Chronology of Indian History --Newer discussions

[DrRajpalSingh]

Dr Singh,

The map does not seem right. In above few postings you limit original home to just 3 countries which are immediately west of Pamir but here the red square covers 3-4 times as many countries. Can you please contract the square and re-paste for sake of better accuracy.

Secondly according to you, can Saraswati be placed anywhere on this map.

Friend,

Welcome good questions raised. I will try to elucidate the full gamut of the problem involved in identification of the original abode of the 'Aryan' stock.

So far, only references related to 'Devaloka' as mentioned in the Rigaveda and Puranas have been taken up which relate to the three countries as well as some Northern fringe region of the ancient Uttar Kuru region in central Asia.

The area covered by these three regions is ascribed by the Historians as abode of one branch of the 'Aryans' i.e. styled as Indo Europeans.

The wider area shown through the means of map comprises both the Devaloka mentioned in Indian literature and also Piterloka i.e. abode of Indo-Iranians as referred to in Avesta and other traditions.

It is to be brought to the notice of scholars that the places identified [or yet to be included in the following posts as identified] have been found to be the abode of both the people i.e. Indo-Europeans as well as Indo-Iranians at some point of time collectively. The identifications have been supported by the Archaeological finds collected from the sites located in this wide region.

The full texts of the studies cannot be produced in this discussion due to constraints of the Copy Right rules hence just hints or portions/extracts from the relevant studies are being provided. At the end of the study we will try to append full bibiliography and links for cross checking and further research.

As regards your question on the placement of Saraswati on the Map, please wait to find its references in the discussion that follows. Presently, this can be said that in addition to Indian Sacred Saraswati, one more Saraswati would also be taken up for identification in the Devaloka/Piterloka region.

Thanks.

[DrRajpalSingh]

An appeal :

Kindly let us know the latest references/ studies undertaken on the issue of Identification of Devaloka and Pitarloka in the recent years so that their finds also may be taken up to further stimulate the discussion.

Hope the appeal is responded to with positive contribution to the discussion.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Friends,

Let us join a visit to Pitrloka or the home of the 'Indo Iranians’, taking with us for ready reference Dr. D P Misra and Dr. Buddha Prakash's books as quoted in earlier posts in addition to other relevant literature needed for smooth journey.

As per the Iranian tradition preserved in the Vendidad, Fargard I of the Zend -Avesta, there is reference to 16 good lands created by Ahura Mazda one after another whose names in order of creation are:


1. Airyyana Vaejo or Iranvej: The first god chosen land for which the word ‘Iranvej’ has been used. It means ‘the seed of the Iranians.’ Therefore, it may be equated with the cradle of Iranians and first created in the Vendidad as the good land. The research by Ernst Herzfeld says in this regard: ‘’From time immemorial, at least from the third millennium down to the middle of the second, the Aryans inhabited, as an undivided ethnical group, the vast plains of the Oxus and the Jaxtartes, the land of Eranvej of the two rivers Vahvi-Datiya and Ranha.” [cited from Iran in the Ancient East, [1941], p. 190 by Misra, D.P. , op cit., p.32]. However, Pithawalla says that Iranvej lay in the valley of Syr Darya.

2. Sughdha: the second god chosen land Sughdha is identified with Sogdiana or the Amu Darya valley and the valley of Zarafshan. [Now the god chosen land falls within the Steppe-Desert belt of Afrasia.

3. Moura: in the Avesta and Margu in the Achemanian inscriptions, Margiana for the Greeks is the region identified with Turkemenistan having medieaval times famous city Merv. N L Dey identified it with Sanskrit word ‘Mrga’ which name, according to him, has survived in Murg-Ab, the river of Merv. The whole region of Margiana lies in a fertile oasis between the Karakuram desert and the Kopet Mountains.

4. Bakhdhi: [Bakhtri in old Persian and Bactaria Greek]. It is same as Iranian Balkh and Indian Vahilka. This is the region lying between the river Oxus and the Hindukush comprises Pauranic Ketumala Varsa. The town of Bacteria, for Iranians--the mother of cities, was situated on the southern side of the river Oxus.

