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Thread: Research on history of Jat clans

  1. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Bashgali Jat clan in Afghanistan

    Bashgali (बशगली) (Bash) Jat clan is found in Afghanistan.

    Bashgali is partly converted to Islam. Their women wear the horned head-dress which was peculiar to the ancient Jata of Kashghar. The proper name of this tribe is Bash or Posh, which represents the Pausikai of Herodotus, and Pasianoi of Strabo, and the Paishae of the Afghans. ( An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan By H. W. Bellew, The Oriental University Institute, Woking, 1891, p.146 )

    Bashgali Kafir inhabit the country north of the Waegali, the valleys running south-east from Hindu Kush to the Kunar river at Birkot, and represent a tribe of different stock from the Rajput and Indian races. Biddulph says, the Kafir are separable into three main tribes, viz. : the Rumgali or Lumgali (Lughmani) who inhabit the upper valleys running south-west from Hindu Kush ; the Waegali, who inhabit the valleys running south-east from Hindu Kush to Kunar Valley at Chaghan Sarae ; and the Bashgali who inhabit the upper valleys farther north, running south-east to Kunar Valley at Birkot. These divisions may mean, Rumgali (Ramakula, or Ramadeva, Rahtor), Rajput tribes ; Bashgali (Bash-kula, or Pashae, or Pausikai) Skythian Jata tribes ; and Waegali (Bai-kula, or Boioi), Greek tribes.( An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan By H. W. Bellew, The Oriental University Institute, Woking, 1891, p.1467)

    बुरडक जी ,आज भी कुछ अफगानी मुस्लिम जातिओं में ओरतें माथे पर बिंदी का टाटू बनवाती हैं ,जो की उनकी परम्परा का परतीक हे |
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

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  3. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    After the Rajputs acquired political ascendancy, the Bards [court singers] and Bhatts This stated the phenomenon of upward and downward mobilisation of caste heirarchy in the Indian society.

    Gradually to rise on the ladder of social heirarchy some people even among the Jats began to believe in the bardic stories and this has caused the distortion in history of social system of India. The situation has come to such a pass that one fails to recognise or understand where the myth starts and where the history ends. None is in a position to say a final word with certainty in such a perplexing position !

    Thanks
    राजपाल जी मेने पहले भी लिखा था की ये कोई मुस्किल काम नहीं हे , बशर्ते की नकली इतिहासकार नहीं होने चाहिए | १०००-१५०० साल पुराने इतिहास को दुरस्त करने में कोई मुस्किल्नाही आणि चाहिए ,क्योंकि इनके पुख्ता सबूत मौजूद हैं ,बाकी आजकल तो वैज्ञानिक तरीके से भी सच्चाई का पता लगाया जा सकता हे ,होप्लोग्रूप द्वारा |
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

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  5. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by ravinderjeet View Post
    बुरडक जी ,आज भी कुछ अफगानी मुस्लिम जातिओं में ओरतें माथे पर बिंदी का टाटू बनवाती हैं ,जो की उनकी परम्परा का परतीक हे |
    Raviji, that is a very interesting observation. Can you share some pics or references?
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

  6. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    Raviji, that is a very interesting observation. Can you share some pics or references?

    में कोशिश करुंगा |
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

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  8. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by ravinderjeet View Post
    राजपूतों में लगभग २०० जातियां हैं ,जिनमे राजपूताने के राजपूत अपने आप को उंचा मानते हैं , माउंट आबू के यज के पश्चात अनेक जातियां राजपूतों में शामिल होती चली गई | जो जाती जितनी बाद में शामिल होई उस जाती को उतना नीचा स्थान मिला | सबसे नया उधाहरण डोगराओं का हे जो पिछले ५०-१०० सालों से अपने आप को राजपूत कहने लगे हैं |
    रविन्द्र जी
    राजपूत बनने की प्रक्रिया अभी भी जारी है. मैं कुछ परिवारों को जानता हूँ जो दरोगा कहलाते थे क्योंकि वे गोली की संतान थे. गोली प्रथा राजस्थान में प्रचलित थी. गोली नामक स्त्री जागीरदारों में दुल्हन के साथ दहेज़ में आती थी. हाल में देखा कि सभी दरोगा राठोड़ लिखने लग गए हैं. अब उनको दरोगा कहने से चिढ होती है.
    Laxman Burdak

