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Thread: Indians; poor record keepers

  1. #1

    Indians; poor record keepers

    For quite sometime I have been wondering as to why we don't have reliable historic records ? We don't hae to go and look too far to understand this problem. Let us analyse our own habits of record keeping. Most of us belonging to my generation and before don't even know our correct date of birth as no one bothered to keep the record. People from my father's generation did not even know on which date they got married and when their parents died. Rarely we conserve the artifacts of our parents and grandparents. We have no respect for old buildings in villages and allow them decay. This much about our personal and local history.

    Now let me tell you all about the level of common people about historical buildings. There is a village called "Banti Khera", about 7-10 km from Shamli. There is an old Mughal period tomb in the village. As a child I visited the village. Everybody in the village told me that the tomb was constructed in a singe night by "Ghosts". I too believed the story as a child.

    We have total contempt for record keeping and this is why we face problems when it comes to knowing the right history. Moreover, there is a saying, " Beeti Tahi bisar de, aage ki sudh leie". This simply amounts to neglecting anything which has already happened.

    RK^2
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

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  3. #2
    आप ने महत्वपूर्ण बात कही है मुझे इसके एक दो कारण नज़र आते सबसे पहला उस वक़्त ज्यादातर लोगो को पढ़ना और लिखना आता ही नहीं था तो रिकॉर्ड कैसे रखते और जिनको लिखना पढ़ना आता था उन्होंने अपनी महिमामंडन के चलते जानकारियाँ लिखित में रखी और मुहं जबानी ही समयानुसार बात कही और अपने ज्ञान को अगली पीढ़ी तक नहीं पहुँचाया|
    मीठे बोल बोलिये क्योंकि अल्फाजों में जान होती है,
    ये समुंदर के वह मोती हैं जिनसे इंसानों की पहचान होती है।।

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  5. #3
    Blame the pandits. They never let the education to be freely passed on to others.

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  7. #4
    We must remember that the oldest book in the world, the Rigveda, belongs to India.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  9. #5
    The record of the concept of Dhamma as visualised by Emperor Asoka Maurya and his Edicts are second to none in the world.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  10. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    The record of the concept of Dhamma as visualised by Emperor Asoka Maurya and his Edicts are second to none in the world.

    Good to know about this record keeping but today I think we are nowhere in record keeping as compared to developed countries. A quick look at the National Archives website(http://nationalarchives.nic.in/Default.aspx) tell us so. I just did some comparison between National Archives of Australia(http://www.naa.gov.au/) with National Archives of India. After comparison I will give ZERO to National Archives of India.

    National Archives of India website is in so poor condition that even a naive web developer would not appreciate its home page. Here, I am just talking about look and feel of website. Looks like website development is done by someone who is learning to build web pages. In fact a learner would not leave so much junk(like &nbsp) on the page.

    Now coming to point of functionality, again I would give a ZERO to National Archives of India because website is of no use. Search gives you zero results. No good functionality, almost negligible digitization of records, no features. I wonder if the phone numbers(Contact Us) mentioned on the website are correct. It's a dog's breakfast!!!!!!!!

    Only solution to such problems is to change bureaucracy. Generalization in bureaucracy is killing us!!
    Last edited by vicky84; May 5th, 2013 at 05:28 AM.

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  12. #7
    Shri R.Kumar has rightly nailed the issue by starting the thread

    to arouse the interest and concern of history lovers about the dire

    need of available sources of information to be kept in good condition

    in various archives, private and government both.

    This is a gigantic project and needs immediate planning and proper execution

    so that both literary and archaeological sources are not lost to posterity !!
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

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  14. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post

    This is a gigantic project and needs immediate planning and proper execution

    so that both literary and archaeological sources are not lost to posterity !!
    That is right, but immediate planning and proper execution needs interested people like you. Not the uninterested people who landed there because a minister ordered so!
    Last edited by vicky84; May 5th, 2013 at 09:55 AM.

  15. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by vicky84 View Post
    That is right, but immediate planning and proper execution needs interested people like you. Not the uninterested people who landed there because a minister ordered so!
    Friend,

    This is not so. There is no dearth of well qualified and dedicated professionals managing our archival sources but the work is so enormous that it requires continued inflow of funds and latest techniques of record keeping that are not coming and we are lagging behind others in this fund.

    The planning and execution makes a difference as is revealed by the records available and kept at Nehru Memorial Museum and Library,Teenmurati Bhawan, Delhi. They are second to none in preservation and upkeep.

    Thanks
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  16. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    This is not so. There is no dearth of well qualified and dedicated professionals managing our archival sources but the work is so enormous that it requires continued inflow of funds and latest techniques of record keeping that are not coming and we are lagging behind others in this fund.

