MBh: 18.5.31 -Originally Posted by nrao
पुण्यॊ ऽयम इतिहासाख्यः पवित्रं चेदम उत्तमम
कृष्णेन मुनिना विप्र नियतं सत्यवादिना
Called a history, it is sacred, sanctifying and excellent. It has been composed by the ascetic Krishna, O Brahmana, of truthful speech.
18.5.42-43 -
42 - नारदॊ ऽशरावयद देवान असितॊ देवलः पितॄन
रक्षॊयक्षाञ शुकॊ मर्त्यान वैशम्पायन एव तु
43 - इतिहासम इमं पुण्यं महार्थं वेद संमितम
शरावयेद यस तु वर्णांस तरीन कृत्वा बराह्मणम अग्रतः
Narada recited the Mahabharata to the gods; Asita-Devala to the Pitris; Suka to the Rakshasas and the Yakshas; and Vaishampayana to human beings. This history is sacred, and of high import, and regarded as equal to the Vedas. That man, O Saunaka, who hears this history, placing a Brahmana before him, acquires both fame and the fruition of all his wishes.
- Naveen Rao
The sacredness and importance of History equal to Vedas is alright; but it is to be noted that
original epic Jaya known as Mahabharata was composed by Maharishi Vyas Vaishampayana as contemporary history immediately after the Bharata battle and was not "composed by the ascetic Krishna."
The references quoted here seem to be interpolation to the original epic by latter authors/editors of the Epic to impose Brahmanic supremacy on the knowledge as they prescribed pre condition before the listener of Mahabharata/Itihas of ''placing a Brahmana before him'' to ''acquire both fame and the fruition of all his wishes''.
This twisting of facts and monopoly of knowledge in the hands of a few by vested interests led to more disastrous impact on Indian society than the Bharata battle itself !!!
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
Phir jaldi kar di. I provided those quotes just to show that word 'itihasa' does occur in MBh and is referred to as such.
Agar poora slok padhain to is prakar se hai:
26 [सूत]
एतच छरुत्वा दविजश्रेष्ठात स राजा जनमेजयः
विस्मितॊ ऽभवद अत्यर्थं यज्ञकर्मान्तरेष्व अथ
27 ततः समापयाम आसुः कर्म तत तस्य याजकाः
आस्तीकश चाभवत परीतः परिमॊक्ष्य भुजंगमान
28 ततॊ दविजातीन सर्वांस तान दक्षिणाभिर अतॊषयत
पूजिताश चापि ते राज्ञा ततॊ जग्मुर यथागतम
29 विसर्जयित्वा विप्रांस तान राजापि जनमेजयः
ततस तक्षशिलायाः स पुनर आयाद गजाह्वयम
30 एतत ते सर्वम आख्यातं वैशम्पायन कीर्तितम
वयासाज्ञया समाख्यातं सर्पसत्त्रे नृपस्य ह
31 पुण्यॊ ऽयम इतिहासाख्यः पवित्रं चेदम उत्तमम
कृष्णेन मुनिना विप्र नियतं सत्यवादिना
32 सर्वज्ञेन विधिज्ञेन धर्मज्ञानवता सता
अतीन्द्रियेण शुचिना तपसा भावितात्मना
33 ऐश्वर्ये वर्तता चैव सांख्ययॊगविदा तथा
नैकतन्त्र विबुद्धेन दृष्ट्वा दिव्येन चक्षुषा
34 कीर्तिं परथयता लॊके पाण्डवानां महात्मनाम
अन्येषां कषत्रियाणां च भूरि दरविण तेजसाम
35 य इदं शरावयेद विद्वान सदा पर्वणि पर्वणि
धूतपाप्मा जितस्वर्गॊ बरह्मभूयाय गच्छति
36 यश चेदं शरावयेच छराद्धे बराह्मणान पादम अन्ततः
अक्षय्यम अन्नपानं वै पितॄंस तस्यॊपतिष्ठते
37 अह्ना यद एनः कुरुते इन्द्रियैर मनसापि वा
महाभारतम आख्याय पश्चात संध्यां परमुच्यते
38 धर्मे चार्थे च कामे च मॊक्षे च भरतर्षभ
यद इहास्ति तद अन्यत्र यन नेहास्ति न तत कव चित
39 यजॊ नामेतिहासॊ ऽयं शरॊतव्यॊ भूतिम इच्छता
रज्ञा राजसुतैश चापि गर्भिण्या चैव यॊषिता
40 सवर्गकामॊ लभेत सवर्गं जय कामॊ लभेज जयम
गर्भिणी लभते पुत्रं कन्यां वा बहु भागिनीम
41 अनागतं तरिभिर वर्षैः कृष्णद्वैपायनः परभुः
संदर्भं भारतस्यास्य कृतवान धर्मकाम्यया
42 नारदॊ ऽशरावयद देवान असितॊ देवलः पितॄन
रक्षॊयक्षाञ शुकॊ मर्त्यान वैशम्पायन एव तु
"...
