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Thread: Persians rendered the name (Scythians') as Sakā ! Persian S -> H, is a false notion !

  1. #1

    Persians rendered the name (Scythians') as Sakā ! Persian S -> H, is a false notion !

    Dear Friends,


    It is a globally known fact that the Persians called the " Scythians ", " Sakā " ( Sakai ) [ who were later known as " Śāka " in India ]; and almost all of the Scythologists and Iranologists throughout the globe agree with this established research-work.


    One reference, for the scholars in making : Scythians in the Ancient World ( http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/a...9Scythians.htm ) by N. S. Gill (N. S. Gill has a B. A. in Latin and an M. A. in linguistics at the University of Minnesota. She has TA'd classes in the Age of Pericles, technical terms, Classical culture and mythology.).


    And, how is it possible that the Persians were successfully able to spell " Sakā ", but failed to spell " Sindhu " ?!


    ----

    Sincerely !!

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  3. #2
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    If S is silent then Saka becomes Aka. [Wiki]Aka[/Wiki] itself is a Jat clan.
    Laxman Burdak

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  5. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    If S is silent then Saka becomes Aka. Aka itself is a Jat clan.

    Dear Respected Sir, the "S" was not silent !!


    The origin and meaning of the word "Hindu" has now become a subject of intense research and immense scrutiny !!


    -->> http://www.jatland.com/forums/showthread.php?34170-Meaning-of-the-word-Hindu-(-Black-Thief-Slave-)&p=323767&viewfull=1#post323767 <<--
    Last edited by Moar; November 3rd, 2012 at 09:39 AM.

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    Shindu = Hindu when S is silent
    Laxman Burdak

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  9. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by lrburdak View Post
    Shindu = Hindu when S is silent
    Dear Respected Sir, please note that the name of the region was "SINDHU" ( सिन्धु ) and not "Shindu" ( शिन्दु ) . It is a globally accepted FACT by the scholars throughout the globe, and that includes scholars from India as well.


    And,


    Dear Respected Sir, as far as the Persians are concerned, the "S" was definitely not silent !!


    ----


    "Some sources report that it was Alexander who first renamed the River Sindhu as the Indu, dropping the beginning “S”, thus making it easier for the Greeks to pronounce. This became known as the Indus. His Macedonian forces thereafter called the land east of the Indus as India, a name used especially during the British regime."
    (Source: SikhiWiki)
    Last edited by Moar; November 3rd, 2012 at 09:23 AM.

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  11. #6
    .
    It is true that "SINDHU" ( सिन्धु ) is a Sanskrit word. So far as word "Hindu" is concerned, the letter H becomes silent in many languages. For example, Spanish people pronounce the word as "Indu" (even though they spell as "Hindu"). The spelling of word (in Spanish) is "Hospital" but in pronunciation, H becomes silent. The same is case with French.


    The fact is that the BOTH the words "Hindu" and "India" have foreign origin. The word "Hindu" is neither a Sanskrit word nor is this word found in any of the native dialects and languages of India. There is no reference of the word "hindu" in the Ancient Vedic Scriptures.


    It is said that the Persians used to refer to the Indus river as Sindhu. However, the Persians could not pronounce the letter "S" correctly in their native tongue and mispronounced it as "H." Thus, for the ancient Persians, the word "Sindhu" became "Hindu." In fact, in pronunciation, the rural people of Persia (Iran) utter it as "Indu" (same as in the case of Spanish). The ancient Persian Cuneiform inscriptions and the Zend Avesta refer to the word "Hindu" as a geographic name rather than a religious name. When the Persian King Darious 1 extended his empire up to the borders of the Indian subcontinent in 517 BC, some people of the Indian subcontinent became part of his empire and army. Thus for a very long time the ancient Persians referred to Indian people as "Hindus". The ancient Greeks and Armenians followed the same pronunciation, and thus, gradually the name stuck.


    Moreover, the ancient Greeks also used to mispronounce the river Sindhu as Indos. When Alexander invaded India, the Macedonian army referred to the river as Indus and the land east of the river as India. The Greek writers who wrote about Alexander preferred to use the same name.