    The planning and execution makes a difference as is revealed by the records available and kept at Nehru Memorial Museum and Library,Teenmurati Bhawan, Delhi. They are second to none in preservation and upkeep.

    Thanks
    There may be some qualified and dedicated professional managing archival sources but in overall it lacks a practice of professionalism. For example, National Archives can be extended to Service Records, Family History etc. Even with the available resources, you can do much better than available mess I have seen on their website. I do not agree with your statement about professionals working in National archives are professionals If they are so dedicated professionals then you should not see so much mess on the current website. The mess on website reflects the professionalism in the organisation.
    Last edited by vicky84; May 5th, 2013 at 10:22 AM.

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  18. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    We must remember that the oldest book in the world, the Rigveda, belongs to India.
    I believe the OP is talking about 'written' records. Isnt the Rig Veda a collection of religious hymns/poems passed verbally from one generation to another? When were they actually written down? In the Gupta period?
    Pagdi Sambhal Jatta..!

  19. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by swaich View Post
    I believe the OP is talking about 'written' records. Isnt the Rig Veda a collection of religious hymns/poems passed verbally from one generation to another? When were they actually written down? In the Gupta period?
    my dear friend, one has to tell the story n then u write.
    Last edited by AnkurMalik; May 5th, 2013 at 12:42 PM.

  20. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by rkumar View Post
    For quite sometime I have been wondering as to why we don't have reliable historic records ? We don't hae to go and look too far to understand this problem. Let us analyse our own habits of record keeping. Most of us belonging to my generation and before don't even know our correct date of birth as no one bothered to keep the record. People from my father's generation did not even know on which date they got married and when their parents died. Rarely we conserve the artifacts of our parents and grandparents. We have no respect for old buildings in villages and allow them decay. This much about our personal and local history.

    Now let me tell you all about the level of common people about historical buildings. There is a village called "Banti Khera", about 7-10 km from Shamli. There is an old Mughal period tomb in the village. As a child I visited the village. Everybody in the village told me that the tomb was constructed in a singe night by "Ghosts". I too believed the story as a child.

    We have total contempt for record keeping and this is why we face problems when it comes to knowing the right history. Moreover, there is a saying, " Beeti Tahi bisar de, aage ki sudh leie". This simply amounts to neglecting anything which has already happened.

    RK^2
    I just posted something on Jat history group and thought I would share. The context is that Ved, Puran, Mahabharat were created and written in 3rd - 5th century CE during Gupt kaal. But Indian history has a much better at recording and referencing these texts than we give them credit and all these examples record Ved, Puran and Mahabharat apart from numerous other fields of study:

    Arthashastra (commonly accepted as dated about 2400 years before present)

    अशा-०१.३.०१
    साम.ऋग्.यजुर्.वेदास् त्रयस् त्रयी ॥
    अशा-०१.३.०२
    अथर्व.वेद.इतिहास.वेदौ च वेदाः ॥
    अशा-०१.३.०३
    शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दो.विचितिर् ज्योतिषम् इति च_अङ्गानि ॥

    Chapter III
    THE three Vedas, Sama, Rik and Yajus, constitute the triple Vedas. These together with Atharvaveda and the Itihasaveda are (known as) the Vedas.

    Siksha (Phonetics), Kalpa (ceremonial injunctions), Vyakarana (grammar), Nirukta (glossarial explanation of obscure Vedic terms), Chandas (Prosody), and Astronomy form the Angas.


    Griha Sutra (dated about 2500 years before present)
    ADHYAYA III KANDIKA 4.

    1. He satiates the deities: 'Pragapati, Brahman, the Vedas, the gods, the Rishis, all metres, the word
    Om ...

    2. 4. 'Sumantu, Gaimini, Vaisampayana, Paila, the Sutras, the Bhashyas, the Bharata, the Mahabharata, the teachers of law ...



    Chandogya Upnishad (commonly accepted as dated to about 2800-2700 Before Present)

    Fourth Khand
    Om,’ superior to the three Vedas, the immortal refuge

    1.Om! One should reverence the Udgītha as this syllable, for one sings the loud chant [beginning] with ‘Om.’

    The further explanation thereof [is as follows].—

    2. Verily, the gods, when they were afraid of death, took refuge in the threefold knowledge [i.e. the three Vedas]. They covered (acchādayan) themselves with meters. Because they covered themselves with these, therefore the meters are called chandas.

    3. Death saw them there, in the Ṛic, in the Sāman, in the Yajus, just as one might see a fish in water. When they found this out, they arose out of the Ṛic, out of the Sāman, out of the Yajus, and took refuge in sound.

