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  1. #1

    The British Imperialism in India: A Boon or Curse

    Friends,

    Some people believe it to be a boon whereas others believe it to be bane. So There is no unanimity on the role of the Imperialist occupation of India by the British which started with the battle of Plassey fought in 1757 AD and lasted in 1947 AD. The candid views/opinions of the participants on this contentious issue are invited.

    Thanks.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  2. #2
    To start with we can take the post no 28 given below from the thread on Jat history :Thread: Victoria Cross Winner - Company Havildar-Major Chheluram

    For the convenience of the readers the same is reproduced below :

    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Dear Dr, Rajpal, we can take out "Bal ki Khal" but the fact remains that we are talking in "English", the clothes that u are wearing were designed in west, then why be hypocritical. We can read as many writers as we can but we have to acknowledge good and bad facts that happened due to the presence of people coming to Bharat.
    Bharat has seen such a big inflow of cultures and civilizations that we can not rule anyone out. Was the muslim rule any better then rule by Britishers? Was the rule by small kings in ancient India any better then rule by Britishers? Was the rule by hindu religious identities any better then rule by Britishers?

    So, if we look history in wider perspective, i think coming of British was not that bad as shown by blinded nationalistic identities?

    The basic question we have to answer at this level is:
    Have we ever given value to human life?
    I think not? As soon as Britishers left, people again started fighting in the name of religion and Bharat was divided in the name of religion and other identities.
    From Kashmir to Afghanistan to Pakistan and north west of India we come from the same tribes yet we in the worst position in terms of peace in the region, we might follow different religions but we write the same family names and we share same common tribal blood that has been passed on by our ancestors, yet we are still fighting. In this region religion still plays a major role in governing peoples lives and these people are driven by blind faith in the name of religion.
    What is '' blinded nationalistic identities?'' new phrase beyond comprehension.

    Moreover, the sweeping comments regarding the goodness of the British Imperialism do not present true nature of the colonial regime.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  3. #3
    These "some people" are those who are the products of convent schools where education is rendered on the pattern set by Lord Macaulay whose sole aim was to destroy our history, culture, languages, and religion, which is necessary to keep a nation slave forever. Only negative aspects of our history are taught in today's school textbooks. Not only in India, colonial empire has done havoc in other places also - African countries, Latin America, and many Asian nations. Everywhere, the local masses revolted and finally the colonial powers had to leave, except where the local population was wiped out through bullets (such as Australia, New Zealand etc.).

    It is a wrong notion that modern scientific advancement in our country has been possible because of foreign rule or the English language. The economic impact of foreign rule has been phenomenal because much of our wealth was looted. During Moghul period, until Aurangzeb's rule, India's share in world trade was more than 17%. At the time of Independence, it shrank to just 2%.
    तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय

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  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    These "some people" are those who are the products of convent schools where education is rendered on the pattern set by Lord Macaulay whose sole aim was to destroy our history, culture, languages, and religion, which is necessary to keep a nation slave forever. Only negative aspects of our history are taught in today's school textbooks. Not only in India, colonial empire has done havoc in other places also - African countries, Latin America, and many Asian nations. Everywhere, the local masses revolted and finally the colonial powers had to leave, except where the local population was wiped out through bullets (such as Australia, New Zealand etc.).

    It is a wrong notion that modern scientific advancement in our country has been possible because of foreign rule or the English language. The economic impact of foreign rule has been phenomenal because much of our wealth was looted. During Moghul period, until Aurangzeb's rule, India's share in world trade was more than 17%. At the time of Independence, it shrank to just 2%.


    Do u think, India is a free country? Can u tell me where did India get its rules and regulations? We still have rules and regulations which were made during ancient times. Today also India is ruled by politicians all of whom have some sort of criminal record.
    The entire nation is running on:
    1: Local development due to foreign investment. (Making housing projects, making special economic zones, etc.), this foreign investment is due to cheap human labour.
    2: Rising middle class and movement of people across India although the middle class is the most exploited class of the Indian society. Their working conditions are not good, they do not have public facilities (Public facilities are pathetic and poorest, pollution, crime, jammed roads, etc form the part of their daily life.)

