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Thread: Understanding History

  1. #21
    One has to contain one's habit of jumping at once to derive conclusion on merely one

    shred of evidence regarding the remote past.


    For proper appreciation of the past events one has to judiciously weigh

    the evidences collected, analyse them and then try to establish cross contact

    with the known accepted historic dates/events, if any.


    The archaeological evidences and traditions as enshrined in old literary

    works must also be taken into consideration to draw tangible results.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  2. #22
    While using ancient Indian literature scholars generally consider Puranas as myths and legends and Mahabharata as History.

    But the word couple 'Itihas-Purana' is mentioned in various ancient books like Upanishads, Puranas and Mahabharata. To

    understand the importance of subjects like Itihas-Purana, see, what Yajnavalkya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad [B.U. 2.4.10] says:

    ''Itihas and Purana are among those subjects which were created by God himself.''
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    While using ancient Indian literature scholars generally consider Puranas as myths and legends and Mahabharata as History.

    But the word couple 'Itihas-Purana' is mentioned in various ancient books like Upanishads, Puranas and Mahabharata. To

    understand the importance of subjects like Itihas-Purana, see, what Yajnavalkya in Brihadaranyaka Upanishad [B.U. 2.4.10] says:

    ''Itihas and Purana are among those subjects which were created by God himself.''
    The word couple, Itihas [iti-ha-asa or itiha-as] and Purana [Pura i.e. old or Ancient] came into currency during the time of Vyas, who reorganised the Puranas and dictated the Jaya [itihas] to Ganesa.

    Purana, the Ancient History up to the time of their reorganisation during his times; but for their updation it was decided to keep on adding to them subsequent progress too. It was also decided that for future additions to old Purana section, Sauti will continue to remain the symbolic narrator and history of future kings from that time onwards would be narrated in future tense even though recorded after the event.

    The word Itihas was used for 'current' history. In this sense the Jaya [later grew to be Mahabharata] that recorded as contemporary history became first book of Itihas whereas Puranas conveyed the meaning of Ancient History.

    Irrespective of this thin differentiation, the couple words 'Purana-Itihas' used as a subject of study in ancient times, continued to be used to convey meaning complementary to each other i.e. History.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  4. #24
    Friends,

    The key to understanding history lies in the understanding the chronological order

    of events. In this regard, proto historic and prehistoric times, we have no definite

    information of so many events and persons about whom references appear in

    tradition recorded later on. The mess is caused in the matter due to existence

    of so many calendars and eras. So far Indian scenario in this regard is concerned,

    the situation is not better.

    Therefore, it is necessary for a student of ancient history of India

    to know how the chronology of Ancient Indian History has been fixed and

    how the same could be judged again by applying latest tools of research.

    Kindly share your views on the ancient Indian chronology as available in text books and their authenticity or otherwise !

    Thanks and regards.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friends,

    The key to understanding history lies in the understanding the chronological order

    of events. In this regard, proto historic and prehistoric times, we have no definite

    information of so many events and persons about whom references appear in

    tradition recorded later on. The mess is caused in the matter due to existence

    of so many calendars and eras. So far Indian scenario in this regard is concerned,

    the situation is not better.

    Therefore, it is necessary for a student of ancient history of India

    to know how the chronology of Ancient Indian History has been fixed and

    how the same could be judged again by applying latest tools of research.

    Kindly share your views on the ancient Indian chronology as available in text books and their authenticity or otherwise !

    Thanks and regards.

    Archaeology, carbon dating, recovering of artifacts, ,monuments etc. are the only way of verifying history and connecting history to facts, rest is plain vestigial interest laden misinformation and crap. This misinformation and crap is driven by monetary motives and bad interests.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to maddhan1979 For This Useful Post:

    spdeshwal (August 15th, 2013)

  7. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Archaeology, carbon dating, recovering of artifacts, ,monuments etc. are the only way of verifying history and connecting history to facts, rest is plain vestigial interest laden misinformation and crap. This misinformation and crap is driven by monetary motives and bad interests.
    Numismatics [the study of coins] is another very important and dependable source used for fixation of chronology.

    In addition it serves to study inner and external trade and commerce activities, relations between the neighbouring states,

    economic status of the concerned ruler, development of technology of minting, languages used, iconography engraved etc.etc.