    For the Arabs, the land became Al-Hind. The Muslim rulers and travelers who came to India during the medieval periods referred the Indian subcontinent as "Hindustan" and the people who lived there as Hindus.


    Thus, if we go by the original definition of the word Hindu, any person living in the land beyond the river Indus is a Hindu, whatever religion he or she practices.

    .
    Last edited by dndeswal; November 3rd, 2012 at 11:13 AM.
    तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय

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  13. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    .
    It is true that "SINDHU" ( सिन्धु ) is a Sanskrit word. So far as word "Hindu" is concerned, the letter H becomes silent in many languages. For example, Spanish people pronounce the word as "Indu" (even though they spell as "Hindu"). The spelling of word (in Spanish) is "Hospital" but in pronunciation, H becomes silent. The same is case with French.


    The fact is that the BOTH the words "Hindu" and "India" have foreign origin. The word "Hindu" is neither a Sanskrit word nor is this word found in any of the native dialects and languages of India. There is no reference of the word "hindu" in the Ancient Vedic Scriptures.


    It is said that the Persians used to refer to the Indus river as Sindhu. However, the Persians could not pronounce the letter "S" correctly in their native tongue and mispronounced it as "H." Thus, for the ancient Persians, the word "Sindhu" became "Hindu." In fact, in pronunciation, the rural people of Persia (Iran) utter it as "Indu" (same as in the case of Spanish). The ancient Persian Cuneiform inscriptions and the Zend Avesta refer to the word "Hindu" as a geographic name rather than a religious name. When the Persian King Darious 1 extended his empire up to the borders of the Indian subcontinent in 517 BC, some people of the Indian subcontinent became part of his empire and army. Thus for a very long time the ancient Persians referred to Indian people as "Hindus". The ancient Greeks and Armenians followed the same pronunciation, and thus, gradually the name stuck.


    Moreover, the ancient Greeks also used to mispronounce the river Sindhu as Indos. When Alexander invaded India, the Macedonian army referred to the river as Indus and the land east of the river as India. The Greek writers who wrote about Alexander preferred to use the same name.


    For the Arabs, the land became Al-Hind. The Muslim rulers and travelers who came to India during the medieval periods referred the Indian subcontinent as "Hindustan" and the people who lived there as Hindus.


    Thus, if we go by the original definition of the word Hindu, any person living in the land beyond the river Indus is a Hindu, whatever religion he or she practices.

    .
    On the origin of words India and Hindu excellent research piece deserves all praise. Congratulations and Thanks Deswal Ji.

  14. #8

    Phonetic sound of letter (alphabet) "S" is confirmed ! Persian S -->> H, is a myth !

    Most scholars consider the writing system to be an independent invention because it has no obvious connections with other writing systems at the time, such as Elamite, Akkadian, Hurrian, and Hittite cuneiforms.[1] While Old Persian's basic strokes are similar to those found in cuneiform scripts, Old Persian texts were engraved on hard materials, so the engravers had to make cuts that imitated the forms easily made on clay tablets.[2] The signs are composed of horizontal, vertical, and angled wedges. There are four basic components and new signs are created by adding wedges to these basic components.[3] These four basic components are two parallel wedges without angle, three parallel wedges without angle, one wedge without angle and an angled wedge, and two angled wedges.[3] The script is written from left to right.[4]



    The script encodes three vowels, a, i, u, and twenty-two consonants, k, x, g, c, ē, j, t, θ, d, p, f, b, n, m, y, v, r, l, s, z, š, and h. Old Persian contains two sets of consonants: those whose shape depends on the following vowel and those whose shape is independent of the following vowel. The consonant symbols that depend on the following vowel act like the consonants in Devanagari's writing system. Vowel diacritics are added to these consonant symbols to change the inherent vowel or add length to the inherent vowel. However, the vowel symbols are usually still included so [di] would be written as [di] [i] even though [di] already implies the vowel.[5] For the consonants whose shape does not depend on the following vowels, the vowel signs must be used after the consonant symbol.[6]



    Compared to the Avestan alphabet Old Persian notably lacks voiced fricatives, but includes the sign ē (of uncertain pronunciation) and a sign for the non-native l. Notably, in common with the Brahmic abugidas, there appears to be no distinction between a consonant followed by an a and a consonant followed by nothing.




