Originally Posted by ravichaudhary
It doesn't matter whether they crossed slowly or in a haste .......
Important thing is they did cross Hindukush and introduced Agriculture and IndoEuropean Language here and this fact negates very foundation of OIT theory.
Moar (August 26th, 2012), puneetlakra (August 25th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 25th, 2012)
An important foundation from the article quoted, is that the people travelled ( the long distances) by chariots.
En route they would have to cross many inhospitable, difficult, mountain ranges.
My single query is how they crossed these mountain ranges, with these chariots? That is all
Nothing to do with AIT, OIT, UFOs etc
Just chariots
Warm regards
Ravi Chaudhary
Last edited by ravichaudhary; August 25th, 2012 at 10:08 PM.
Dear Hardeep,
Are you trying to say that we share this “haplotype” more tightly with Turks than any other community living in same geographical location? First of all, is this haplotype well conserved in all the Jats living in different states of India?
Secondly, did this haplotype matches with other communities living in same village say Khati, Brahmin, Nai, Chamar, etc. to some extent or not at all? If yes, to which extent with other communities and Turks?
No,
On the contrary Q D Atkinson who did research denies use of Chariots by stressing on agriculture as means of expansion like Colin Renfrew
Most important point which you missed is the spread of IndoEuropean language from west (Anatolia or pontic steepes) to east and arrival of a people (whom they think Arya Scythian etc )and we know as Jats.
How they moved ??and when???.... scholars differ .......Colin Renfrew and Q D Atkinson believe they moved very slowly(without Chariots) and much earlier but Maria Gimbutas thought they moved fast and much later ,......however both Colin Renfrew and D Q atkinson on one hand Maria Gimbutas on other hand, are right in their supposition (with minor modification) ,as per my research.
On a general level, we need not speculate much on the methodology of movement as it was explained and narrated by their descendants(our elders) to us....as How our Dada moved in his Bullock cart(Gaaddis.... long and Rardhus... shorter ) along with his brothers and crossed hundereds of kilometers to settle a new village on finding a suitable agricultural lands.Elders of some clans moved from Garh Ghajani to Western UP in a single movement if you consider this distance travelled it will be equal to crossing an entire central asian nation in a single movement .And such type of further movements are going on for many thousand years ...........
Last edited by narenderkharb; August 26th, 2012 at 01:18 PM.
puneetlakra (August 26th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 27th, 2012)
Raviji's question of crossing Hindukush mountains seems very important. Hindu Kūh and Kūh-e Hind are usually applied to the entire range separating the basins of the Kabul and Helmand rivers from that of the Amu River (ancient Oxus) or more specifically to that part of the range, northwest of the Afghan capital Kabul. Sanskrit documents refer to the Hindu Kush as Pāriyātra Parvata (पारियात्र पर्वत). There has been a military presence in the mountains since the time of Darius the Great. Alexander the Great explored the Afghan areas between Bactria and the Indus River after his conquest of the Achaemenid Empire in 330 BC. It became part of the Seleucid Empire before falling to the Indian Maurya Empire around 305 BC.
Alexander took these away from the Persians and established settlements of his own, but Seleucus Nicator gave them to Sandrocottus (Chandragupta), upon terms of intermarriage and of receiving in exchange 500 elephants.( —Strabo, 64 BC–24 AD) Indo-Scythians expelled the Indo-Greeks by the mid 1st century BC, but lost the area to the Kushan Empire about 100 years later.[Houtsma, Martijn Theodoor (1987)]
Before the Christian era, and afterwards, there was an intimate connection between the Kabul Valley and India. All the passes of the Hindu-Kush descend into that valley; and travellers from the north as soon as they crossed the watershed, found a civilization and religion, the same as that much prevailed in India. The great range was the boundary in those days and barrier that was at time impassable.
Now the thing is that you need not to carry the chariots with horse. If you know the technology to develop a chariot the carpenter can prepare it any where. So men and horse can cross it safely.
Laxman Burdak
narenderkharb (August 26th, 2012), op1955 (August 28th, 2012), puneetlakra (August 26th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 27th, 2012)
Explained it very well.Not only that I really doubt that passes were so impassable through out the year.
