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Thread: Some Pre-Epic Period Tribes

  1. #1

    Some Pre-Epic Period Tribes

    In this thread we shall try to identify and enlist names of those tribes which find mention in the ancient literature prior to the composition of the Epics: Ramayana and Mahabharata..

    As we go through the pages of Vedic literature several names of persons Royal or Risi also appear on whose names later on several gotra or sub caste names of Indian castes seem to have developed. At times, the name of a particular Risi appears representing gotra/sub caste/clan name of numerous castes of today. This is a perplexing phenomenon, not understandable to an un-attentive reader of evolvement of Indian social structure and hierarchy.

    It is hoped that participants would contribute their reasoned views on this aspect of our past social evolution and its impacts on the course of history of India.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  2. #2
    1.

    'Puru' Tribe and their king find mention in Rig Veda [I.108.8; vii.18.23; vii. 8.4 and so on]. According to Macdonell and Keith, the victories of the Purus over the aborigines seem to be referred to in several passages of Rig Veda, The great kings of the Purus were Purukutsa and his son Trasadasyu, whose name bears testimony to his prowess against aboriginal foes, while a later prince was Trksi Trasadasyava. Trisdasyava, the patronymic of Kurusravana in Rigaveda [X.33.4], shows that the royal families of teh Kurus and the Purus were allied by inter-marriage. [ cited from Vedic Index of Names and places, pp. 11-12]
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    1.

    'Puru' Tribe and their king find mention in Rig Veda [I.108.8; vii.18.23; vii. 8.4 and so on]. According to Macdonell and Keith, the victories of the Purus over the aborigines seem to be referred to in several passages of Rig Veda, The great kings of the Purus were Purukutsa and his son Trasadasyu, whose name bears testimony to his prowess against aboriginal foes, while a later prince was Trksi Trasadasyava. Trisdasyava, the patronymic of Kurusravana in Rigaveda [X.33.4], shows that the royal families of teh Kurus and the Purus were allied by inter-marriage. [ cited from Vedic Index of Names and places, pp. 11-12]
    However, they are mentioned as enemies of the Tristsus in the hymn of Sudas victory [RV 18.13]; and in hymn [RV. VII. 8.4] of the Bharatas is celebrated as victories over the Purus probably a reference to the decisive overthrow.

    Regarding their earliest home there is difference of opinion among the historians. Zimmer of the view that they lived on the banks of Sindhu river and MacDonell and Keith are of the view that they are referred to be living in indian Sarasvati region. However, in c.326-325 BCE, two Paurarva Princes were met by the Greek Invader, Alexander at the Hydepasses as recorded by Arrian.

    Thus their original place of living was whether in the region beyond Indus or Sarasvati Region is a matter of dispute.

    Views of the readers are solicited.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  4. #4
    According to Macdonell and Keith, "Yadu is the name of a tribe and of the king of the tribe.

    They are mentioned repeatedly in the Rigveda, normally in conjunction with Turvasa.

    They seem to have taken part in the great battle against Sudas: the Yadu and Turvasa kings

    seem to have escaped with their lives, while the Anu and the Druhyu kings perished.''

    {For References from Rigveda, kindly see, Vedic Index of names and subjects, Vol. II, p. 185}.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  5. #5
    3,

    The Bharatas, who gave their name to the whole country, are one of the prominent Rigvedic Tribes.

    They appear prominently in the Rigveda in relationship with Sudas and the Tristsus, and are enemies

    of the Purus. They are mentioned as warriors who carried out successful campaigns both against

    the Aryans on the west and the non-Aryans in East.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  6. #6
    Das, Dasyu, Danava, Arya and Anarya-- these four words appear frequently in the ancient literature of India and some of these words find place at a few places in Iranian literature too. It would be interesting to know their real meaning to exactly understand the ancient social structure and tribes of India. Could somebody throw some light on their meaning !!!!
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  7. #7
    .

    Maharishi Dayanand defines the two words as under. If we go by this definition, Arya and Dasyu were not a caste but a category of persons having some traits.

