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Thread: Genetic Analysis of my DNA

  1. #121
    Reply in underlined and bold lines.



    1. People getting their own DNA If they insist on sticking to their biases, then they are idiots- doesn't harm you.

    Agreed.

    I don't think you have yet scientifically challenged anyone's inference here- yet.

    I asked for the 'research/peer reviewed claim, but it never came. So it doesn't exist. Well the, don't claim without evidence - that is the point.

    2. People with an "agenda" collecting myriad data points to make unscientific claims?

    Nobody goes around with stickers on their faces that they have a secret "agenda". One has to be cautious and educated about the possibilities. It is not for nothing that reputed institutions/governments invest so heavily to prevent ethical breachs such as privacy, use of donated material for other purpose than what it was intended for etc etc.
    This is worth having an issue about, but the people getting their DNA tested for their own purpose are not the ones to be blamed! Those with an agenda or those communicating it via media should be focused on. In your example, it is the newspaper that publishes such a ridiculous piece, that should be blamed.

    Preventing something is always better than trying to find a cure after it has happened. That is where education comes in.



    I also don't get why you are harping on about Jats getting associated with scheduled caste or marginalized people.


    Why not. Ask well versed Jat historians and you will find out various ways in which people with "agenda" have tried to recreate history and marginalize Jats.



    If you have a scientific issue with dubious claims, then it shouldn't matter whether the headline is about linking Jats to marginalized people or to a "great" ancestry, as long as it is dubious. But the way you are arguing, your issue seems more that you don't want Jats to be linked to Scheduled Castes, which is as much of a bias as the one you are supposedly arguing against

    Why do scheduled castes need reservation if they have not been marginalized? Any well versed Jat historian will tell you the contribution to Jats. There is no way their contribution should be marginalized. Let matter of fact remain so.


    . Surely, we shouldn't believe that Jats should stop DNA testing, lest the results link us to SCs.

    That is not the point. Get the tests done from reliable, ethically grounded sources - that is the point.


    Regards,

    Urmila.
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    Reply in underlined and bold lines.



    1. People getting their own DNA If they insist on sticking to their biases, then they are idiots- doesn't harm you.

    Agreed.

    I don't think you have yet scientifically challenged anyone's inference here- yet.

    I asked for the 'research/peer reviewed claim, but it never came. So it doesn't exist. Well the, don't claim without evidence - that is the point.

    2. People with an "agenda" collecting myriad data points to make unscientific claims?

    Nobody goes around with stickers on their faces that they have a secret "agenda". One has to be cautious and educated about the possibilities. It is not for nothing that reputed institutions/governments invest so heavily to prevent ethical breachs such as privacy, use of donated material for other purpose than what it was intended for etc etc.
    This is worth having an issue about, but the people getting their DNA tested for their own purpose are not the ones to be blamed! Those with an agenda or those communicating it via media should be focused on. In your example, it is the newspaper that publishes such a ridiculous piece, that should be blamed.

    Preventing something is always better than trying to find a cure after it has happened. That is where education comes in.



    I also don't get why you are harping on about Jats getting associated with scheduled caste or marginalized people.


    Why not. Ask well versed Jat historians and you will find out various ways in which people with "agenda" have tried to recreate history and marginalize Jats.



    If you have a scientific issue with dubious claims, then it shouldn't matter whether the headline is about linking Jats to marginalized people or to a "great" ancestry, as long as it is dubious. But the way you are arguing, your issue seems more that you don't want Jats to be linked to Scheduled Castes, which is as much of a bias as the one you are supposedly arguing against

    Why do scheduled castes need reservation if they have not been marginalized? Any well versed Jat historian will tell you the contribution to Jats. There is no way their contribution should be marginalized. Let matter of fact remain so.


    . Surely, we shouldn't believe that Jats should stop DNA testing, lest the results link us to SCs.

    That is not the point. Get the tests done from reliable, ethically grounded sources - that is the point.


    Regards,

    Urmila.
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    Reply in underlined and bold lines.



    1. People getting their own DNA If they insist on sticking to their biases, then they are idiots- doesn't harm you.

    Agreed.

    I don't think you have yet scientifically challenged anyone's inference here- yet.

    I asked for the 'research/peer reviewed claim, but it never came. So it doesn't exist. Well the, don't claim without evidence - that is the point.

    2. People with an "agenda" collecting myriad data points to make unscientific claims?

    Nobody goes around with stickers on their faces that they have a secret "agenda". One has to be cautious and educated about the possibilities. It is not for nothing that reputed institutions/governments invest so heavily to prevent ethical breachs such as privacy, use of donated material for other purpose than what it was intended for etc etc.
    This is worth having an issue about, but the people getting their DNA tested for their own purpose are not the ones to be blamed! Those with an agenda or those communicating it via media should be focused on. In your example, it is the newspaper that publishes such a ridiculous piece, that should be blamed.