5. Nisaya: According to the location indicated in the Vendidad it lay between Mouru and Bakhdhi i.e., between Merv and Bacteria; but no such place as Nisaya has been explored so far hence it may be considered as yet to be explained

6. Haroyu: or Haraiva [old Persian} or Areia {Greek} is the region comprising the valley of the river Harirud. Haroyu corresponds to Indian Sarayu. This is famous for its fruits production with principal town Heart, a town of antiquity.

contd...next post/------

[DrRajpalSingh]

........Continued from previous post........

1. Vaekereta stands for Seistan, lying to south of Harirud. The word Seistan is equivalent to Sanskrit Sakasthana, so known as it was later on conquered by the sakas also designated as Scythians.

2. Hrva or Urva identified by some with ‘Mesene, the region of the lower Eupharates’ orby others with the valley of Kabul.

3. Khenta was ancient Kandhar.

4. Harahvaiti: the name of the region through which the river Arghanbad flows. The region was known to the Greeks as Arachosia. [Does Harahvaiti stands for Skt. word Saraswati ? will be taken up for discussion separately].

5. Haetumant: or Greek Etumandros is equivalent to the Sanskrit word Setumanta and is now known as Helmand with the Chief town present Ghazni.

6. Ragha: or Raga [Old Persian] or Ragai [Greek] is Rae, now a suburb of Tehran, which is very old habitation according to the local legends.

7. Kakhra or Chakra [Sanskrit] is the region in the Kura valley in Azerbaijan.

8. Varena: Identification assigned to it is with Varena, modern Buner located above Attock and the Pangkora which joins the Kabul river before it falls in the Indus at Attock. Some identify it with Gilan also and others with Mt. Demavand or Verana in Kasmir.

9. Hapta Hendu: or Hepta Hindava which is Sanskrit Sapta Sindhu or the region of the Indus and its six tributaries.

10. Rangha: or Vedic Rasa. Identified by scholars variously with Tigris, Jaxtartes or Syr Darya or Pauranic Bhadrasoma.
Some scholars are of the view that this list of ‘’good lands’’ represents the actual order of migration and settlements of the old Iranian tribes from south and south east till they occupied Caspian Sea to the Arabian see but others do not agree with this explanation. They look upon it as nothing more than a geographical description of Iran seen from the religious point of view. This type of research studies will be taken into consideration later on after finding out the names of the groups of people residing in the Devaloka and the Pitrloka.

First let us discuss this identification by way of comments of the readers on this geographical description of the Vendidad based list and identification of different regions approximately corresponding with it.

Thanks.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Friends,

The term used in earlier posts as 'Devaloka' encompasses in it the word 'Uttarakuru' also hence the identification of one may be taken as if both had been identified as such..

Thanks

[narenderkharb]

Friends,

The term used in earlier posts as 'Devaloka' encompasses in it the word 'Uttarakuru' also hence the identification of one may be taken as if both had been identified as such..

Thanks

More or less proper identification of Puranic/Vedic lands
It was foolish of some Indians authors to find Vedic Vahilka in Punjab just to show Aryans were native Indian
Same way as I wrote many times earlier also Sarswati of Vedas never flowed in India Arghanbad /Helmand of Iran is the real Saraswati of Vedic Aryans.
I do have certain differnce of opinion with Mishra and Ali on Hepta/Hindva and Vaekereta description but That can be take afterwards .Let us first put complete research of Ali and Mishra here and invite objection of those who always thought Vedic Aryans were native Indians .

[DrRajpalSingh]

More or less proper identification of Puranic/Vedic lands
It was foolish of some Indians authors to find Vedic Vahilka in Punjab just to show Aryans were native Indian
Same way as I wrote many times earlier also Sarswati of Vedas never flowed in India Arghanbad /Helmand of Iran is the real Saraswati of Vedic Aryans.
I do have certain differnce of opinion with Mishra and Ali on Hepta/Hindva and Vaekereta description but That can be take afterwards .Let us first put complete research of Ali and Mishra here and invite objection of those who always thought Vedic Aryans were native Indians .

