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Thread: History of Janghu Jat Gotra

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Kindly let him share his findings, please.

    Some hard facts/evidence to prove that it is 'propaganda by blacks and nothing more' is expected' as the right reply at your end.
    His claims are not supported by the genetic evidence from that area, be it of today or ancient one.

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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Thanks, very good info indeed. Please share anything what you can related to this and better if we can compare it with other communities.
    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public/sikh/default.aspx?section=yresults

    https://www.familytreedna.com/

    https://www.fullgenomes.com/
    Last edited by paulgill; May 23rd, 2015 at 01:46 AM.

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  5. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Thanks for information provided.

    We eagerly wait for the post of your promised further links/information.
    Please look at this link and the relationship of Xiongnu people with YueZie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang

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  7. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    Please look at this link and the relationship of Xiongnu people with YueZie.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xiongnu

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang
    Thanks for the information.

    The Xiongnu and Yutchi or white Hun had close relations and were tribes of central Asia of the yore who disturbed stability of many an existing empires. The word Xiongnu used here has different pronunciations and it seems has changed from time to time over the years.

    Pronunciation of 匈
    Source: http://starling.rinet.ru[/TH]
    [/TR]

    and also that the historians have tried to identify their hoary past i.e. pre-classic Old Chinese times.

    The following extract from Wikipedia would make it clearer:


    Since the early 19th century, a number of Western scholars have proposed a connection between various language families or subfamilies and the language or languages of the Xiongnu. Albert Terrien de Lacouperie considered them to be multi-component groups.[1] Many scholars believe the Xiongnu confederation was a mixture of different ethno-linguistic groups, and that their main language (as represented in the Chinese sources) and its relationships have not yet been satisfactorily determined.[43] Kim rejects "old racial theories or even ethnic affiliations" in favour of the "historical reality of these extensive, multiethnic, polyglot steppe empires".[44]
    Chinese sources link the Tiele people and Ashina to the Xiongnu, not all Turkic peoples.[2] According to the Book of Zhou and the History of the Northern Dynasties, the Ashinaclan was a component of the Xiongnu confederation,[45][46] but this connection is disputed,[47] and according to the Book of Sui and the Tongdian, they were "mixed nomads" ( / 杂胡, Pinyin: z h, Wade–Giles: tsa hu) from Pingliang.[48][49] The Ashina and Tiele may have been separate ethnic groups who mixed with the Xiongnu.[2] Indeed, Chinese sources link many nomadic peoples (hu; see Wu Hu) on their northern borders to the Xiongnu, just as Greco-Roman historiographers called Avars and Huns "Scythians". The Greek cognate of Tourkia (Greek: Τουρκία) was used by the Byzantine emperor and scholar Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus in his book De Administrando Imperio,[50][51] though in his use, "Turks" always referred to Magyars.[52] Such archaizing was a common literary topos, and implied similar geographic origins and nomadic lifestyle but not direct filiation.[53] Modern Uyghurs claimed descent from the Xiongnu (according to Chinese history Weishu, the founder of the Uyghur Khaganate was descended from a Xiongnu ruler),[54] but many contemporary scholars do not consider the modern Uyghurs to be of direct linear descent from the old Uyghur Khaganate because modern Uyghur languageand Old Uyghur languages are different.[55] Rather, they consider them to be descendants of a number of people, one of them the ancient Uyghurs.[56][57][58]


    In the light of the above position the question rises if it relates to modern day Janghu Jats in some way or not. If yes, how. If not, why ?

    Could further light be thrown on the questions by the participants to clear the mist.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; May 23rd, 2015 at 09:29 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  9. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Thanks for the information.

    The Xiongnu and Yutchi or white Hun had close relations and were tribes of central Asia of the yore who disturbed stability of many an existing empires. The word Xiongnu used here has different pronunciations and it seems has changed from time to time over the years.

    In the light of the above position the question rises if it relates to modern day Janghu Jats in some way or not. If yes, how. If not, why ?