    Local population in any place throughout the world were always fighting the oppressors in one form or other, whether they were local rulers or outside rulers.

    As per the trade during Mughals. Ancient trade in north west of India was carried through routes like Silk Route, sea and other mountain passes in the Himalayas, which during the mughal rule and before them were controlled by muslim rulers and at that point of time in history the fight was about religion, as Islam started spreading around 8th century AD.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; July 24th, 2013 at 07:05 PM.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    Do u think, India is a free country? Can u tell me where did India get its rules and regulations? We still have rules and regulations which were made during ancient times. Today also India is ruled by politicians all of whom have some sort of criminal record.
    The entire nation is running on:
    1: Local development due to foreign investment. (Making housing projects, making special economic zones, etc.), this foreign investment is due to cheap human labour.
    2: Rising middle class and movement of people across India although the middle class is the most exploited class of the Indian society. Their working conditions are not good, they do not have public facilities (Public facilities are pathetic and poorest, pollution, crime, jammed roads, etc form the part of their daily life.)

    Local population in any place throughout the world were always fighting the oppressors in one form of the other, whether they were local rulers or outside rulers.

    As per the trade during Mughals. Ancient trade in north west of India was carried through routes like Silk Route, sea and other mountain passes in the Himalayas, which during the mughal rule and before them were controlled by muslim rulers and at that point of time in history the fight was about religion, as Islam started spreading around 8th century AD.

    In ancient times, culture, religion, etc formed the links for trade in today´s context education, technology, logical reasoning, dialog will form the base for present and future trade.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    In ancient times, culture, religion, etc formed the links for trade in today´s context education, technology, logical reasoning, dialog will form the base for present and future trade.
    Do u think India is not a slave nation? In the name of nation and religion people living in the north west of India have been getting killed for ages. Even today the scenario is the same.
    I can give u a simple example of slave mentality, India is second largest interms of population and Indians love cricket, for more then a decade a single player was the focus of the entire game: " Sachin Tendulkar". If he played good then Indian team will win, otherwise the team will loose the game. Entire media was applauding him. The cricket team is not made of one player and there are millions of cricket playing people in India, are there no better players then Tendulkar? There must have been hundreds of players better then him but the main point is "Idol Worship" has closed the minds of people and made them into real life zombies, where they could not look beyond one "Idol" and the entire nation becomes slave to such a mindset. We can see the same trend in politics, Why does everyone every time look at Nehru Gandhi family for leadership, if they have to lead the nation, they have to come out themself. This thing is happening in every phase of life in Indian mentality.

    This mindset is leading to waste of present day youth and blocking their path of innovation and progress. If the change has to come, it has to come at every level of society and through every individual.
    This mind set is one of the reasons we lack in innovation based research and technologies because we are still mental slaves to motion less, speech less Idols.
    Last edited by maddhan1979; July 24th, 2013 at 07:06 PM.

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  9. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by maddhan1979 View Post
    In ancient times, culture, religion, etc formed the links for trade in today´s context education, technology, logical reasoning, dialog will form the base for present and future trade.
    I agree 100% to what you have written.

    May I add that the rich history of India especially it's art and indigenous religions, is a major attraction not only for some Indians (more so for the educated ones, educated in the real sense) as well as for tourists/visitors from abroad. This too brings in business/trade.
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

  10. #8
    I am a product of convent school education and western education. Are you suggesting I am anti nationalist, anti jat culture, anti local language etc? If so, you are entitled to the views and I do not mind.



    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    These "some people" are those who are the products of convent schools where education is rendered on the pattern set by Lord their own girl child whose sole aim was to destroy our history, culture, languages, and religion, which is necessary to keep a nation slave forever. Only negative aspects of our history are taught in today's school textbooks. Not only in India, colonial empire has done havoc in other places also - African countries, Latin America, and many Asian nations. Everywhere, the local masses revolted and finally the colonial powers had to leave, except where the local population was wiped out through bullets (such as Australia, New Zealand etc.).