    ४० आर्य्य
    जो श्रेष्*ठ स्वभाव, धर्मात्मा, परोपकारी, सत्यविद्यादि गुणयुक्त और आर्य्यावर्त्त देश में सब दिन से रहने वाले हैं, उनको 'आर्य्य' कहते हैं ।


    ४२ दस्यु
    अनार्य अर्थात् जो अनाड़ी, आर्य्यों के स्वभाव और निवास से पृथक् डाकू, चोर, हिंसक कि जो दुष्*ट मनुष्य है, वह 'दस्यु' कहाता है ।

    आर्य्योद्देश्यरत्*नमाला (महर्षि दयानन्द सरस्वती द्वारा रचित लघुग्रंथ)

    .
    तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय

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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    According to Macdonell and Keith, "Yadu is the name of a tribe and of the king of the tribe.

    They are mentioned repeatedly in the Rigveda, normally in conjunction with Turvasa.

    They seem to have taken part in the great battle against Sudas: the Yadu and Turvasa kings

    seem to have escaped with their lives, while the Anu and the Druhyu kings perished.''

    {For References from Rigveda, kindly see, Vedic Index of names and subjects, Vol. II, p. 185}.

    How old is the written form of "Veda" present today?
    I hope u do not tell me that it was work of "Gods" and "Gods wrote it".
    how many kings have ruled after the "oldest form of Veda" present today, was written?
    How many priests have read it and rewritten it?
    How many of the writers and re writers of these Vedas and similar books were driven by greed, self appraisal and false information.
    I am not doubting the folk lore written in "Vedas", but the main point is: Through out ages any book written by a single human or group of humans has been transformed from its original form by the people who inherited these books, whosoever that be, where ever they were in the world. So, it becomes very precarious to believe the old texts.
    What can be believed are the physical facts, which verify facts in present day scenario, this can bring people out of darkness.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; July 11th, 2013 at 06:34 PM.

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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Das, Dasyu, Danava, Arya and Anarya-- these four words appear frequently in the ancient literature of India and some of these words find place at a few places in Iranian literature too. It would be interesting to know their real meaning to exactly understand the ancient social structure and tribes of India. Could somebody throw some light on their meaning !!!!
    Your take???

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  13. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    .

    Maharishi Dayanand defines the two words as under. If we go by this definition, Arya and Dasyu were not a caste but a category of persons having some traits.

    ४० आर्य्य
    जो श्रेष्*ठ स्वभाव, धर्मात्मा, परोपकारी, सत्यविद्यादि गुणयुक्त और आर्य्यावर्त्त देश में सब दिन से रहने वाले हैं, उनको 'आर्य्य' कहते हैं ।


    ४२ दस्यु
    अनार्य अर्थात् जो अनाड़ी, आर्य्यों के स्वभाव और निवास से पृथक् डाकू, चोर, हिंसक कि जो दुष्*ट मनुष्य है, वह 'दस्यु' कहाता है ।

    आर्य्योद्देश्यरत्*नमाला (महर्षि दयानन्द सरस्वती द्वारा रचित लघुग्रंथ)

    .
    This is a good definition given by Swamiji in the context of nineteenth century meaning of the two terms when there was evident differentiation between the ways of life and beliefs of Aryans and non-Aryans. Therefore it seems that contemporary scenario has coloured the meaning of the ancient words, which might have carried other meanings and connotations too than the meanings shown here.

    If it were so ! Were the words Arya and Anarya used to convey the meaning of different tribes or not in the ancient times and were these two members of the same tribe having beliefs in the same gods or deities and did they really lived away apart from each other or together in the days when the old literature was composed ! These were the questions which haunted my mind when I put the post under discussion.

    More inputs invited please to solve the puzzle of meaning of these terms Arya-Anarya, Arya-Das-Danava-Dashyu as used in the old literature.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  14. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    Your take???
    I am in the process of learning from literature and discussion with scholars; hence no personal 'take' as of now.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  16. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    .

    Maharishi Dayanand defines the two words as under. If we go by this definition, Arya and Dasyu were not a caste but a category of persons having some traits.

