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Thread: Some Pre-Epic Period Tribes

  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    So far as the uses of the words 'Arya' and 'Dasyu' are concerned, they are used in the ethnic sense in the Rigveda. But in post Rig vedic literature which had been composed after the Aryans had arrived in India, the use of the word meaning of 'Arya' changed to denote 'Master.'

    According to Panini (III.1.103) 'Arya' means swami i.e. 'master' as well as 'vaisya'. So when Arya is not used in the sense of 'Vaisya', it denotes the first three varanas i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya--not because they are Aryan in blood, but because they are 'masters', that is to say, 'freemen', and not slaves.

    Thanks.
    contd. from the last post....

    By the time Kautilya authored his book, the meaning of the term Arya and the term Sudra had altogether changed from the initial meaning and had lost attachment to any ethnic significance.

    This is evident from the following passages of Kautilya's Arthsastra [III.13] wherein even a Sudra Freeman is classed as an 'Arya' :

    ''The selling or mortgaging by kinsmen of the life of a Sudra, who is not a born slave, and has not attained majority, but is an Arya in birth, shall be punished, with a fine of 12 panas; of a Vaisya, 24 panas; of a Kshatriya, 36 panas; and of a Brahman, 48 panas. ''
    It is also stated by Kautilya that ''Deceiving a slave of his money or depriving him of the privileges he can exercise as an Arya [Aryabhava] shall be punished with half the fine [levied for enslaving the life of an Arya.''

    ''The offspring of a man who has sold himself as a slave shall be an Arya. A slave shall be entitled to enjoy not only whatever he has earned without prejudice to his master's work, but also the inheritance he has received from his father.''

    ''On paying the value a slave shall regain his Aryahood. The same shall apply either to born or pledged slaves.'' Kautilya, Arthasastra, English Tr. pp. 230-32.

    Of course, this post contains what Panini and Kautilya shed light on the use of the word Arya and the word Dasa; but the initial stage puzzle remains to be solved. Therefore,
    the learned participants are requested to comment on the use of the words as made in Rig Veda and Avesta for the people residing in olden times Aryavarata, as we have not been able to lay our hands on the needed data for the same.

    Thanks
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  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    I have slightly different view here but let the discussion proceed as you wrote above.
    Kindly share your candid opinion on the issue, please !

    Thanks.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Kindly share your candid opinion on the issue, please !

    Thanks.


    I differed with your opinion expressed in post 18 that there was no distinction ethnically between Arya and Dasa in initial stage .

    Since we are going take meaning and connotation of word Dasyu we can elaborate it later on.

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    How old is the written form of "Veda" present today?
    I hope u do not tell me that it was work of "Gods" and "Gods wrote it".
    how many kings have ruled after the "oldest form of Veda" present today, was written?
    How many priests have read it and rewritten it?
    How many of the writers and re writers of these Vedas and similar books were driven by greed, self appraisal and false information.
    I am not doubting the folk lore written in "Vedas", but the main point is: Through out ages any book written by a single human or group of humans has been transformed from its original form by the people who inherited these books, whosoever that be, where ever they were in the world. So, it becomes very precarious to believe the old texts.
    What can be believed are the physical facts, which verify facts in present day scenario, this can bring people out of darkness.
    Good questions.

    Since you want replies to your questions as per your choice as indicated in second line of your post,

    it would be good if you could first share your answers by listing them taking one by one so that the issues raised by you

    become understandable to others too !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  7. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    As of now, I have concentrated my attention to understand the meaning of the word Dasa/Dasyu with the help of Rig vedic and Avestan quotes and in the process quoted Buddha Prakash. Therefore, the question of my agreeing or disagreeing with Buddha Prakash's views on various Vedic tribes is not relevant.

    Let us wait as it would come out as the discussion proceeds further whether I agree or not to his all findings on the Tribes !

    I am of the opinion that ''there was no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Dasa at the initial stage.'' and both the words were used interchangeably to describe the same group of people.