Sauti said: Hearing this, ye foremost of regenerate ones, at the intervals of sacrificial rites, king Janamejaya became filled with wonder. The sacrificial priests then finished the rites that remained to be gone through. Astika, having rescued the snakes (from fiery death), became filled with joy. King Janamejaya then gratified all the vipr with copious presents. Thus rewarded by the king, they returned to their respective abodes. Having dismissed those vipr, king Janamejaya came back from Takshasila to the city named after the elephant.
I have now told everything that Vaishampayana narrated, at the command of Vyasa, unto the king at his snake sacrifice. Called a history, it is sacred, sanctifying and excellent. It has been composed by the ascetic Krishna, O Brahmana, of truthful speech. He is omniscient, conversant with all ordinances, possessed of a knowledge of all duties, endued with piety, capable of perceiving what is beyond the ken of the senses, pure, having a soul cleansed by penances, possessed of the six high attributes, and devoted to Sankhya Yoga. He has composed this, beholding everything with a celestial eye that has been cleansed (strengthened) by varied lore. He has done this, desiring to spread the fame, throughout the world, of the high-souled Pandavas, as also of other Kshatriyas possessed of abundant wealth of energy.
That learned man who recites this history of sacred days in the midst of a listening auditory becomes cleansed of every sin, conquers Heaven, and attains to the status of Brahma. Of that man who listens with rapt attention to the recitation of the whole of this Veda composed by (the Island-born) Krishna, a million sins, are washed off. The Pitris of that man who recites even a small portion of this history at a Sraddha, obtain inexhaustible food and drink. The sins that one commits during the day by one’s senses or the mind are all washed off before evening by reciting a portion of the Mahabharata.
The high race of the Bharatas is its topic. Hence it is called Bharata. And because of its grave import, as also of the Bharatas being its topic, it is called Mahabharata. He who is versed in interpretations of this great treatise, becomes cleansed of every sin. Such a man lives in righteousness, wealth, and pleasure, and attains to Emancipation also, O chief of Bharata’s race.
That which occurs here occurs elsewhere. That which does not occur here occurs nowhere else. This history is known by the name of Jaya. It should be heard by every one desirous of Emancipation. It should be read by Brahmanas, by kings, and by women quick with children. He that desires Heaven attains to Heaven; and he that desires victory attains to victory. The woman quick with child gets either a son or a daughter highly blessed. The puissant Island-born Krishna, who will not have to come back, and who is Emancipation incarnate, made an abstract of the Bharata, moved by the desire of aiding the cause of righteousness. He made another compilation consisting of many verses. Many of verses were placed in the region of the deities. In the region of the Pitris, it should be known, many verses are current; while in that of the Yakshas many more are in vogue. One lakh is current among human beings.
Narada recited the Mahabharata to the gods; Asita-Devala to the Pitris; Suka to the Rakshasas and the Yakshas; and Vaishampayana to human beings. This history is sacred, and of high import, and regarded as equal to the Vedas.
..."
I agree that there are many late additions which could be quite biased as well. But at the same time, we know that MBh has itihasa (history) at its core. Due to late additions is also classified as a kavya (epic). I think that it is quite well known.
Last edited by nrao; May 13th, 2013 at 11:08 AM.
- Naveen Rao
How does your comment noted in the quote relate to what I have said above :
What do you want to convey by using this phrase. What sort of haste do you find in it when I have already accepted that Itihas and its sacredness has been recognised in MBT.
The long quote given by you in your post under reference further cements my conviction that it is very late manipulated version of original Itihas authored by Vyas ji as it contains inner evidence that it is a late composition, after the Brahmanism had revived, perhaps, during the Gupta period.
My dear friend it is not Jaya of Vyas to which you are referring to but a newer and bigger compilation containing one lac verses.
The name of the newer compiler is also given in the last para of your quote i.e. ''The puissant Island-born Krishna.
The description given in the post is self explanatory that it deals with ritualism and to make its authenticity more acceptable to Hindus, the name of the compiler has been invoked as: The Puissant Island-born Krishna.
The Jaya by Vyas was a concise and brief narrative of the contemporary History of Mahabharata/Bharata battle only
but the present Epic Mahabharata deals with so many other myths, mythical stories, rituals and so on.