    4. Verily, when one finishes an Ṛic, he sounds out ‘Om’; similarly a Sāman; similarly a Yajus. This sound is that syllable.1 It is immortal, fearless. By taking refuge in it the gods became immortal, fearless.

    5. He who pronounces the syllable, knowing it thus, takes refuge in that syllable, in the immortal, fearless sound. Since the gods became immortal by taking refuge in it, therefore he becomes immortal.


    Seventh Prapathak
    First Khund

    1. Om! ‘Teach me, Sir!’ — with these words Nārada came to Sanatkumāra.

    To him he then said: ‘Come to me with what you know. Then I will tell you still further.’

    2. Then he said to him: ‘Sir, I know the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā).
    This, Sir, I know.

    3. Such a one am I, Sir, knowing the sacred sayings (mantra-vid), but not knowing the Soul (Ātman). It has been heard by me from those who are like you, Sir, that he who knows the Soul (Ātman) crosses over sorrow. Such a sorrowing one am I, Sir. Do you, Sir, cause me, who am such a one, to cross over to the other side of sorrow.’

    To him he then said: ‘Verily, whatever you have here learned, verily, that is mere name (nāman).

    4. Verily, a Name are the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā). This is mere Name. Reverence Name.


    Apart from above, I thought this was interesting as well from Arthashastra where students are advised to study lipi:

    अशा-०१.५.०७
    वृत्त.चौल.कर्मा लिपिं संख्यानं च_उपयुञ्जीत ॥
    Having undergone the ceremony of tonsure, the student shall learn the alphabet (lipi) and arithmetic.
    Last edited by nrao; May 6th, 2013 at 12:00 AM. Reason: minor corrections
    - Naveen Rao

  21. #14
    Just a clarification, the word Itihas as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat.

    Quote Originally Posted by nrao View Post
    I just posted something on Jat history group and thought I would share. The context is that Ved, Puran, Mahabharat were created and written in 3rd - 5th century CE during Gupt kaal. But Indian history has a much better at recording and referencing these texts than we give them credit and all these examples record Ved, Puran and Mahabharat apart from numerous other fields of study:

    Arthashastra (commonly accepted as dated about 2400 years before present)

    अशा-०१.३.०१
    साम.ऋग्.यजुर्.वेदास् त्रयस् त्रयी ॥
    अशा-०१.३.०२
    अथर्व.वेद.इतिहास.वेदौ च वेदाः ॥
    अशा-०१.३.०३
    शिक्षा कल्पो व्याकरणं निरुक्तं छन्दो.विचितिर् ज्योतिषम् इति च_अङ्गानि ॥

    Chapter III
    THE three Vedas, Sama, Rik and Yajus, constitute the triple Vedas. These together with Atharvaveda and the Itihasaveda are (known as) the Vedas.

    Siksha (Phonetics), Kalpa (ceremonial injunctions), Vyakarana (grammar), Nirukta (glossarial explanation of obscure Vedic terms), Chandas (Prosody), and Astronomy form the Angas.


    Griha Sutra (dated about 2500 years before present)
    ADHYAYA III KANDIKA 4.

    1. He satiates the deities: 'Pragapati, Brahman, the Vedas, the gods, the Rishis, all metres, the word
    Om ...

    2. 4. 'Sumantu, Gaimini, Vaisampayana, Paila, the Sutras, the Bhashyas, the Bharata, the Mahabharata, the teachers of law ...



    Chandogya Upnishad (commonly accepted as dated to about 2800-2700 Before Present)

    Fourth Khand
    Om,’ superior to the three Vedas, the immortal refuge

    1.Om! One should reverence the Udgītha as this syllable, for one sings the loud chant [beginning] with ‘Om.’

    The further explanation thereof [is as follows].—

    2. Verily, the gods, when they were afraid of death, took refuge in the threefold knowledge [i.e. the three Vedas]. They covered (acchādayan) themselves with meters. Because they covered themselves with these, therefore the meters are called chandas.

    3. Death saw them there, in the Ṛic, in the Sāman, in the Yajus, just as one might see a fish in water. When they found this out, they arose out of the Ṛic, out of the Sāman, out of the Yajus, and took refuge in sound.

    4. Verily, when one finishes an Ṛic, he sounds out ‘Om’; similarly a Sāman; similarly a Yajus. This sound is that syllable.1 It is immortal, fearless. By taking refuge in it the gods became immortal, fearless.

    5. He who pronounces the syllable, knowing it thus, takes refuge in that syllable, in the immortal, fearless sound. Since the gods became immortal by taking refuge in it, therefore he becomes immortal.