Last edited by narenderkharb; August 26th, 2012 at 05:19 PM.
Thanks, in large part to your dedicated efforts, I am now convinced that the Aryans( especially the Aryan jats) came from Turkey, and travelled the long distances by Chariots.
They brought not only the language, but also their chariot technology, which enabled them to conquer the Dravidians on the Indian sub- continent, and pushed them to the southern tip of the sub- continent.
Of course we must not forget, as you have so ably demonstrated, that the Mahabharat, was composed outside India.
Then too so was the Ramayan.
I came across this.
http://www.archatlas.org/Petrie/RoutesandPlains.php
Developing out of collaborative fieldwork in the Mamasani Region of Fars, this interpretative essay was compiled between January and July 2005, while Cameron Petrie was the Katherine and Leonard Woolley Junior Research Fellow at Somerville College, Oxford, and developed as part of the ArchAtlas project to use satellite imagery and terrain modelling in studying patterns of ancient settlement and inter-regional contact.
As further proof, to add your already existing evidential resources, while attempting the see what routes the all conquering Aryans took from Turkey, through the inhospitable moutian ranges( see image below
-Aryans resting on route ,
“Developing out of collaborative fieldwork in the Mamasani Region of Fars, this interpretative essay was compiled between January and July 2005, while Cameron Petrie was the Katherine and Leonard Woolley Junior Research Fellow at Somerville College, Oxford, and developed as part of the ArchAtlas project to use satellite imagery and terrain modelling in studying patterns of ancient settlement and inter-regional contact.”
1) Some of the most powerful and influential states and empires that came into being in ancient West Asia originated in what is now southwest Iran – including the Persian Empires ruled by the Achaemenid (c.539-330 BC) and Sasanian Dynasties (c. AD 125-630) and the various Elamite polities that engaged in warfare, political intrigue and trade with Babylonia and Assyria during the Bronze and Iron Ages (c.2200-641 BC). Southwest Iran was also the heartland of the so-called "Proto-Elamite horizon", which saw the first appearance of urbanism and pictographic writing in Iran, the latter of which appears to have spread from the southwest into the furthest reaches of the Iranian plateau in the late 4th mill BC (c.3300-2900 BC) “”
This strong piece of evidence, pre dates the Invasion by the resourceful , chariot riding, Aryans.
As final clincher, ( and I must just be drawing your attention, to what you already know ), we come across the term “”RAM Hormuz,””
"21) The Ram Hormuz plain is probably best known for the excavations undertaken at Tal-i Ghazir by Donald McCown (Caldwell 1968; Whitcomb 1971). The site of Tal-i Ghazir is comprised of seven major mounds, which appear to range in date from the 5th millennium BC until the 16th century AD (Wright and Carter 2003: 76). Tepe Bormi is a major Middle Elamite site where inscribed bricks were recovered (Wright and Carter 2003: 79)"
I am now compelled to bow to your skillful research.
Here is irrefutable proof, that Ram Dasrathi too came from Turkey, and was on Route to India, pioneerig the road later travelled by Alexander the Great.
What does puzzle me, and you will undoubtedly already have addressed this, but if you would not mind to shed some light-
There is a reference to a “ Vimana” is the Ramayan, and Ram Dasrathi flew back in one to Ayodhya from Sri Lanka, after he successfully destroyed the evil empire of the maha -asura Ravana.
Did he bring this technology from Turkey, or was it developed later , in the subcontinent?
Warm regards
Ravi Chaudhary
Last edited by ravichaudhary; August 26th, 2012 at 08:00 PM. Reason: m
That was nice ........Now what is your take on this story of Colin Renfrew,,Q D Atkinson and Maria Gimbutas ?
Do you believe Aryans went out of India and Jats have nothing to do with Scythians.
Let us understand your views on this .
I have one suggestion:before coming to conclusion that the site of Ramayana and Mahabharata were somewhere else, first read geography chapters of Ramayana and Mahabharata. Research if the topography mentioned there matches with the new locations? I do not have much idea about topography of new location being suggested by Narendraji.