    Preventing something is always better than trying to find a cure after it has happened. That is where education comes in.



    I also don't get why you are harping on about Jats getting associated with scheduled caste or marginalized people.


    Why not. Ask well versed Jat historians and you will find out various ways in which people with "agenda" have tried to recreate history and marginalize Jats.



    If you have a scientific issue with dubious claims, then it shouldn't matter whether the headline is about linking Jats to marginalized people or to a "great" ancestry, as long as it is dubious. But the way you are arguing, your issue seems more that you don't want Jats to be linked to Scheduled Castes, which is as much of a bias as the one you are supposedly arguing against

    Why do scheduled castes need reservation if they have not been marginalized? Any well versed Jat historian will tell you the contribution to Jats. There is no way their contribution should be marginalized. Let matter of fact remain so.


    . Surely, we shouldn't believe that Jats should stop DNA testing, lest the results link us to SCs.

    That is not the point. Get the tests done from reliable, ethically grounded sources - that is the point.


    Regards,

    Urmila.
    Well, for the most part, you have been arguing against (1), even though you say "agreed" here. You also paraphrased my statement as per your convenience, ostensibly to show that people you are arguing against are idiots. Clever, but counterproductive and not helpful.

    Respect to you that you point out that the evidence is not scientific. But then the protagonist here is willing to admit that his claim is not scientific, but based on anecdotal evidence. Instead of engaging him, you go ahead and insult him. How fair is that? And clearly you are not taking the stand of a skeptic, but that of an opponent to this argument. The skeptic would just say that the evidence is not sufficient. The opponent would point out contradictory evidence to the claims. The debate would have become more informed had you provided contradictory evidence. You have opposed with passion, but where is the supporting material?

    "Prevention is better than cure" is almost a laughable argument. What are you preventing? You need people's cooperation to prevent. The confrontational style of argument that you are adopting is not going to mak anyone cooperate with your agenda. And don't get me wrong- I don't mind confrontational style. But then you can't flex muscles like Sunny Deol and then claim to be Gandhian in outlook.

    Your argument about Jats vis-a-vis scheduled castes is self defeating. I hope it it not news to you that Jats themselves are demanding reservations!! And well, if it is news to you, then by your own logic, does "contribution of Jats" now stands "marginalized"? This, by far, is the most disappointing and illogical (almost craving for a false sense of pride) argument. You seem to suggest that Jats are some sort of heavenly creatures, whose contribution should not even be brought into question. Pray tell me, who are these well versed historians and what is this "contribution of Jats" that is so sacrosanct? You said- "Let a matter of fact remain so"- are you serious? A matter of fact doesn't need my mercy to "remain so". Earth is round and it revolves around the sun. That IS a matter of fact, and it remains so, whether I agree or not. What is a similarly undisputable fact about Jat history that you are defending? With some evidence, please....

  3. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to kapdal For This Useful Post:

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  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by kapdal View Post
    Well, for the most part, you have been arguing against (1), even though you say "agreed" here. You also paraphrased my statement as per your convenience, ostensibly to show that people you are arguing against are idiots. Clever, but counterproductive and not helpful.

    Respect to you that you point out that the evidence is not scientific. But then the protagonist here is willing to admit that his claim is not scientific, but based on anecdotal evidence. Instead of engaging him, you go ahead and insult him. How fair is that? And clearly you are not taking the stand of a skeptic, but that of an opponent to this argument. The skeptic would just say that the evidence is not sufficient. The opponent would point out contradictory evidence to the claims. The debate would have become more informed had you provided contradictory evidence. You have opposed with passion, but where is the supporting material?

    "Prevention is better than cure" is almost a laughable argument. What are you preventing? You need people's cooperation to prevent. The confrontational style of argument that you are adopting is not going to mak anyone cooperate with your agenda. And don't get me wrong- I don't mind confrontational style. But then you can't flex muscles like Sunny Deol and then claim to be Gandhian in outlook.

    Your argument about Jats vis-a-vis scheduled castes is self defeating. I hope it it not news to you that Jats themselves are demanding reservations!! And well, if it is news to you, then by your own logic, does "contribution of Jats" now stands "marginalized"? This, by far, is the most disappointing and illogical (almost craving for a false sense of pride) argument. You seem to suggest that Jats are some sort of heavenly creatures, whose contribution should not even be brought into question. Pray tell me, who are these well versed historians and what is this "contribution of Jats" that is so sacrosanct? You said- "Let a matter of fact remain so"- are you serious? A matter of fact doesn't need my mercy to "remain so". Earth is round and it revolves around the sun. That IS a matter of fact, and it remains so, whether I agree or not. What is a similarly undisputable fact about Jat history that you are defending? With some evidence, please....

