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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Jathera
    History and study of the Jats. By Professor B.S Dhillon (p.113) explains about Jathera.

    Can somebody write a para on Jathera so as to add to Jatland Wiki.

    Why is Jathera tradition not found in Rajasthan Jats ?

    बुरडक जी ,हरयाणा में भी ये परम्परा हे | हम इससे धोक या भईयाँ कहते हैं | यहाँ पर जब दुहला घुड चढ़ी पर जाता हे या बरात चढ़ने से पहले दिया (धोक =दाहक=अग्नि )जलाता हे और अन्न का चढ़ावा चढ़ाता हे और विवाह के अगले दिन कूँआ ,जोहड़ ,और भईयाँ पर पति पत्नी को गाँव की औरतें गीत गाते हुए साथ ले जा कर धोक मरवाती हैं | ये असल में हमारी जल को और हमारे पूरवजों को पूजने की परम्परा का ही एक अंग हे | ज्यादातर जब पहली बार कोई पूर्वज जिस ने ये गाँव बसाया हो और उनोहने जहां पर आग जलाई हो उस्सी स्थान को भईयाँ बना दिया जाता था | इस भईयाँ पर धोक जाट ही लगाते हैं बाकी जातियों को हमने ये परम्परा निभाते नहीं देखा हे | अभी तक गाँव में ये परमपरा रही हे की घर में आग को बुझने नहीं दिया जाता था | आग को चूल्हे या हारे में राख के नीचे दबा कर रखा जाता था | और जिस के घर में आग बुझी रहती थी या अकसर बुझ जाती थी ऐसी घर वाली औरत को फूहड़ या गेर जिम्मेदार माना जाता था | हमारी ये आग पाणी और चीत्ण (चित्र ) बनाने पूजने की परम्परा भारत में इरान से आकर बसे पारसीओं से बहुत मिलती जुलती हे | जठेरे का शाब्दिक मतलब जेष्ठ या बड़ा होता हे | हरयाणा में बड़ेरे भी बोल देते हैं ,सिंध में वडेरे शबद का इस्तेमाल धनी या जमींदार के लिए प्रयोग किया जाता हे | मेने एक बार पढ़ा था की शिवलिंग वास्तव में जट्टों द्वरा आग को दबाये रखने का स्थान होता था और उस के चारों और एक नाली खोद दी जाती थी और एक ओर पाणी निकासी का पर्बंध कर दिया जाता था ताकि अगर आगे -पीछे कहीं से पाणी आ जाए तो वो उस आग को ना बुझा पाए | क्योंकि जाट अग्नि को पवित्र मानते थे और इस रूपमे उस को जलाए रखते थे | कालान्तर में उस्सी स्थान को भईयाँ ,धोक या जठेरे बोला जाने लगा | भाम्नों ने उस को शिवलिंग का रूप दे दिया और मंदिर बना कर पूजने लग गए , और अनेक झूठी कहानियां घड दी |
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

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  3. #82

    Indian sub-continent's Independence Movement and Jats

    Louis Rousselet and Charles Randolph Buckle wrote:




    "At the commencement of our century the Jats of the Punjab, known, since their conversion to the precepts of Namuck, under the name of Sikhs, succeeded in founding a very powerful kingdom, under Runjeet Singh; and Napoleon, seeing their power increasing, conceived the idea of overthrowing, with the help of the Sikh Jats, the English dominion in India. For this purpose he sent French officers to them, such as Allard, Ventura, Avitabile, and others, who made the Sikh army the finest native force in India. This great Scythian race, which, under the various names of Yuti, Getes, Juts, Jats, or Sikhs, has shown so much power and vitality, still furnishes the very best native soldiers to the empire."



    Reference:


    * Rousselet, Louis; Buckle, Charles Randolph (1882). India and its native princes. Travels in Central India and in the presidencies of Bombay and Bengal. London Bickers.
    Last edited by Moar; September 12th, 2012 at 02:02 PM.

