के राजस्थान का , राजस्थान का तो नाम आते ही रजवाड़ो की बू आती हैं | इसका कारण सिर्फ यहाँ की खाप प्रणाली हैं जो आज तक मजबूत हैं | चौधरी साहब कोई पहले या नए व्यक्ति नहीं हैं जो खाप के खिलाफ लिखते या बोलते हैं |



    कइयो का कहना हैं के खाप खामखा के मुद्दे उठाती हैं , गाँव में गलियों शिक्षा बिजली आदि का ख्याल नहीं करती | इस सब के लिए सरकार ने एक पंचायती राज बना रखा हैं जो अपना काम करता हैं , जिसका सदस्य किसी भी जाति वर्ग से हो सकता हैं | खाप का काम अपने समाज के संस्कार संस्कृति के मान सम्मान को बचाना होता हैं |
    दो चार दिन पहले NDTV पर एक प्रोग्राम में पचौरी साहब ने कहा के लोग 21vi सदी में जा लिए ये खाप वाले पता नहीं कहा जी रहे हैं , इनको तकनिकी विकास भी चाहिए और ऊपर से ये गोत्तर विवाह भी | कोई उससे पूछे की तकनिकी विकास चाहने के लिए क्या अब भाई को बहन से शादी करनी पड़ेगी ? यह लोग कैसे हमे मुर्ख बना रहे हैं कैसे हमे तोड़ रहे हैं यदि हम इनकी बातो में आ गए तो हमारी सोच इनकी गुलाम हो जाएगी हम खत्म हो जायेंगे |
    इतिहास उठकर देखे तो सबसे ज्यादा संत सूरमे जाट कौम में जन्मे हैं जिसका कारण हमारा यह गोत्तर प्रणाली ही हैं | अगर या टूंट गई तो जाटों में भी हिजड़ो की फ़ौज हो जाएगी |
    जैसा की खाप पंचायत ने अपने मसौदे में गोत्तर के साथ साथ गाँव खेड़े पडोसी गाँव छोड़ने की बात कही |
    रही बात honour killing की तो कोई खाप कभी किसी को नहीं मरवाती न ही मारने का आदेश देती | हर खाप पंचायत में ऐसी शादी करने वालो को सिर्फ गाँव छोड़ने का हुकुम सुनाती हैं | यदि हमारे कानून में संसोधन हो जाता हैं तो ऐसी शादियों पर काफी हद तक नकेल कस जाएगी अगर कोई करेगा भी तो गाँव में नहीं आएगा जिससे इन् "honour killing " में भी कमी आएगी |
    Vivek bhai ya baat to sahi kahi aapne. kap panchayat ka kaam gaam ki galiya saaf karna ya bijli arrange karana ni hai.

    per bhai ye baat bhi hai ki khap panchayat kuch case me marne ka bhi order deti hai. mere gaam me aisa case hua tha jisme ladke-ladki k gharwalo ne kaha ki dono ko maar do to khap panchayat ne bhi han kar di unhe ek baar bhi ni roka. unone gaam bhi chod diya tha lekin unhe talah kar k gaam me le aaye aur dono ko maar diye. is case me mujhe khap panchayat ki galti lagi.
    Regards

    VIKAS DHANKHAR





    THE MOST DANGEROUS THING IN THE WORLD IS AN IDEA.:rolleyes:
    THE MOST DANGEROUS PERSON IN THE WORLD IS ONE WITH AN IDEA....!!!!!!
    :rolleyes:

  18. #34
    worth reading

  19. #35
    Firstly, I think individuals should understand why we our culture is not allowing same gotra marriages.
    If they follow up this,I think we would be able to curb it.

    Secondly I strongly oppose honor killing. Some alternatives like counselling may help to separate the individuals.
    But killing someone is something henious act.
    -- Freedom is not worth having if it does not include the freedom to make mistakes.
    -- When you talk, you are only repeating what you already know. But if you listen, you may learn something new.

  20. #36
    hamen kya karna chahiye iska samay ab aa chuka hai. Arthat janvaron ki tarah insan ko bhi vyavhar karna chahiye. Ek Gay(Cow), ek bhains(Buffelow), Ek bakri(Goat) aaj jis nar(male) bachche ko janm de rahi hai vo bada hokar usi man(Mother) se santan(next generation) paida karne ka upkram kar leta hai to kya insan bhi jaanvar ban jaanaa chahiye iska javab kiske pas maujood hai ?

  21. #37
    Bijarniyan Ji, Humen apne samaaj mein iske naam pe kyaa vidhaan chahiye, I think wo hum jaante bhi hain aur samjhte bhi hain....so doosre samajik samudaayon, jaatiyon aur dharmon se to humen koi sarokaaar hi nahin hona chahiye is mudde par. Kyonki hamaare liye kyaa uttam hai hum sirf wahi nirdharit kar sakte hain doosre samaaj ki doosra samaaj jaane.

    To jaise ki mudda aata hai shadi-byaah ka to, I think Gotra system can prevail a minimum by leaving the self and mother's gotra. Rest if someone wants to leave Dadi and Nani gotra also that can be left upto their social conditions and preferences. [

    Like mera Gotra malik hai aur Khap "Gathwala". Aur choonki meri Khap ne Malik gotra ke failaav ko dekhte hue naani ke gotra se nijaat de di hai aur agar "Daadi" gujar chuki hain to hum Daadi ka bhi gotra pote ki shadi ke liye consider kar sakte hain....lekin fir bhi aur jaise ki meri family mein aaj bhi meri daadi ke gujrane ke baad bhi mere dada (daadi ke maayka) se hamaare madhur sambhandh hain to hum aaj bhi daadi ka gotra chhodte hain.....so aise agar koi itni lambi nibha sakta hai to nibhaaye par haa ek nyuntam satar jo khaap ne nirdharit kar diya hum uske daayre mein hi hain.......

    so is tarah is system mein minimum common agenda bhi nibh jata hai society ka aur lambi ristedaari bhiQ

    UOTE=BLBijarniyan;282900]hamen kya karna chahiye iska samay ab aa chuka hai. Arthat janvaron ki tarah insan ko bhi vyavhar karna chahiye. Ek Gay(Cow), ek bhains(Buffelow), Ek bakri(Goat) aaj jis nar(male) bachche ko janm de rahi hai vo bada hokar usi man(Mother) se santan(next generation) paida karne ka upkram kar leta hai to kya insan bhi jaanvar ban jaanaa chahiye iska javab kiske pas maujood hai ?
    [/QUOTE]

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