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  10. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    रविन्द्र जी
    राजपूत बनने की प्रक्रिया अभी भी जारी है. मैं कुछ परिवारों को जानता हूँ जो दरोगा कहलाते थे क्योंकि वे गोली की संतान थे. गोली प्रथा राजस्थान में प्रचलित थी. गोली नामक स्त्री जागीरदारों में दुल्हन के साथ दहेज़ में आती थी. हाल में देखा कि सभी दरोगा राठोड़ लिखने लग गए हैं. अब उनको दरोगा कहने से चिढ होती है.
    Burdakji, kya aap is pratha pe thodi aur roshni dalenge? I have never heard of this practice before. Apki post se lagta hai ki yeh custom rajput jagirdar aur 'goli' kahi jaane wali mahila ke saath avaidh rishton ko badava deta tha. Kya goli bann ne wali mahila bhi rajput hoti thi?
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

  11. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    रविन्द्र जी
    राजपूत बनने की प्रक्रिया अभी भी जारी है. मैं कुछ परिवारों को जानता हूँ जो दरोगा कहलाते थे क्योंकि वे गोली की संतान थे. गोली प्रथा राजस्थान में प्रचलित थी. गोली नामक स्त्री जागीरदारों में दुल्हन के साथ दहेज़ में आती थी. हाल में देखा कि सभी दरोगा राठोड़ लिखने लग गए हैं. अब उनको दरोगा कहने से चिढ होती है.
    Burdakji,

    Bilkul sahi farmaya aapne;

    Shekhawati area mein pichhale tees/chalisa varson mein bahut kuch aisa hi hua hei. Daroge aapne aap ko aab Shekhawat likhne lage hein aur Jati puchhane per Daroga hone ka koi jikar nahin karate, mein aise kai logon ko khud janata huen Jo Jhunjhunu zile ke kai purane Shekhawat Thikanedaron kee golion/dasion [sewadari ke liye dahej mein aiye mahilayon] kee santan hein.

    Azadi se pahale yeh samaney pratha jari thee. jab thikanedar kee saadi hoti thee to uske dulhan ki sewa ke liye maid servants ke rup mein ladkiyan dee jaati thee woh goli/dasi aur unki bina vivah utpan santan daroga kahlate thhe; we bhi thikanedar ke sewa mein lage rahate the aur unke ghar parivar per thikhanedar ka pura adhikar hota tha.

    Thanks

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  13. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by ravinderjeet View Post
    राजपूतों में लगभग २०० जातियां हैं ,जिनमे राजपूताने के राजपूत अपने आप को उंचा मानते हैं , माउंट आबू के यज के पश्चात अनेक जातियां राजपूतों में शामिल होती चली गई | जो जाती जितनी बाद में शामिल होई उस जाती को उतना नीचा स्थान मिला | सबसे नया उधाहरण डोगराओं का हे जो पिछले ५०-१०० सालों से अपने आप को राजपूत कहने लगे हैं |
    Friend,

    Rajputana ke Rajputs mein bhi Mewar ke Sisodia Rajputon ko sabse uncha darza prapat raha hei baaki saab unse niche mane jate hein.

    Thanks.

  14. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by ravinderjeet View Post
    राजपूतों में लगभग २०० जातियां हैं ,जिनमे राजपूताने के राजपूत अपने आप को उंचा मानते हैं , माउंट आबू के यज के पश्चात अनेक जातियां राजपूतों में शामिल होती चली गई | जो जाती जितनी बाद में शामिल होई उस जाती को उतना नीचा स्थान मिला | सबसे नया उधाहरण डोगराओं का हे जो पिछले ५०-१०० सालों से अपने आप को राजपूत कहने लगे हैं |
    Ravinderjeeet Singh kee post se ek reference yaad aya hai jo aap sabhi se share karana chahunga kee kis tarah se naya rajya sathapit karane wala vamsa Brahaminon kee nazar mein chhota hi rahata tha.