    ४० आर्य्य
    जो श्रेष्*ठ स्वभाव, धर्मात्मा, परोपकारी, सत्यविद्यादि गुणयुक्त और आर्य्यावर्त्त देश में सब दिन से रहने वाले हैं, उनको 'आर्य्य' कहते हैं ।


    ४२ दस्यु
    अनार्य अर्थात् जो अनाड़ी, आर्य्यों के स्वभाव और निवास से पृथक् डाकू, चोर, हिंसक कि जो दुष्*ट मनुष्य है, वह 'दस्यु' कहाता है ।

    आर्य्योद्देश्यरत्*नमाला (महर्षि दयानन्द सरस्वती द्वारा रचित लघुग्रंथ)

    .
    as per swami ji definition for arya ..mujhe yeh samajh nahi aaya ki ek desh(aryavart) main rahne waale sabhi log itne achee kaise ho sakte hai( dharmatma, paropkari etc).........mujhe lagta hai swami ji ne vedo ka translation kuch jyada hi generalize kar rakha ahi...
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  18. #13
    If anyone is willing to search historical facts from vedas...don't go for swami ji translation...kuch jyada hi "arya waadi" hain unka translation..........i see lot of difference in his translation and other scholars translations...........
    Become more and more innocent, less knowledgeable and more childlike. Take life as fun - because that's precisely what it is!

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  20. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Das, Dasyu, Danava, Arya and Anarya-- these four words appear frequently in the ancient literature of India and some of these words find place at a few places in Iranian literature too. It would be interesting to know their real meaning to exactly understand the ancient social structure and tribes of India. Could somebody throw some light on their meaning !!!!
    It is learnt from Rig Veda [1.51.5] that Dasas or Dasyus, the dark skinned persons, were the enemies of Indra !

    But who these dark-skinned Dasas or Dasyus were is not fully clarified.

    The word dasyu is reported to be occurring in the form of dainyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings.

    { Note: The meaning or connotation of the word Dahyu would be taken up separately later on}.

    The Avestan word dasyu or its variant dasa does not connote a people ethnically different from the so-called Aryans. This is ascertainable from the study of Rig Veda that Agni is called the grandson of Tvastr and Indra is known as his son. In this way Indra and Vrtra is expressly called a Dasyu. When Indra was moving in pursuit of Vrtra, he addressed Agni and Soma, "Ye belong to me and I belong to you. Why do ye support that Dasyu against me? Come over to me." {Julius Eggling, Sacred Books of the East, Vo. XII, p. 166}.

    In this way Vrtra is Dasyu. Indra is the brother of Vrtra, both being the sons of Tvastr.

    Buddha Prakash very candidly sums up the issue by saying that from this point of view , Indra is also Dasyu. Agni and Indra are admittedly Aryas. Hence, there is no ethnic difference between a Dasyu and an Arya. he goes on to quote a verse of the Rig Veda (X.49. 3 ) Indra is made to state that he had deprived the Dasyus of their appellation of Arya: "As Susna's slayer I brandished the dart of death : I gave up not the Arya name to Dasyu foes."

    The above discussion shows that there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.

    Views of participants are welcome.

    Thanks and regards.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  22. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by prashantacmet View Post
    If anyone is willing to search historical facts from vedas...don't go for swami ji translation...kuch jyada hi "arya waadi" hain unka translation..........i see lot of difference in his translation and other scholars translations...........
    Thanks Prashant, who can we refer to if interested in reading Vedas?
    जिंदगी पथ है मंजिल की तरफ जाने का,
    जिंदगी नाम है तूफानों से टकराने का.
    मौत तो बस चैन से सो जाने की बदनामी है,
    जिंदगी गीत है मस्ती से सदा गाने का..

  23. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    It is learnt from Rig Veda [1.51.5] that Dasas or Dasyus, the dark skinned persons, were the enemies of Indra !

    But who these dark-skinned Dasas or Dasyus were is not fully clarified.

    The word dasyu is reported to be occurring in the form of dainyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings.

    { Note: The meaning or connotation of the word Dahyu would be taken up separately later on}.