    Could further light be thrown on the questions by the participants to clear the mist.
    All don't belong to them, many are just seeking their lost relatives, but some do claim their origin from them. In any case genetic connection need to be there to justify any claim of relationship.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults

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  11. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    All don't belong to them, many are just seeking their lost relatives, but some do claim their origin from them. In any case genetic connection need to be there to justify any claim of relationship.

    https://www.familytreedna.com/public...frame=yresults
    Thanks for sharing the technical information from FIDNA Learning Centre on the issue. I cannot make out much about what it is as this is new field for me,

    Nonetheless, now it is open for those who want to know their Family tree DNA tested or not from the agency to know their roots.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  13. #67
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    We face difficulty in pronouncing Chinese words. We also don't know about interchanging laws. I give a para from Jatland itself -

    The Shiji mentions the "Qilian mountains" together with Dunhuang as the homeland of the Yuezhi. A scholar however has suggested that the name here refers to the mountains now known as Tian Shan, 1,500 km to the west, and Dunhuang may be the Dunhong mountain. Qilian is said to be as a Xiongnu word meaning "sky" by Yan Shigu, a Tang Dynasty commentator on the Shiji.

    Qilian is said to be related with Jat clan - Gill

    Gill (q→k→g)
    Laxman Burdak

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    paulgill (May 25th, 2015)

  15. #68
    As per my personal knowledge, Jhanghu gotra originated in Rajasthan, later they started moving towards present Haryana Bhalout {old Rohtak}, Mauri in Bhiwani , and you will find Jhanghu in Daultabad near Gurgaon. Lal Chand Bhalothia{Jhanghu} Founder of DLF Ltd, was a famous jat figure. Jhanghu and Bhalothia are the same gotra as per my findings

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  17. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    We face difficulty in pronouncing Chinese words. We also don't know about interchanging laws. I give a para from Jatland itself -

    The Shiji mentions the "Qilian mountains" together with Dunhuang as the homeland of the Yuezhi. A scholar however has suggested that the name here refers to the mountains now known as Tian Shan, 1,500 km to the west, and Dunhuang may be the Dunhong mountain. Qilian is said to be as a Xiongnu word meaning "sky" by Yan Shigu, a Tang Dynasty commentator on the Shiji.

    Qilian is said to be related with Jat clan - Gill

    Gill (q→k→g)
    Gill are basically Y-Dna Haplogroup L1c = L3 = L-M357

    http://www.geneancestry.com/learning-center/article/30

    It is yet to be seen if the L1c-M357 among Jatts is the same as among the Pathans and when they branched off from each other. Someone is trying to find that out through further DNA tests, and we will have an answer soon, hopefully.

    http://www.thefullwiki.org/Haplogroup_L_%28Y-DNA%29

    I think 20 to 30% Jatts are L-M357. About 30 to 40% are R1a1a

    http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/sho...group-L1c-M357

    http://www.bionity.com/en/encycloped...8Y-DNA%29.html

    http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthre...on-of-L1c-M357

    http://everything.explained.at/Haplo...L_%28Y-DNA%29/
    Last edited by paulgill; May 25th, 2015 at 09:50 AM.

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  19. #70
    Thanks for the post, Gill sahab!

    To be honest, I hardly have any understanding of this DNA stuff so I could not churn out much. Earlier, I also tried to understand this DNA stuff but rather it confused me. I have few questions for you if could fetch answer to me..few of them could be misleading as i earlier expressed my knowledge on subject

    - most common DNA in India is R1a1a...from punjab to bengal...bengal brahmins having it very significantly..present among tribals also...so to distinguish jat/jatt from others.
    - similarly L1c is present among south indian population also...so how do we figure out the ancestory..from the origin of the chromosome and its density. For example if L1c is found most in pashtuns and originated in north pak..we figure that present gill jatts have that ancestory?

    - what is the sample size? . for example you tagged gill jatts as L1c. How many gill jatts were tested to confirm? It seems fair only if more than 50 sample of the Gill clan from all type of people, like, dark.light coloured, fair colored, short, long, weak etc are tested. If we test just 1 person from a clan who is smart and strong and we say it is r1a1a..and claaim indo-european ancestory..it does not fair enough to me..what do you say?