It would be good if you enlighten us as to who this Puissant Island Born Krishna was, and what is his timeline? Was he alive when the Snake Sacrifice or Taxaka battle occur about which first few verses of your quote refer to.
Thanks
Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; May 13th, 2013 at 04:04 PM.
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.
Lakin Sir....
Birth and shadi ke records "bhaath" rukhte the, aaj bhi rukhte hain... or aa kar humare poorvajo ke naam bhi batate hain gaane gaa kar... or marne ke records gangaji par "pande" rukhte hain...
maine bhaath or pando se data le kar apna family tree bhi banaya hai... mugjhe bahot peedhi piche tak ka data mila hai unse...
Last edited by sanjeev1984; May 13th, 2013 at 04:30 PM.
H.O.D. (Dept. of Common Sense)
मेरा यह विचार है -
Island born Krishna is Krishna Dvaipayana Vyas, referring to of course Vyas who was probably born on or came from an island of lake Dvaipayana, the composer of first version of Mahabharat, the Jaya, which is referred as itihasa. Krishna Dvaipayana Vyas was probably around during the rendition at the yagya at Taxshila by king Janamejaya, not sure if he was physically present, and my quotes above show dialogue between Ugrasrava Sauti or Shri Suta and listener sage Saunaka, who refers to Vaishampayana, first narrator of the text after its composition by Vyas.
Incidentally, Lake Dvaipayana is made famous as the final futile attempt by Duryodhan to hide in it after loosing the battle but is soon discovered and killed by Bhim.
So Vyas's composition probably should be considered as the first composition of events as they happened at the victory (Jaya) in the battle of Kurukshetra, hence it is called Itihasa or history. At Taxshila, the rendition of Jaya and addition of text by Vaishampayana is probably the creation of the text known as Bharata which probably is also known as itihasa. I think Vyas was still alive during this first narration by Vaishampayana. Last addition was probably done by Ugrasrava Sauti and the group, where numerous poetic additions were made to create what we now know as the 'first final form' of Mahabharat which got categorized as a kavya (epic). It seems that praises and adulations of brahmins were made during this phase and may not be part of itihasa but that of kavya. I also think that even more additions have happened at later times. Well known example are references to Hun in one of the parv representing 5-6th century CE additions.
An interesting thing is that this tradition of narration or rendition of epic text still carries on in present day India in limited form. Two examples that come to mind are सुन्दर कान्ड पाठ और भागवत पाठ which are organized quite often.
Last edited by nrao; May 15th, 2013 at 11:29 AM.
- Naveen Rao
urmiladuhan (August 11th, 2013)
Record keeping requires writing items which are perishable or else have an age. Palm leaf documents have survived almost 1000 years and some of them can be seen in museums of Orissa etc. Cloth again has limited shelf life unless specific precautions are taken such as keeping away from dust and humidity. The climate of India being tropical, allows for quick disintegration of organic matter. Caves in Tibet region (Buddhist caves) has preserved some of the finest written documents and cloth work dating near mauryan times because of cool and dry weather conditions.
That is an excellent idea i.e., for each village to have a village museum. I suppose the panchayat can help in this matter.
QUOTE=rkumar;337385]Much might be known about the history of kings, but very little is known about local village history. Its all vague. Very few of us know when our village was founded and who were the first settlers. Very few of us know about our own 5-6 generation details. I have seen old beautiful houses being demolished to build new box like ones. Old artistc doors thrown out. Antique wooden box of grand mother finding no place in house. Gone is gone. At least at personal level we should start saving old artifacts of the family and keep them in some sort of family museum. May be each village has a small museum where village artifacts can be kept safely. Do our kids know how Mussal and Okhli used to look like? Do they know how our grand mother used to spin and make bundles of cotton thread? Most of the home and agriculture tools of even my generation are gone. Very few kids know how the "rahat" used to look like. Culture of "Panghat" has disappeared along with "Dole and Naijju".[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=DrRajpalSingh;343984]You mean to say that no written records of Vedic literature were available in India prior to commencement of the Gupta dynasty i.e. 320 A
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Dr Rajpal, D. The Ramayana, Mahabharata and other scriptures, kalidas's work etc were written during Gupta period (approximately). Before that oral means were used to transmit the religious traditions. Oral transmissionas was the tradition and not via written form. This is what I have learnt. If you doubt it, Dr. Rajpal, perhaps you have evidence that the religious scriptures were existing in written form during B.C.E.
swaich (August 12th, 2013)
urmiladuhan (November 10th, 2013)
[QUOTE=urmiladuhan;352181]A lot of documents relating to Harappa civilization are available. Does that mean they were written during Harappa times?
That is the point.''
Yes, They were but yet to be deciphered !
History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.