    The tinge of superiority and inferiority was associated with these two words [Arya and Dasyu/Dasa] in the later vedic and puranic times.

    Thanks
    Friends,

    Elaborating the initial connotation of the word ''Dasyu or its variant dasa'' Dr. Buddha Prakash says that it "does not connote a people ethnically different from the so-called Aryans. this conclusion is fortified by the fact that in the Veda, Agni is called the grandson of Tvastr and Indra is known as his son. [see, A A Macdonnell, Vedic Mythology, pp.57, 116].'' He goes on to state that " Vrtra also is a son of Tvastr. Thus Indra and Vrtra are brothers. In the Satpatha Brahmana Vrtra is expressly called a Dasyu. When Indra was moving in pursuit of Vrtra, he addressed Agni and Soma, ''Ye belong to me and I belong to you. Why do ye support that Dasyu against me? Come over to me." Thus Vrtraa is Dassyu. Indra is brother of Vrtra, both being the sons of Tvastr. Therefore, from this point of view, Indra is also Dasyu."

    If we accept this interpretation then there seems no ethnic distinction between the Arya and the Das or Dasyu as described in ancient Sanskrit literature. There seems no harm in accepting this point of view till contrary evidence emerges out of discussion on the issue.

    Thanks.
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  9. #26
    Now it is believed that Suras are gods and Asuras are demons or non gods.

    But this distinction did not obtain in the early Vedic period
    . Originally the deities,

    and especially Varuna and Mitra,were called Asuras, but in the later part of the

    Rig veda
    the term is applied chiefly to the enemies of the gods. In the Atharvaveda,

    as in subsequent Epic literature, the Asuras are simply demons and giants and goblins.

    No conclusive explanation can be offered as to how this remarkable change took place in the course of the centuries embraced by the vedic period.

    Comments of the readers are welcome !!

    Thanks
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  11. #27
    On the issue of change of meaning of the Sura and Asura as god and demon in later Vedic period, Donald A Mackenzie says that "it may have been primarily to sectarian strife between the religious teachers of those tribes which had been influenced by Babylonian modes of thought and those which clung tenaciously to the forms of primitive Aryan nature worship, and perhaps also worship of ancestors [Pitris]. In the old Persian language, which like Greek, places "h' before a vowel where "s" is used in Sanskrit, Ahura (=Asura) signifies ''god''.

    The Zoroastrian chief god is called Ahura-Mazda, ''the wise Lord,'' as Varuna is addressed in early Rigvedic hymns, ''wise Asura and King'', and ''all knowing Asura who established the heavens and fixed the limits of the earth".

    On the other hand ''daeva'' in the Iranian dialect, which is cognate with Sanskrit ''deva'',''god'', came to mean ''demon.''. ''Asura'' is derived from the root ''asu'', ''to shine'', or ''deiwo'', ''heavenly''.

    On other explanations of the issue, your views are invited.
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  13. #28
    On Sun-god, names of Aryan Tribal Chieftains and change of the 'S' into 'H' very interesting details are available in the Journal of Asiatic Society of Bengal, 1911, pp 44-45 which is being produced here from a quote from R.P.Chanda's The Indo Aryan Races, pp.29.30:

    There are strong evidences to show that in the sixteenth and the fifteenth centuries B.C., in Syria and Upper Mesopotamia , there were several colonies of men of Aryan Speech, some of whom at least worshipped Vedic gods. In the cuneiform tablets discovered at Tell-el-Amarna in Upper Egypt containing letters from the tributary Kings of Western Asia to Egyptian Pharaohs we find such Aryan na,es of chieftains:
    “Artamanya, chief of Ziribasani, probably about Basan; Bawarzana or Mawarzana [or perhaps Mayarzana], chief of Hazi, probably to the north of Palestine; Subandhu or Subandi, from Philistaea [cf. S. Subandhu]; Suwardata, the adversary of Abduhiba of Jerusalem, [cf. Svardatta]; Sutana or Suttarna, chief of Musihuma, ,probably in northern Palestine; Yasdata or Wasdata, probably from the neighbourhood of Megidda; Zirdamiasda, probably from Northern Palestine, and so forth.
    The name of the Kassite sun-god Suriaspoints to a similar Aryan element to the east of Babylonia…..
    The names of the Mitani kings are of the same kind. They are Sa-us-sa-tar, Aratama, Suttarna, Dusratta [or Tusratta]; Artassumara [or Artassuwara], and Mattuaza.”