Thanks Kharb Sahib for your searching questions on some of the issues of debate on the identification of territories mentioned in Indian and Iranian ancient traditions carried out on the basis of researches conducted by certain scholars.

The earlier authors on the subject did their best to explore the regions based in the Puranas and Rigveda under the then prevalent conditions of the state of knowledge and contributed immensely to the advancement and progress of research in their own way. Therefore, we owe a sense of gratitude to them for what they did in that field and should avoid appending derogatory adjectives before 'some Indian authors' for their failure to identify proper home land of the 'Aryans.'

The present findings on the issue may be further changed/improved/modified/confirmed or rejected in future with advancements made in the field of research methodology and collection of source materials. Application of newer scientific techniques to interpret the multitude of data being collected has every chance to do so.

On identification of the regions/territories mentioned by you as Hepta and Vaekereta, kindly share your views.

Identification of 'Saraswati' may wait for some time at present juncture.

Regards.

[narenderkharb]

The earlier authors on the subject did their best to explore the regions based in the Puranas and Rigveda under the then prevalent conditions of the state of knowledge and contributed immensely to the advancement and progress of research in their own way.
Identification of 'Saraswati' may wait for some time at present juncture.

Regards.

My mention of some Indian authors is for that lobby of modern scholars like s kalayan raman ...K elst etc who despite of knowing evidences to the contrary are biased in their approach because of this or that reason not for earlier authors who were not having access to all the study material.

Regarding Hapta hindva and Saraswati we can discuss later on .Let us first make our stands clear. Let the Indian origin group on this site clear their stand on this narration by Mishra and Ali

[nrao]

Pretty interesting, seems like BS Dahiya's later work being invoked. If the land of Uttarakuru is where you say it is based on different scholars that you cited, then where do you place the land of Kuru. What is the difference in timeframe between the two people?

Friends,

The term used in earlier posts as 'Devaloka' encompasses in it the word 'Uttarakuru' also hence the identification of one may be taken as if both had been identified as such..

Thanks

[DrRajpalSingh]

My mention of some Indian authors is for that lobby of modern scholars like s kalayan raman ...K elst etc who despite of knowing evidences to the contrary are biased in their approach because of this or that reason not for earlier authors who were not having access to all the study material.

Regarding Hapta hindva and Saraswati we can discuss later on .Let us first make our stands clear. Let the Indian origin group on this site clear their stand on this narration by Mishra and Ali

In Agreement with your suggestion, let me straighten the record about the material posted on the issue, the identification is based on the study undertaken by D P Misra and Published in the book form as, 'Studies in the Proto-History of India' (1971) Delhi. Additional notes have been added here and there from other books also by me but major
theme revolves round the findings of Dr. Misra, who has quoted not only Dr. Ali but so many authorities in his treatise on the issue of original abode of the 'Aryans'.

There are so many other studies available on the topic, and, it would be right as suggested by Shri Narender Kharb, to finally settle the issue of identification of the regions inhabited by the ancient 'Aryas.' So let us come forward to contribute to the discussion on 'ABODE OF ARYAS.'

Thanks,

[lrburdak]

Devaloka on Wikipedia

In Indian religions, a devaloka or deva loka is a plane of existence where gods and devas exist. The deva lokas are usually described as places of eternal light and goodness, similar to the concept of Heaven. Teachers of different Hindu denominations may call such homes of the gods by other names, including Svarga, each differing in non-fundamental aspects.

To Hindus, Devaloka is a plane of blissful existence that can be reached as soon as one is sufficiently attuned to light and good. However, to become even better and to learn more, one must return to a life on Earth, until all the learning possibilities here have been exhausted. Then, any other lives become unnecessary and liberation (moksha) is achieved. When that happens, the practitioner can even reach higher planes, such as Vaikuntha and Sivaloka (Kailasa), places of union with Vishnu and Shiva.

In Buddhism, a deva loka is a dwelling place of the Buddhist devas. The worlds of the devas differ greatly from each other depending on the nature of their inhabitants.