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  5. #83
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    Jats are considered to be the best Agriculturist in the world. But it is strange that the highest population of Jats is in the Desert area of Rajasthan which is unsuitable for agriculture.
    Laxman Burdak

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  7. #84
    ढिल्लों साहब ने जिस जठेरां का जिक्र किया हैं , पंजाब में आज भी यह प्रथा कायम हैं और जाट अपने अपने गोत्र के जठेरों पर माथा टेकने जाते हैं , जठेरों के नाम से मेले लगते हैं | जून साहब ने भी अपनी किताब में लिखा हैं की जाट अपने पुरखों की पूजा में विश्वाश रखते हैं और इस प्रथा को भैयाँ बोलते हैं | पहले जाटों के गाँव में मंदिर के नाम पर भैयाँ के एलवा शिवालय होते थे क्योंकि शिव भी जाटों के पूर्वज हैं | जब ब्राह्मणवादी लोगो ने देखा की उत्तर भारत में जाटों की आबादी सबसे ज्यादा हैं और जाट सिर्फ अपने पूर्वजो की पूजा में यकीन रखते हैं इसलिए यहाँ हिन्दू धर्म की पकड़ बनाना कठिन हैं तो इन लोगो ने एक सोची समझी चाल के तहत जाटों को राजी करने के लिए जाटों के ही पूर्वजों शिव हनुमान आदि को भगवान के रूप में प्रस्तुत किया ताकि जाट विरोध में ना खड़े हो और अपनी इस चाल में यह लोग कामयाब भी रहे | राजस्थान के जाटों में इस प्रथा का ना होने का कारण राजपुताना रहा होगा | अगर किसी समाज या जाति को अपने अधीन करना हैं तो उस जाति की मानसिकता व भावनाओ पर कब्ज़ा करना होगा इसलिए राजपुताना जो की एक तरह से ब्राह्मणवादी सोच के लोगो का राज था ने सबसे पहले जाटों की इस प्रथा का खात्मा किया |
    " जाट हारा नहीं कभी रण में तीर तोप तलवारों से ,
    जाट तो हारा हैं , गद्दारों से दरबारों से
    |"

    " इस कौम का ईलाही दुखड़ा किसे सुनाऊ ?
    डर हैं के इसके गम में घुल घुल के न मर जाऊँ || "
    ...........................चौ.छोटूराम ओहल्याण

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  9. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moar View Post
    Louis Rousselet and Charles Randolph Buckle wrote:




    "At the commencement of our century the Jats of the Punjab, known, since their conversion to the precepts of Namuck, under the name of Sikhs, succeeded in founding a very powerful kingdom, under Runjeet Singh; and Napoleon, seeing their power increasing, conceived the idea of overthrowing, with the help of the Sikh Jats, the English dominion in India. For this purpose he sent French officers to them, such as Allard, Ventura, Avitabile, and others, who made the Sikh army the finest native force in India. This great Scythian race, which, under the various names of Yuti, Getes, Juts, Jats, or Sikhs, has shown so much power and vitality, still furnishes the very best native soldiers to the empire."



    Reference:


    * Rousselet, Louis; Buckle, Charles Randolph (1882). India and its native princes. Travels in Central India and in the presidencies of Bombay and Bengal. London Bickers.
    Friend,

    Good information but heading of the post is not elaborated.

    The services of the french mercenary generals was purchased by Maharaja Ranjit Singh to train his forces on the latest pattern of military training of those times which was used to expand his kingdom.

    But the Maharaja never tried to lead attack against the then British government of India forces as he used his armed strength to overcome the indigenous rival petty states. When he came face to face with the British, he arrived at an agreement with them not to cross or attack cis-Sutlej Sikh native states too and thus wisely saved his Lahore Durbar Govt. which fell prey in 1849 A.D. to dynastic feud and the British machinations within ten years of passing away of Maharaja Ranjit Singh in 1839 A.D.

    regards
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; September 19th, 2012 at 04:38 PM.

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  11. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Good information but heading of the post is not elaborated.

