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Thread: Let us know the Vedas and their Antiquity

  1. #1

    Let us know the Vedas and their Antiquity

    The word Veda is significantly employed to designate those ancient Sanskrit works, in which is laid the foundation of Brahmanic belief. These works were originally three in number, i.e. the Rig Veda, the Sama Veda, and the Yajur Veda as is clear from the frequent mention of traividya or the triple science in ancient Sanskrit literature of the Indian scriptures.

    The prayers in meter are called Rik, and those in prose are denominated yajus, while those intended to be chanted are named saman. The triple Veda is comprehended under the name of Mantra; and the complete collection of hymns, prayers and thanksgivings, belonging to a Veda is called the Samhita.

    But at a more subsequent period a fourth Veda was added to them; though it was never held as sacred as its predecessors were.

    However, they are now commonly four in number, viz. Rig Veda--Veda of hymns; the Sama Veda--the Veda of chants; the Yajur Veda-- the Veda of sacrificial formulas; and the Atharva Veda--Veda of incantations.

    To be continued/-
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  3. #2
    Friends,

    The link :http://www.blavatsky.net/blavatsky/a...OfTheVedas.htm provides much food for thought on the issue of the timeline.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  4. #3
    Lokmanya Bal Ganga Dhar Tilak made a very indepth study on the topic which could be accessed through link:

    http://archive.org/stream/orionortheantiqu021979mbp/orionortheantiqu021979mbp_djvu.txt


    Kindly read and post your comments.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  5. #4
    The Rig Veda is extant only in the recension of the Sakalas; and we know the Vashkala text by notices of its extent. {Max Muller, History of Ancient Sanskrit Literature, p. 220}.

    But the difference between the two was not very considerable; the Vashkalas had only eight hymns more. Although the greater portion of the hymns of the Rik Samhita was composed on the banks of the Indus; their final redaction certainly took place when the Aryan Tribes had moved from the Punjab to the eastern plains, and the Brahmanical element had become predominant; and the Kosala-Videhas and the Kuru-Panchalas had the chief merit of having effected it. [Weber, History of Indian Literature, pp. 10 ff.]

    The Rik is to the students of history the Veda par excellence. The Rig Veda is no less a repository of the hymns which were composed after our early ancestors had reached the land of their adoption, and with which they addressed the gods in whom they believed, and extolled other matters with a spontaneous freshness and simplicity, than it is a storehouse of those hymns which they had brought with them as the most precious heirlooms from their ancient home in the West. {Langlois, Preface to his French translation of the Rig Veda, i. pp. x. xi., also red Journal of the American Oriental Society, iv. p. 249.}

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  7. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    The Rig Veda is extant only in the recension of the Sakalas; and we know the Vashkala text by notices of its extent. {Max Muller, History of Ancient Sanskrit Literature, p. 220}.

    But the difference between the two was not very considerable; the Vashkalas had only eight hymns more. Although the greater portion of the hymns of the Rik Samhita was composed on the banks of the Indus; their final redaction certainly took place when the Aryan Tribes had moved from the Punjab to the eastern plains, and the Brahmanical element had become predominant; and the Kosala-Videhas and the Kuru-Panchalas had the chief merit of having effected it. [Weber, History of Indian Literature, pp. 10 ff.]

    The Rik is to the students of history the Veda par excellence. The Rig Veda is no less a repository of the hymns which were composed after our early ancestors had reached the land of their adoption, and with which they addressed the gods in whom they believed, and extolled other matters with a spontaneous freshness and simplicity, than it is a storehouse of those hymns which they had brought with them as the most precious heirlooms from their ancient home in the West. {Langlois, Preface to his French translation of the Rig Veda, i. pp. x. xi., also red Journal of the American Oriental Society, iv. p. 249.}

    Thanks
    I have not gone in depth into the time frame of Vedas. One thing is certain, Vedas existed with Aryan tribes long before these tribes moved into north west of India. When i state "long before" we have to move back word into history, long before Mahabharata happened. The gods of Aryan tribes were elements of nature. This tells about the closeness, continuous dependence and respect that, these tribes had for nature. This often took the form of human manifestation in form of different gods related with elements of nature, so that humans do not drift away from nature itself.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; August 18th, 2013 at 07:14 AM.

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  9. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    I have not gone in depth into the time frame of Vedas. One thing is certain, Vedas existed with Aryan tribes long before these tribes moved into north west of India. When i state "long before" we have to move back word into history, long before Mahabharata happened. The gods of Aryan tribes were elements of nature. This tells about the closeness, continuous dependence and respect that, these tribes had for nature. This often took the form of human manifestation in form of different gods related with elements of nature, so that humans do not drift away from nature itself.
    At the time of arrival of these tribes in India, there seemed to be a parallel way of thought already existing in Bharat, this parallel way of thought was more closely related with the concept of "Hindu", way of life and "Idol Worship". One example that can be seen is the concept of Hindu god "Shiva", whose existence seems to be emerging from south of India or already existing way of thought.

