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रेखा भाई तेरी या अंग्रेजी भी कसुती हे बोले कीमे हे मतलब कीमे लिखड़े. आपने देसी में इ आन दिया कर नु इतना बेर हामने पट्गा के मेट्रिक तू भी कर रहा स इब क्यों घना कायल हो रहा हेOriginally Posted by rekha
रेखा भाई तेरी या अंग्रेजी भी कसुती हे बोले कीमे हे मतलब कीमे लिखड़े. आपने देसी में इ आन दिया कर नु इतना बेर हामने पट्गा के मेट्रिक तू भी कर रहा स इब क्यों घना कायल हो रहा हे
जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।
दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे ।
anilsangwan (August 1st, 2012), malikdeepak1 (July 31st, 2012), ravinderjeet (July 31st, 2012), vijaykajla1 (November 9th, 2012), vikda (August 2nd, 2012)
हा हा हा हा ,चुटकला बण ग्या यु ते |
:rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |
anilsangwan (August 1st, 2012), malikdeepak1 (July 31st, 2012), Sure (July 31st, 2012), vijaykajla1 (November 9th, 2012)
boss to be honest-
i din't understand what u said---my bad-??????????????????
n sir g---i was told that views matter here not the language
bas mera khoon nahi badha
baki toh poori JL ka badh gaya
Ravinderjeet Singh ji,
Aap ke asahmat hone ke adhikar kee main puri kadar karta huon!
Vastusthiti yeh hai kee maine pichhle anek varson mein sankron conferences mein Jat itihas pe vivadasapad pahluon pe research papers likhkar tatha sambhasan ke madhyam se anek bharantion ko dur karane ki tuchh koshish ki hai. Main kah sakta huon kee itihas ke kshetra mein mujhe laqir ka phakir bilkul nahin mana jata!
Aap mere sodh patra aur books ish kathan kee sachai janane ke liya padh sakate hein.
Dhanyavaad.
bishanleo2001 (August 9th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 1st, 2012)
The relevant extract of Krishana Story [highlighting the myth of his marriage to numerous women], based on the two references given at the bottom of the post is reproduced from wikipedia link quoted above for critical scrutiny of the readers :
'Krishna had a total of 16,108 wives, out of which eight were his princely wives and 16,100 were rescued from Narakasura, who had forcibly kept them in his harem. After Krishna killed Narkasura he rescued these 16,100 women and freed them, but all of them returned to him saying that they have been raped by Narkasura repeatedly and now neither their family will accept them nor will any one marry them, thus remaining shelter less. Out of compassion Krishna decided to give them shelter in a new palace, but, so that people do not take it in a wrong way, and also to give them a respectful place in the society he decided to marry all of them. Krishna did get married to all of them but never had sexual relations with any. [65][66]
References:
lrburdak (July 31st, 2012)
It is exciting to see the enthusiastic participation by new and old members, in the history section.
Equally impressive is the exploration of fresh avenues.
Without seeming to dampen the enthusiasm, I would suggest that members reflect a bit upon what they write and the views they espouse.
This is a history section.
Mythology also always contains a kernel of history.
Readers must try and coach themselves to try and distinguish between the two, and separate the wheat from the chaff.
From the above posts certain queries come to mind,
Was Krishna a Historical person?
He is supposed to have the head of the Andhak- Vrishni republic, and he is supposed to have played a leading role in the Mahabharat epic and war.
.
If so, how and when did he transform into a God, and an avatar of Vishnu?
What is the significance of his war with Narak- Asura and the tale of 16,000 maidens/ wives?
The term Asura BTW became on epithet in later orthodox Hindu thought, but in the Vedic era and literature, an Asura is actually a divine being on par with the Devas, In Zoroastrian thought it is the Devas who are reviled.
A good starting point may be to distinguish between the historical and the mythological!
Ravi Chaudhary
P.S. There also appears to be some clues to a Central Asian link of Arjun.