    References :


    (1) Windfuhr, G. L.: "Notes on the old Persian signs", page 1. Indo-Iranian Journal, 1970.

    (2) Kent, R. G.: "Old Persian: Grammar Texts Lexicon", page 9. American Oriental Society, 1950.

    (3) Windfuhr, G. L.: "Notes on the old Persian signs", page 2. Indo-Iranian Journal, 1970.

    (4) Daniels, Peter T.: "The World's Writing Systems", page 134. Oxford University Press, 1996.

    (5) Daniels, Peter T.: "The World's Writing Systems", page 136. Oxford University Press, 1996.

    (6) Daniels, Peter T.: "The World's Writing Systems", page 135. Oxford University Press, 1996.


    ----

    It is worth noticing that from an article on the old Persian writing, that was replaced by the Arabic script, it talks about the phonetic "S", which provides us reasons to believe that the Persians used to spell the phonetic "S". And, the current Persian script also has a letter (alphabet) for the phonetic sound of "S", as well.

    ----

    For more details over the subject, please visit : Old Persian cuneiform .

    ----

    Sincerely !!
    Last edited by Moar; November 5th, 2012 at 10:05 PM.

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  16. #9
    The S does not have to change to a H in all cases.

    The unchanging case of the S in Saka in one good example.

    There alos comon cases where the S and H are interchangeable;

    in 'sapth' to 'hapth'.

    Bothmean the number 7.

    Similarly the change of the S in Sindhu to H in Hindu is commmonlyknown and attested .

    There are no contrdictions here

    Ravi Chaudhary


    PS Good piece of data collection by you. keep it up

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  18. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Moar View Post
    Dear Friends,


    It is a globally known fact that the Persians called the " Scythians ", " Sakā " ( Sakai ) [ who were later known as " Śāka " in India ]; and almost all of the Scythologists and Iranologists throughout the globe agree with this established research-work.


    One reference, for the scholars in making : Scythians in the Ancient World ( http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/a...9Scythians.htm ) by N. S. Gill (N. S. Gill has a B. A. in Latin and an M. A. in linguistics at the University of Minnesota. She has TA'd classes in the Age of Pericles, technical terms, Classical culture and mythology.).


    And, how is it possible that the Persians were successfully able to spell " Sakā ", but failed to spell " Sindhu " ?!


    ----

    Sincerely !!

    Without a knowledge of the ancient indian languages, Pali/Prakrit/ Sanskrit, a researcher is severely handicapped or disabled.

    Ms Gill , despite her considerable achievments in studying and achieving a degree in linguistics- Latin etc is no exception.

    Her work will end up showing a bias to Latin/Greek sources.

    Should she, and I hope she does, increase her repetoire of languages, we may well have an exceptional Jat researcher wih us.

    Wish her good luck

    Ravi Chaudhary

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  20. #11

    @ Dear Ravi Chaudhary Sir

    Dear Sir,


    At-least, one thing that has emerged very much clear here is —
    — the Persians were definitely able to spell the phonetic sound of letter (alphabet), " S " !!


    And,


    It is a false notion that the Persians were not able to spell the phonetic sound of letter (alphabet), " S " !!

    ----

    Sincerely !!
    Last edited by Moar; November 6th, 2012 at 09:12 PM.

  21. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ravichaudhary View Post
    PS Good piece of data collection by you. keep it up
    Dear Sir,


    Thank You !!


    But,


    The link to the article — Old Persian cuneiform, was suggested to Me by an American researcher, Bart Dale.


    While,


    The fact that the Persians were successfully able to spell " Saka "; and in-fact, Persians themselves rendered the Scythians' name as Saka, is known to Me for quite some time now, and that's what inspired to Me to initiate a scrutiny; which has concluded that "it is a false notion that the Persians were not able to spell the phonetic sound of letter (alphabet), "S"."

    ----

    Sincerely !!

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  23. #13
    .