    Many a tribal republican kingdoms like Yaudheyas. Kuninadas, Arjunayans etc. and ruling dynasties like Saka and Kushanas have

    been studied on the base of numismatic evidences in India.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  8. #27
    What is history:

    It may be that universal history is the history of the different intonations given to a handful of metaphors.

    --J.L.Borges

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  9. #28
    Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. ---George Santayana
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  10. #29
    History is not information that is handed down unchanged from generation to generation.

    Historical situation need to be explained and explanations draw on analyses of the evidence,

    providing generalisations that derive from the logic of the argument. With new evidence or

    fresh interpretations of existing evidence, a new understanding of the past can be achieved.
    ----------------Romila Thapar
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  11. #30
    Regarding Indian History, it is common observation that there is quite a bit of nudity in sculpture form. So much so that even temples and Buddhist viharas and female deities are frequently adorned this way. Why does our history lay so much emphasis on female body?


    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    History is the philosophy of transitoriness. All its assertions are relative to time and place. All its postulates have reference to particular situations and circumstances. Therefore, it is one’s duty to penetrate through the superficial connotation of passing character to the profound significance of enduring nature.

  12. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    Regarding Indian History, it is common observation that there is quite a bit of nudity in sculpture form. So much so that even temples and Buddhist viharas and female deities are frequently adorned this way. Why does our history lay so much emphasis on female body?
    A Hindi proverb goes: Jaisi drishti, vaisi srishti !!!

    In addition to 'nudity in sculpture form' so many aesthetic aspects are also available in abundance in our ancient art; now it is up to the onlooker what he/she wants to gaze upon in our rich cultural heritage !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  13. #32
    why not as much nudity in male form? Is it a reflection of the male psyche of the society?


    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    A Hindi proverb goes: Jaisi drishti, vaisi srishti !!!

    In addition to 'nudity in sculpture form' so many aesthetic aspects are also available in abundance in our ancient art; now it is up to the onlooker what he/she wants to gaze upon in our rich cultural heritage !

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to urmiladuhan For This Useful Post:

    spdeshwal (August 15th, 2013)

  15. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    why not as much nudity in male form? Is it a reflection of the male psyche of the society?
    You are free to draw your own inferences !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  16. #34
    I thought you wanted to have a discussion! And now you don't ?

    Regards,

    Urmila.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    You are free to draw your own inferences !

  17. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friends,

    The key to understanding history lies in the understanding the chronological order

    of events. In this regard, proto historic and prehistoric times, we have no definite

    information of so many events and persons about whom references appear in

    tradition recorded later on. The mess is caused in the matter due to existence

    of so many calendars and eras. So far Indian scenario in this regard is concerned,

    the situation is not better.

    Therefore, it is necessary for a student of ancient history of India

    to know how the chronology of Ancient Indian History has been fixed and

    how the same could be judged again by applying latest tools of research.

    Kindly share your views on the ancient Indian chronology as available in text books and their authenticity or otherwise !

    Thanks and regards.
    Regarding the Vedas it is said that they have been perpetuated by oral tradition till the time they were collected and arranged by a school or schools of learned persons of which the nominal head was Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasa, the Indian Pisistratus. Vyasa, who flourished in the early part of the pre-Mahabharata War period and continued to live in post Mbt period, with others, having collected and arranged the 'revealed scriptures', taught them to some of his disciples like the Rik to Paila, the Yajus to Vaisampayana, the Saman to Jaimini, and the Atharvan to Sumantu, and they in like manner taught to their disciples, who again in their turn communicated their knowledge to their pupils.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to DrRajpalSingh For This Useful Post:

    spdeshwal (August 15th, 2013)

  19. #36
    I see every history related thread filled with mentions of epics and literary sources, all of which may or may not be reliable as source of accurate historical knowledge.

    I am not a trained historian as many here, but how do we figure out what is pure literary/poetic embellishment in an epic or a Purana and what is accurate historical description? Isn't quoting the Vedas and Puranas fraught with danger as their motive was to serve as religious/philosophical texts rather than give an historical account to the reader?