See what Prof . Buddha Prakash has to say
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/981
DrRajpalSingh (August 1st, 2012), lrburdak (August 5th, 2012), Moar (August 1st, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 1st, 2012), swaich (August 2nd, 2012), vijaykajla1 (November 9th, 2012)
Raviji has produced a very learned source of information on Arjuna. His post is reproduced with thanks to him and with due acknowledgement for the readers of the JatLand.com to ponder over and carry the debate further.
Buddhaprakash was professor of History and Ancient history at
Kurukshetra University, India. He wrote a number of books on the
ancient history of India.
Here are some of his views on Arjun of the Mahabharat, and he
suggests that Arjuna was a Central Asian Hero to whom a number of
Central Asian ruling dynasties traced their ancestry. He suggests
that the Pnadavas of the Mahabhrata epic had central Asian origin,
and demonstrates a link to the Kusanas, the Sakas, the Sarmatians,
and the Alans.
Ravi
Arjuna, Rsika and Yue-che.
Source: Buddhaprakash, Political and Social movements in Ancient
Punjab, Motilal Banarsidas, and New Delhi (1964)
The word 'arjuna' has an unmistakable resemblance with the Saka
word 'erzuna', meaning a `leader' or `chief'. This word 'erjuna'
or 'erjhuna' can be identified with the word alysanai, eysdnai i.e.
alzanai, ezanai, which is used in the old Saka language in the Khotan
country for rendering the Sanskrit word 'kumara'. Saka languages use
both 'R' and 'L'.
{Note: Kumara is another name for Kartikeya, the son of Shivaji, the
general of the republican people, the Ganas, and his mount is the
Peacock. Shiva and Kartikeya are also prime deities of the Jats. It
is interesting that in that early period in what is now the area
between the rivers Oxus, and Jaxartes, North West Afghanistan, we
find Shiva worship. - Ravi}.
Therefore, Saka 'alysnai' presupposes an older 'arzana,' '
arzanaka', while the later form' eysanai' shows that the initial
vowel tended towards an 'e'. The word 'erjhuna' is used in the sense
of `prince' in the Takht-i-Bahi inscription of the year 103.
According to Konow, 'kapa' stands for the Kusana ruler Kuzula
Kadphises and 'erjhuna kapasya' means `of the prince Kadhpises' in
this inscription.[40]. The word 'erjuna' or 'erzuna' is derived
from 'arzi'. Analogous to it are the Saka words 'aljsa',
meaning `silvery', and 'aljsata' meaning `silver' that are akin to
the Avestan word 'erezata' (silver ), the Sanskrit word rajata (
silver ) and the Persian word 'arziz' (tin).[41] All these words have
the original sense of whiteness and brightness, that are also
connoted by the word 'arjuna' in Sanskrit. It is highly significant
that Arjuna, the hero of the Mahabharata, is said to have borne this
name, because he was `white* and `pure' in action [42]. All over the
Eurasian. Steppes the nobles were regarded as `white' and the
commoners were considered `black'. Hence the word for white colour
was employed to denote the idea of leadership. This is why 'erzuna'
was used in the sense of a `leader' in Saka languages.
The word 'arjuna' occurs in Vedic literature also. [Rgveda I, 112,
23; IV, 26, 1; VIII, I, 11; Yajurveda X, 21; Satapatha Brahmana II,
1, 2-1 I; V, 4, 3, 7). There it denotes `white' and `white leprosy'
and is also an epithet of Indra. But it does not denote a tribe or a
human hero. On the other hand, we come across the name of a northern
tribe 'Arjunaka' or 'Arjunayana' or 'Prarjuna' in the Arthashatra of
Kautilya and the Allahabad pillar inscription of Samudragupta, as
seen above. This tribe seems to be connected with the name 'arjuna'.
The use of this word in the sense of a tribe or a human hero is
foreign to Vedic literature. But in Central Asia, among the states
and principalities, which were founded by the Sakas, it invariably
denoted an eponymous hero.