    The Avestan word dasyu or its variant dasa does not connote a people ethnically different from the so-called Aryans. This is ascertainable from the study of Rig Veda that Agni is called the grandson of Tvastr and Indra is known as his son. In this way Indra and Vrtra is expressly called a Dasyu. When Indra was moving in pursuit of Vrtra, he addressed Agni and Soma, "Ye belong to me and I belong to you. Why do ye support that Dasyu against me? Come over to me." {Julius Eggling, Sacred Books of the East, Vo. XII, p. 166}.

    In this way Vrtra is Dasyu. Indra is the brother of Vrtra, both being the sons of Tvastr.

    Buddha Prakash very candidly sums up the issue by saying that from this point of view , Indra is also Dasyu. Agni and Indra are admittedly Aryas. Hence, there is no ethnic difference between a Dasyu and an Arya. he goes on to quote a verse of the Rig Veda (X.49. 3 ) Indra is made to state that he had deprived the Dasyus of their appellation of Arya: "As Susna's slayer I brandished the dart of death : I gave up not the Arya name to Dasyu foes."

    The above discussion shows that there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.

    Views of participants are welcome.

    Thanks and regards.


    And your take ???


    Are you in complete agreement with Buddha Parkash view on various Vedic tribes ?
    Last edited by narenderkharb; July 12th, 2013 at 07:04 AM.

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  25. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    It is learnt from Rig Veda [1.51.5] that Dasas or Dasyus, the dark skinned persons, were the enemies of Indra !

    But who these dark-skinned Dasas or Dasyus were is not fully clarified.

    The word dasyu is reported to be occurring in the form of dainyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings.

    { Note: The meaning or connotation of the word Dahyu would be taken up separately later on}.

    The above discussion shows that there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.

    Views of participants are welcome.

    Thanks and regards.

    It will be interesting to understand the relation of Dasyu /Dainyu/Dapyu in rigvedic and avestan literature.These terms have been used interchangeably for the same people ...However Dapyu at the same time could be understood as Davyu that takes it closer to devas (v in Rigvedic literature changes to P in Avestan as Asva to Aspa) and that means Daivyu(Sanskrit) is equivalent Daipyu(avestan)which in turn relate with Dasyu...
    So ..Does that mean Deva Dasyu are just the same people who settled in different areas and developed linguistic differences over the years?

    We can discuss this but first let us understand the meaning and connotation of word Dasyu.
    Last edited by narenderkharb; July 12th, 2013 at 07:01 AM.

  26. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    And your take ???


    Are you in complete agreement with Buddha Parkash view on various Vedic tribes ?
    Friend,

    As of now, I have concentrated my attention to understand the meaning of the word Dasa/Dasyu with the help of Rig vedic and Avestan quotes and in the process quoted Buddha Prakash. Therefore, the question of my agreeing or disagreeing with Buddha Prakash's views on various Vedic tribes is not relevant.

    Let us wait as it would come out as the discussion proceeds further whether I agree or not to his all findings on the Tribes !

    I am of the opinion that ''there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.'' and both the words were used interchangeably to describe the same group of people.

    The tinge of superiority and inferiority was associated with these two words [Arya and Dasyu/Dasa] in the later vedic and puranic times.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  27. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post

    Let us wait as it would come out as the discussion proceeds further whether I agree or not to his all findings on the Tribes !

    I am of the opinion that ''there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.'' and both the words were used interchangeably to describe the same group of people.

    The tinge of superiority and inferiority was associated with these two words [Arya and Dasyu/Dasa] in the later vedic and puranic times.

    Thanks

    I have slightly different view here but let the discussion proceed as you wrote above.

  28. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    I have slightly different view here but let the discussion proceed as you wrote above.
    So far as the uses of the words 'Arya' and 'Dasyu' are concerned, they are used in the ethnic sense in the Rigveda. But in post Rig vedic literature which had been composed after the Aryans had arrived in India, the use of the word meaning of 'Arya' changed to denote 'Master.'

    According to Panini (III.1.103) 'Arya' means swami i.e. 'master' as well as 'vaisya'. So when Arya is not used in the sense of 'Vaisya', it denotes the first three varanas i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya--not because they are Aryan in blood, but because they are 'masters', that is to say, 'freemen', and not slaves.

    Thanks.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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