    Regarding the place of language of these names in the Indo-European family Sten Konow observes: “I think that the explanation of these facts has been given by Professor Bloomfield, who considers it possible that the ‘Mitani and other Western Asiatic Iranoid proper names came from a dialect closely allied to Iranian but not yet exactly Iranian, i.e. a dialect which did not change ‘S’ to ‘H’. It seems as if the change of S to H is not so old as the other Iranian characters. It only began after Iranian branch had separated itself from the common Aryan stock and did not at once spread over the whole Iranian area.

    This shows that the change in language of the Aryans of different areas followed after their separation for a long time and they continued to clung to their old customs and traditions in their newer places of abode in later times also.
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  15. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by narenderkharb View Post
    It will be interesting to understand the relation of Dasyu /Dainyu/Dapyu in rigvedic and avestan literature.These terms have been used interchangeably for the same people ...However Dapyu at the same time could be understood as Davyu that takes it closer to devas (v in Rigvedic literature changes to P in Avestan as Asva to Aspa) and that means Daivyu(Sanskrit) is equivalent Daipyu(avestan)which in turn relate with Dasyu...
    So ..Does that mean Deva Dasyu are just the same people who settled in different areas and developed linguistic differences over the years?

    We can discuss this but first let us understand the meaning and connotation of word Dasyu.
    Friend,

    Perhaps the following few quotes could come handy to make the issue somewhat clearer.

    Dr. Budha Prakash in Rigveda and the Indus Civilisation, quotes Sukumar Sen, Old Persian inscriptions, p. 12, writes that " pasava drouga dahyuva vasaiyabavaa uta rarsaiy uta maidaiy uta amiyaxuva dahusuva'', and avers that "the word dasyu occurs in the form of dainyu, dakhyu and dapyu in the Avesta and in that of dahyu in the inscriptions of the Achaemenian kings." he goes on to state: "From this latter form have come the Hindi words deh and dehat meaning ''village' and 'countryside'.''

    Further, it is stated that Meyer and Hillebrandt equate this word with the name of the Dahae, a tribe "nearly akin to the Iranins in the Kirghiz-Turkman steppe, which extends from the Caspian Sea beyond the Jaxartes or Syr Darya." [ cited by Buddha Prakash, E. Meyer, Geschicchte des Altertums, Vol. I, Section 425, p.525; Hillebrandt, Vedische Mythologie, Vol. I, pp. 94-116].

    He goes on to say that ''It appears that the word dahyu or dasyu is an Iranian word meaning a country or a people like Pars or Persia and Mada or Media.

    He further quotes: ''As Jahangir S. Tevadia remarks, "the suggestion that the original meaning of this term [dasyu] was enemy, from which was developed 'enemy people' or 'enemy country', is not convincing, for, in such a case, the phrase aryanam dahyunam, 'of the countries or people of the Aryas', would be very strange in the mouth of the Avestic adorers....I think, the word meant 'people' or 'country' without any bad connotation originally." [Roland G. Kent, Language, XII, p.298].

    It also means that these words were used to denote the same group of people without any sort of differentiation of the people good or bad, friends or foes.