[Romar]

The relevant extract from the above link is reproduced hereinunder for the benefit of critical analysis of the proceedings of the present discussion vis-a-vis the new source Deva Samhita:

Dev Samhita kab likhi gayi thi or kaunse shlok mein central asia ka varnan milta hai?

[narenderkharb]

Dev Samhita kab likhi gayi thi or kaunse shlok mein central asia ka varnan milta hai?

Let us keep our attention focused on Vedic geography or to say Abode of Aryans as Dr Rajpal ji mentioned .Dev Saminhta and Jats or relationship of Aryans with Jats will be taken subsequently.

Where is that Indian origin group of Jatland scholars who used to make fun of anything that had a remote mention of central Asian connection? It is an opportunity for all those to educate themselves and come out of their confusion once and for all.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Pretty interesting, seems like BS Dahiya's later work being invoked. If the land of Uttarakuru is where you say it is based on different scholars that you cited, then where do you place the land of Kuru. What is the difference in time frame between the two people?

Thanks Dr. Rao for the Good question for discussion on the Kuru and Uttarkuru identification. I shall definitely love to reply; but at present, I have not been able to lay my hands on the reference hinted on Dr. Dahiya's later work.

Hence, in the meantime, a request to Dr. Rao to share with us what Dr. Dahiya has said on this issue.

Regards

[DrRajpalSingh]

On The identification of 'Kuru' and 'Uttarkuru' debate in History:

Quoting Rigveda, it has been observed that there are references to two Kauravya princes in the Rigveda, which proves that tge name Kuru was known to the composer of some hymns of the Rigveda, however, ''the fact that the tribe of the Kurus or the land called Kurukshetra is conspicous by absence in it indicate that it did not play any important part in that age. In the Rgvedic period, in the territory of the Drsadvati, sarasvati and Apaya, later known as Kurukshetra, on account of the association of the Kurus, the Bharata kings are said to have kindled the sacred fire.'' {Rigveda, III.23}. It was the home of later Vedic culture and references to this Kuruksetra region are found in Atharvaveda, Jaminiya Upanisad Brhamana, III. 7.6; VIII.7 Kausitaki Upanisad, IV.I; Gopath Brahmana, 1.2.9; Kathaka Samhita, X.6; Pancvimasa Brahmana, 1 XXV, 10. Satpatha,Brahamana IV, 1.5.1; Aitrareya Brahmana, VII, 30 et al. cited by Dr. Buddha Prakash.

However, this is not all about the Kuru region and Kuru people; as the Atterya Brahmana states that the people living beyond the snowy regions like the Uttarkurus, annoint their kings for Vairajya, who as a result, are called Viratas. At another place, AB, describes Janampati Atyarati annointed by Vasistha Satyahavya went over the whole earth and conquered it up to the oceans. At that point, Vasishtha demanded his fee to which the former said that he would confer the whole empire on him and would become a commander of his army after he would conquer the Uttarakurus. Vasishtha described Uttrakuru as Devaloka -- the Land of gods-- and hence considered it as invincible. This caused rift between the two. [Attairya Brahamana, VIII, 14; and VIII. 23]

This shows that the distance between the Kurus and Uttarakurus region was considerable. The Mahabharata also uses the name Uttarkuru in contradiction to Dakshinakuru for which numerous instances are available in the text of MBT. According to Mahabharata Uttarakuru, lying to the north of the Himalayas, was a land of Idylic pleasure and bucolic beauty. It represents the region located to the north of Himaalyas watered by the Tarim and its tributaries. Chinese travellers and pilgrims have testified to the prosperity and richness of these regions

Puraana Texts also state that there existed separate regions named Uttarakuru and Dakshinakuru as quoted by several researchers.


Thanks



N.B: On the location of the regions occupied by 'Kurus' and 'Uttarkuru' kindly see two very interesting articles on the issue. They are: Buddha Parkash, 'Uttarkuru', Bulletin of Tibetology, Vol. II, No. 1 (March, 1965), pp. 27-34; and, N.C. Sinha, 'Uttrakuru in Tibetan Tradition', Bulletin of Tibetology, Vol. II, No. I (March, 1965), pp. 35-38.