Vedic and Saka both branched from the same parent `Indo- European
language. Hence many words were common to both. But whereas 'Arjuna'
in Vedic lost its pristine sense and was only used as an adjective,
signifying `whiteness', in Saka it meant a tribe and a human hero and
later on this sense was imparted to this word in India as a result
of the impact of the Sakas. (Buddha Prakash Studies in Indian History
and Civilization, pp. 248- 249.)
Sten Konow has shown that the variants of 'arzi', underlying the
word 'erzuna' are 'arsi-asii', which become 'rsi-isi' in Sanskrit
and 'asi-asi-isi' in Prakrit [43]. In the Mahabharata the Risika are
a people of the northern regions, living beyond the land of the
Kambojas. who inhabited the Badakshan region, and their king, who
also bears this name, is mentioned with 'Chandra' (moon)
and 'Diti'[44]. According to Charpentier, the word "Yue-che"
means "the moon people" in Chinese [45].
[Contd next page/post]
ravinderjeet (August 1st, 2012)
[Contd. Ravi Chaudhry's post from previous page/post]
It is noteworthy that Kaniska, the greatest ruler of the Yue-che,
bore the titles 'Chen-to' (tsien-da) and 'chan-t'an' (tsian-dan), as
we gather from the Chinese translation of the 'Sutralankara'. These
titles are derived from the Sanskrit word for moon chandra (chanda).
Thus it is clear that the 'Yue-che' had a regular association with
the `moon'. It may be noted that Arjuna of the Mahabharata also
belonged to a family, which is traditionally connected with the moon
(chandravamsa). This association may be based on the fact that the
moon is marked by whiteness and brightness, which the word 'arzi-arsi-
asi' connotes. Thus Arjuna linguistically corresponds to rsika or Yue-
che and semantically agrees with it as well, for both arjuna and arsi
mean `white' in Sanskrit and Saka respectively. [47]. The Rsika — Yue-
che were a people of Saka race and Kadphises and Kaniska considered
themselves as the kinsmen of 'Chastana', the son of 'Ysamotika', one
of the Saka satraps of Saurastra and Malwa. [48]. In this way, it is
clear that Arjuna is the hero and symbol of a tribe of the Saka
stock, which came to be known as Arjunayana or Prarjuna after him.
Footnotes:
40. Sten Konow Kharosthi Inscriptions (Corpus Inscriptionum
Indiacarum Vol. II) p. 65,61 ' mira boyanasya erjhuna kapasya puyae
madu pidu puyae.
41. Sten Konow, Saka Studies, P115, Kharosthi Inscriptions,
Introduction p. 61.
42. Mahabharata, :Viratparvan IV, 39, 18.
43. Kasika on Panini Sutra IV, 2, 132.
Ramayana, (Kiskindhakanda, 41.
Nasik Cave inscription of Gautanriputra Satakarni (R. G. Bhandarkar,
Collected Works Vol. i p. 231).
44. Mahabharata, 67, 31, 33.
.
45. Jarl Charpentier, "Die Ethnographische Stellung der
Tocharer' Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenlandisechen
Gesselschaft ' Gesellschaft (1917) pp. 347-388. Paul
Pelliot rejects the equation R si- Yue-che with the remark, "Les
Rsika du Mahabharata resulteraient d'une etymologie de Pandit pour
Arsi" (`Tokha-rien et Koutcheen', Journal Asiatique (1934) p. 27),
but he does not appear to have attached due importance to Indian
traditions, recorded in the
Mahabharata, and their equivalence and correspondence in those of
Central Asia.
46. Sylvain Levi, `Kaniska et Satavahana', Journal Asiatique
47. A.J Van Windekens, 'Lexique Etymologie des dialectes
tolkhariens' pp 15-27.
48. The inclusion of the statue of Chastana in the ancestral
gallery (devakula) of the Kusana kings, found at Mat near Mathura,
shows that the Yue-che (Rsikas) considered the Sakas as their kith
and kin (J. Ph. Vogel ' Explorations at Mathura, Archaeological
Survey of India (1971-12). 126). It should also be noted that in the
same ancestral gallery a head wears a high Scythian cap with the tip
lilted forward; which is reminiscent of Saka Tigrakhauda (J. Ph.