    The services of the french mercenary generals was purchased by Maharaja Ranjit Singh to train his forces on the latest pattern of military training of those times which was used to expand his kingdom.

    But the Maharaja never tried to lead attack against the then British government of India forces as he used his armed strength to overcome the indigenous rival petty states. When he came face to face with the British, he arrived at an agreement with them not to cross or attack cis-Sutlej Sikh native states too and thus wisely saved his Lahore Durbar Govt. which fell prey in 1849 A.D. to dynastic feud and the British machinations within ten years of passing away of Maharaja Ranjit Singh in 1839 A.D.

    regards

    Dear Sir, Louis Rousselet ( Louis-Théophile Marie Rousselet ), the co-author of the book, was Himself a French national, and a travel writer.

    He wrote, "....Napoleon, seeing their power increasing, conceived the idea of overthrowing, with the help of the Sikh Jats, the English dominion in India."


    Napoleon would agree to send the best of His officers to India, only & only if He has planned something big out of it !!

    Yes, things didn't go according to Napoleon's plans, but this kind of an alliance must have been a result of a well thought-out plan.

    Furthermore, Napoleon Bonaparte left this world on 5 May 1821; that would have left the Jats exclaimed; and this must have overturned the plan !! Without a direct command from Napoleon, the French armed forces wouldn't move to Punjab in large significant masses !!

    And, We all are well aware of the kind of attitude Napoleon used to have towards Britain.


    ----

    Dr. Rajpal, sometimes people have reasons to think that Your pen has been inked by the so called 'official' data ?!

    ----

    Dr. Rajpal, do You know, Napoleon knew very well that with whom He was dealing with (in Punjab) :

    "The Russian Cossacks like the “Jutts” of Panjab are also of Scythian descent. “What men! They are real Scythians! Napoleon is said to have exclaimed at the sight of a thundering charge by Cossack cavalry, as his tattered forces fought end-less years after their barbaric domination of central Russia had been ended; the magnificent Scythian warriors of the Pontic Steppes lived on – as a byword for ferocity and daring." ( Source : sikhpioneers.org )
    Last edited by Moar; September 20th, 2012 at 07:56 PM.

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  13. #87

    Scythian Jattiyan !!

    Herodotus reported that the Sarmatians were descendants of Amazons and Scythians, and that their wives observed their ancient maternal customs, "frequently hunting on horseback with their husbands; in war taking the field; and wearing the very same dress as the men". Moreover, said Herodotus, "No girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle".




    In the story related by Herodotus, a group of Amazons was blown across the Maeotian Lake (the Sea of Azov) into Scythia near the cliff region (today's southeastern Crimea). After learning the Scythian language, they agreed to marry Scythian men, on the condition that they not be required to follow the customs of Scythian women.
    Last edited by Moar; September 20th, 2012 at 07:25 PM.

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  15. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Jathera
    History and study of the Jats. By Professor B.S Dhillon (p.113) explains about Jathera. Jats tend to continue to follow their ancient custom of worshipping their common ancestors. In the Punjabi language, it is called the "Jathera" worship. Usually, it is mandatory in rural areas for newly wed Jats to visit and worship the village "Jathera" shrine, erected in the fields, usually a day after their wedding day, with fanfare.

    Can somebody write a para on Jathera so as to add to Jatland Wiki.

    Why is Jathera tradition not found in Rajasthan Jats ?

    According to Herodotus, when a Scythian king died, his wives (after their death) were buried along with him. The mounds were erected at the gravesite. In today's Panjab, a small memorial is raised at the gravesite of an important elder, and it is called Jathera which is venerated by the descendants of the deceased. ( Source : sikhpioneers.org )


    Initiated the Article : [Wiki]Jathera[/Wiki]
    Last edited by Moar; September 20th, 2012 at 07:37 PM.

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  17. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moar View Post
    Dear Sir, Louis Rousselet ( Louis-Théophile Marie Rousselet ), the co-author of the book, was Himself a French national, and a travel writer.