    It is a wrong notion that modern scientific advancement in our country has been possible because of foreign rule or the English language. The economic impact of foreign rule has been phenomenal because much of our wealth was looted. During Moghul period, until Aurangzeb's rule, India's share in world trade was more than 17%. At the time of Independence, it shrank to just 2%.
    Last edited by urmiladuhan; November 9th, 2013 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Added line.
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

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  12. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by urmiladuhan View Post
    I am a product of convent school education and western education. Are you suggesting I am anti nationalist, anti jat culture, anti local language etc? If so, you are entitled to the views and I do not mind.
    Fact of the matter is that all nationalists were educated in modern schools and not in Madarsa or Ashrams of some Sadhus. Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Subhash, Jinnah.... and 100s of them got their education in most modern schools. I can not think of even one prominent nationalist who was educated in the ashram of some pundit in Kashi or Haridwar.

    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

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  14. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    Fact of the matter is that all nationalists were educated in modern schools and not in Madarsa or Ashrams of some Sadhus. Gandhi, Nehru, Patel, Subhash, Jinnah.... and 100s of them got their education in most modern schools. I can not think of even one prominent nationalist who was educated in the ashram of some pundit in Kashi or Haridwar.

    RK^2
    Friend,

    Swami Dayanand Saraswati and Swami Vivekanand neither attended a Public School run by the British and nor were less nationalist to anyone listed above.

    This was so because 'the modern schools' run by the British Government aid were nurseries opened to teach patriotism or nationalism to Indians. It was by default that the above quoted persons and many more grew up nationalists by default on account of their own likings and dislike of the foreign rule.

    Thanks and regards,
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  15. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    convent schools where education is rendered on the pattern set by Lord Macaulay whose sole aim was to destroy our history, culture, languages, and religion, which is necessary to keep a nation slave forever. Only negative aspects of our history are taught in today's school textbooks. Not only in India, colonial empire has done havoc in other places also - African countries, Latin America, and many Asian nations. Everywhere, the local masses revolted and finally the colonial powers had to leave, except where the local population was wiped out through bullets (such as Australia, New Zealand etc.).

    It is a wrong notion that modern scientific advancement in our country has been possible because of foreign rule or the English language. The economic impact of foreign rule has been phenomenal because much of our wealth was looted. During Moghul period, until Aurangzeb's rule, India's share in world trade was more than 17%. At the time of Independence, it shrank to just 2%.
    I agree to this.
    जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।

    दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे

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  17. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by dndeswal View Post
    These "some people" are those who are the products of convent schools where education is rendered on the pattern set by Lord Macaulay whose sole aim was to destroy our history, culture, languages, and religion, which is necessary to keep a nation slave forever. Only negative aspects of our history are taught in today's school textbooks. Not only in India, colonial empire has done havoc in other places also - African countries, Latin America, and many Asian nations. Everywhere, the local masses revolted and finally the colonial powers had to leave, except where the local population was wiped out through bullets (such as Australia, New Zealand etc.).

    It is a wrong notion that modern scientific advancement in our country has been possible because of foreign rule or the English language. The economic impact of foreign rule has been phenomenal because much of our wealth was looted. During Moghul period, until Aurangzeb's rule, India's share in world trade was more than 17%. At the time of Independence, it shrank to just 2%.
    An eye opener post for those who do not understand the exploitation of India at the hands of the British colonists.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  18. #13
    Agreed that India had 17% world trade share when British took over. Agreed that British took away raw material. However, were only British responsible for our trade downfall? Industrial revolution came in Europe because of their own scientific and technical innovations. Production became many times more efficient in Europe than in India. Simple laws of commerce dictated that goods be produced where cost was lower. If we look at the history of movement of industrial hubs, it has been happening all the time. production cost dictates the location and nothing else. British established more universities and medical colleges in 100 years than we Indians did in our entire history. British built more pakka roads and railway tracks than we did. Compare their real rule of 90 years with our 66 years.