    Nonetheless, I would like to welcome the participants to share their own views or the views of other authors on the issue to make it explicitly clear as to what was the meaning attached to them at the initial stage when these words came into use.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; July 22nd, 2013 at 11:30 PM.
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  17. #30
    Madra denotes a people who have been mentioned in the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad [iii.3,1; 7.1]; Kapya Patanchala was then living among them. Their name appears elsewhere in Vedic literature, only in that branch, the Uttara Madras, the northern Madras, who are referred to in the Aitareya Brahmana as living beyond the Himalayas in the neighbourhood of the Uttara Kurus... The Madras mentioned in the Upanishad were, like the Kurus, probably settled somewhere in Kurukshetra in the Madhya Desa or 'Middle Land.'

    thanks
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  19. #31
    Sigru is the name of a tribe occurring in the passage of the Rig Veda [VII,18,19] in which they are mentioned with the Ajas and the Yaksus as having been defeated by Tritsus and King Sudas.

    But definite identification of the tribe has not been made possible so far, inspite of the fact that many attempts have been made in that direction.

    Have someone come across more information! If yes, kindly share.
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  21. #32
    Yaksu is mentioned once in the singular and once in the plural, in the hymn of the Rig Veda which celebrates Sudas battle with the ten kings. Who they were and what part they played in that conflict is quite uncertain. They see, from the wording of the text, to have taken part in two conflicts with the aid of Ajas and Sigrus, under the leadership of Bheda.
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  23. #33
    Ajas are named in once verse of the Rigveda as having been defeated by the Tritsus under Sudas. They are there mentioned with the Yaksus and Sigrus as a part of confederacy under Bheda against sudas. The tribe name has not been properly identified whether it belonged to Aryan stock or not.
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  25. #34
    Bahlika in the Satapatha Brahmana is applied to the people of the West, of the Punjab.

    They are said to have called Agni by the name of Bhava.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  26. #35
    The readers are requested to add more names

    to the list of the pre Epic times tribes in India.


    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  27. #36
    Pundra [i, 536] is the name of a people regarded as outcastes in the Aitareya Brahmana.

    Their name occurs in the Baudhayana Dharma Sutra and some other sutras also.

    In the Epic their country corresponds with Bengal and Bihar.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  28. #37
    Are the tribes u talk about written on some stone relics from that era? or these are written on paper copies or tree bark? If so, in what time were these written?

    I think the authenticity of these tribes can only be confirmed by archaeological artifacts from that era otherwise they all turn into mythological names and not factual names backed by verifiable facts.

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  30. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Are the tribes u talk about written on some stone relics from that era? or these are written on paper copies or tree bark? If so, in what time were these written?

    I think the authenticity of these tribes can only be confirmed by archaeological artifacts from that era otherwise they all turn into mythological names and not factual names backed by verifiable facts.
    Friend,

    For an answer kindly read first few posts.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  31. #39
    Answer to many of the questions raised here can be found in the following book;

    "The Open Secret of India, Israel and Mexico; from Genesis to Revelations!"

    http://books.google.com/books?id=lxj...20rama&f=false


    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

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  33. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    So far as the uses of the words 'Arya' and 'Dasyu' are concerned, they are used in the ethnic sense in the Rigveda. But in post Rig vedic literature which had been composed after the Aryans had arrived in India, the use of the word meaning of 'Arya' changed to denote 'Master.'

    According to Panini (III.1.103) 'Arya' means swami i.e. 'master' as well as 'vaisya'. So when Arya is not used in the sense of 'Vaisya', it denotes the first three varanas i.e. Brahmin, Kshatriya and Vaishya--not because they are Aryan in blood, but because they are 'masters', that is to say, 'freemen', and not slaves.

    Thanks.
    I think this is not true.
    The points are:
    1. Have they really found hand written things(books of ancient times), written by Pannini himeself? Most of the old work in India that we can find today is in continuation of the something that has no verifiable facts. Either such facts were destroyed in ancient past or were in oral tradition.
    2. Again after 4 th BC, India has gone through a surge of religious life, which got hold of people's lives and never allowed them to think out of box. If u study religions, history and philosophy of the world, you will find that religions have made "Bat ka Batangar", they have hidden scientific facts from people and created "history" as they please and as it makes them happy. There are lot of good documentaries about it on youtube just type "religion, science, philosophy" , u will find lot of such documentaries, which show the facts and not just some words from thin air.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; October 7th, 2013 at 04:58 AM.

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