Laxman Burdak
Laxman ji you took Ravi ji's post otherwise ,...It was more a sarcasm ....I didn't write Mahabharata was composed outside ...I wrote it was fought outside and present narrration is just a one side version of that story ,I didn't write anything about Ramayana as it would derail this thread though I along with many other scholars do have reservation about location of Ravana'capital ,Ayodhaya, Saryu river etc.Neither I wrote that Aryas took their baggage in one chariot and that started in Anatolia and only stopped in Indus Valley ,Neither they immidiately found some dravidians whom they defeated ,It is the tactic of OIT proponents who first bring you to a wrong AIT theory and than counter what obviously is counterable ...........
I don't want Ravi ji to run out of this discussion as It is very confusing for our young Jats to know who they were because of a division among our historians on the lines of Aryan migration or out of India theory .Let this discussion settle this issue once and for all atleast among ourselves .
op1955 (August 28th, 2012), puneetlakra (August 28th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 27th, 2012)
Mahabharata describes geography and provinces of Bharatavarsha
We have wikified on Jatland [Wiki]Bhisma Parva, Mahabharata/Book VI Chapter 10[/Wiki] which describes geography and provinces of Bharatavarsha. This is specifically as per discussion with Narendraji Kharb.
"Dhritarashtra said,--'Tell me truly (O Sanjaya) of this Varsha that is called after Bharata, where this senseless force hath been collected, in respect of which this my son Duryodhana hath been so very covetous, which the sons of Pandu also are desirous of obtaining, and in which my mind too sinketh. O, tell me this, for thou art, in my judgment endued with intelligence.
"Sanjaya said,--'Listen to me, O king The sons of Pandu are not covetous about this country. On the other hand, it is Duryodhana that is covetous, and Sakuni the son of Suvala, as also many other Kshatriyas who are rulers of the provinces, who being covetous of this country are not able to bear one another. I will now will thee, O thou of Bharata's race, of the tract of land known by Bharata's name. This land is the beloved one of Indra, and, O thou of Bharata's race, this land, O monarch, that is called after Bharata, is also the beloved land of Manu, the son of Vivaswat, of Prithu, of Vainya, of the high-souled Ikshwaku, of Yayati, of Amvarisha, of Mandhatri, of Nahusha, of Muchukunda, of Sivi the son of Usinara, of Rishava, of Ila, of king Nriga, of Kusika, O invincible one, of the high-souled Gadhi, of Somaka, O irrepressible one, and of Dilipa, and also, O monarch, of many other mighty Kshatriyas. I will now, O chastiser of foes, describe to thee that country as I have heard of it.
The Mountains
Listen to me, O king, as I speak of what thou hast asked me. Mahendra, Malaya, Sahya, Shuktimana, Rikshavan, Vindhya, and Pariyatra, (Hindukush) --these seven are the Kala-mountains 1 (of Bharatvarsha). Besides these, O king, there are thousands of mountains that are unknown, of hard make, huge, and having excellent valleys. Besides these there are many other smaller mountains inhabited by barbarous tribes. Aryans and Mlecchas,
The Rivers
O Kauravya, and many races, O lord, mixed of the two elements, drink the waters of the following rivers, viz., magnificent Ganga, Sindhu, and Saraswati; of Godavari, and Narmada, and the large river called Yamuna; of Dhrishadwati, and Vipapa, and Vipasa and Sthulavaluka; of the river Vetravati, and that other one called Krishna-vena; of Iravati, and Vitasta, and Payosyini, and Devika; of Vedasmrita and Vedavati, and Tridiva, and Ikshumalavi; 2 of Karishini, and Chitravaha, and the river called Chitrasena; of Gomati, and Dhutapada and the large river called Gandaki 3, of Kausiki, and Nischitra, and Kirtya, and Nichita, and Lohatarini; 4 of Rashasi and Satakumbha, and also Sarayu; of Charmanwati, and Vetravati, 5 and Hastisoma, and Disa; of the river called Saravati, and Venna, and Bhimarathi; of Kaveri, and Chuluka, and Vina, and Satavala; of Nivara, and Mahila, and Suprayoga, O king; of Pavitra,