    Evaluating for historical accuracy, I would certainly give more weightage to a trader or a traveller's account like a Marco Polo, Al Bureni, Hieuen Tsang's rather than a Ved, Purana or Mahabharata.
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

  20. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to swaich For This Useful Post:

    DrRajpalSingh (August 15th, 2013), spdeshwal (August 15th, 2013), urmiladuhan (August 15th, 2013)

  21. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    Regarding Indian History, it is common observation that there is quite a bit of nudity in sculpture form. So much so that even temples and Buddhist viharas and female deities are frequently adorned this way. Why does our history lay so much emphasis on female body?
    I think its pretty evident that our ancient culture celebrated the female form. The artistic appreciation of the female body is used in paying odes to Gods as one finds in the temples of Khajuraho. And yes, I believe you are right in your observation that the male form doesn't receive the same importance. This is something different from other ancient societies of the West. The Greeks and the Romans have plenty of such examples in according importance to the male body. I am not sure of other contemporary Asian cultures like the Persians though.

    The question that intrigues me more is that where did it all change? How and when did we go from a society that found female nudity a valid artistic phenomenon to a society that places so many restrictions on women and the way they dress? Some credit this change to the arrival of Islam and its regressive attitudes towards women. But I am not sure if thats the only reason
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

  22. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to swaich For This Useful Post:

    spdeshwal (August 15th, 2013), urmiladuhan (August 15th, 2013)

  23. #38
    how does one explain the tradition of 'sati', which is pre islamic? how does one explain purdha system that a jat women is forced to follow with her in- law male members? (there is no muslim inside their home!).

    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    I think its pretty evident that our ancient culture celebrated the female form. The artistic appreciation of the female body is used in paying odes to Gods as one finds in the temples of Khajuraho. And yes, I believe you are right in your observation that the male form doesn't receive the same importance. This is something different from other ancient societies of the West. The Greeks and the Romans have plenty of such examples in according importance to the male body. I am not sure of other contemporary Asian cultures like the Persians though.

    The question that intrigues me more is that where did it all change? How and when did we go from a society that found female nudity a valid artistic phenomenon to a society that places so many restrictions on women and the way they dress? Some credit this change to the arrival of Islam and its regressive attitudes towards women. But I am not sure if thats the only reason

  24. #39
    i have seen various kushana coins but nowhere is there a queen/princess figure or for that matter a woman figure, while gupta coins celebrate princesses/queens on their coins. as per your jat history beliefs, kushanas were jats!


    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    how does one explain the tradition of 'sati', which is pre islamic? how does one explain purdha system that a jat women is forced to follow with her in- law male members? (there is no muslim inside their home!).

  25. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    I see every history related thread filled with mentions of epics and literary sources, all of which may or may not be reliable as source of accurate historical knowledge.

    I am not a trained historian as many here, but how do we figure out what is pure literary/poetic embellishment in an epic or a Purana and what is accurate historical description? Isn't quoting the Vedas and Puranas fraught with danger as their motive was to serve as religious/philosophical texts rather than give an historical account to the reader?

    Evaluating for historical accuracy, I would certainly give more weightage to a trader or a traveller's account like a Marco Polo, Al Bureni, Hieuen Tsang's rather than a Ved, Purana or Mahabharata.
    Friend,

    Trained historians, archaeologists, linguistics experts, adept numismatists, anthropologists and scientists have been busy in removing the mist from dark periods of history of mankind throughout the world. And lack of sources and data to reconstruct history of the antiquity is a problem throughout the world. The recorded traditions wherever available are being used to reconstruct history of ancient civilisations whether it is Greek, Chinese, Egyptian, Mesopotamian or Indian.

    Prior to Alexander's invasion [327-325 BCE] not much recorded historical references from outside people about Ancient India have come to knowledge.

    Moreover, before the initiation of Buddhism and Jainism in 6th Century BCE, the historians have to rely upon the sources provided by the Ancient literary traditions, in whatever form they are available, to reconstruct history by sifting chaff from flour with the help of either the archaeological remains or the comparative study of the Vedic literature with Puranas and the two ancient historical epics. In addition, the myths and traditions of various countries and continents have also been taken up for comparative study and to find out some clues of historical significance.

    Much work has already been done on this front but much more work yet remains to be done.

    The Indologists from India, Europe and America, for the last two three hundred years, have been engaged in reading and re-reading the ancient Sanskrit literature to prepare a fact based history and as a result of their persistent efforts, many a dark corners have been illuminated but several gaps still remain to be filled in because we are still groping in dark about the real events of such periods.

    As regards, accounts of the foreign travellers as source of Indian history is concerned, yes ,they deserve due weightage. But no blind following of their accounts is warranted as their accounts have also to be compared and contrasted with other available indigenous sources and then and only then they could be used as authentic information.

    Thanks and best wishes,
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 15th, 2013 at 08:16 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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