Vogel, `La Sculpture de Mathura', Ars Asiatica (1930) p. i. IV-a-b).
The costumes and armaments of the Indian Sakas and Kusanas resembled
those found in the graves of the Sarmatians. They use of the long
sword in place of the short 'akinakes', among them bow and arrow were
not as important us in former limes and the lance and heavy scale
armour or ring armour came into vogue. (L. Bachhofer, `On the Greeks
and Sakas in India' Journal of the American Oriental Society (1941)
pp. 247-249) R. Ghirshman, Begram p. X).
49. Paul Pelliot 'Tokharien et Koutcheen ' Journal Asiatique
(1934) pp 88 "
Thanks and regards
ravinderjeet (August 1st, 2012)
Alexander Cunningham in Archaeological Survey of India Volume II, in report for 1863-64 while writing on ETHNOLOGY of Punjab, pp6-81 discusses Indo Scythians in pp 43 to 81. He has used extensive sources for identifying the ethnology of the Su, or Sagaruka, Medi, or Meda; Zanthil,Iatii, Jata; Yuchi, or Tochari; little Yuchi, or Kator, Ephhalites, or White Huns which makes an interesting addition for our search of the lost pedigree of various Jat clans.
In addition, he has devoted earlier pages to the study of the population of Punjab and then proceeds to discuss Takkas, Megs, or Mekei and other tribes. The he goes on discuss Janjuhas and Awans, and Bhattis under the heading of Aryas.
Those who are taking part in this debate on Indo Scythians the book can provide enough food for thought, I am sure.
Thanks
lrburdak (August 6th, 2012)
See what [Wiki]Hukum Singh Panwar[/Wiki] (Pauria) says on this topic. Kindly go to link -
[Wiki]The Jats:Their Origin, Antiquity and Migrations/The identification of the Jats[/Wiki] and read page 324 on Jatland Wiki. I reproduce here for readers:
"Arjuna, the Pandava hero in the Mahabharata war, is addressed by Krishna, his charioteer friend, as Partha. Prithudaka (modern Pehowa) in the Kurukshetra region was, according to O.P. Bharadvaja (1986: 197f), the original home of Prithus or Parthas. The ancient Parthia must have owed its name to the Parthian emigrants from the eastern part of Sapta Sindhu. "
Laxman Burdak
DrRajpalSingh (August 6th, 2012)
This surmise, if not contradicted on the basis of newer sources, definitely indicates in the right direction that the roots of the Pandavas lay somewhere outside India!
narenderkharb (August 6th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 6th, 2012)
I have many times requested Laxman ji please don't waste your precious time on matching Mahabharata geography with Indian Geography as Mahabharata War was never fought on Indian soils ........There were so many evidences ....what I told my friends Pandavas in fact were the looosers in that war and had to leave their lands ...Mahabharata story as we read today is mere one sided version (pandava's )of the true story with many later interpolations .......other version does exist in central asian history that I will be giving in my research book.
However since many later interpolations were done when the defeated party has reached Indian soils (and even that period too is very ancient )we can find some ancient geographical names of ancient India mentioned in Mahabharata .However places like Kurukshtra were not Indian but Central Asian.
Last edited by narenderkharb; August 6th, 2012 at 09:40 AM.
DrRajpalSingh (August 6th, 2012), lrburdak (August 6th, 2012), prashantacmet (August 6th, 2012), raka (August 7th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 6th, 2012), vijaykajla1 (November 9th, 2012)
Is it!!!!!!!!!
नरेंदर जी आपका दावा हैरान करने के साथ साथ रुचिकर भी है ! अब तो आपकी वो पुस्तक जितनी जल्दी मार्केट में आये उतना बढिया है ! मान लेते है कि महाभारत वर्तमान भारत कि धरती पर नहीं हुई और पांडव कहीं और मध्य एशिया से पराजित हो कर आये थे , तो क्या , वो जाट ही थे ?