    He wrote, "....Napoleon, seeing their power increasing, conceived the idea of overthrowing, with the help of the Sikh Jats, the English dominion in India."


    Napoleon would agree to send the best of His officers to India, only & only if He has planned something big out of it !!

    Yes, things didn't go according to Napoleon's plans, but this kind of an alliance must have been a result of a well thought-out plan.

    Furthermore, Napoleon Bonaparte left this world on 5 May 1821; that would have left the Jats exclaimed; and this must have overturned the plan !! Without a direct command from Napoleon, the French armed forces wouldn't move to Punjab in large significant masses !!

    And, We all are well aware of the kind of attitude Napoleon used to have towards Britain.


    ----

    Dr. Rajpal, sometimes people have reasons to think that Your pen has been inked by the so called 'official' data ?!

    ----

    Dr. Rajpal, do You know, Napoleon knew very well that with whom He was dealing with (in Punjab) :

    "The Russian Cossacks like the “Jutts” of Panjab are also of Scythian descent. “What men! They are real Scythians! Napoleon is said to have exclaimed at the sight of a thundering charge by Cossack cavalry, as his tattered forces fought end-less years after their barbaric domination of central Russia had been ended; the magnificent Scythian warriors of the Pontic Steppes lived on – as a byword for ferocity and daring." ( Source : sikhpioneers.org )
    Dear Moar Sahib,

    With due regards to your zeal for research on the Jat history and your scholarship, kindly permit me to say that I definitely know that Napoleon never dealt with neither the people of Punjab nor Maharaja Ranjeet Singh who was during that period just emerging as a native ruler of note in this part of India. [Kindly read some books first on M. Ranjeet Singh and Napoleon Bonaparte before jumping to comment on this post. If I am proved wrong, I am ready to apologize and withdraw my comments].

    You are free to think as you deem fit about me but I take the opportunity to request you kindly not to under estimate value of historical data on the issue being debated. Could you cite one line of agreement or visit of either Sikh or French ambassadors or envoys either at Paris or at Lahore. Do you think Maharaja Ranjeet Singh had emerged as a sole leader of the Sikhs during the hey days of Napoleon Bonaparte[1798-1813] as he later on fell prey to his own doings and was defeated at the battle of Waterloo in 1815 and sent die as prisoner subsequently.

    On what basis could you declare that sikhpioneers.org is a historical research data centre and use it as a whip to punish others who do not fall in line to your point of view.

    Whether it is palpatable to somebody or not, the self glorification of some people in the absence of documentary support cannot be accepted as a historical fact. This is the fact of the matter that according to research studies conducted so far there has emerged no alliance between Singh and Bonaparte at any point of time.

    Please pay more attention to improve your knack for historical research, dig out original sources and then come out to contest others, instead of labeling a student of history like me : whose 'pen according to you has been inked by the so called 'official' data.

    Could you be kind enough to explain the meaning of the words and phrases :'so called' and 'official' used in your post.

    Another difficult sentence in your post to be dissected is :"Furthermore, Napoleon Bonaparte left this world on 5 May 1821; that would have left the Jats exclaimed; and this must have overturned the plan !! Without a direct command from Napoleon, the French armed forces wouldn't move to Punjab in large significant masses !!"


    Wah dost, Kya gulabi angrezi likhte ho !

    Regards.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; September 20th, 2012 at 11:16 PM.

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  19. #90
    Btw, Moar Saab’s zeal for Jat Genetics & Greek Mythology also no less appreciable!!

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Dear Moar Sahib,

    With due regards to your zeal for research on the Jat history and your scholarship, ...............

    Regards.

  20. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Jats are considered to be the best Agriculturist in the world. But it is strange that the highest population of Jats is in the Desert area of Rajasthan which is unsuitable for agriculture.
    Nothing can be said with certainity on the issue but it can be conjectured that in the earlier times the climatic conditions and atmosphere of Rajputana was favourable for agricultural pursuits. Comparatively peaceful conditions may be other reason for earlier settlement of these areas.