    Seventh Prapathak
    First Khund

    1. Om! ‘Teach me, Sir!’ — with these words Nārada came to Sanatkumāra.

    To him he then said: ‘Come to me with what you know. Then I will tell you still further.’

    2. Then he said to him: ‘Sir, I know the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā).
    This, Sir, I know.

    3. Such a one am I, Sir, knowing the sacred sayings (mantra-vid), but not knowing the Soul (Ātman). It has been heard by me from those who are like you, Sir, that he who knows the Soul (Ātman) crosses over sorrow. Such a sorrowing one am I, Sir. Do you, Sir, cause me, who am such a one, to cross over to the other side of sorrow.’

    To him he then said: ‘Verily, whatever you have here learned, verily, that is mere name (nāman).

    4. Verily, a Name are the Rig-Veda, the Yajur-Veda, the Sāma-Veda, the Atharva-Veda as the fourth, Legend and Ancient Lore (itihāsa-purāṇa) as the fifth, the Veda of the Vedas [i.e. Grammar], Rites for the Manes, Mathematics, Augury (daiva), Chronology, Logic, Polity, the Science of the Gods (deva-vidyā), the Science of Sacred Knowledge (brahma-vidyā), Demonology (bhūta-vidyā), Military Science (kṣatra-vidyā), Astrology (nakṣatra-vidyā), the Science of Snake-charming, and the Fine Arts (sarpa-devajana-vidyā). This is mere Name. Reverence Name.


    Apart from above, I thought this was interesting as well from Arthashastra where students are advised to study lipi:

    अशा-०१.५.०७
    वृत्त.चौल.कर्मा लिपिं संख्यानं च_उपयुञ्जीत ॥
    Having undergone the ceremony of tonsure, the student shall learn the alphabet (lipi) and arithmetic.
    - Naveen Rao

  22. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by nrao View Post
    Just a clarification, the word Itihas as used in ancient texts is used for Ramayan and Mahabharat.

    Kindly share the base/source of this definition of the ancient Itihas please.
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  23. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Friend,

    This is not so. There is no dearth of well qualified and dedicated professionals managing our archival sources but the work is so enormous that it requires continued inflow of funds and latest techniques of record keeping that are not coming and we are lagging behind others in this fund.

    The planning and execution makes a difference as is revealed by the records available and kept at Nehru Memorial Museum and Library,Teenmurati Bhawan, Delhi. They are second to none in preservation and upkeep.

    Thanks
    Dear Rajpal Ji,

    Ask any SBI internet banking user (so called the largest PSU bank in profits/volume/branches and almost every criteria),they don't have transactional records prior 01 April 2010, i believe they've no dearth of funds/latest techniques. what to talk about other core government departments.

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  25. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by ssgoyat View Post
    Dear Rajpal Ji,

    Ask any SBI internet banking user (so called the largest PSU bank in profits/volume/branches and almost every criteria),they don't have transactional records prior 01 April 2010, i believe they've no dearth of funds/latest techniques. what to talk about other core government departments.
    Thanks friend for the information.

    But I think we are talking here about historical records and their upkeep and maintenance !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  26. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRajpalSingh View Post
    Thanks friend for the information.

    But I think we are talking here about historical records and their upkeep and maintenance !
    But I think lethargic attitude, Quality & lack of professionalism among govt employees is not restricted to History deptt. only, though there are plenty of funds available for upkeep & maintenace, and latest technology available.

    Few more success stories are: IRCTC website, UIDAI (cards not reaching to applicants even after years), e passport etc...

    eg from today's news: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/19927956.cms

    Here, they don't even bother to update the requisite documents required on websites. How long does it take to update a website?

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  28. #19
    Startling revelations indeed !
    History is best when created, better when re-constructed and worst when invented.

  29. #20
    Much might be known about the history of kings, but very little is known about local village history. Its all vague. Very few of us know when our village was founded and who were the first settlers. Very few of us know about our own 5-6 generation details. I have seen old beautiful houses being demolished to build new box like ones. Old artistc doors thrown out. Antique wooden box of grand mother finding no place in house. Gone is gone. At least at personal level we should start saving old artifacts of the family and keep them in some sort of family museum. May be each village has a small museum where village artifacts can be kept safely. Do our kids know how Mussal and Okhli used to look like? Do they know how our grand mother used to spin and make bundles of cotton thread? Most of the home and agriculture tools of even my generation are gone. Very few kids know how the "rahat" used to look like. Culture of "Panghat" has disappeared along with "Dole and Naijju".
    There are many paths leading to God, politics is certainly not one of them...

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