    As Raviji has rightly pointed out, without a knowledge of the scripts of ancient Indian languages, a researcher is severely handicapped or diabled. One cannot cross the vast sea of world literature through a tiny boat of West European languages which are based on 26-alphabet Roman script. Maharishi Panini has identified 63 sounds (Verbs and Vowels) in Sanskrit, which we human beings are able to utter, contrary to poor Roman (or English) which takes help by adding H in many words (like k-kh, g-gh, ch, chh, j-jh, t-th, d-dh etc.). Like English or Roman script, Persian (the language of Iranian people) is also not so rich in utterances (उच्चारण स्थान).


    But letter 'S' (sounding as 'स') is so common in all the languages because it is the most common and simple sound. See any dictionary - the words stating with 'S' or 'स’ will be highest in number.

    As Hardeep says, maybe Persians were able to utter 'Saka' well. But here we are discussing why 'Sindhu' became 'Hindu' and how letter H becomes silent somewhere. Yes, it is possible with the passage of time and difference of tounge and pronunciations in different regions or continents.

    Even various Indian languages have separate pronunciations of original words. Yashvir (यशवीर) becomes Jasbir (जसबीर) in Punjabi, Varsha (वर्षा) is uttered "Barkha" in Bangali, where V(व) becomes B(ब) and Sh(ष) converts into Kh(ख). The list is endless Hindi-Bengali : विपाशा (बिपासा), ठाकुर (टैगोर), महाशय (मोशाय), वसु (बसु), अमिताभ (अमिताव) and so on. पुरुषा became पुरखा in Hindi. It is no surprise that 'Sindhu' became 'Hindu' with the passage of time, and due to various factors.



    .
    Last edited by dndeswal; November 7th, 2012 at 12:31 AM.
    तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय

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  25. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Moar View Post
    Dear Sir,



    The fact that the Persians were successfully able to spell " Saka "; and in-fact, Persians themselves rendered the Scythians' name as Saka, is known to Me for quite some time now, a.... "it is a false notion that the Persians were not able to spell the phonetic sound of letter (alphabet), "S"."


    I suspect you will tunnel yourself into a dead end.

    The issue is not whether the Persians( and that too is a very loose term) knew the sound' s, sa' or not. They may well have.

    The issue is rather that in many cases the sound S transforms into the H sound.


    Sarasvati in India is Harahvati in Aghanistan.

    Sapt in Haft.( 7)

    Sindhu is Hindhu.

    Sind is Hindh and so on.

    The other dead end trap you are facing is the need to accept the concept of a "scythian".
    That is largely a Greek derivative made popular by later colonial writers.


    The term Saka is known to Indians, the term Scythian is not.


    Best to stay clear of all this

    Ravi Chaudhary

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  27. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moar View Post
    Dear Sir,


    Thank You !!


    But,


    The link to the article — Old Persian cuneiform, was suggested to Me by an American researcher, Bart Dale.


    While,


    The fact that the Persians were successfully able to spell " Saka "; and in-fact, Persians themselves rendered the Scythians' name as Saka, is known to Me for quite some time now, and that's what inspired to Me to initiate a scrutiny; which has concluded that "it is a false notion that the Persians were not able to spell the phonetic sound of letter (alphabet), "S"."

    ----

    Sincerely !!
    Friend,

    Perhaps, in view of the results of the present discussion, the problem of 'Sindhu' becoming 'Hindu' stands cleared.

    Further, Your quest for knowledge is quite obvious as several links provided by you through your posts. But remember the big names of scholars may lead us astray from the topic being discussed. So beware such trappings and keep good research work up.

    Thanks and regards.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; November 7th, 2012 at 09:12 AM.

  28. #16
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    I think Persians were well versed with Sanskrit. We have very similar words and pronunciation in Sanskrit and Persian. If S was silent in Persian then what would they pronounce Sanskrit ? If S changes to H all the times then Sanskrit becomes Hanskrit. This is never reported. The change of S to H is found in Sindh, Marwar and Gujarat regions. This shift is due to other factors which is a matter of research.
    Laxman Burdak

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  30. #17
    तमिल "ह" को उच्चारित नहीं कर पाते । वे "ह" की जगह "क" का प्रयोग ज्यादा करते हैं । जेसे की "दही" को वे "दकी" उच्चारित करते हैं ।
    :rockwhen you found a key to success,some ideot change the lock,*******BREAK THE DOOR.
    हक़ मांगने से नहीं मिलता , छिना जाता हे |
    अहिंसा कमजोरों का हथियार हे |
    पगड़ी संभाल जट्टा |
    मौत नु आंगालियाँ पे नचांदे , ते आपां जाट कुहांदे |

  31. #18
    Hardeep is doing a good job by bringing all this to reader's attention.