    I saw no intelligent point/argument in your post.

    Good Luck!

    Urmila.
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

  5. #124
    It is very very important that the agency doing the DNA analysis testing should have no knowledge/information about the identity, region and religion of the sample being tested. Otherwise, there is a risk of the DNA result getting impacted by personal bias or some vested interest. Anyways, I see no reason for the DNA analysis/testing company to know about this information.

    Vivek, could you please let this forum know if the above is being followed?

    Also, the person/agency who is sending the samples for the DNA analysis should erase and destroy the mapping information (of the sample and the sample owner) after delivering the results, unless the sample owner is willing to make his identity public. In such a case, morality demands that the person be informed about the consequences of putting his identity publicly.

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    urmiladuhan (September 16th, 2011)

  7. #125
    [QUOTE=Arvindc;278137]It is very very important that the agency doing the DNA analysis testing should have no knowledge/information about the identity, region and religion of the sample being tested.

    The DNA sample is sent by post. So the region from where it is coming will be known to the company - a company that is interested in analyzing the sample for the purpose of linking it to a particular ethinicity, region etc. This is not a positive sign and people must be cautious in dealing with the company.

    Regards,

    Urmila.
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

  8. #126
    Dear friends,
    I have been following a lunatic idiot who is floating around in different Jatland threads.I had to state this as there was no other option. Now this has reached beyond the levels of any recorded case of insanity. I refrain from naming as I don’t have time for a personalized mud and filth slinging match here. The sole purpose of this doltish vagabond is to be visible in all the posts and be the center of attraction. The same individual is hell bent on destroying the context and theme of this thread also. I fail to understand the rational behind some of the post’s. I would like to state that no one is trying to put themselves into any preferred line of ancestry. The result of the test’s (haplogroups) are speaking for themselves and test’s are carried by renowned genealogist’ in world class labs and by world class DNA testing companies. Moreover, the logic that one test would make people scream about the ancestry of Jats in bad light if tested otherwise is again height of juvenile and irrational acumen. This obtuseness is beyond rational understanding. I am not an agent of any DNA testing company and would not tell people what to do and where to get themselves tested from, as everyone is educated and can take decisions on there on.
    During the course of this thread I read about the kits which someone was ready to part from his side. This is an effort worth appreciation.
    Now to tell all JATLAND members and other viewers I got myself tested from a company called 23andMe and received a free kit from Simranjit, I did my research and learnt that I would be the owner of my account and it would be within my rights to disclose my results and my secrecy would be maintained. This company under a marketing brand promoting strategy had offered additional kits as add on kits if someone tested from them. This way people could get there family members also tested without shelling extra bucks. Now even though the add on kits were free but still an individual has to pay a monthly amount of $9 on individual kit basis for maintaining there accounts, if they wish to, irrespective of this option, the individual gets the results and can download them.
    The other noted company in the field of DNA testing is FamilyTree DNA. This company also offers special price as promotional offers to its customers every now and then, so one has to keep a watch for any offers. For everyone’s information FTDNA might come with a discount once they reach 15000 friends on facebook so keep a watch for that. I have done quite a bit of searching in net and found the above two companies are leading the race in DNA testing field, this is my personal opinion, members can do there research also.
    National Geographic also runs an ancestry project and test’s for them were carried by Family Tree DNA. The test’s of National Geographic are very basic and tell only about one’s Haplogroup, in scientific language one can say they are not deep clad test’s. Those people who want to go deeper into there haplogroup subclads then revert back to FamilyTree DNA for further tests. So it is advisable that if someone is interested in National Geographic Project, they can get themselves tested with FT DNA and transfer there results to National Geographic. They can further save money by being a part of any Haplogroup project with FT DNA company as discounts are offered then.
    The above mentioned organizations are renowned and maintain secrecy of an individual’s account. Money wise 23andMe is less costly and offers SNP’s test which tell about the history of a haplogroup . Within any single Y haplogroup, there will be characteristic, or most likely, Y-STR values. However, the whole reason for doing the Y-STR testing is the added resolution that it offers. SNP tests only can determine ancestry on the order of thousands of years, whereas the Y-STR markers, with the much higher mutation rates, can provide information on the last few hundred years. Y STR Markers are tested by FT DNA and not by 23andMe. Further FT DNA offers to store sample for 25 years whereas its only 5 years for National Geographic.
    Further to tell you why I got myself tested? because I had always been intrigued by the history of Jats and wanted to know a bit about my ancestry and had planned to get myself tested, opportunity came calling when Simranjit offered the extra kits he had, I took the decision on my own .
    Next I found that in different DNA ancestry projects, samples of Jat population are close to nothing so for further studies atleast some samples should be there for references when it comes to sample races from Northern India. Nobody can tweak my ancestry as my test speak for themselves. Already I have noticed a great deal of interest by some of the genealogist’s about certain haplogroups found amongst Jats, which they think have solely originated from Northern parts of India, Pakistan and Afghanistan but they don’t have the required DNA samples to study from. More study on such haplogroup’s and with more samples would be helpful in viewpoints that some of central asian races actually dwelt in places like northern Afghanistan, Pakistan and India ,Iran and later on migrated towards central Asia in search of new pastures. This theory is slowly gaining ground with more tests coming out of these regions.
    I cant paste links regarding my test results so as to dispel notions that are being spread that claims are made on their own .