[DrRajpalSingh]

The discussion so far, on the issue of the Ancient Abode of the 'Aryanas' has explicitly brought forward the fact that to identify the Aryan abode in proper perspective will lead to proper understanding of the Ancient Indian history. To achieve this end, we have to broaden our vision and have to think of spread of 'Jambudwipa' from Mangolia to Syria and from the region touching Siberia to India i.e. commonly termed as Central Asia.

This was the area where started a long drawn Devasura conflict among them which led to migration of various groups of these people from time to time in different directions. The literary sources, archaeological findings and other related sources support this view. Other scholars are working on DNA tests and other latest techniques to analyse all this identification of the ancient abode of the Indo-Aryans, Indo-Iranians and Indo-Europeans i.e. Devaloka of the Rigveda and Puranas as well as Pitrloka of Zend Avesta.

If someone has reservation on the issue, his comments based on sources primary as well as secondary are invited and his participation in the discussion with searching comments are welcome so that we could make suitable amendments, if any, in our tentative conclusions.

Thanks.

[DrRajpalSingh]

Now let us move to see the fierce battle between Devas and Asuras which lasted for about a thousand years:

Basing his study on the evidences from Vedic literature on the issue of Deva-Asura Yudha, the author of Mahabharata, [Santiparva: Ch. XXXII], sums up the causes and course of the same through a dialogue between Sri Krishana and Arjuna. In reply to Arjuna's question, Sri Krishana says:

"O Arjuna, we have heard that formerly in the Devasura War, the elder brothers, the Daityas, and the younger brothers, the Devas, fought for gaining wealth. the war lasted for a thousand years. The Devas turned the entire earth into an ocean of blood, killed the Daityas and obtained the three Devalokas [Tridiva].''

[DrRajpalSingh]

On The identification of 'Kuru' and 'Uttarkuru' debate in History:

Quoting Rigveda, it has been observed that there are references to two Kauravya princes in the Rigveda, which proves that tge name Kuru was known to the composer of some hymns of the Rigveda, however, ''the fact that the tribe of the Kurus or the land called Kurukshetra is conspicous by absence in it indicate that it did not play any important part in that age. In the Rgvedic period, in the territory of the Drsadvati, sarasvati and Apaya, later known as Kurukshetra, on account of the association of the Kurus, the Bharata kings are said to have kindled the sacred fire.'' {Rigveda, III.23}. It was the home of later Vedic culture and references to this Kuruksetra region are found in Atharvaveda, Jaminiya Upanisad Brhamana, III. 7.6; VIII.7 Kausitaki Upanisad, IV.I; Gopath Brahmana, 1.2.9; Kathaka Samhita, X.6; Pancvimasa Brahmana, 1 XXV, 10. Satpatha,Brahamana IV, 1.5.1; Aitrareya Brahmana, VII, 30 et al. cited by Dr. Buddha Prakash.
However, this is not all about the Kuru region and Kuru people; as the Atterya Brahmana states that the people living beyond the snowy regions like the Uttarkurus, annoint their kings for Vairajya, who as a result, are called Viratas. At another place, AB, describes Janampati Atyarati annointed by Vasistha Satyahavya went over the whole earth and conquered it up to the oceans. At that point, Vasishtha demanded his fee to which the former said that he would confer the whole empire on him and would become a commander of his army after he would conquer the Uttarakurus. Vasishtha described Uttrakuru as Devaloka -- the Land of gods-- and hence considered it as invincible. This caused rift between the two. [Attairya Brahamana, VIII, 14; and VIII. 23]
This shows that the distance between the Kurus and Uttarakurus region was considerable. The Mahabharata also uses the name Uttarkuru in contradiction to Dakshinakuru for which numerous instances are available in the text of MBT. According to Mahabharata Uttarakuru, lying to the north of the Himalayas, was a land of Idylic pleasure and bucolic beauty. It represents the region located to the north of Himaalyas watered by the Tarim and its tributaries. Chinese travellers and pilgrims have testified to the prosperity and richness of these regions
Puraana Texts also state that there existed separate regions named Uttarakuru and Dakshinakuru as quoted by several researchers.
Thanks
N.B: On the location of the regions occupied by 'Kurus' and 'Uttarkuru' kindly see two very interesting articles on the issue. They are: Buddha Parkash, 'Uttarkuru', Bulletin of Tibetology, Vol. II, No. 1 (March, 1965), pp. 27-34; and, N.C. Sinha, 'Uttrakuru in Tibetan Tradition', Bulletin of Tibetology, Vol. II, No. I (March, 1965), pp. 35-38.