and Kundala, and Rajani, and Puramalini; of Purvabhirama, and Vira, and Bhima, and Oghavati; of Palasini, and Papahara, and Mahendra, and Patalavati, of Karishini, and Asikni, and the large river Kusachira: of Makari, and Pravara, and Mena, and Hema, and Dhritavati; of Puravati, and Anushna, and Saivya, and Kapi, O Bharata; of Sadanira, and Adhrishya, and the mighty stream Kusadhara; of Sadakanta, and Siva, and Viravati; of Vatsu, and Suvastu, and Kampana with Hiranwati; of Vara, and the mighty river Panchami, of Rathachitra, and Jyotiratha, and Viswamitra, and Kapinjala; of Upendra, and Vahula, and Kuchira, and Madhuvahini: of Vinadi, and Pinjala, and Vena, and the great river Pungavena; of Vidisa and Krishna-vena, and Tamra, and Kapila, of Salu, and Suvama, the Vedaswa, and the mighty river Harisrava; of Sighra, and Pischala, and the river Bharadwaji, of the river Kausiki, and Sona, and Chandrama; of Durgamantrasila, and Brahma-vodhya, and Vrihadvati; of Yaksha, and Rohi, and Yamvunadi; of Sunasa and Tamasa, and Dasi, and Vasa, and Varuna, and Asi; of Nila, and Dhrimati, and the mighty river Parnasa; of Pomasi, and Vrishabha, and Brahma-meddhya, and Vrihaddhani. These and many other large rivers, O king, such as Sadonirmaya and Krishna, and Mandaga, and Mandavahini; and Mahagouri, and Durga, O Bharata; and Chitropala. Chitraratha, and Manjula, and Vahini; and Mandakini, and Vaitarani, and Kosa, and Mahanadi; and Suktimati, and Ananga, and Pushpaveni, and Utpalavati; and Lohitya, Karatoya, and Vrishasabhya; and Kumari, and Rishikullya and Marisha, and Saraswati; and Mandakini, and Supunya, Sarvasanga, O Bharata, are all mothers of the universe and productive of great merit. Besides these, there are rivers, by hundreds and thousands, that are not known (by names), I have now recounted to thee, O king, all the rivers as far as I remember.
The Provinces
"After this, listen to the names of the provinces as I mention them. (Shloka 37-68) They are the Kuru-Panchalas, the Salwas, the Madreyas, the Jangalas, the Surasena, the Kalingas, the Bodhas, the Malas, the Matsyas, the Sauvalyas, the Kuntalas, the Kasi-kosalas, the Chedis, the Karushas, the Bhojas, the Sindhus, the Pulindakas, the Uttamas, the Dasarnas, the Mekalas, the Utkalas; the Panchalas, the Kausijas, the Nikarprishtha]s, Dhurandharas; the Sodhas, the Madra, Bhujingas, the Kasis, and the further-Kasis; the Jatharas, the Kukuras, O Bharata; the Kuntis, the Avantis, and the further-Kuntis; the Gomantas, the Mandakas, the Shandas, the Vidarbhas, the Anupavasikas; the Asmakas, the Pansurashtras, the Goparashtras, and the Karityas; the Adhirjayas, the Kuladyas, the Mallarashtras, the Keralas, the Varatrasyas, the Apavahas, the Chakras, the Vakratapas, the Sakas; the Videhas, the Magadhas, the Suhashas, the Malayas, the Vijayas, the Angas, the Vangas, the Kalingas, the Yakril, Lomans; the Mallas, the Sudeshnas, the Prahutas, the Mahekas, the Sasikas; the Valhikas, the Vatadhanas, the Abhiras, the Kalatoyakas; the Aparandhas, the Parandhas, the Pahnabhas, the Charmamandalas; the Atvis, Shabaras, Maru, Bhaumas, Mairihas, the Mahabhutas, O sire; the Upavrittas, the Anupavrittas, the Surashatras, Kekayas; the Kutas, the Maheyas, the Kakshas, the Samudranishkutas; the Andhras, and, O king, many hilly tribes, and many tribes residing on lands laying at the foot of the hills, and the Angamalajas, and the Manavarjakas (Maan)+(Bardak); the Pravisheyas, and the Bhargavas, O king; the Pundras, the Bhargas, the Kiratas, the Sudeshnas, and the Yamunas, the Sakas, the Nishadhas, the Anartas, the Nairitas, the Dugulas, the Pratimatsyas, the Kuntalas, and the Kusalas; the Tiragrahas, the Rajikas, the Kanyakagunas, the Tilabharas, the Samiras, the Madhumattas, the Sukandakas; the Kasmiras, the Sindhusauviras, the Gandharvas, and the Darsakas; the Abhisaras, the Utulas, the Saivalas, and the Valhikas; the Darvis, the Vanavadarvas, the Vatagas, the Amarathas, and the Uragas; the Vahuvadhas, the Kauravyas, the Sudamanas, the Sumalikas; the Vadhras, the Karishakas, the Kalindas, and the Upatyakas; the Vatayanas, the Romanas, and the Kusavindas; the Kacchas, the Gopalkacchas, the Kuruvarnakas; the Kiratas, the Varvasas, the Siddhas, the Vaidehas, and the Tamraliptas; the Aundras, the Paundras, the Saisikatas, and the Parvatiyas, O sire.