    Now coming back to the crux and purpose of this thread, I had promised to apprise members of any inferences I get about my haplogroups.

    Below is the message i received from one of project leaders at FTDNA.

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  10. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by VIKRAM18MALIK View Post
    Dear friends,

    Now coming back to the crux and purpose of this thread, I had promised to apprise members of any inferences I get about my haplogroups.

    Below is the message i received from one of project leaders at FTDNA.
    Yes, the consensus is that U5 originated in Europe over 37,000 years
    ago, and it is very likely that U5a and U5b (and some of their
    daughter groups) spent the last glacial maximum in refugia in southern
    Europe and the Ukraine. I'm guessing that they could also have been
    farther south, perhaps Asia Minor at that time, or even as far as
    India. We have an unusual U5b result from India that could be more
    than 20,000 years old, and I would not be surprised if we find more
    very old U5a and U5b subclades in India.


    U5a1a1 is much younger - it has been estimated to be about 6,000 years
    old. It also seems to have a very large population for such a young
    group (at least compared to other U5 subclades) and this makes me
    wonder if it might have been present in Asia Minor or southeast Europe
    among early agriculturalists, and then spread to Europe with the
    expansion of agriculture. I think we have a lot to learn by looking
    at results from the sub-continent.


    Best,
    Gail

  11. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Arvindc View Post
    It is very very important that the agency doing the DNA analysis testing should have no knowledge/information about the identity, region and religion of the sample being tested. Otherwise, there is a risk of the DNA result getting impacted by personal bias or some vested interest. Anyways, I see no reason for the DNA analysis/testing company to know about this information.

    Vivek, could you please let this forum know if the above is being followed?

    Also, the person/agency who is sending the samples for the DNA analysis should erase and destroy the mapping information (of the sample and the sample owner) after delivering the results, unless the sample owner is willing to make his identity public. In such a case, morality demands that the person be informed about the consequences of putting his identity publicly.
    Dear Arvind,

    All your apprehensions are taken care of by the testing company i got tested and the other one FT DNA as well as National Geogrphic

  12. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by Arvindc View Post
    All the genetics guys and girls,

    Do these genetics tests also tell the futuristic things like life expectancy, the diseases to which the person is very prone or resistive, the default personality types and lots of other things that are attributed to genetics? Or are these just to find out the historic information about parental origination and human movement?
    23andMe has more of an expertise in Health related analysis and FT DNA has more expertise in Ancestry related analysis. Further you can check with there websites.

  13. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by VIKRAM18MALIK View Post
    Hello friends,


    Male
    Most likely fit is 17.8% (+- 0.5%) Europe (all Northeast Europe)
    and 82.2% (+- 0.5%) S. Asia (all Pakistan)

    The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
    most likely at the top
    Russian= 0.182 Sindhi= 0.818
    Finland= 0.173 Sindhi= 0.827

    However, you fit a bit better as some three-fold mix of 0.123 Russian plus 0.671 Pathan
    (Pashtun), which represents in our reference collection a ‘more European’ S. Asian, and
    0.206 “North India” which really is Brahmin and upper caste India. The Russian
    just appears to be “north European” as Finland fits equally well. It (Russian)
    probably just means “more European” than our comparison S. Asians.

    I’m sending more than the usual number of plots ... to fit well, you
    have to average the same on each one.