श्री कृशन ने जो संघ यानी कि खाप बनाया था क्या वो मध्य एशिया में भी पाया जाता है ? कुछ अवशेष हैं इस खाप के वहाँ ?
"All I am trying to do is bridge the gap between Jats and Rest of World"
As I shall imagine, so shall I become.
anilphogat (August 7th, 2012), DrRajpalSingh (August 6th, 2012), lrburdak (August 6th, 2012), raka (August 7th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 6th, 2012), rekhasmriti (August 6th, 2012), Sure (August 6th, 2012), vijaykajla1 (November 9th, 2012)
Narendra ji I am eagerly waiting for your book. Till your book comes we are trying facts about Mahabharata. There seems no harm in trying all angles to reach a truth. Jat is considered to be God and nobody has so far aquired true knowledge about God.
We have compiled a list at http://www.jatland.com/home/Ancient_Jat_clans
It may be of some use.
In Physics we define an event by four dimensional coordinates. (x,y,z,t)
Mahabharata defines Geography and if we can find time scale attached with some event we can find the true value of an event at that particular moment. That is nothing but history. So you may find a clan at a particular time at particular space but with change of time its geographical location may change. Mahabharata was spread over a vast area and not only confined to present India.
Let us keep our journey going towards truth.
Laxman Burdak
DrRajpalSingh (August 6th, 2012), op1955 (August 7th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 7th, 2012)
And Burdakji's post taken together:Alexander Cunningham, considers Pandavas and Pauravss as same people. He, while writing about the Ethnology of the Punjab in his Archaeological Survey Report says on the issue of the immigration of people in Punjab during the period from the close of the great war [Mahabharata] to the invasion of Alexander as under :
''...the only clue which we have to guide us in discovering the changes that may have taken place in the Punjab, consists of an imperfect comparison between the names of tribes and districts in the heroic ages just described and those which we find in the historians of Alexander. But this comparison, in spite of the very few names that have been handed down to us, at once reveals the fact that a large and successful immigration of Pauravas must have taken place into the very heart of the Punjab. Thus between the Hydaspes and the Akesines Alexander encountered a king, whom the Greeks called Porus, and in the next Doab he found another Porus, the nephew of the former. That this was not the real name of these kings, but simply that of their tribe, the Paurarvas, or descendants of Puru, was first pointed out by Professor Lasen, who further quoted the authority of Ptolemy to show that in his time the country on the upper Hydaspes was in the possession of the Pandavas the most powerful branch of the family of Puru........."
If Cunninghams above quoted version supported by Professor Lasen, who further quoted the authority of Ptolemy proves true on the basis of further tests then for sure Pandavas were Jats of Paurarva/Pawar gotra. A great challenge for the historians both ways to prove it or to disapprove it; they have to put in hard labour indeed!
Thanks
Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 6th, 2012 at 09:24 PM.
lrburdak (August 6th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 7th, 2012)
Yes, one group of historians holds the view expressed by narender kharab ji and not without reason.
Conversely others also hold to the ground with equally strong standing.
And no meeting point between the two so far.
op1955 (August 7th, 2012), ravinderjeet (August 7th, 2012), vikda (August 7th, 2012)
Pandav jat the.. toh pher kaurav bhi jat honge ...yah toh jatan ki mahabharat ban gi..history main bada blunder kar diya yo toh!
Last edited by anilphogat; August 7th, 2012 at 09:40 PM.
rekhasmriti (August 8th, 2012)
It is not good to say some one 'stupid' without any rhyme or reason especially to historian like Alexander Cunningham, the then Director General of India who has quoted references in support of his hypothesis !Pandav jat the.. toh pher kaurav bhi jat honge ...yah toh jatan ki mahabharat ban gi..history main bada blunder kar diya yo toh!
Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 7th, 2012 at 11:55 PM.
ravinderjeet (August 8th, 2012)
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