    - In another thread, you suggested to go for just DNA rathe ignoring other historical evidences...It does not seem logical to me. Just to rely on this too, we need to figure out other patterns. there are confusions and questions on which haplotype originated where and when. so still you are on cross roads. For example, if you as a jatt has R1a1a and a tribal bheel of rajasthan also has r1a1a and you only rely on this DNA stuff , you need to prove connection between you and that Bheel. DNA can be a good tool but it's only one of many tool but it can not be taken as a singleton to reconstruct the history
    Last edited by prashantacmet; May 25th, 2015 at 01:59 PM.
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  21. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Thanks for the post, Gill sahab!

    To be honest, I hardly have any understanding of this DNA stuff so I could not churn out much. Earlier, I also tried to understand this DNA stuff but rather it confused me. I have few questions for you if could fetch answer to me..few of them could be misleading as i earlier expressed my knowledge on subject

    - most common DNA in India is R1a1a...from punjab to bengal...bengal brahmins having it very significantly..present among tribals also...so to distinguish jat/jatt from others.
    - similarly L1c is present among south indian population also...so how do we figure out the ancestory..from the origin of the chromosome and its density. For example if L1c is found most in pashtuns and originated in north pak..we figure that present gill jatts have that ancestory?

    - what is the sample size? . for example you tagged gill jatts as L1c. How many gill jatts were tested to confirm? It seems fair only if more than 50 sample of the Gill clan from all type of people, like, dark.light coloured, fair colored, short, long, weak etc are tested. If we test just 1 person from a clan who is smart and strong and we say it is r1a1a..and claaim indo-european ancestory..it does not fair enough to me..what do you say?

    - In another thread, you suggested to go for just DNA rathe ignoring other historical evidences...It does not seem logical to me. Just to rely on this too, we need to figure out other patterns. there are confusions and questions on which haplotype originated where and when. so still you are on cross roads. For example, if you as a jatt has R1a1a and a tribal bheel of rajasthan also has r1a1a and you only rely on this DNA stuff , you need to prove connection between you and that Bheel. DNA can be a good tool but it's only one of many tool but it can not be taken as a singleton to reconstruct the history
    As I said before your history even if written in stone is not a real proof, the real proof of your lineage is only your Y lineage and for females it is their mtDna lineage. A bheel of R1a1a is more closely related to a R1a1a Jatt than the L-M357 Jatt to another R1a1a Jatt, that is why we have to get into testing Jatt Ydna. One might be very proud of his History, if there is such an unbroken account of one's history available, but when tested and if that person is found to carry British Y lineage, then all that history becomes meaningless.

    To definitely relate to someone ancient, one will need an ancient Dna match, Tarim Basin Mummies [YueZie area] are basically R1a. R1a1a is a very old subclade, so relationship at that level is not indicative of much as you can see here, http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/, one need to test for much younger subclades to find the age of relationship with other groups.

    It is not always difficult to ascertain the Ydna flow, even if the Bheel have the same Haplogroup, if both are tested, it will tell how far back they had a common ancestor, very very old relationship may tell that it is older than the Jatt identity, so meaningless to Jatt History, but the recent relation will show NPE[non parental event], adoption etc. Generally speaking R1a1a in Bheels and other tribals is an outside influence.

    For the origin of a Haplogroup or its sunclade, the diversity at a location is considered more important than its quantity, so that again is not really a big problem at all. And if ancient Dna is available then the job becomes even easier.

    History does not matter much as it is scanty at best and mostly biased thus unreliable and useless, it is more like garbage in and garbage out thingy. But if you can find the Tomb of a king and relate his Dna to someone alive today, then that certainly will make difference to that person's history.

    My information is not from a study but came from the people who have tested with FTDNA and 23andMe. Actually it looks more like 35% L-M357, 40% R1a1a, 10% R2, 5% J2, 2% G, 1% Q, 1% J1 and 6% other etc. R1a1a seem to be of IndoAryan[Scythian] origin, L-357 seem to belong to Iranic Tribes. Ancient samples and largescale testing will put an end to the speculation, I guess.