    Sadashiv rao Bhau/Bhao, Peshawa ka chhota Bhai aur Panipat kee tisari ladai mein Maratha senaon ka general Maharashtra ke chipawan brahmin vamsa se sambandh rakhta tha.

    Bhau Bakhar namak samkalin marathi granth mein reference aata hei kee jab Sindhia [ruler of Gwalior] aur Holkar (Ruler of Indore] ne use Abdali ke khilaf yudh yozna mein Bharatpur ke Maharaja Surajmal ko bhi samil karane ke liya manane kee baat kahi.

    [Jat Maharaja Bhao kee Bharatpur area mein lootpat, Delhi mein rajadhani kee buildings se silver/gold lootne aur Mathura mein Surajmal ke saath vartalap mein talkhi kee harkaton se naraj hokar unka saath chorane ka man bana raha tha, jiskee suchana Sindhia aur Holkar thee aur woh donon Jat Raja kee importance ko samajhate the.]

    Is baat per Bhao ne unhe phatkarate hue kaha kee tum 'gadariyaon' aur 'charwaho' kee baat maan kar mein ek mamuli 'zamindar ' ko kyon manane laga!

    Is ghamandi dwara samakalin teen rajgharon ke mukhiyon ka tirsakar kitana mahanaga para, aap sabhi janate hein!

    Itihas mein if or but ke liya koi sathan nahin hota lekin sochane pe mazboor hona padta hein kee Brahmin Jaati ka ghamand anya bhartiyon ko aapne saath lekar Afghan akarmankari ko kadi takkar dene mein asphal raha woh apni confederacy ke do generals ke sujhav ka naram shabdon mein bhi jawab de sakta tha aur Jat Maharaja ke liya mamuli zamindar shabd ka prayog nahin kar sakta tha.

    N B : After about 1740 A D, the Maratha confederacy had five equally important participants namely Holkar, Sindhia, Gaekwar [Ruler of Baroda], Bhonsale [Ruler of Nagpur] and Peshwa [at Pune]. The Peshwa nominally chaired the proceedings of the meetings because he represented the post of PRIME MINISTER since the times of Shivaji [1674-80 AD].
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 3rd, 2012 at 07:45 PM.

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  16. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    रविन्द्र जी
    राजपूत बनने की प्रक्रिया अभी भी जारी है. मैं कुछ परिवारों को जानता हूँ जो दरोगा कहलाते थे क्योंकि वे गोली की संतान थे. गोली प्रथा राजस्थान में प्रचलित थी. गोली नामक स्त्री जागीरदारों में दुल्हन के साथ दहेज़ में आती थी. हाल में देखा कि सभी दरोगा राठोड़ लिखने लग गए हैं. अब उनको दरोगा कहने से चिढ होती है.

    Ferishta tells us the same reason for origin of this social group many centuries ago in his book The History of Rise of Mohammedan Power in India.

    In volume 1, an introductory chapter on Hindus . He explains the process of origin of this group in detail which he came to know from people of this land in earlier times .

    You can read this book here..

    persian.packhum.org/persian/main

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  18. #231
    Gulaal Movie directed by Anurag Kashyap also depicts this where This Goli (played by Inspector Abhijit of CID fame) ultimately get acceptance and becomes their leader in the end.

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  20. #232
    Dr Rajpalji has explained Goli tradition of Rajputs in detail. There is one novel also named 'Goli' which I read in early childhood. But no Rajput records tell this tradition. This was a precess of social upward movement. Goli were not Rajputs as they are not supposed to serve others and were always in curtain. Not only Goli but the Nai of Jagirdars have also become Rajputs. Rajputs over period of a few generations accepted them in their class but degraded one.
    Last edited by lrburdak; August 3rd, 2012 at 09:15 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  22. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    Kharbji, another question. If Jat as an identity is ancient and was already in place when the Jat tribes moved into India proper from the North West, do the Vedas mention this? Do they address them as Jats or as individual tribes? Is there a way to verify this?
    Yes they do ,not only Veda but even zendavesta mention them both as a group name as well as tribe name that later became older clans of Jats.