In continuation of the above identification of Uttrakuru, we quote Tibetan document cited by Dr. Buddha Prakash according to which ''this land lay in the direction of the Tarim Valley somewhere in eastern Turkestan. The change of climate and inroad of sandy waste, perhaps, led to the dispersal of the Kurus from there. one of their sections reached Iran, swept through the corridor between the southern foot of the Elburz range and the northern pasture lands in the basin of lake Urmiyah and, beyond that, in the steppe country in the lower basin of the rivers Aras and Kur, adjoining the west coast of the Caspian Sea. From there they travelled on still further westward over the watershed between the basins of the aras and the Qyzyl Irmaq (Halys) and debouched into the Anatolian Peninsula to settle in the region, called the Kuru Plain, Koroupedion, after their name, which like its Indian countrer part Kurukshetra was the scene of memorable battles.." pp.116-117.

[DrRajpalSingh]

In continuation of the above identification of Uttrakuru, we quote Tibetan document cited by Dr. Buddha Prakash according to which ''this land lay in the direction of the Tarim Valley somewhere in eastern Turkestan. The change of climate and inroad of sandy waste, perhaps, led to the dispersal of the Kurus from there. one of their sections reached Iran, swept through the corridor between the southern foot of the Elburz range and the northern pasture lands in the basin of lake Urmiyah and, beyond that, in the steppe country in the lower basin of the rivers Aras and Kur, adjoining the west coast of the Caspian Sea. From there they travelled on still further westward over the watershed between the basins of the aras and the Qyzyl Irmaq (Halys) and debouched into the Anatolian Peninsula to settle in the region, called the Kuru Plain, Koroupedion, after their name, which like its Indian countrer part Kurukshetra was the scene of memorable battles.." pp.116-117.

Further, it is found that other two branches of these Kurus also found their way to other pastures. One of them found its was to Luristan and joined the early Achaemenids, as revealed by the names of two rulers of this dynasty bear Kuru names.

Third branch of these Kurus descended to the south-east and through Bacteria and the Hindukush moved into India.

Thanks

[nrao]

On The identification of 'Kuru' and 'Uttarkuru' debate in History:

Quoting Rigveda, it has been observed that there are references to two Kauravya princes in the Rigveda, which proves that tge name Kuru was known to the composer of some hymns of the Rigveda, however, ''the fact that the tribe of the Kurus or the land called Kurukshetra is conspicous by absence in it indicate that it did not play any important part in that age. In the Rgvedic period, in the territory of the Drsadvati, sarasvati and Apaya, later known as Kurukshetra, on account of the association of the Kurus, the Bharata kings are said to have kindled the sacred fire.'' {Rigveda, III.23}. It was the home of later Vedic culture and references to this Kuruksetra region are found in Atharvaveda, Jaminiya Upanisad Brhamana, III. 7.6; VIII.7 Kausitaki Upanisad, IV.I; Gopath Brahmana, 1.2.9; Kathaka Samhita, X.6; Pancvimasa Brahmana, 1 XXV, 10. Satpatha,Brahamana IV, 1.5.1; Aitrareya Brahmana, VII, 30 et al. cited by Dr. Buddha Prakash.

I have truncated your text because of one particular piece of information namely, location of Sarasvati, placing it in between Drsadvati and Apaya (Kurukshetra). Interesting indeed -

" ... In the Rgvedic period, in the territory of the Drsadvati, sarasvati and Apaya, later known as Kurukshetra, on account of the association of the Kurus, the Bharata kings are said to have kindled the sacred fire.'' {Rigveda, III.23}."