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  23. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    As I said before your history even if written in stone is not a real proof, the real proof of your lineage is only your Y lineage and for females it is their mtDna lineage. A bheel of R1a1a is more closely related to a R1a1a Jatt than the L-M357 Jatt to another R1a1a Jatt, that is why we have to get into testing Jatt Ydna. One might be very proud of his History, if there is such an unbroken account of one's history available, but when tested and if that person is found to carry British Y lineage, then all that history becomes meaningless.

    To definitely relate to someone ancient, one will need an ancient Dna match, Tarim Basin Mummies [YueZie area] are basically R1a. R1a1a is a very old subclade, so relationship at that level is not indicative of much as you can see here, http://www.yfull.com/tree/R1a/, one need to test for much younger subclades to find the age of relationship with other groups.

    It is not always difficult to ascertain the Ydna flow, even if the Bheel have the same Haplogroup, if both are tested, it will tell how far back they had a common ancestor, very very old relationship may tell that it is older than the Jatt identity, so meaningless to Jatt History, but the recent relation will show NPE[non parental event], adoption etc. Generally speaking R1a1a in Bheels and other tribals is an outside influence.

    For the origin of a Haplogroup or its sunclade, the diversity at a location is considered more important than its quantity, so that again is not really a big problem at all. And if ancient Dna is available then the job becomes even easier.

    History does not matter much as it is scanty at best and mostly biased thus unreliable and useless, it is more like garbage in and garbage out thingy. But if you can find the Tomb of a king and relate his Dna to someone alive today, then that certainly will make difference to that person's history.

    My information is not from a study but came from the people who have tested with FTDNA and 23andMe. Actually it looks more like 35% L-M357, 40% R1a1a, 10% R2, 5% J2, 2% G, 1% Q, 1% J1 and 6% other etc. R1a1a seem to be of IndoAryan[Scythian] origin, L-357 seem to belong to Iranic Tribes. Ancient samples and largescale testing will put an end to the speculation, I guess.
    Very good! , getting it in bits, slowly but steadily so what I understand by your reply that that an overwhelming percentage of jatts 85 % (35% L-m357 and 40% R1a1a, 10% R2) seems origin from north-west india, central asia or across, that's a good data about Jatts, many clans are studied. Let us ignore other communities of India for a while, I belive muslims jatts of pakistan will be no different from this data but is there any study done on hindu jats of haryana/rajasthan/west UP as per your knowledge?....
    Last edited by prashantacmet; May 25th, 2015 at 06:35 PM.
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  25. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    Very good! , getting it in bits, slowly but steadily so what I understand by your reply that that an overwhelming percentage of jatts 85 % (35% L-m357 and 40% R1a1a, 10% R2) seems origin from north-west india, central asia or across, that's a good data about Jatts, many clans are studied. Let us ignore other communities of India for a while, I belive muslims jatts of pakistan will be no different from this data but is there any study done on hindu jats of haryana/rajasthan/west UP as per your knowledge?....
    Yes, though it is difficult to pinpoint the exact location for now, the L-M357 seem to be more from north west Iran, while R1a1a seem to be more from Eurasian Steppe. R2 could be from Central Asia. Yes muslim Jatts have the same lineages, it is a tragedy that Jatt community is now divided into 3 religions, which greatly diminishes its influence.

    Besides the Ydna and mtDna lineages, there is such a thing as Autosomal Dna, which makes up most of the human dna and is more like a soup of dna from many ancestors, but like the Ydna it does not stay in the people for too long unless they are inbreeding and by constant out breeding, it disappears in 6 to 8 generations.