    But Vedas are very new to Indian soils while Jats are much older than Veda for Indian soils .

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  24. #234
    Narendraji, when we talk of mention of Jats in epics we should accept this fact that it is not necessary to find word Jat only in epics. Most Jats were recognized by their clans. So if Jat clans find mention we can accept existence of Jats at that period.
    Laxman Burdak

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  26. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Dr Rajpalji has explained Goli tradition of Rajputs in detail. There is one novel also named 'Goli' which I read in early childhood. But no Rajput records tell this tradition. This was a precess of social upward movement. Goli were not Rajputs as they are not supposed to serve others and were always in curtain. Not only Goli but the Nai of Jagirdars have also become Rajputs. Rajputs over period of a few generations accepted them in their class but degraded one.

    Laxman ji
    Britishers clearly explained in case Hilly regions how a lower group changed to this group by different methods it is there in census reports of British India where authors recorded this live process in his reports.

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  28. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Narendraji, when we talk of mention of Jats in epics we should accept this fact that it is not necessary to find word Jat only in epics. Most Jats were recognized by their clans. So if Jat clans find mention we can accept existence of Jats at that period.
    Laxman ji ..What do you say they were present but not recorded as Jats??

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  30. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Yes they do ,not only Veda but even zendavesta mention them both as a group name as well as tribe name that later became older clans of Jats.But Vedas are very new to Indian soils while Jats are much older than Veda for Indian soils .
    Kharb Sahib,

    You are absolutely correct.

    The coming of 'Aryans' and various Jat clans in India is quite earlier than the composition of Veda Mantras in their present form of Samhitas or Vedas because earlier there continued tradition of oral chanting of mantras for a considerable period of time.

    Thanks and regards
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 3rd, 2012 at 09:38 PM.

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  32. #238
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Laxman ji
    Britishers clearly explained in case Hilly regions how a lower group changed to this group by different methods it is there in census reports of British India where authors recorded this live process in his reports.
    Friend,

    The British were very keen observers of the social changes in India and they have produced a lot of literature on the issue as pointed by you.

    Upward/downward swing in the caste heirarchy i.e. caste mobilization in Indian society is one of the constant phenomenon witnessed through the ages. Because of changes in ones economic status and political power sharing the social status automatically changed for better and in case of lose of higher economic status and political standing vice verse has happened. The same has been explained by the British chroniclers in full detail while compiling matter for Government Gazetteers, Handbooks for the use of officers of a specific area, Settlement Reports and Census Reports etc.

    Thanks and regards.

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  34. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by ravinderjeet View Post
    राजपाल जी मेने पहले भी लिखा था की ये कोई मुस्किल काम नहीं हे , बशर्ते की नकली इतिहासकार नहीं होने चाहिए | १०००-१५०० साल पुराने इतिहास को दुरस्त करने में कोई मुस्किल्नाही आणि चाहिए ,क्योंकि इनके पुख्ता सबूत मौजूद हैं ,बाकी आजकल तो वैज्ञानिक तरीके से भी सच्चाई का पता लगाया जा सकता हे ,होप्लोग्रूप द्वारा |
    Bhai Sahib,

    Pukhata saboot ikathe karane ke liye hi to yeh saari maathapachi ho rahi hai kyonki kisi bhi ek vyakti ke liya sare saboot ikatha karana aur unka tulanatamak adhyan karake itihas kee bhrantiyan dur karana ashmbava nahin to katheen kaam avsya hai.

    Aaj ke scientific methods ko prayog mein lane ke liye bhee team work kee zaroorat padti hai kyonki akela [chahe woh nakali ho ya asali] Itihaskaar kuchh ziyada kaam nahin kar sakata!

    Thanks.