  21. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by raka View Post
    ढिल्लों साहब ने जिस जठेरां का जिक्र किया हैं , पंजाब में आज भी यह प्रथा कायम हैं और जाट अपने अपने गोत्र के जठेरों पर माथा टेकने जाते हैं , जठेरों के नाम से मेले लगते हैं | जून साहब ने भी अपनी किताब में लिखा हैं की जाट अपने पुरखों की पूजा में विश्वाश रखते हैं और इस प्रथा को भैयाँ बोलते हैं | पहले जाटों के गाँव में मंदिर के नाम पर भैयाँ के एलवा शिवालय होते थे क्योंकि शिव भी जाटों के पूर्वज हैं | जब ब्राह्मणवादी लोगो ने देखा की उत्तर भारत में जाटों की आबादी सबसे ज्यादा हैं और जाट सिर्फ अपने पूर्वजो की पूजा में यकीन रखते हैं इसलिए यहाँ हिन्दू धर्म की पकड़ बनाना कठिन हैं तो इन लोगो ने एक सोची समझी चाल के तहत जाटों को राजी करने के लिए जाटों के ही पूर्वजों शिव हनुमान आदि को भगवान के रूप में प्रस्तुत किया ताकि जाट विरोध में ना खड़े हो और अपनी इस चाल में यह लोग कामयाब भी रहे | राजस्थान के जाटों में इस प्रथा का ना होने का कारण राजपुताना रहा होगा | अगर किसी समाज या जाति को अपने अधीन करना हैं तो उस जाति की मानसिकता व भावनाओ पर कब्ज़ा करना होगा इसलिए राजपुताना जो की एक तरह से ब्राह्मणवादी सोच के लोगो का राज था ने सबसे पहले जाटों की इस प्रथा का खात्मा किया |
    Good reasoning. We have created page on Jatland Wiki and compiled here all Jathera places so far available on our site. You may see here - [Wiki]Jathera[/Wiki]
    Last edited by lrburdak; September 21st, 2012 at 12:52 PM.
    Laxman Burdak

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  23. #93
    Dr. Rajpal, You are not answering / replying, but "reacting" ?!

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  25. #94

    Scythian Jattiyan !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Moar View Post
    Herodotus reported that the Sarmatians were descendants of Amazons and Scythians, and that their wives observed their ancient maternal customs, "frequently hunting on horseback with their husbands; in war taking the field; and wearing the very same dress as the men". Moreover, said Herodotus, "No girl shall wed till she has killed a man in battle".




    In the story related by Herodotus, a group of Amazons was blown across the Maeotian Lake (the Sea of Azov) into Scythia near the cliff region (today's southeastern Crimea). After learning the Scythian language, they agreed to marry Scythian men, on the condition that they not be required to follow the customs of Scythian women.

    Dr. Samar Abbas has also discovered the same during His research-work, He writes :


    ". . . . it is interesting to note numerous reference to the fighting ability, combat skills, bravery and great freedom of Jat women - the Jat amazons."


    Source : http://www.iranchamber.com/history/a...serbs_jats.php
    Last edited by Moar; September 23rd, 2012 at 09:38 AM.

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  27. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Good reasoning. We have created page on Jatland Wiki and compiled here all Jathera places so far available on our site. You may see here - Jathera

    बहुत-बहुत धन्यवाद बुरडक जी |
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

  28. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moar View Post
    Dr. Rajpal, You are not answering / replying, but "reacting" ?!
    Moar Sahib,

    I accept that I have no capacity to reply to all the questions raised by you but this does not invalidate my joining the discussion.

    But so long as discussion is progressing you cannot claim that answers/replies are not pouring in. For example, to prove your hypothesis about Scythian origin of the Jats , you have been very diligently enlightening us. I think that this cannot be considered a mean contribution to the research on Jat History by any stretch of imagination.

    In the meanwhile you are welcome to come up with specific question so that I could try my hands on that to my utmost capacity.