    Agreed that British took away our money. How about our own people parking their money in Swiss banks? Ever thought of British officers who left England and lived in circuit houses where there were hardly any civic facilities? Ever thought of Andaman Nicobar Islands ? Could we have these Islands without British ? Ever visited Ross island, How British young officers perished there? Who stopped Indians to take ships out to unknown places and put their claims? How many Delhites will like to be posted in Guhana or even in Hapur ?

    RK^2
    Last edited by rkumar; November 9th, 2013 at 08:43 PM.
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

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  20. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    Agreed that India had 17% world trade share when British took over. Agreed that British took away raw material. However, were only British responsible for our trade downfall? Industrial revolution came in Europe because of their own scientific and technical innovations. Production became many times more efficient in Europe than in India. Simple laws of commerce dictated that goods be produced where cost was lower. If we look at the history of movement of industrial hubs, it has been happening all the time. production cost dictates the location and nothing else. British established more universities and medical colleges in 100 years than we Indians did in our entire history. British built more pakka roads and railway tracks than we did. Compare their real rule of 90 years with our 66 years.

    Agreed that British took away our money. How about our own people parking their money in Swiss banks? Ever thought of British officers who left England and lived in circuit houses where there were hardly any civic facilities? Ever thought of Andaman Nicobar Islands ? Could we have these Islands without British ? Ever visited Ross island, How British young officers perished there? Who stopped Indians to take ships out to unknown places and put their claims? How many Delhites will like to be posted in Guhana or even in Hapur ?

    RK^2

    And who stopped the lavishly living Indian kings from sending missions like that of Christopher Colombus? Historically, Indians, I think, have been somewhat averse to leaving their comfort zone i.e., their motherland. Others come and discover them rather than other way around. Perhaps, that is why Indian history turned out the way it turned out.
    Attention seekers and attention getters are two different class of people.

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  22. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    Agreed that India had 17% world trade share when British took over. Agreed that British took away raw material. However, were only British responsible for our trade downfall? Industrial revolution came in Europe because of their own scientific and technical innovations. Production became many times more efficient in Europe than in India. Simple laws of commerce dictated that goods be produced where cost was lower. If we look at the history of movement of industrial hubs, it has been happening all the time. production cost dictates the location and nothing else. British established more universities and medical colleges in 100 years than we Indians did in our entire history. British built more pakka roads and railway tracks than we did. Compare their real rule of 90 years with our 66 years.

    Agreed that British took away our money. How about our own people parking their money in Swiss banks? Ever thought of British officers who left England and lived in circuit houses where there were hardly any civic facilities? Ever thought of Andaman Nicobar Islands ? Could we have these Islands without British ? Ever visited Ross island, How British young officers perished there? Who stopped Indians to take ships out to unknown places and put their claims? How many Delhites will like to be posted in Guhana or even in Hapur ?

    RK^2
    Friend,

    How many colleges and Universities were established by the British Crown in India till 1947 and what is their number today?

    How many factories and Big, medium or small industries were established by the British Government in India till 1947 and what is their number today?

    Coming to provision of Railway and Road transport, one cannot fail to understand that this was done not for welfare of the Indians but for using these facilities to serve their colonial interests like ensuring smooth flow of Indian Raw Material to ports and also making provision for easy transportation of military to quell the trouble, if any in vast stretch of Indian occupied empire !

    The British colonial system sucked the economic and cultural fabric of the nation and showed and nourished the seeds of communalism which ultimately led to partition of India. For understanding this phenomenon kindly go through records of the Bengal Asiatic Society or the foundation of the Muslim League in 1906 with provision of separate representation of Hindus and Muslims in local self bodies provided by Government of India Act 1909. Divide and rule policy and this proportional representation continued to be widened subsequently till the British did what they wanted, the tearing off of India in three parts before granting Independence in 1948.