    Doug McDonald

    I would be posting other results as well pretty soon once i get them.For the other Jat tested, maybe the Dalal gotra individual would post results himself or i may post similar sort of analysis for him as well.
    To check with the doctoring in the results of Dr McDonald based on ethic origins. I sent my data but in the name of Lithuanian national .Here are the results almost same

    genome_ARTURAS_SAVICKAS_Full_20110910145895.txt
    Male
    Most likely fit is 17.8% (+- 0.5%) Europe (all Northeast Europe)
    and 82.2% (+- 0.5%) S. Asia (all Pakistan)

    The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
    most likely at the top
    Russian= 0.182 Sindhi= 0.818
    Finland= 0.173 Sindhi= 0.827

    a “best fit” seems to be Russian=0.129 Kalash=0.148 Pathan(Pashtun)=0.559 North_India=0.165
    a next best is Lithuania=0.104 Kalash=0.102 Pathan(Pashtun)=0.625 North_India=0.169
    This does not look Lithuanian! It looks to be, by all the tests I have, just what the
    above says: 1/8 Russian or Lithuanian, the rest from South Asia somewhere.

    Doug McDonald

    So at least the above two reports should bring some sanity .

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  15. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by VIKRAM18MALIK View Post
    To check with the doctoring in the results of Dr McDonald based on ethic origins. I sent my data but in the name of Lithuanian national .Here are the results almost same

    genome_ARTURAS_SAVICKAS_Full_20110910145895.txt
    Male
    Most likely fit is 17.8% (+- 0.5%) Europe (all Northeast Europe)
    and 82.2% (+- 0.5%) S. Asia (all Pakistan)

    The following are possible population sets and their fractions,
    most likely at the top
    Russian= 0.182 Sindhi= 0.818
    Finland= 0.173 Sindhi= 0.827

    a “best fit” seems to be Russian=0.129 Kalash=0.148 Pathan(Pashtun)=0.559 North_India=0.165
    a next best is Lithuania=0.104 Kalash=0.102 Pathan(Pashtun)=0.625 North_India=0.169
    This does not look Lithuanian! It looks to be, by all the tests I have, just what the
    above says: 1/8 Russian or Lithuanian, the rest from South Asia somewhere.

    Doug McDonald

    So at least the above two reports should bring some sanity .

    How did you get the numbers? Details please.

    Thanks!
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

  16. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    I saw no intelligent point/argument in your post.

    Good Luck!

    Urmila.
    That may very well be the case. But you can't doubt my effort in tackling your arguments, can you? (intelligence isn't in my hands, effort is). Now even if you find my arguments as unintelligent, you can atleast put some effort in answering just the fact-based questions that will surely enlighten the community. I bold below the two questions (the non-rhetorical ones) again for your perusal. Answers will be much appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by kapdal View Post
    Well, for the most part, you have been arguing against (1), even though you say "agreed" here. You also paraphrased my statement as per your convenience, ostensibly to show that people you are arguing against are idiots. Clever, but counterproductive and not helpful.

    Respect to you that you point out that the evidence is not scientific. But then the protagonist here is willing to admit that his claim is not scientific, but based on anecdotal evidence. Instead of engaging him, you go ahead and insult him. How fair is that? And clearly you are not taking the stand of a skeptic, but that of an opponent to this argument. The skeptic would just say that the evidence is not sufficient. The opponent would point out contradictory evidence to the claims. The debate would have become more informed had you provided contradictory evidence. You have opposed with passion, but where is the supporting material?

    "Prevention is better than cure" is almost a laughable argument. What are you preventing? You need people's cooperation to prevent. The confrontational style of argument that you are adopting is not going to mak anyone cooperate with your agenda. And don't get me wrong- I don't mind confrontational style. But then you can't flex muscles like Sunny Deol and then claim to be Gandhian in outlook.

    Your argument about Jats vis-a-vis scheduled castes is self defeating. I hope it it not news to you that Jats themselves are demanding reservations!! And well, if it is news to you, thenby your own logic, does "contribution of Jats" now stands "marginalized"? This, by far, is the most disappointing and illogical (almost craving for a false sense of pride) argument. You seem to suggest that Jats are some sort of heavenly creatures, whose contribution should not even be brought into question. Pray tell me, who are these well versed historians and what is this "contribution of Jats" that is so sacrosanct? You said- "Let a matter of fact remain so"- are you serious? A matter of fact doesn't need my mercy to "remain so". Earth is round and it revolves around the sun. That IS a matter of fact, and it remains so, whether I agree or not. What is a similarly undisputable fact about Jat history that you are defending? With some evidence, please....

  17. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to kapdal For This Useful Post:

    cooljat (September 19th, 2011), ravinderjeet (September 21st, 2011), ritu (September 16th, 2011)

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