    Keep it up, please.

    Regards

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    Punia is mentioned in the Ain-i-Akbari

    [Wiki] A glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province By H.A. Rose Vol II/J[/Wiki],p.363 writes -

    We may regard Shiva here as the earth-god and the Shivaotri as autochthones. In Hissar, where they are few in numbers, they say that their forefather was created from the matted hair of Shiva, who consequently was named Jat Budhra. Regarding their origin there is no historical account. But tradition tells that one of the clan, named Barh, became , master of a large portion of Bikaner ; where, at first he created a village which he called after his name ; and thereafter went and resided at Jhansal, where his descendants live to this day, and which ilaqa belongs to them. He had 12 sons: — Punia. Dhania, Chachrik, Bali, Burbura, Sulukhun, Chiria, Chandia, Khok, Dunaj, Liter, and Kakkar. From these sprang 12 sub-divisions. (Khok is also a Gil muhin. Punia was ancestor of the Punnu). The descendants of the first were most in number, and had the largest possessions. They owned the country round Jhansal which was called the Punia ilaqa and which is mentioned in the Ain-i-Akbari.
    Laxman Burdak

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  32. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Punia is mentioned in the Ain-i-Akbari

    A glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North-West Frontier Province By H.A. Rose Vol II/J,p.363 writes -

    We may regard Shiva here as the earth-god and the Shivaotri as autochthones. In Hissar, where they are few in numbers, they say that their forefather was created from the matted hair of Shiva, who consequently was named Jat Budhra. Regarding their origin there is no historical account. But tradition tells that one of the clan, named Barh, became , master of a large portion of Bikaner ; where, at first he created a village which he called after his name ; and thereafter went and resided at Jhansal, where his descendants live to this day, and which ilaqa belongs to them. He had 12 sons: — Punia. Dhania, Chachrik, Bali, Burbura, Sulukhun, Chiria, Chandia, Khok, Dunaj, Liter, and Kakkar. From these sprang 12 sub-divisions. (Khok is also a Gil muhin. Punia was ancestor of the Punnu). The descendants of the first were most in number, and had the largest possessions. They owned the country round Jhansal which was called the Punia ilaqa and which is mentioned in the Ain-i-Akbari.
    Congrts for this Very interesting information Burdakji,

    It would be good if you could cite the page and volume of Ain-i-Akbari which would facilitate scholars to cite the information and identify the Jhansal [Punia Ilaqa] on this very import clan of the Jats.
    regards,

  33. #99
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    Punia has been mentioned by James Legge : a record of Buddhistic Kingdoms, "Chapter xiv: Death Of Hwuy-King In The Little snowy mountains. Lo-e. Pohna. Crossing the Indus to the east.

    The Chinese traveller Fa-Hien reached Mathura after crossing Sindhu River through the following route:

    Udyana (present Swat) → Kandahar → Taxila → Purushpur → Hilda → Kigdom of Lo-e → Kingdom of Poh-na → Bhida (Punjab) → Mathura

    This is in 404 AD. Fa-Hien had moved through the Land of Ponya or Punia.
    Laxman Burdak

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    What is Jathera ?

    Among the Hindu and Sikh Jats, especially in the north- central and central Districts of Punjab, a form of ancestor-worship is common, called jathera. It is the custom of many clans, or of a group of villages of one clan, for the bridegroom at his wedding (biāh or shādi) to proceed to a spot set aside to commemorate some ancestor who was either a shahid (martyr) or a man of some note. This spot is marked by a mound of earth, or it may be a pakka shrine. The bridegroom bows his head to the spot and walks round it, after which offerings are made both to the Brahman and the Lāgi.† If the mound is of earth, he throws a handful of earth upon it. The name given to the jathera may be, and generally is, that of an ancestor who was influential, the founder of the tribe, or who was a shahid.

    Note - To know more go to the link on Jatland - [Wiki]Jathera[/Wiki]
    Laxman Burdak

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