    Not to speak of visiting, not everyone has heard the name of Ross Islands.

    But it is certain that it was a bane for the Indians to be ruled by the British. The Britishers suffered at the places mentioned by you because they were always in quest of looting natural resources and wealth wherever they could lay their hands.

    Swami Dayanand Saraswati has said in this regard:

    VIDESHI ACCHHI SE ACHHI SARKAR SE SWADESHI BURI SE BURI SARKAR ACHHI HOTI HAI !!
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  23. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friends,

    Some people believe it to be a boon whereas others believe it to be bane. So There is no unanimity on the role of the Imperialist occupation of India by the British which started with the battle of Plassey fought in 1757 AD and lasted in 1947 AD. The candid views/opinions of the participants on this contentious issue are invited.
    Thanks.
    Rajpal ji, I didn't read the Chheluram thread but since you are asking for opinions, here is mine. I think India would have been better off if the Britishers ruled for another couple of decades. I am sure they would have done better job than our present day politicians.

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  25. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by VPannu View Post
    Rajpal ji, I didn't read the Chheluram thread but since you are asking for opinions, here is mine. I think India would have been better off if the Britishers ruled for another couple of decades. I am sure they would have done better job than our present day politicians.
    Friend,

    I beg to differ with you and submit my views on your stipulation as under for your kind perusal please:

    In historical studies, comparisons are made among only contemporaries. Hence, the comparison between the freedom fighters and the founding fathers of the Indian nation in early years of freedom and the leaders of over six decades later does not sound valid. Moreover, we must remember the wealth drain theory adopted by the British in India treating it as a colony. Had they stayed for more time they would have made India poorer with each passing day.

    Moreover, we have to keep in mind why did the british free India. In fact their policy of 'divide and rule' had pushed the country in a state of anarchy and chaos and even the ever loyal Indian Navy and Air Force showed signs of patriotism. They had no means to bring more military recruited from Britain and Europe because of their weak financial position after the World War II. The INA trials in the Red Fort further spoiled the position of the imperialists and a wave of anger among all sections of the society swept against them.

    In other words, if we take an objective view of the conditions in 1947 when riot flames were engulfing the country, bureaucracy and military stood divided on religious lines and lawlessness caused by varying declarations made by the British regarding two nation theory, the position granted to the 600 odd native states either join India or Pakistan or to remain free from both of them, etc are some of the features that plunged the country in the state of anarchy. These factors in addition to some others led the British to their idea to leave India safe and sound at the earliest possible. That is what caused them preponement of the earlier declared date of granting freedom from June 1948 to 15th August 1947. So they left immediately.

    All these facts do not seem to indicate that had British stayed here for some more decades, they could have done better than our leaders did accomplish to make the truncated India a great country even in a very short span of time after the attainment of freedom. Their achievements during first two three years are indeed second to none.

    Moreover, there is no place for 'ifs' and 'buts' in history because whatever happened in the past is history and the British were made to go compelled by the circumstances beyond their control.

    That is all !!

    Thanks.
    Last edited by DrRajpalSingh; July 25th, 2013 at 07:50 PM.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  27. #18
    The British imperialists had indirectly helped in rise of Indian awakening or renaissance as the exploitation and wealth drain led the English knowing Indians to lead the social and cultural emancipation movements which ultimately merged with Freedom movement in the long run.

    The means of transport and communication like development of railways and roads, the coming of press and news papers, telegraphs, introduction of English as medium of education etc. indirectly helped growth of nationalism among the Indian people.

    These and many other measures introduced by the British to strengthen their Indian Empire, by default came handy to Indian patriots to beat their expoliters with their own stick.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  29. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friends,

    Some people believe it to be a boon whereas others believe it to be bane. So There is no unanimity on the role of the Imperialist occupation of India by the British which started with the battle of Plassey fought in 1757 AD and lasted in 1947 AD. The candid views/opinions of the participants on this contentious issue are invited.