Other Kingdoms
"'There are other kingdoms, O bull of Bharata's race, in the south. They are the Dravidas, the Keralas, the Prachyas, the Mushikas, and the Vanavashikas; the Karanatakas, the Mahishakas, the Vikalpas, and also the Mushakas; the Jhillikas, the Kuntalas, the Saunridas, and the Nalakananas; the Kankutakas, the Cholas, and the Malavayakas; the Samangas, the Kanakas, the Kukkuras, and the Angara-Marishas; the Samangas, the Karakas, the Kukuras, the Angaras, the Marishas: the Dhwajinis, the Utsavas, the Sanketas, the Trigartas, and the Salwasena; the Vakas, the Kokarakas, the Pashtris, and the Lamavegavasas; the Vindhyachulakas, the Pulindas, and the Kalkalas; the Malavas, the Vallavas, the further-Vallavas, the Kulindas, the Kalavas, the Kuntaukas, and the Karatas; the Mrishakas, the Tanavalas, the Saniyas; the Alidas, the Pasivatas, the Tanayas, and the Sulanyas; the Rishikas, the Vidarbhas, the Kakas, the Tanganas, and the further-Tanganas. Among the tribes of the north are the Mlecchas, and the Kruras, O best of the Bharatas; the Yavanas, the Chinas, the Kambojas, the Darunas, and many Mleccha tribes; the Sukritvahas, the Kulatthas, the Hunas, and the Parasikas; the Ramanas, and the Dasha Malikas. These countries are, besides, the abodes of many Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra tribes. Then again there are the Sudra-abhiras, the Dardas, the Kasmiras, and the Pattis; the Khasiras; the Atreyas, the Bharadwajas, the Stanaposhikas, the Poshakas, the Kalingas, and diverse tribes of Kiratas; the Tomaras, the Hansamargas, and the Karamanjakas. These and other kingdoms are on the east and on the north. O lord, alluding to them briefly I have told thee all.
Last edited by lrburdak; August 27th, 2012 at 09:39 PM.
Laxman Burdak
dndeswal (August 27th, 2012), op1955 (August 28th, 2012), puneetlakra (August 28th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 27th, 2012)
Herodotus, the Greek, has also been termed as the Father of History ( Ithihass ka Baap).
He lived in the 5th century BC, interesting enough , where modern Turkey now is. This may also have relevance to Kharb Sahib’s lucid and clear post too.
Herodutus , in his acclaimed ‘ Histories’ refers to the Skutia or Scythian nation, which is the also topic of this thread.
Indians had no sense of history.
This is known by even all children( Har bacha ye chiz jaantha he). It is fact, carved in stone. We are told this by a every trained Historian. The matter is settled. There is no need to bring it up again.
We should be and are grateful to Shri Herodotus for his seminal book on history, and for the historians who followed him.
If it were not for these scholars par excellence we would continue to be in the dark about our past.
It is due to this good a stroke of fortune we are not today at sea.
One of the most valuable contributions by Herodutus, was to being to light the Nation of Skutia or Scythia.
i.e the nation of the people know as Skuts ( pronounced with a deep U, ) or Scyths.
Until he penned this history the rest of the world was in the dark about this valorous race.