    Whereas, the Aryan tribe gods do not seem to be have an "Idol existence". These gods were parts of elements of nature which always seem to be omnipresent with the lives of these tribes where ever they went.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; August 18th, 2013 at 09:08 AM.

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  11. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    At the time of arrival of these tribes in India, there seemed to be a parallel way of thought already existing in Bharat, this parallel way of thought was more closely related with the concept of "Hindu", way of life and "Idol Worship". One example that can be seen is the concept of Hindu god "Shiva", whose existence seems to be emerging from south of India or already existing way of thought.

    Whereas, the Aryan tribe gods do not seem to be have an "Idol existence". These gods were parts of elements of nature which always seem to be omnipresent with the lives of these tribes where ever they went.
    Friend,

    Would it not be better if the growth of religion and religious thought is taken up only after the issue of antiquity of the vedas has been discussed; and, at least, some tentative conclusions have been arrived.

    Thanks.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  12. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Would it not be better if the growth of religion and religious thought is taken up only after the issue of antiquity of the vedas has been discussed; and, at least, some tentative conclusions have been arrived.

    Thanks.
    Some facts can be derived from religious thoughts:

    A simple example is the "interpretation of Seal of Shiva, found in mohanjodaro", when i say " interpretation ", it basically means, it is not certain that this seal is of or depicts "Shiva". Some people think, it is image of Shiva.
    This thought could arise from religious ideologies, who try to give idol form to so called Godly figures.
    On the other hand, if we look closely to this seal, it shows a human figure. The facial features of this image do not match with south India people or other tribes of of India rather the facial features are more North Western India and more north beyond that area.
    If u look closely to what he wears at the head, it is very tribal in nature, shows two horns on both sides and lot of animals from the nature.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shiva_Pashupati.jpg

    In India religious identities have mixed up facts with mythologies, folklores and other imaginary things to suit to their needs and identities. Therefore antiquity of any thought can only be ascertained by deriving it source. For deriving its source one has to explore other things like religions, history, people, etc.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; August 18th, 2013 at 10:53 AM.

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  14. #9
    There is an image of Buffalo in this seal but the attire worn by the human figure is again tribal in nature, this raises few questions:

    1. Where there any buffaloes rearing done out of Indian subcontinent in pre harrapan times?
    2. Maybe this is a wild buffalo.
    3.Or it could also be a different variety of cow, such as this or some extinct breed of cow: http://www.tehelka.com/the-desi-cow-almost-extinct/

  15. #10
    On the antiquity of Rig Veda:

    In point of time and even in point of literary development Rig Veda is the oldest of all other books and the earliest depository of Aryan faith. The hymns, indeed, throw a strong light on the original articles of belief of humanity itself. The Yajus, the Saman, and the Atharvan presuppose the Rik; and the anteriority of the Rik to the Brahmans is proved not only by the allusions which are made to the former by the latter, but also by the words and phrases employed in the hymns themselves.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  16. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    On the antiquity of Rig Veda:

    In point of time and even in point of literary development Rig Veda is the oldest of all other books and the earliest depository of Aryan faith. The hymns, indeed, throw a strong light on the original articles of belief of humanity itself. The Yajus, the Saman, and the Atharvan presuppose the Rik; and the anteriority of the Rik to the Brahmans is proved not only by the allusions which are made to the former by the latter, but also by the words and phrases employed in the hymns themselves.

    Thanks, for the new word "allusions": Never came across this word before.

    The point is that the Vedas that you are talking about came into existence after the original Aryan tribes connected with Brahmanical way of life.
    Any big religion like "Hindu religion" always tries to absorb newer identities and thoughts into it.

    The point is:

    Existence of Aryan tribes predates many cultures like Harappa, etc. present in their physical archaeological form of today. This also means the so called Hymns must have predated these civilizations, because Hymns have existed in human life as long as humans have existed in one form or other. Rather most of the Hymns connect with elements of nature, so that can also mean, that these Hymns could have existed way before human started settling in cities. Therefore the exact date and antiquity of hymns in present context is a question of faith rather then a question over a fact.
    The facts on the other hand get modified through scientific and archaeological discoveries.

    To be straight forward, people who were born and studied in eastern part of the world have not embarked on scientific and archaeological discoveries as done in other parts of the world, therefore most of the talk and comments just remain in the realm of faith rather then facts.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; August 18th, 2013 at 10:27 PM.

  17. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Thanks, for the new word "allusions": Never came across this word before.

    The point is that the Vedas that you are talking about came into existence after the original Aryan tribes connected with Brahmanical way of life.
    Any big religion always tries to absorb newer identities and thoughts into it.

    The point is:

    Existence of Aryan tribes predates many cultures like Harappa, etc. present in their physical archaeological form of today. This also means the so called Hymns must have predated these civilizations, because Hymns have existed in human life as long as humans have existed in one form or other. Rather most of the Hymns connect with elements of nature, so that can also mean, that these Hymns could have existed way before human started settling in cities. Therefore the exact date and antiquity of hymns in present context is a question of faith rather then a question over a fact.
    The facts on the other hand get modified through scientific and archaeological discoveries.