    Thanks.
    An interesting Topic based on hypothesis. Some people do believe that English rule was good for India. The reason they often give (and all these arguments are taught in English books) are :

    1. Brit made India a political entity.
    2. They brought science to India. They brought Rails, Roads and Industries.
    3. They brought English language and western education.
    4. They civilised Indians (claimed by English and taught in the text books prescribed by them).

    People argue that if there would have been no English Raj in India, India would have still have been a country of snake charmers. Poverty would have been worse than Africa. Leave these alone there wouldn't have been any such country as India.


    Lets have a look at some of the arguments one by one:

    Education & Poverty :
    In their own words (Lord Macaulay) :
    I have travelled across the length and breadth of India and I have not seen one person who is a beggar, who is a thief, such wealth I have seen in this country, such high moral values, people of such calibre, that I do not think we would ever conquer this country, unless we break the very backbone of this nation, which is her spiritual and cultural heritage, and, therefore, I propose that we replace her old and ancient education system, her culture, for if the Indians think that all that is foreign and English is good and greater than their own, they will lose their self esteem, their native culture and they will become what we want them, a truly dominated nation.

    and it was then they implemented their own education system. The objective was to train us to be slaves and break our confidence, make us believe that Britishers are superior. They started their own convent school which were religious school run by nuns and priests who objective was to destroy our culture and religion. In convent schools speaking in Hindi was a punishable offense and is still in some of them. Even till now some Indians proudly claim that their son/daughter are convent school educated. So that was the time when we had no poor, no beggar. Compare this to when they left us. India was a country of beggars.

    Infrastructure :
    There is no doubt that they build all this infrastructure for their own needs not for our development. They build these roads and rails to effectively travel across India for better administration and to extend their own rule. There are some who argue that there would be no rail till now if there was no British Raj. It is hard to believe as there are other countries like Iran where there was no British Raj and who was culturally similar to us and look at them now they are considered an Industrial Nation now. There was no British rule in China and it was way behind us in 1940s and look at them now. They have one of the fastest rail in the world.

    No entity by the name of India :
    Well this is true that there might not have been a nation by the name of India. But that also doesn't mean that there would have been 1000s small nations. The boundary of India in the past kept changing. But that was same for everyone else? Historically there was no nation as Iran and Afghanistan. After the fall of Persian empire and Ottoman empire countries reorganised themselves and came up with new entities. Its hypothetical but culturally we are similar to North Pakistani and north west India and North Pakistan could have been one country. There wouldn't have been any partition based on religion. We wouldn't have lost that many people in partition. There probably wouldn't have been a border dispute with China. This region is one of the most fertile in the world and it could have been one of the richest even now.

    Muslim Rule :
    Some argue we might still have been ruled by Mughals. Its hard to believe as Mughals were very weak by 18th century and in Sikhs and Marathas were stronger.

    But perhaps before we start this debate we need to understand the basic first that it was a foreign rule and we were no more than slave. If you were given two options live in Golden palace and be a slave for ever or live in open fields with not enough to eat I am sure all of us with little self respect with choose the latter. Why did Bhagat Singh laid his life. Just to breathe in "free air". Why did Netaji struggled and made an army against English raj? Because he couldn't see our motherland under Foreign Rule. It was a time when we treated like second class citizens in our own country. We couldn't enter their settlements , couldn't travel in first class. couldn't enter their pubs, couldn't be employed to highest ranks in administration, military and any other services. It was a time when in courts a white men's statement was worth more than all of Indians together.

    I can happily live under congress goons for another 56 years but not a single minute as a slave under foreign rule.
    जागरूक ती अज्ञानी नहीं बनाया जा सके, स्वाभिमानी का अपमान नहीं करा जा सके , निडर ती दबाया नहीं जा सके भाई नुए सामाजिक क्रांति एक बार आ जे तो उसती बदला नहीं जा सके ---ज्याणी जाट।

    दोस्त हो या दुश्मन, जाट दोनुआ ने १०० साल ताईं याद राखा करे

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