    Yes there is one from UP and may be 3 to 5 from Hariyana and 2 to 3 from Rajasthan, I don't have excess to the data for now, so can't give you the details. Muslim Jatts have the lowest Euro component, next come Punjabi Jatts, whereas the Hariyana, Rajasthan and UP Jatts have the highest Euro component of all the communities in the country. But if they keep on marrying women with low Euro component, this higher Euro component will soon disappear. Some information below.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...1E&hl=en#gid=0

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...hl=en_US#gid=0

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WZzNBMEE#gid=1

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...WZzNBMEE#gid=0

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?pli=1#gid=0


    This is only a part of the total data out there.
    Last edited by paulgill; May 26th, 2015 at 04:57 AM.

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  27. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by harish24 View Post
    As per my personal knowledge, Jhanghu gotra originated in Rajasthan, later they started moving towards present Haryana Bhalout {old Rohtak}, Mauri in Bhiwani , and you will find Jhanghu in Daultabad near Gurgaon. Lal Chand Bhalothia{Jhanghu} Founder of DLF Ltd, was a famous jat figure. Jhanghu and Bhalothia are the same gotra as per my findings

    Thanks for the post.

    Minor correction is regarding Bhalauth - it is in Jhnjhunun district not far off from Narnaul . Bhalauth Rohtak is not connected with this gotra at all.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  28. #75
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    Paul Gill wrote - "But if you can find the Tomb of a king and relate his Dna to someone alive today, then that certainly will make difference to that person's history."

    Problem with Jats is that we do not preserve any component of dead body. How can we now match the Dna of an ancient king and present person.
    Laxman Burdak

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  30. #76
    Delete......
    Last edited by paulgill; May 26th, 2015 at 01:38 PM.

  31. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Paul Gill wrote - "But if you can find the Tomb of a king and relate his Dna to someone alive today, then that certainly will make difference to that person's history."

    Problem with Jats is that we do not preserve any component of dead body. How can we now match the Dna of an ancient king and present person.
    You might find some among Kurgan, Yamuna, Tarim etc mummies.

    http://johnhawks.net/weblog/hawks/tr...gans-2012.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan

    http://stephenbodio.blogspot.ca/2006...s-balbals.html

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberian_Ice_Maiden

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarim_mummies

    http://blog.world-mysteries.com/stra...tarim-mummies/

    There is such evidence present out there, including inconfirm your claim to India.

    Once Jatts connection to such evidence is confirmed then Jatts claim to these people is also confirmed. Connection to Scythians will confirm Jatts claim to Indo-Scythian History, connection to Dahae will confirm Jatts claim to Dahae Parthian History, etc.

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  33. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Paul Gill wrote - "But if you can find the Tomb of a king and relate his Dna to someone alive today, then that certainly will make difference to that person's history."

    Problem with Jats is that we do not preserve any component of dead body. How can we now match the Dna of an ancient king and present person.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3118723/

    Figure 1


    Multi Dimensional Scaling plot showing the relationship between Kerala Ezhava population with other Indian and European populations.


    Licchavis who claim to be the descendants of the Shakya clan of Lord Buddha sound much close to Ezhavas of Kerala who supposedly are the descendants of Buddhist missionaries King Ashoka sent to south.

    If these two groups can be proven to be related to each other genetically, and they are also related to Jatts as they appear to be, then again this circle from Scythians to Licchavis to Ezhavas to Jatts is complete, the history gets tied in with genetics, it be an unshakable evidence.

    Dna test in this case seem to be too weak though, it is based on 8 STRs only, a very weak evidence, if any, but it relates Ezhavas to R1a1a Jatts, but I have also seen somewhere a Greek connection to these people too, Ydna E connection and if these both are found to be true then the circle is again complete back to Punjab and Scythians.
    Last edited by paulgill; May 26th, 2015 at 02:59 PM.

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  35. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend, Could you share more information on Jangu/Janghu Jat villages in and around Falna Region !
    Could it have any connection to Jhang Maghiana?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhang

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulgill View Post
    Could it have any connection to Jhang Maghiana?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jhang
    On the likely similarity of name does not carry one anywhere near the solution as we have not found any connection between the two.Kindly share some concrete and convincing source of information, if any with you, so that people desirous to know their origin could be satisfied.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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