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  36. #240
    Char or Chawara clan

    I reproduce from [Wiki]An Inquiry Into the Ethnography of Afghanistan[/Wiki] (Pages 165-166) By H. W. Bellew which gives some interesting information.
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    The next tribe of the Sharkhbun branch of the Sarbani Afghan is the Shirani, called also [Wiki]Char[/Wiki] ([Wiki]Chawara[/Wiki] or Chaora Rajput). The Chaora, according to Colonel Tod (Annals of Rajasthan), was once a renowned tribe in the history of India, though its name, he says, is now scarcely known, and its origin is veiled in obscurity. It belongs neither to the Solar race nor the Lunar race, and is probably of Skythic descent. The name is unknown in Hindustan, and is confined, with many others originating beyond the Indus, to the peninsula of Saurashtra. If foreign to India proper, continues Tod, its establishment must have been at a remote period, as individuals of the tribe intermarried with the Surajbansi ancestry of the present princes of Mewar, when this family were the lords of Balabhi. The capital of the Chaora was the insular Deobandar, on the coast of Saurashtra, and the temple of Somnath, with many others on this coast, dedicated to Balnath, is attributed to this tribe of the Saura or worshippers of the sun. It was Vena Raja or Banraj, prince of Deo, who, 746, A.D., laid the foundation of Anhalwara, which his dynasty ruled for one hundred and eighty-four years, when Bhojraj, the seventh from the founder and the last of the Chaora, was deposed, 931 A.D., by his own daughter's son, Mulraj of the Solanki tribe. Mulraj ruled Anhalwara for fifty-eight years. During the reign of his son and successor, Chawand or Chaond Rae, called Jamand by Muhammadan historians, Mahmud of Grhazni invaded the kingdom of Anhalwara, and drained it of its immense riches, for Anhalwara was at that time the entrepot of the productions of the eastern and the western hemispheres.

    [Page-166]:Anhalwara recovered fully from the devastations of Mahmud, and we find Sid Rai Jay Sing, the seventh from the founder, and who ruled from 1094 to 1145 A.D., at the head of the richest if not the most warlike kingdom of India. Twenty-two principalities at one time owned his power, from the Karnatic to the base of the Himalaya. His successor was displaced by the Chohan, Prithvi Raja, who set on the throne Komarpal, who then, quitting his own Chohan tribe, entered that of the Solanki. Both Sid Rae and Komarpal were patrons of Buddhism. The end of Komarpal's reign was disturbed by the lieutenants of Shahabuddin ; and his successor, Ballo Maldeo, closed his dynasty in 1228 A.D., when the Bhagela dynasty, descendants of Sid Rai, succeeded. Under the Bhagela rule dilapidation from religious persecution were repaired, Somnath rose from its ruins, and the kingdom of the Bahlika Rae was attaining its pristine magnificence, when, under Gahla Karan, the fourth prince, Alauddin invaded and annihilated the kingdom of Anhalwara, sacked and plundered the rich cities and fertile plains of Guzerat and Saurashtra. The statues of Buddha were everywhere cast down and mutilated, the books of his religion everywhere burned and destroyed. The city of Anhalwara was razed to the ground and its very foundations dug up. The remnants of the Solanki dynasty were scattered over the land, and this portion of India remained for upwards of a century without any paramount head, when its splendour was renovated, and its foundations rebuilt by Saharan, Tak, a convert to Islam, under the name of Zapar Khan, who, with the title of Muzaffir, ascended the throne of Guzerat, which he left to his son, Ahmed who founded Ahmadabad.

    I have made this lengthy extract from Tod's "Annals of Rajasthan," because it throws much light upon the affinities of several of the modern Pathan tribes of the Suleman range and Indus frontier. The Chawand Rae, called Jamand by Muhammadan writers, is evidently the source of the Zamand division of the Kharshbun branch of the Sarabani Afghan; and Komarpal's quitting his own Chohan tribe and entering that of Solanki, is clearly the origin of the Afghan account of Shirani's quitting the Sarabani and entering the Ghurghushti branch of the Afghan nation.
    Laxman Burdak

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