This nation produced the Jats, one of whose Queens was Queen Tomyris ( Tomri of the Tomar Goth), who defeated ad beheaded King Darius circa 550 BCE.
It would appear, the clan Tomar, following the victory left their homeland of Skutia and went and settled in the area of the Desh ( modern Delhi, U.P).
Since there is no trace of Skutia today of the Tomars in Skutia. It stands only to logical reason that they all left for their modern homeland.
Without the Skuts the nation would disappear.
Warm regards
Ravi Chaudhary
P.S. It would appear that Herodotus was a Jat too, albeit a Aryan Greek Jat from Turkey
Last edited by ravichaudhary; August 28th, 2012 at 02:06 AM.
op1955 (August 28th, 2012)
We cannot ignore this valuable insight.
We have to take into account both the Ramayan and the Mahabharat
Here we have in the name" Ram Hormuz" given to a geographical region, on the route from Turkey to Hindustan, an important indication that Shri Ram left his foot print.
When and how he did this, I will ask other scholars to contribute.( MY amateur knowledge will not hold water).
Did he do this en route to Hindustan,, or did he go from Ayodhya to the Ram Hormuz Basin.
The great historian Herodutus does not mention the Mahabharat or the Ramayan. Would that not indicate these are fairy tales?
Warm Regards
Ravi Chaudhary
Ravi ji You are good at sarcasm agreed.
Now pls put your views ,What do you think Jats have anything to do with Scythians ?
What you believe OIT or otherwise ?
Ravi sahab!..instead of ridiculing other theories why don't you say your stand?.. in all your posts from the very beginning you just keep asking questions from others ..why don't you give this chance to others..what is your theory of origin of Jats..?
Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!
DrRajpalSingh (August 28th, 2012), swaich (August 28th, 2012)
My views are available on this site and the other History group I moderate. URL below.
There are plenty of posts by me.
Here we are discussing the etymology of Skutia
Have readers noted that "Skut" rhymes with : " JUT" PUnjabi Jats often refer to themselves as " JUTS" not " JAATS"
This should add another arrow to Narendraji's quiver..
Ravi Chaudhary
DrRajpalSingh (August 29th, 2012)
As per the discussion on IDF your views seems to favour a connection with Scythians' but here its seems bit different ,that's why I wanted a clarity from your side .
I don't think there is any need to drive Jut /Jat from Skut when they are clearly mentioned Scythian and Jetae/MessaJetae side by side.I was pressing for this debate because at least we must have a unified version of our history ,If you are not interested at this stage I won't press you further.
DrRajpalSingh (August 29th, 2012), prashantacmet (August 29th, 2012), ravinderjeet (September 1st, 2012)
Friends,
Would it not be fit to practise some sort of wait and see and patience to listen to the views for and against a subject being discussed so that the discussion is not aborted in a huff. Healthy discussion will definitely result in some tangible findings on the lost pages of history of the community to bridge the gaps.
Since Shri Ravi Chaudhry Ji and Shri Narender Kharbji seem to hold a bit of difference on the topic, this does not mean that the views of either of them have no meeting place in subsequent course of discussion. It is very interesting topic and it is hoped that it would continue to progress in the days to come to find some tangible solution of the problem being discussed.
Regards.
lrburdak (September 1st, 2012), ravinderjeet (September 1st, 2012)
जिन खोजा तिन पाईये गहरे पानी पैठ
Laxman Burdak
narenderkharb (September 1st, 2012), ravinderjeet (September 1st, 2012)
N. S. Gill writes:
The Greek epic poet Hesiod called the northern tribes hippemolgi 'mare milkers'. The Greek historian Herodotus refers to the European Scythians as Scythians and the eastern ones as Sacae. The name Scythians and Sacae applied to themselves was Skudat 'archer'. Later, the Scythians were sometimes called Getae. The Persians also called the Scythians, Sakai. Scythians, who attacked the kingdom of Urartu in Armenia, were called Ashguzai or Ishguzai by the Assyrians. The Scythians may have been the Biblical Ashkenaz.
Source : http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/a...9Scythians.htm
Last edited by Moar; September 23rd, 2012 at 07:59 PM.
ravinderjeet (September 24th, 2012)
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