    To be straight forward, people who were born and studied in eastern part of the world have not embarked on scientific and archaeological discoveries as done in other parts of the world, therefore most of the talk and comments just remain in the realm of faith rather then facts.
    Friend,

    Kindly let us know what do you want to say on the antiquity of the Vedas; and also, please say it in simple and straight forward language so that it could be understood by all.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  18. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Kindly let us know what do you want to say on the antiquity of the Vedas; and also, please say it in simple and straight forward language so that it could be understood by all.

    Thanks
    In the context of language that can be understood by all, I recently read that Buddha's discourses were in Pali so that they could be easily understood by all whereas the brahminical discourses were in Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few. Buddha's approach resulted in him getting access to more and more people.

  19. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    In the context of language that can be understood by all, I recently read that Buddha's discourses were in Pali so that they could be easily understood by all whereas the brahminical discourses were in Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few. Buddha's approach resulted in him getting access to more and more people.
    Rightly said, Pali as a language was indegenous to Indian mainland. Buddhism again took a form of religion, therefore to spread a new thought or way of life such as Buddhism,,,, a native or local language is the easiest way to spread information about the religion.

  20. #15
    Rajpal ji, I totally agree. We have got such a rich past with all the literature/texts. And above all it dates back to a time when the present day westeners lived in caves/mud dwellings. We should not let it disappear from our lives and make all efforts possible that we not only protect our heritage but also pass it down to the future generations.

    At the same time, we have got to be careful. These days anyone saying anything about Hinduism or any Hindu scriptures is termed COMMUNAL!

  21. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    In the context of language that can be understood by all, I recently read that Buddha's discourses were in Pali so that they could be easily understood by all whereas the brahminical discourses were in Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few. Buddha's approach resulted in him getting access to more and more people.
    About comparative study on the Buddhism and Vedic literature is not the theme of discussion at this stage under the thread.

    Perhaps, the question was about the antiquity of Vedas not on their language as the relevant post reproduced conveyed:

    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Kindly let us know what do you want to say on the antiquity of the Vedas; and also, please say it in simple and straight forward language so that it could be understood by all.

    Thanks

    Nonetheless, good post on one of the reasons of the popularity of Buddhism.

    Thanks and regards,
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; August 20th, 2013 at 09:22 AM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  22. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    In the context of language that can be understood by all, I recently read that Buddha's discourses were in Pali so that they could be easily understood by all whereas the brahminical discourses were in Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few. Buddha's approach resulted in him getting access to more and more people.

    "Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few": This is what has been taught and told to us.

    The point is, history as written and taught to people is/was based on localized knowledge in past and even in present day scenario, a simple example is " Do u know there were cities in ancient central asia, which dated back to the same time period as Harrapa and Mohanjodaro", earlier we did not know it and even if people knew it, it was known in local circles and not through out the world. Now due to the age of IT, entire concept of how we perceive and understand information has changed.
    You can now see, that there were cities in ancient past through out the world. Therefore saying that "Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few" seems to be a dictated concept based on localized information, folklore, mythologies and such information is often used by influential people and influential identities such as religion and in real sense India has never been able to come out of grip of religion and look towards a scientific way of life.

    Therefore ""Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few" does not seem to be true. According to scholars Sanskrit is associated with "Aryan" people and existence of such people ("Aryan") also have roots in central Asian and other places in the world, so how is it possible that this language was associated with only "selected few"? This statement does not seem to hold true, although it can be dictated by force and power in any form by a person or an identity such as religion.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; August 20th, 2013 at 08:26 PM.

  23. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    "Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few": This is what has been taught and told to us.

    The point is, history as written and taught to people was based on localized knowledge, a simple example is " Do u know there were cities in ancient central asia, which dated back to the same time period as Harrapa and Mohanjodara", earlier we did not know it and even if people knew it, it was known in local circles and not through out the world. Now due to the age of IT, entire concept of how we perceive and understand information has changed.
    You can now see, that there were cities in ancient past through out the world. Therefore saying that "Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few" seems to be a dictated concept based on localized information, folklore, mythologies and such information is often used by influential people and in real sense India has never been able to come out of grip of religion.

    Therefore ""Sanskrit, a language reserved for selected few" does not seem to be true. Sanskrit is associated with "Aryan" people and existence of such people("Aryan") also have roots in central Asian and other places in the world, so how is it possible that this language was associated with only "selected few"? This statement does not seem to hold true, although it can be dictated by force and power in any form as a person or an identity such as religion wants.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Central_Asia

    http://discovermagazine.com/2006/nov...n#.UhMMXNLfAZg

  24. #19
    Friends,

    It would be fruitful discussion if we concentrate on the topic of the thread and do not derail it by messing up other aspects of history.

    Thanks.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  25. #20
    I believe, some of the concepts mentioned in Hindu scriptures are much older than the scriptures themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    Kindly let us know what do you want to say on the antiquity of the Vedas; and also, please say it in simple and straight forward language so that it could be understood by all.

    Thanks

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