    Burdakji has correctly pointed out the link between ancient Iran and Vedic society.

    Linguistics is the key the ancient languages and history.

    The transformation of various sounds in various languages, and the evolution of various languages is an essential area of research for historians and for ordinary people like me.

    What were the grammartical rules, and the phonetic rules that governed these transformations?

    Hopefully this will inspire Jat youth to take up studies of ancient languages as a career.

    Salaries in this field are now not bad at all.

    Warm regards

    Ravi Chaudhary
    Last edited by ravichaudhary; November 7th, 2012 at 04:00 PM.

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  33. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    .

    Maharishi Panini has identified 63 sounds (Verbs and Vowels) in Sanskrit,. . . .
    Dear Sir,

    Sanskrit itself developed from the Vedic language spoken in Saptha Sindhva (Indus-Yamuna region, 1500 BC - 500 BC). Nowhere is the word 'Sanskrit' mentioned in Vedic scriptures. Even the grammarian Panini mentions only 'Chandassa' and not 'Sanskrit'.

    Vedic languages [ Rigvedic Samvedic Atharvic and Yajurvedic Brahmanic, the language of the Brahmanas Upanishadic, the language of the Upanishads North Indo-Aryan languages, eg. Bal Sarasvati (the precursor of Konkani), Gandharvi (the precursor of Gandhari), etc. Midland Indo-Aryan languages, eg. Braj buli (the language of Krishna and Matsyi (the precursor of Sauraseni) ] -->> Chandasa -->> Sanskrit.

    And, I agree with Wendy Doniger (O' Flaherty) that Prakrit preceded Sanskrit.

    But, at the moment I AM busy having a foundation course in History, by reading intense research-works (most of which has left Me exclaimed); so, We will have a little chit-chat about this later-on.


    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post

    maybe Persians were able to utter 'Saka' well. But here we are discussing why 'Sindhu' became 'Hindu'. . . .

    .
    What ?! "maybe" be able to utter ?!

    Dear Sir, Persians spelled the name Saka, over and over and over again. Persians were able to spell the phonetic sound of the letter (alphabet), "S".

    And,

    Dear Sir, The title of the thread is, "Persians rendered the name (Scythians') as Sakā ! Persian S -> H, is a false notion !"

    Dear Sir, The origin of the word Hindu is a matter of intense research-work and immense scrutiny; and maybe Baldev Singh has outsmarted many !!

    ----

    And,

    I AM looking at the subject with a Neutral Point of View, please read : http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...l=1#post303182 ; and be aware that I AM considering the options also, to develop an understanding (personal) of the subject.

    ----

    Sincerely !!
    Last edited by Moar; November 8th, 2012 at 11:04 PM.

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  35. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Perhaps, in view of the results of the present discussion, the problem of 'Sindhu' becoming 'Hindu' stands cleared.
    No Sir, it doesn't stands clear to Me. At-least not to Me and Baldev Singh; and I have found Myself in Baldev Singh's camp !!

    As Baldev Singh has quoted, "India will remain mired in religious, caste, linguistic and ethnic strifes as long as Indians don’t come to terms with their past history objectively and learn from it. < http://www.jatland.com/forums/showth...hief-Slave-%29 > "


    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post

    Further, Your quest for knowledge is quite obvious as several links provided by you through your posts. But remember the big names of scholars may lead us astray from the topic being discussed. So beware such trappings and keep good research work up.

    Thanks and regards.
    Dear Dr. Rajpal Singh Sir, please initiate a new Thread with the title, "Identifying Reliable Sources".

    ----

    Sincerely !!
    Last edited by Moar; November 8th, 2012 at 11:15 PM.

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